BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 06 - 07:51 PM

Keith humerus...?
i always saw him more as a tibia

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:09 AM

Bente,
Thanks.
Remember that DtG and I joined a campaign against Loyalist paramilitaries., writing to our MPs and posting their replies.

John O'L,
Your message gave me a real lift. Thank you.

Guest 07.08,
It is most inconsiderate of you not to give a name. Everyone has to read back to the time, but a name is instantly memorable.
Also we can not follow the progression of your argument if we can not identify your previous posts.

You say you receive PMs so you must be a member.Why hide?

Also, people may think that you are me, posing as an anonymous, ignorant bigot to discredit the opposition.

Sorry for so many posts but I set myself up here at the request of Divis, Bente and Guests (you?) to answer questions.

It is legitimate to quote the informed statements of knowledgeable people in debate.

Live and let live? I agree.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:59 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:00 AM

Wee Little Drummer,
I have been called worse.
Coccyx?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:41 AM

Sadly Keith none of the others that you may of expected arrived on this thread. Really feel probably much like yourself that it unfortunately has had an adverse effect on your own credibility here. Reading over the above posts all I see is you repeating unsubstantiated remarks you made about the ira and none of them with a court conviction to support your claims. There was nothing new in it. You said you were here to answer questions that were put to you. You may well feel you achieved that. There was no new debate on the Irish issue. Even the ones that normally come in guns blazing, (excuse the pun) stayed away.

Sorry Keith I feel the advice you got to get out of the hole before it caved in appears to have had some merit.

It is legitimate to quote the informed statements of knowledgeable people in debate ?
Yes as long as they favour your cause, you are too quick to dismiss their infomed sources in previous threads.


Live and let live? I agree.
Opps Keith as long as they aren't people that are quoted in informed statements or Irish patriots.

Leave it Keith. Try to get out of the hole again.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,forum browser
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:29 AM

I only usually read, leaving the discussion to others.
I think Keith has done well.
He did not ask for help.
He tried to answer all the questions, and did so straight away.
Fair play I say.
Charlotte.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:31 AM

Nor did help arrive !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Billy McKinley
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:15 AM

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 04:30 PM

Bente, it was a bar brawl, not an IRA operation.
I never once criticised the IRA over the murder.

I read through your posts from last year and I adivse others to do the same. It shows the above poster to be a lair.


From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 03:11 PM

Bente,
Everyone is free to speak out for what they believe.

Everyone ? Yes Keith, I think we can go back through your posts and see that remark bite you on the ass.

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 03:45 PM

I also noted that a Republican in the South was found to have bank notes to the value of $ 3 Million US in a bin in his back yard.
Not proof but...
Another Republican tried to burn so many banknotes that clouds of them emerged from his chimney and covered the neighbourhood with singed money.

So did the police ever say that this money came from the raid ?
Answer NO. I see the only money from the raid was found in a Belfast police club !
Did you blame them ?

The only post that made any sense to me in this thread was the follwing.


Do you not think it is time to give Keith a fools pardon,reading this latest load of tripe is proof enough that this man has lost the plot.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:46 AM

Charlotte,
Thank you for your post.
I hope it will be the first of many.

Billy, why not give links to the posts so that we can see who is the liar?

No, the police could not prove that those millions in banknotes came from the robbery. I said as much.

A small amount of money was found in the police club. Left where it was sure to be found.

Now, today is a lovely day here in Hertford and I am not going to chain myself to the keyboard again.
Also I am going to see Dan McKinnon sing at St.Albans tonight.
I wll try to answer any further questions, but please be patient.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:45 AM

Billy,
You have called me a liar.
If you can not do links, give the name of the thread and date/time of my post, and I will do the links for you.
Perhaps you were just carried away with understandable emotion, and would like to take it back?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:52 AM

Digs the hole even deeper. At least he has Charlotte and John O'L to keep him company down there. Many of us had friends like that when we were little too!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 06 - 11:21 AM

I think this multiple personality thread has lost it's appeal. Who said that ? Me you, you or you!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:45 PM

Thank you Keith for answering my questions.

I note you ask which cases I call murder ? innocent men, women and children Keith shot by British soldiers whilst no hostile activity was taking place.

I DO NOT refer to members of the PIRA who were shot whilst on active service against the police or army. That was the risk they undertook.

I did not take part in the above debate as you answered the questions I put to your in the second post.

Thanks for that Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:12 PM

The majority of Irish people in the North are happy to be ruled by Britain.

So why has Sinn Fein the second largest vote in Northern Ireland. (Billy McKinley)

Reading these two sentences in succession was my Mudcat laugh of the week.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:54 AM

Sweeney,
The government had little choice but use the army with the level of violence threatening civil war.
They could not be withdrawn until IRA belatedly realised its terror was counter productive.
The British army is better than others but Akeneaton and Ardmhacha are right that soldiers make bad policemen.

