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Original Music That Sounds Traditional?
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Bill D Date: 12 Feb 99 - 05:50 PM yes, shambles, I suspect it is a bit like your 'magic'...traditional is something I can sort of describe(and I am working slowly on list of conditions and categories to explicate it all...), but is very much just 'feeling'...if you watch a classsic production of Shakespeare, and then watch a re-done 'modern' version with current slang and 'mod' costumes, you may have some idea what it is like...it just ain't what I am used to, and I never DID see the reason for gratuitous experimenting!. There no law against it, just label it clearly so I don't waste my money needlessly... ( I often wonder why I keep chewing at the problem...but I do think that this exchange of ideas really can help us, if not agree with one another, at least understand one anotther better..)
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Pete M Date: 14 Feb 99 - 05:50 PM Shambles, please don't apologise, this is one of the most entertaining and thought provoking threads for some time, and that ,as I write it, seems to me to answer, or at least point to an answer to your question about singer/songwriters, their songs are rarely either entertaining or thought provoking. Singer/songwriter has, I believe, become a self defining category, there are a whole raft of people, some of great talent, who write and perform their own work, but who we would never dream of putting in the s/s basket; Paxton, McTell, MacColl & Guthrie, for example. As Bert has said, s/s's are often so omphalistic and/or narcissistic that they fail to meet the basic purpose of a performance, ie to entertain, but fail to recognise their failure. Some of course become hugely successful commercially despite these traits, but then so is MacDonalds! On the taxonomical side of things, I think you are missing Bill's point about exclusion. It is quite possible to define a condition, which in practice, can only be said with any degree of certainty to exist by excluding all other possibilities. Medicine is a prime field for this kind of exercise. I am not a great fan of reductionism; but it is undoubtedly a useful tool in the right place, also the category we put something in will depend on our own world view as much as anything, and that inevitably changes with time, so yes, I believe that a structured taxonomy for "folk" music is of great help to most people most of the time, but that does not imply that the categories are or should be rigid. I would suggest that more understanding arises from discussions about the fuzzy overlaps than anything else. The issue of categories in Music shops is I think, a red herring, those categories are defined not to differentiate on any basis meaningful within the field, merely to maximise sales by often intentionally misleading. Yes I think there is a mystique or magic which a song acquires, like a patina, with absorption into the folk process, for me it has nothing to do with age per se although a certain amount of time needs to have passed for it to occur; it may ultimately be indefinable except at an emotional level, but its real for all that. I also remember the Ascent of Man, and agree totally about the danger of people who are absolutely certain they are right. Can't think of any Duck angles though! Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Shambles Date: 19 May 99 - 07:14 PM Refresh. We haven't had much conversation about ducks recently. I kind of miss it. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Joe Offer Date: 19 May 99 - 09:37 PM I went to a Tom Russell concert here in Denver Saturday night - now, there's a songwriter whose work sounds a hundred years old the moment he writes it. the first half of the concert was a selection of songs from his new album, The Man from God Knows where. Good stuff. I especially like his cowboy songs. Tom russel sang one song, "Orphan Train," by David Massengill, another songwriter with a very traditional sound to many of his songs. Massengill wrote another song that is often attributed to "traditional" - I think it's called "Fairfax County." Baez and the Roches recorded it a while back. Massengill said he didn't get any money out of the Baez recording, but I got the impression he may have been joking about that. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Liam's Brother Date: 19 May 99 - 11:12 PM I've heard many fine songs when in Ireland that I've thought might be traditional and the reason is that the people whom (I later found out) wrote them are themselves part of the tradition. These are "unknown people" writing about their surroundings. They are people having much more familiarity with traditional song than popular song. That's the difference to my mind.
