BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:36 PM

My father saved a dog's life one time.

The damned dog bit him!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:37 PM

And much of Palestine was paid for by Jews, Robin.

If you dislike Jews, say so. But don't rewrite history.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:42 PM

Of course he dislikes Jews. Probably works for one. Or did.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 07:13 PM

"And much of Palestine was paid for by Jews, Robin. "

Really? please give your sources for such a claim, I would like to improve my education.

And notice, Peace that Marty has now managed to stir up a potential fight between us.. :-) His tactics are working, now having derailed the thread according to the agenda of his Bush Regieme employers.

~~~~~~~
"Of course he dislikes Jews. Probably works for one. Or did. "

So now you are fantasizing that 'The Jews' own Telstra? :-)

~~~~~~~
"If you dislike Jews, say so."

I don't (even though I was brought up a 'Christian' with much 'blaming of the Jews for killing Christ'), but note that Marty has stirred up enough ad hominen against someone for you to believe any crap he says.

~~~~~
"But don't rewrite history. "
So which bits am I rewriting, please, and do give some quotes to substantiate that I am wrong. I dislike ignorance, and have never let my 'Education' interfere with my 'Learning'.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 07:23 PM

Here, Robin, for you to read.


And when you're done, please substantiate your statement that Palestinians have deeds/titles to the lands they claim (and I am sure some do, BTW).

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 08:18 PM

Gee whiz, every time I try to post this, it doesn't take... now if I did have a psychotic dislike of certain ethnic groups I might really believe there was something going on... :-)

"please substantiate your statement that Palestinians have deeds/titles to the lands they claim "

I have never been there - I have only seen this in several documentaries (screened here in Oz on SBS - sourced from overseas countries, such as the USA, Canada, France, Germany, et al) in which the people hold tattered old pieces of paper with official stamps on in a language which I cannot understand but the reporter claims are authentic looking appropriate documents. I don't keep a diary of what I watch and when sorry...

"taken his land for public use" .. and then sold it to 'settlers'? There has been discussion here on Mudcat about the US Govt seizing 'private land for public use', and how many are not happy with it, even though it is 'the law of the land, upheld in the courts'...

I also have no doubt that some people have gone thru the valid 'legal processes' for acquiring the land from someone, but also in passing I must note that in 30's Germany, valid (not my definition!) 'legal processes' existed to strip on a whim Jewish and other citizens of their property without reasonable and just compensation: that didn't make that morally right either!

Thanks for the interesting link - but since I have no real idea who 'owns' CAMERA, although the self explanation on the site gives some hints as to what their agenda is, I will place no more objective believability in their content than any other source of 'alleged absolute truth' without further investigation of the source.

Ah 'Balanced Coverage' - my hackles always rise when I hear that - you hear that from everybody, as if only their personal opinion is the real 'balanced viewpoint' (and of course it's a great 'put down' tactic to discredit all other viewpoints by implication!), including George and Johnny and their mates, and even Goebbels espoused that... Fisk's self opinionated wankerism is known to Australians, it's no secret really anyway - we don't have to rely on just him for a source here anyhow. Here in Oz, we have a program called Media Watch that investigates such things as 'journalistic distortions' and even awards prizes for the most outrageous cases. Unfortunately (and it is often castigated for this!), it also often points out that there are many groups with their own private agendas, whose only interest is to present a viewpoint favourable to just them.


In intellectual discussions that stray into emotional territory, those who are not committed to either side as a matter of 'faith', always get pelted with stones from all others who are.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 08:25 PM

"please substantiate your statement that Palestinians have deeds/titles to the lands they claim "

I knew your answer would be much like that, Robin. I too go by what I read. The only reason I tossed the question back to you was so you could experience the same thing I did. Basically, we all make statements based on what we know. Palestinians write from their perspectives; Israelis from theirs. You from yours and me from mine.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 09:15 PM

This thread started out being about domestic spying and look where it's wound up.

Martin Gibson must be laughing his head off about now. He managed to divert another thread to the topic of his choice.

Way to go, folks!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 10:06 PM

'That said, the remark above about Christian Fundamentalism (in the White House) should be making everyone in America who isn't one start to take a second look at the picture. The Neocons will squash Jews as quickly as Blacks as quickly as other people it perceives 'not to be on board with the program'.

That is not prompted by my dislike of Bush; it is prompted by my dislike of multi-nationals, Neocons and the 'business' agenda in the world right now. I see a day when there will be 5.8 billion slaves and 200,000,000 people ruling. Those people will not all be Americans.

Anyone want to make a small wager of a quarter ($.25) that there is an attempted takeover of the US within the coming year? Response to an attack by terrorists (real or staged): troops in your streets controlling American people; prison camps; suspension of habeas corpus; mass trials and mass convictions. Anyone?'