I admitted that the army killed innocents but I have 3 caveats.

1 Last year an ex ira man, overcome by guilt, admitted having killed a child in a botched attempt to shoot a soldier.
IRA had lied about this and blamed it on the army.
How many more such cases?

2 We (RIGHTLY) expect high standards of restraint from our law keepers.
Other countries would not be shocked if car thieves crashing through a check point were shot at.

3 Republican paramilitaries killed far more innocents than the army.
Many hundreds more innocent deaths on their hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:55 AM

Those who doubt my worrds should look at This chart

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:01 AM

That's great Keith. So do you feel in anyway your Destiny is somewhat fulfilled now ?

As to my own view, The Irish Republican Army came about as a result of the repression your country placed upon my people. And if you think for one moment your posts will ever alter my views on our struggle, they won't. I am a Republican now, and will be to the day I die and I will continue to defend the IRA for the struggle they undertook.

After this very disappointing thread of yours, which didn't seem to strike anyones match. It would probably be best to wait and see do any of your old friends ever decide to come back before you think up another attack on the IRA.

Scratching over old ground serves no purpose, I could start threads on the actions of your army while they were here. What purpose would it serve ?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:59 AM

He only started the thread to answer the questions you kept asking him.
Now you wish he hadn't.
Knob!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 06 - 11:47 AM

I understand Sweeney.
You have given everything and risked your life for the cause.
You have seen fine men and good friends die bloodily.
Your own leaders have betrayed you for fat British salaries and gold plated British pensions.
You perhaps have blood on your own hands.
You could never accept that it was all for nothing.
That all you have gained and more could have been had years ago with no killings.
I bear you no ill will Seamus.
Good luck,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 06 - 12:24 PM

Sorry Divis Sweeney, now realise he could have answered your questions in that The Wind That Shakes The Barley topic. And you did not ask him to start this thread, it was Keith that said he would. Just reading it and seen he felt he could ask questions in it not related to the topic, and did answer some questions that suited him.
Knob!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Charlotte
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:00 PM

You all demanded that he answer all your questions.
All he did was answer them here instead of messing up the film thread with all this.
I don't know why you all hate him so much.
Charlotte.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:08 PM

I haven't been around here much in the last while. Just checking in on threads that pique my curiousity. It was, I suppose no surprise to see this one, started by Keith who it seems can't come to terms with the fact that his Government are so capable and adept at commiting evil. His statement above and I quote, "That all you have gained and more could have been had years ago with no killings", goes some way to summing-up Keith. How on earth could you possibly qualify that statement. You are either under the misconception that your Government can do no wrong or you are extremely naive in matters pertaining to the troubles in the north of Ireland over the last thirty odd years. I'm hoping for the latter.

Keith I know that you are fond of stats. So I want to provide you with some information. But before I do I'd like to say that yes I agree that the IRA have over the years been involved in killing and murder. Your charts bear that out. But in cases where charges were made those responsible were tried, convicted and sentenced to prison. I have never known one conviction brought against the security forces who were involved in the killing and murder of innocents in N. Ireland.

You claim that the army was brought to Ulster because of escalating violence, "The government had little choice but use the army with the level of violence threatening civil war", you failed to mention that it was violence against the nationalist population which brought the troops there. The British were pressured to choose an enemy and they chose the Nationalist population in general and the IRA in particular.
As is evident from your charts no protestant civilians have been killed or murdered by the army. You spoke of one ex-IRA member being remorseful over the murder of a child and you wonder how many more killings could be attributed because of false information. I think that is speculation. Many people showed up in allyways with hoods over their heads and noone claimed responsibility. Could they have been the victims of state sponsored terrorism? You see I am speculating here but you get my drift.

The sites I am about to direct you and anyone else who is interested to contain the names of all those killed during the troubles on the Nationalist side by security forces. Some of those listed were IRA volunteers on active service and I agree with Divis when he said that they knew the risks involved. Others were not on active service and killed. The vast majority however were innocent, mostly teenagers who have now become stats.

The first site here were victims of plastic bullets. Remember when Willie Whitelaw formewr secretart of state had thoght plastic bullets too lethal a force to be used against the Toxteth rioters. He had no such pangs of conscience in using them in the north of Ireland.

The next link will take you to information pertaining to those murdered by loyalists in collusion with the security forces.

The final one will take you to information on those killed or murdered by the british army.