All the best,
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Ian Date: 20 May 99 - 07:48 AM The whole idea of what's traditional fascinates me. I've been very interested in the contributions here, but none of them touch on what I have come to think of as traditional. There are two criteria. 1. That in general nobody claims it. It's fine to write something and be capable of being identified as the author. What I mean is that nobody is going to sue you for singing it or for getting the words "wrong". 2. That somebody, not the author, felt it worthwhile learning - generally orally - to sing other than for profit (rules out recorded covers of Beatles hits). This suggests two unusual traditional songs which you might wish to comment on or add to. One is "Norwegian Wood" as sung in our folk session. We don't do it like The Beatles and, though the words are much the same, the stresses are markedly different. The other is "Delilah", song in some very interesting modal keys by people leaving one of our (three) village pubs at around midnight. Would I be willing to die to include these in the traditional corpus? - depends. Ian
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 May 99 - 08:41 AM This thread is being confused by use of an undefined term "traditional". Let's stick to "folk". That is music and song handed down and modified by the oral tradition (which precludes acknowledgment of authorship). Apply that and everything gets a lot clearer. The fact that traditional-sounding stuff is not folk does not make it worse (or better). It merely means it is not folk. Another approach might be to define "traditional". Interesting things definitions. If you assert that the need for the oral tradition precludes songs first published in written form from ever being folk song the "the Cutty (or Cuddy - but not Ruddy) Wren" (1342, I think) is not a folk song. But it must surely be traditional. I am told that "Darcy Farrow" is modern. But many think it sounds like American traditional. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Shambles Date: 20 May 99 - 10:32 AM What is folk? *Smiles* |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Bert Date: 20 May 99 - 11:11 AM OK Shambles, you said "We haven't had much conversation about ducks recently" Well seeing your last post you'd better 'duck' Bert. (Where's Elsie when we need her?) |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Graham Pirt Date: 20 May 99 - 07:15 PM I've just returned from a concert with Chris Wood, Andy Cutting, Karen Tweed and Ian Carr. They played a set of English dance tunes which Chris introduced as, "..some from then and some from now" It really does cloud the issue as soon as we start attaching words like 'folk' and 'traditional'. I'm friendly with some shepherds from Northumberland who play tunes - some that they've written and some that they haven't. I don't recall them ever calling one of the tunes folk or traditional. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Feb 00 - 07:52 AM And they talk about singer songwriters as being obsessed with studying their navels...
(Though navel study shouldn't be disparaged. Ducks can't do it after all, ruddy or otherwise, it's only us placental mammals. And there's lots of people round the folk scene who haven't been able to see their navels in years, including some singer-songwriters I dare say.)
How come we keep on talking about "the tradition". There are all kinds of different traditions, some of them longstanding, some very recent indeed. For convenience we bundle a few of them together and call that "folk", and then argue as to which ones should be included, and what are the common factor linking them.
While a tradition is alive, new stuff can be produced which is part of that tradition. Once it's dead, the songs and the music are still available, but new stuff in the same style aren't part of that tradition, they are part of another distinct modern tradition. So Sea Shanties came frtom a tradition which was involved them having a role as work songs. You can't have new songs which are part of that tradition. If you make a "new sea shanty" it is something else, even if in form it looks and sounds like a sea shanty and it might be a great song.
Just as you can have reproduction furniture, and it can be good furniture, you can have reproduction songs, and they can be good songs. But I don't think it's right to artificially age songs to pretend they are something they are not. The exception I suppose is where for a particular purpose, such as a play, a song is written "in costume" - that is where John Tams and people like Graham Moore come in. And it is easy for songs like that to be taken as taken as traditional. I'd sooner use the term "in the tradition" (meaning in some particular tradition).
But generally the best songs are songs which may draw on traditional elements, but don't dress up. Stan Rogers, for example. I'd say these are songs coming out of the particular tradition, raher than as being in the tradition or traditional.
As for singer-songwriters, introspective or not - I'd call that a currently living tradition in itself, analogous to the french chansonnier tradition. And like any living tradition, some is good, some is not. Over time most of the chaff is blown away, most of what survives is good (and a lot of good stuff is lost as well.) It seems bizarre for people to sneer at the idea of people singing songs they have written , but then, when examples are given of good songs being sung well by the people who write them, to turn around and say "no,they aren't singer-songwriters". If course they are, they just happen to be good singer songwriters. (Not a term I would ever use myself.)
As for "Rave On" - would it be more acceptable if it were sung "Rove On"?...