I said this earlier. That is where I think this stuff is going. Period. It is not just about domestic spying, but also about eroding freedom--it is all beginning to read like Orwell. Hell, we have green-plastic-enclosed cameras recording us on sidewalks here. Computers store that. Heard that soon cars will have to be outfitted with GPS locators. Soon, government will know what we are doing 24/7/365. IMO, it doesn't get much more 'real' than that.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 10:15 PM

OK, times up. It's now time to divert this thread to who will win the super bowl.

After that, we can talk about pizza.

Don, do you like your pizza with onions? There's something that doesn't work for that with me.

What do you think Foolestroupe? Is that all you can get in that godforsaken place where you live is just a frozen pizza with cheese on it?

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 01:50 AM

Gee whiz, every time I try to post this, it doesn't take... now if I did have a psychotic dislike of certain ethnic groups I might really believe there was some conspiracy going on... :-) I could even be mistaken for a Jew in some circumstances... ;-)

Of course calling someone a 'Jew Hater' has been Marty the Arsehole's standard tactic for ages - he uses it indiscriminately - from my experience with him, I believe that he would even use it against other Jews. In intellectual discussions that stray into emotional territory, those who are not committed to either side as a matter of 'faith', always get pelted with stones from all others who are. But don't forget that Marty is just a 'Proxy Slimer' - throwing other people's nasty ideas around to self aggrandise himself by putting others down.

And of course, now I am in the very position of what someone on the receiving end of The US Patriot Act, or Joe McCarthy has had to do - prove my innocence beyond all doubt, even though there is nothing but a malicious attack just to discredit me.

And of course Marty has got you all distracted from the original subject of the thread by waving a highly emotionally charged red herring like a red rag to a bull.

"please substantiate your statement that Palestinians have deeds/titles to the lands they claim "

I have never been there - I have only seen this in documentaries (screened here in Oz on SBS - sourced from overseas countries, such as the USA, Canada, France, Germany, et al) in which the people hold tattered old pieces of paper with official stamps on in a language which I cannot understand but the reporter claims are authentic looking appropriate documents. I don't keep a diary of what I watch and when sorry...

Thanks for the interesting link - but since I have no real idea who 'owns' CAMERA, although the self explanation on the site gives some hints as to what their agenda is, I will place no more objective believability in their content than any other source of 'alleged absolute truth' without further investigation of the source.

"taken his land for public use" .. and then sold it to 'settlers'? There has been discussion here on Mudcat about the US Govt seizing 'private land for public use', and how many are not happy with it, even though it is 'the law of the land, upheld in the courts'... And of course, just what is 'Jewish Land'? What the UN passed 'a just and proper law' to designate as 'Israel', even though many of the then occupants were to be removed of their homes? Or what some Jewish prophet said the voice inside his head told him 'would be Jewish land for ever', even though for the last 2 thousand years and a bit other nations have been tromping their armies all over it calling it 'theirs'? In that case, does it include land on the map outside the 'lawfully designated' borders of 'Israel' - which is what I was referring to as 'Palestine'?

I also have no doubt that some people have gone thru the valid 'legal processes' for acquiring the land from someone, but also in passing I must note that in 30's Germany, valid (not my definition!) 'legal processes' existed to strip on a whim Jewish and other German citizens of their property without reasonable and just compensation: that didn't make that morally right either!

Ah 'Balanced Coverage' - my hackles always rise when I hear that - you hear that from everybody, as if their very special personal opinion is the only real 'balanced viewpoint' (and of course it's a great 'put down' tactic to discredit all other viewpoints by implication!), including George and Johnny and their mates, and even Goebbels espoused that... Fisk's self opinionated wankerism is known to Australians, it's no secret really anyway - we don't have to rely on just him for a source here anyhow. Here in Oz, we have a program called Media Watch that investigates such things as 'journalistic distortions' and even awards prizes for the most outrageous cases. there is no shortage of people all over the world ready to point out journalistic shortcomings. Unfortunately (and it is often castigated for this!), the program also often points out that there are many groups with their own private agendas, whose only interest is to present a viewpoint favourable to just them, even if it involves misquoting 'authorities'.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 01:56 AM

Oh well, I have been having ISP based connection difficulties, The first attempt (22 Jan 06 - 08:18 PM) didn't show up here so I reworked it a bit and sent it a second time (23 Jan 06 - 01:50 AM ).

It's all right by me of a clone deletes the first attempt above.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM

Changing the subject accomplishes two things. It makes Martin Gibson the center of attention and it scatters the intellectual capital of the list participants. He feels no compulsion to follow reasonable rules of discourse when debating the issue at hand. We've hashed this failing of his a lot of times before, and anyone who challenges his lack of actual knowledge or uncivil approach to the current debate is met with a barrage of name-calling.