The names are in alphabetcal order in groups of four or five. There is a little yellow triangle that will allow you to break-out more detailed information. To this day I don't know of one member of the army ever been convicted with any of these killings. And therein lies the difference Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Charlotte
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:41 PM

Den that is so wrong to say those things about Keith. I feel he has proven to be a real Intelect and expert on all Irish matters. He is the only one that seems to tell the truth on these Irish threads.
I say well done Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:53 PM

"An expert on all Irish matters"? What do you say to that Keith? I hope your laughing. Charlotte don't let your "Britishness" cloud your vision. Did you check out the links I provided? I'd bet no.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,hěr-ə-füd hěr-i-füd
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:57 PM

Keith looks like quite a fan club here for you. Never saw so much support arrive praising one guy. All these guests seem to want more of you. Will we get it ? Maybe a thread about (MPD) Multiple personality disorder !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:13 PM

Excellent post Den. I know you to be both impartial and a pacifist. And most of all a realist. Very unlikely it will change these beliefs Keith seems to have embedded. As you are aware I welcome peace in my country and glad to put the past behind me. Looking forward to Keith's reply to your post here.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:41 PM

Nothing to add Sweeney.
No more questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:48 PM

Thank you Den for bringing the first strain of Logic to what has to be the most monotonous bore of a thread I have read for quite some time.

superfluous Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 May 06 - 05:57 PM

No nothing to add Keith to your very successful thread. Glad I was so helpful through my pm to you.

Only one question for you. Are you going to reply to Den ?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:00 PM

Don't reply Divis, it was said the guy lost the plot and dug a hole for himself. It's true. CRACKERS !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 06 - 06:08 PM

Sweeney 1 Keith 0

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,hěr-ə-füd hěr-i-füd
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:39 PM

Keith, Den posed some questions. Please reply. Or has this guy got you on the ropes, looks like it !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,forum browser
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:49 PM

Keith, This was the post Den posted earlier in case you didn't seen it. Are you replying to him ? Is this information here all true Keith ? If so it makes all your information look a little shabby.

I haven't been around here much in the last while. Just checking in on threads that pique my curiousity. It was, I suppose no surprise to see this one, started by Keith who it seems can't come to terms with the fact that his Government are so capable and adept at commiting evil. His statement above and I quote, "That all you have gained and more could have been had years ago with no killings", goes some way to summing-up Keith. How on earth could you possibly qualify that statement. You are either under the misconception that your Government can do no wrong or you are extremely naive in matters pertaining to the troubles in the north of Ireland over the last thirty odd years. I'm hoping for the latter.

Keith I know that you are fond of stats. So I want to provide you with some information. But before I do I'd like to say that yes I agree that the IRA have over the years been involved in killing and murder. Your charts bear that out. But in cases where charges were made those responsible were tried, convicted and sentenced to prison. I have never known one conviction brought against the security forces who were involved in the killing and murder of innocents in N. Ireland.

You claim that the army was brought to Ulster because of escalating violence, "The government had little choice but use the army with the level of violence threatening civil war", you failed to mention that it was violence against the nationalist population which brought the troops there. The British were pressured to choose an enemy and they chose the Nationalist population in general and the IRA in particular.
As is evident from your charts no protestant civilians have been killed or murdered by the army. You spoke of one ex-IRA member being remorseful over the murder of a child and you wonder how many more killings could be attributed because of false information. I think that is speculation. Many people showed up in allyways with hoods over their heads and noone claimed responsibility. Could they have been the victims of state sponsored terrorism? You see I am speculating here but you get my drift.

The sites I am about to direct you and anyone else who is interested to contain the names of all those killed during the troubles on the Nationalist side by security forces. Some of those listed were IRA volunteers on active service and I agree with Divis when he said that they knew the risks involved. Others were not on active service and killed. The vast majority however were innocent, mostly teenagers who have now become stats.

The first site here were victims of plastic bullets. Remember when Willie Whitelaw formewr secretart of state had thoght plastic bullets too lethal a force to be used against the Toxteth rioters. He had no such pangs of conscience in using them in the north of Ireland.

The next link will take you to information pertaining to those murdered by loyalists in collusion with the security forces.

The final one will take you to information on those killed or murdered by the british army.

The names are in alphabetcal order in groups of four or five. There is a little yellow triangle that will allow you to break-out more detailed information. To this day I don't know of one member of the army ever been convicted with any of these killings. And therein lies the difference Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: The Curator
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:38 PM

Please read this great site I found about the British in South Africa. www.boer.co.za/boerwar/hellkamp.htm Excellent post Den.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 06 - 02:28 AM

Den,
I am sorry I did nt acknowledge your post properly.
By nothing to add I meant that I do not challenge anything you say,
except your assertion that violence wass the only way. I have discussed that with you before pointing out that it worked for the African Americans in late 60s-70s.
I know we are not going to agree on that.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: The Curator
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:31 AM

Keith A of Hertford
So you do not challenge anything Den has said.

So all those murdered by the British army in the link he provided has shut you up. He was right ?

So all those murdered by loyalists in collusion with the security forces has also shut up up. He was right ?

So all those murdered by the British army shooting plastic bullets has shut you up too. He was right ?