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Amos Date: 27 Feb 00 - 01:00 AM That would be -- if I understand yer meaning -- "Reave On"? -- or something? |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Amos Date: 27 Feb 00 - 01:00 AM That would be -- if I understand yer meaning -- "Reave On"? -- or something? |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Arkie Date: 27 Feb 00 - 01:38 AM Shambles, thanks for resurrecting this thread. This is obviously a subject that gets folk heated up a bit and one that will continue to be thrashed about. My slant on the matter is that the terms "folk" and "traditional" are simply academic labels that are attached to certain music forms to help place them in some historical context. The intent is not to place a "value" by the labeling. The human creature does have a passion for sorting and labeling. Ideally, to place a song or tune in the folk or traditional category should not imply that it is better or worse for that designation. The terms folk and traditional are not synonymous. "Folk" is a broad category that may encompass many traditions. "Tradition" is a specific category relating to a particular community, region, or country, etc. Some things can even be traditional without belonging in the folk category. A person cannot create a "folk song" or a "traditional song" in thirty minutes. Both take time and acceptance to earn their academic label. However, one can certainly create something that resembles a folk or traditional song in a short period of time and if folks like it and it touches a spot in the heart and people keep singing it and passing it on to others, then it is a wonderful thing. The value of this newly created song lies not in the label it bears, but whether or not folks enjoy it.
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Peg Date: 29 Feb 00 - 12:44 PM interesting thread, all... Shambles: thanks for reminding me about The Ascent of Man. A professor of mine in college had our Experimental Theatre class watch the entire series in class...I had forgotten how much it changed my life and wish I could find a copy of it now... When I first heard "Mull of Kintyre" I thought it was a traditional song and asked a friend where i could find the lyrics etc...He told me it was written by Paul McCartney and was the top-selling Beatles' single of all time in the UK...just goes to show. I myself have written some original songs with traditional sounding meolidies and lyrics...and have also added new "traditional" lyrics to songs such as She Moved Through the Faire and Black is the Colour of My True Love's Hair, both songs whose lyrics seemed to me in need of embellishing (the story, in the case of the first, and the emotions, in the case of the second). Composing such lyrics is difficult if one wishes to keep them authentic and appropriate to the song's original version (or versions, as is usually the case). Two extra verses I added to She Moved Through the Faire (which I sometimes use to replace the third verse which begins "The people were saying no two e'er were wed"):
I gave my love a ring of fine silver thread
The frost lies on the field, the snow on the hill
To me, these extra verses expand on the mystery...did she just take off and disappear? To me the final verse always seemed to make this into a ghost story (she come sin quietly at the window as in a dream), so I wanted to embellish that possibility. peg |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Peg Date: 29 Feb 00 - 12:44 PM interesting thread, all... Shambles: thanks for reminding me about The Ascent of Man. A professor of mine in college had our Experimental Theatre class watch the entire series in class...I had forgotten how much it changed my life and wish I could find a copy of it now... When I first heard "Mull of Kintyre" I thought it was a traditional song and asked a friend where i could find the lyrics etc...He told me it was written by Paul McCartney and was the top-selling Beatles' single of all time in the UK...just goes to show. I myself have written some original songs with traditional sounding meolidies and lyrics...and have also added new "traditional" lyrics to songs such as She Moved Through the Faire and Black is the Colour of My True Love's Hair, both songs whose lyrics seemed to me in need of embellishing (the story, in the case of the first, and the emotions, in the case of the second). Composing such lyrics is difficult if one wishes to keep them authentic and appropriate to the song's original version (or versions, as is usually the case). Two extra verses I added to She Moved Through the Faire (which I sometimes use to replace the third verse which begins "The people were saying no two e'er were wed"):
I gave my love a ring of fine silver thread
The frost lies on the field, the snow on the hill