Meanwhile, Bush is trashing what little "good name" the U.S. had in the world and relies on zealous pinheads like MG to keep people off balance. Bush tramples the rights of citizens because his actions allow corporations and those who already have undue influence to benefit further. "Civil rights" are discretionary in Bush's cabal. Either MG can't think for himself or he's tied in with a group or organization who receive unfair benefits based on Bush policy. And come to think of it, Israel is one of those organizations that receives unfair benefit from the Bush administration.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 12:00 PM

Wheeee OOOO, Stilly!! Laser eye and razor tongue!! LOL!



A

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: GUEST,Farfel
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 02:34 PM

Blogger Obtains Gen. Wesley Clark's Phone Records For $89.95

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Posted on Jan. 12, 2006

AMERICAblog: I reported the other day that your cell phone records are on sale online for anyone to buy, without your permission. Well, this morning AMERICAblog bought former presidential candidate, and former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO (SACEUR), General Wesley Clark’s cell phone records for one hundred calls made over three days in November 2005, no questions asked. (Clark’s cell phone provider is Omnipoint Communications, which seems to be related to T-Mobile.)

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 03:07 PM

No, I'm not. I'm matter-of-fact. You're old news around here.

There was an excellent discussion on the topic that this thread is actually about on Fresh Air today. Here is a link to the program, and the following is the introductory text:

Authors
Bush, the CIA and America: 'State of War'

Fresh Air from WHYY, January 23, 2006 · In December, New York Times reporters James Risen and Eric Lichtblau broke the news that the Bush administration had authorized a domestic spying program.

Risen's new book is State of War: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration. While it describes the National Security Agency's practices of monitoring communication in the United States, the book also delves into the deeper relationship between the president and the CIA -- particularly in terms of his aspirations in Iraq.

In his account, Risen describes President Bush as being bent on war in Iraq -- not least because he sought to do the job better than the United States -- and his father -- had done in 1991.

From the controversial "Downing Street Memo" that described military action in Iraq as a foregone conclusion months before the war to power struggles among the CIA the Defense Department and other entities, State of War provides a detailed context for looking at American policies in Iraq.

I'll listen to this one again online because the local pledge drive talked over the top of part of the interview. The part I heard this morning was excellent, a lucid discussion of how Bush has overstepped his legal authority.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 06 - 04:16 PM

Martin Gibson's opinions are worth nothing.

He is little more than a barking dog.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 08:27 AM

Ah, perfida ingrata - the compulsive cacphile again - the cauda mundi of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 09:16 AM

Doesn't anyone want to talk about the little green cameras that are showing up all over friggin' everywhere?

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 09:31 AM

Haven't seen any little green eyes. Marty's are brown, I know that much.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 01:17 PM

There are cameras everywhere, Peace. Which ones do you have in mind?

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 01:47 PM

These.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 02:20 PM

We see those in stores and banks and post offices perched over the top of the cashiers to a) keep track of them and b) keep track of their customers.

There are communities that put them out on the public thoroughfares to keep track of the general populace passing through the area. Search on "cam" and you'll find lots of hits.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:05 PM

It's too much like "1984" for this kid. I figure next we'll have voice comin' outta the clouds.

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 08:54 PM

NOAH!

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 12:49 AM

WHAT? Look, who is this?

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 04:21 AM

Must be the Devil tempting us again...

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: GUEST,The Vogon Captain
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 06:07 AM

PEOPLE OF EARTH, YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE!

Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 06:30 PM

Peace,
I'll say something about the cameras.
Do you remember the good old days of the cold war, when the Soviets were the manifestation of all that the West was against.
One of those manifestations, picked up by Orwell as the Big Brother Is Watching You slogan, was that in the S.U., there was any amount of spying on ordinary citizens.
And in those days, that was the kind of thing that would not exist in the West because we were the countries of free peoples. The idea of being spied on was anathema.
Then the Berlin Wall fell; the Cold War drew towards a close.
In short order, by virtue of great free enterprise activities like motorists speeding, criminality, and terrorism, cameras sprang up in the Free World. Only now cameras were fine, and spying on people became laudable.

A classic example of projection, only state projection rather than the individual variety. In the Cold War, we projected onto the Soviets those aspects of ourselves that we denied we possessed. Now the SU has gone. we can not only own those apects, we now think them a Good Thing.

Auto