Really Keith A of Hertford   this amounts to Den being right about everything and having shut you up ?

WELL DONE DEN.

Sorry but your thread has only highlighted your own HYPOCRISY


Sorry Keith A of Hertford you clearly lost this debate, and saying you only started this thread to answer questions put to you sounds as it is FOOLHARDY. I have read through your previous posts on other threads. You only started this thread hoping to antagonise other members.

I agree with member ard mhacha, you dug a hole for yourself and it caved in around you ! Should have taken his advice.

WELL SAID ARD MHACHA.

Reading all of this shows me why so many people now have a clearer understanding to the situation that ocurred in Ireland and most of it is down to you. Doubt it's what you set out to achieve!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:38 AM

I started this thread reluctantly because it was demanded I answer questions.
Not to pontificate on history.
When the questions stop it is over.
Did you think those things in Den's post were a complete surprise to me?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 06 - 04:41 AM

Here is a list of bad things done by ALL parties.

No one benefitted from them but the opposition and the undertakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: The Curator
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:19 AM

Excuse me Keith A of Hertford

You said you only started this thread because you were asked to answer questions. In your words,

We had a thread about the film The Wind That Shakes The Barley.
Some contributors insisted I respond to issues beyond that of the film.

In that thread you answered questions about World War Two and the PIRA. did you not ?

So why suddenly did you feel the need to start another thread when you were happy enough to answer these questions which were not about the film ?

I imagine you had hoped to start a new thread in which you could attack the I.R.A. and as already said, you had hoped other members who supported you in previous threads against the I.R.A. would come on board, which they didn't. In fact all the members posts were actually against you !

Those here who seem to give an understanding to the Irish issue or if you would prefer, support the I.R.A. clearly came out of this thread better than you did reading the above posts. Only my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:43 AM

WW2 came into it because it was just 20 or so years after the legacy of the Tans. I used it as an indicator of feelings in Ireland soon after.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 06 - 10:58 AM

Just a tiny pedantic quible Den.
Michael Marley is not listed as an activist, but is listed here as having given his life for Ireland with a Republican Paramiltary unit.

I only noticed because Divis recently gave him as an example of a wholly innocent victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,John O'L
Date: 30 May 06 - 11:59 AM

Hi Keith,
That's interesting, in which post did Divis list him ? Please refer me to it.
Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 06 - 12:17 PM

John O'L is a member.
That makes you a fraud.
Why do you people do that?
The post was in a deleted thread.
I referred to the poor woman who was abducted and murdered for comforting a dying soldier by the Divis Flats, and Sweeney mentioned Mr. Marley because that was in Divis too.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Den
Date: 30 May 06 - 12:20 PM

What is your point Keith? If you actually read the detailed information about the events that lead to the shooting of this boy on the site I linked to you would have seen that he was a member of the Republican youth movement Na Fianna Eireann. If you read my post above you will note that I said the site included the names of active service members killed/murdered on duty and off duty. So are you saying that because he was involved in the republican movement that having several rounds pumped into his back was somehow justified? He was 16 years old running scared by all eyewitness accounts. My own son is 16 and I can't even imagine...

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 12:25 PM

Please give the title of the deleted thread Keith. Maybe Joe will source it for us. Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 06 - 12:29 PM

A nail bomb had been thrown at the soldiers.
There was forensic evidence and he had previous convictions for weapons and explosives.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 06 - 12:51 PM

I found it



Subject: RE: BS: Video of British Soldiers in Iraq
From: Divis Sweeney - PM
Date: 14 Feb 06 - 11:36 AM

You are right Keith people were shot in Divis flats.

Michael Marley 17 Years, Dunville Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot dead on 24 November 1973, by members of the British Army's Royal Green Jackets at Divis Flats.

During a military operation Michael left a friends flat to go to a shop in the complex. He was returning from the shop along Whitehall Row, on the fourth floor of the complex, when he spotted a number of British soldiers approaching him.Moments later several shots rang out and Michael was killed instantly. British Army admitted he was innocent and was not involved in any incident. Oh and they said sorry.

Next history lesson when your ready. Thanks for bringing this up.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Charlotte
Date: 30 May 06 - 01:44 PM

Den I did not say those things about you and Keith.That was not me and neither was the forum browser person. I cant believe how devious and sneaky some people are. I dont know anything about Ireland so i dont know who is right about all this. I was just cross that everyone was being nasty and no one was sticking up for him. I asked my Dad and he said that the IRA were dangerous and I shouldnt get involved.
Anyway if you see any more Charlottes it wont be me because I am never going to write another post

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 06 - 01:52 PM

Ah Charlotte has gone. Should we start a new thread and pick Keith a new name for one of his many admirers !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 May 06 - 02:04 PM

NOT taking sides , just sneaking a 100th post !!