To me, these extra verses expand on the mystery...did she just take off and disappear? To me the final verse always seemed to make this into a ghost story (she come sin quietly at the window as in a dream), so I wanted to embellish that possibility. peg |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Peg Date: 29 Feb 00 - 12:44 PM interesting thread, all... Shambles: thanks for reminding me about The Ascent of Man. A professor of mine in college had our Experimental Theatre class watch the entire series in class...I had forgotten how much it changed my life and wish I could find a copy of it now... When I first heard "Mull of Kintyre" I thought it was a traditional song and asked a friend where i could find the lyrics etc...He told me it was written by Paul McCartney and was the top-selling Beatles' single of all time in the UK...just goes to show. I myself have written some original songs with traditional sounding meolidies and lyrics...and have also added new "traditional" lyrics to songs such as She Moved Through the Faire and Black is the Colour of My True Love's Hair, both songs whose lyrics seemed to me in need of embellishing (the story, in the case of the first, and the emotions, in the case of the second). Composing such lyrics is difficult if one wishes to keep them authentic and appropriate to the song's original version (or versions, as is usually the case). Two extra verses I added to She Moved Through the Faire (which I sometimes use to replace the third verse which begins "The people were saying no two e'er were wed"):
I gave my love a ring of fine silver thread
The frost lies on the field, the snow on the hill
To me, these extra verses expand on the mystery...did she just take off and disappear? To me the final verse always seemed to make this into a ghost story (she come sin quietly at the window as in a dream), so I wanted to embellish that possibility. peg |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Peg Date: 29 Feb 00 - 02:47 PM gads I have NO IDEA why that posted three times!!! sorry about that (except I don't know what I did...) peg |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Martin _Ryan Date: 29 Feb 00 - 03:24 PM Some songs, of course, become traditional "despite themselves" i.e. when it is most unlikely that the writer expected/wanted it to happen. I was reminded of this at the weekend when again hearing a great traditional singer called Luke Cheevers (and believe me, they don't come more traditional!)sing Shane McGowans "Sally McEralane" (sp.?)in a perfectly traditional way. The same has happened to "Fairy Tale of New York", incidentally. I'm not knoocking it, BTW - I think it's great when it happens, but it IS exceptional. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 29 Feb 00 - 03:33 PM Peg! Great lyrics! I may have to make off with them when yer not looking! But I once found a set of lyrics for "She Moved..." that claimed to be the original, that had, to start the last verse, the line... How much do you know about that lyric and it authenticity? {~` |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Peg Date: 29 Feb 00 - 03:44 PM Clinton; I have seen that lyric too and in my opinion the thought of this mysetrious woman dying, as opposed to her merely wandering off and never apearing again based on some obscure "sorrow" makes much more sense...but rarely does anyone sing it with the words "my dead love", maybe too eerie for some. I never thought of the corpse imagery you describe so, uh, eloquently, but instead of the man "seeing" her as a ghost on the astral plane in dreams...which is pretty much the realm of the dead, some believe, or at least a place where we may communicate with them... You are welcome to the lyrics, just don't forget my royalty check...
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Feb 00 - 09:29 PM "She moved through the fair" was written by Padraic Colum 1881-1972. Here's a link to a page about him The irony is thta, though he was fanous and wrote a lot of good stuff, the piece that's most well known is this, and most people think it's traditional. Well, it is now, anyway.
They're good verses Peg - but myself I feel the story gains by being pared to the bone. In fact when I sing it, I leave out the verse about the people and the sorrow that never was said, because that was how I heard it first from Margaret Barrie, and it seems complete that way. It's a beautiful verse, but says more than needs to be said, to my mind.
And it has always been "dead love" for me. I've seen it printed with the last verse as "young love", so maybe that is how Padraic wrote it. I find it much more powerful with "dead love" - especially with the promise that they are still getting married - in other words, he'll be dead soon enough himself. Too eerie? Well, if someone isn't at ease with eerie is this the right song for them to be singing anyway? Anyway, whether it's sung as "dead" or "young", I think she's died sure enough. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Bill D Date: 29 Feb 00 - 10:39 PM wow...I had forgotten about this thread!..I sure was eloquent when I was young & energetic last year, huh?...spent an hour composing a post in that NEW thread, when I could simply have been as clever as shambles and refreshed THIS one!....and it does my old heart good to read thru this and actually find a few folk agreeing with some of my abstruse points...(I suspect that 'some' of the difficulty in this discussion is that it IS a lot of work to sort thru the logic...it is easier to just make music you like and then call it 'XXX'...sort of like shooting the arrow and then drawing the bullseye.. ;>).....) |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: GUEST Date: 01 Mar 00 - 05:22 AM |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 01 Mar 00 - 05:30 AM McGrath Most people are right! The song is traditional - Colum adapted his version from an existing one. While his is by far the most commonly sung, there are others still in circulation. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Shambles Date: 01 Mar 00 - 11:03 AM I suppose I am more interested in making arrows than in finding any targets.So you had better, DUCK!!!! The music did come before the categories, after all.
Yes, it was a lot easier to dig this one up again but I had been thinking about the subject again recently and I did have something new to say. It is also nice to see some new opinions being voiced here.
To my great honour and surprise, I found that I had one of my songs in the DT. I had been posting songs to the forum for sometime, as I found it easier, in some cases, to post my thoughts, contained in a song, than to write them. When I came to gather them together for inclusion in The Mudcat Songbook, I found there were quite a number of these songs.
This is not a criticism of the DT or the selection methods used. I only mention it to demonstrate my feelings, as although I was pleased to see a composition of mine there, if I am honest, I was a little disappointed in the fairly untypical nature of the song that represented my efforts.
It was what I would describe as a 'cod' traditional folksong. Written in a setting and style of the past and as a conscious effort (if genuine) attempt to write a (folk) song about a subject that interested me, life on the inland waterways of Britain. For although I honestly thought that this was probably the best way to treat the subject, it was done, as a fairly academic exercise, to see if I could do it.
I did have some knowledge of the subject but the song is not a first hand account or a scholarly work, just mainly, my imagination and personal view. Not too different to most of the other songs of mine that I had posted. So why then, I ask myself, does that one appear in the DT and not the others? Myself does not answer very clearly.
Do songs like these have any merit or do they exist only because of the curmudgeons and their narrow definitions? Would it have mattered, if I had not claimed authorship but that the song appeared in the DT as traditional? |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: KingBrilliant Date: 01 Mar 00 - 11:36 AM I really like singing songs of a particular style which I suppose would be called traditional. As those are the songs which I tend to sing, then they obviously influence the songs I write (and I can't much help what I write as they tend to emerge when I'm driving or cycling). I don't think that's unreasonable - we write songs for the love of singing them rather than for a target category surely. If you write songs then you are pretty much bound to write songs you will like. I expect there are good & bad, but I don't think there should be an ought and ought-not about it. I think that for a lot of people, the provenance of a song or tune is not as important as the performance you are listening to. If you like it then its a good thing - I don't really believe in absolute values for music, surely its a matter of the moment & the individuals. Kris |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Charley Noble Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:11 AM Well discussed and well worth refreshing. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:45 PM it is easy enough to write music that sounds English Irish Scots Welsh Traditional,just stick to Dorian Ionian mixolydian aeolian modes,try using infrequent modulation. when it comes to lyrics studying the old ballads,helps. many are written in the third person. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Snuffy Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:38 PM Can you give us an instance of one you've written that sounds English Irish Scots Welsh Traditional? |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: quantock Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:33 PM Here's the only song I have ever written that I still perform. Several people have told me that it sounds traditional. The story comes from an old Dartmoor legend. There is more information about this at: http://www.legendarydartmoor.co.uk/grey_wethers.htm Grey Wethers ============ To Newton Abbot's market fair Upon a Saturday I chanced to meet a dealer there Who unto me did say Who unto me did say I've two fine flocks of sheep for sale The best grey wethers they be Over the hill beyond the dale On Sittaford Tor you'll see On Sittaford Tor you'll see His price was twenty pounds all told He seemed an honest man I quickly paid with coins of gold And for my horse I ran And for my horse I ran I rode away and hour at least Til up upon a crest There I pulled my noble beast To take a minute's rest To take a minute's rest. Twas then I peered across the vale And those grey wethers found But they moved no more than any snail You see upon the ground You see upon the ground I galloped on to that hillside Amongst the heather and gorse But there were no sheep a-grazing there Just granite rocks of course Just granite rocks of course If you wander over Sittaford Tor Tis true unto this day You'll see fine flocks of granite stones Just like those wethers grey Just like those wethers grey And if you go to the market place To spend a pound or two Be sure to see the goods you but Or you'll be diddled too Or you'll be diddled too Rob Williams. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Stringsinger Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM I nominate Jean Ritchie, Steve Earle, Utah, Woody, Lee and Pete, and other unsung heroes. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:15 PM snuffy ,visit http://www.dickmiles.com I have a song book the Sailors dream. Jack the Lad , possibly Bosworth field,Home to the Haven,come in to this category. Cyril Tawney,Ewan Maccoll,should be nominated |
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