BS: Joe the Plumber

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM

I think focusing on the things about this man that are false is important. He is being used by both the McCain campaign as well as the corporate media in this country as a kind of icon of the hardworking people who they are suggesting will be victimized by Obama's tax plan. It's dishonest from the ground up. It's dishonest for the plumber guy to misrepresent how Obama's tax plan would effect him. It's dishonest of McCain to prop the plumber up as a kind of average everyman just trying to get ahead, who will be prevented from doing so by Obama's plan (if there really is a person who will be negatively impacted in this way, let them produce that person as their example). And it was dishonest for the media to build a mythos around this guy at the beginning, and going on an on about it for 24 hours a day.

After the debate in which McCain used this plumber guy's lies to score points against Obama, at least two members of the commentariat said that the real winner of the debate was Joe the Plumber. It wasn't until people stuck a pin in that bubble by finding out the truth about this guy that the media, at least, stopped helping McCain to use this guy to score points.

It's good that people are finding out on their own what the truth is. What Joe and McCain are doing is dishonest and manipulative.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM

Mary--

What is your source for saying that Joe's tax problems were caused by medical conditions? It seems that somebody who is contemplating buying a business which brings in about $250,000--or less-- in a given year should be able to pay a tax bill for under $1,200 before he goes any further in his plans.

It is a tax bill owed to the state of Ohio. I have a copy of the docket sheet for his case, as I mentioned in another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM

Also, as Carol says, "Joe" is by no means the mythical "everyman" who would be hurt by Obama's tax proposals--since that "everyman" would be helped, not hurt by those proposals.

According to the WSJ (17 Oct 2008) quoting Lee Smither, managing director of FMI Corp, a Raleigh, NC managment-consulting firm for construction contractors: "Mr Wurzelbacher would be nowhere close to the threshhold of $200,000 for individuals and $250,000 for couples for Sen. Obama's proposed tax increase. To reach that level, Mr. Smither said, a mom-and-pop company like Newell would have to clear $5 million in annual sales."

The only "everyman" who would be hurt by Obama's proposals is one who owns a company with over $5 million in annual sales. How many of them are there, do you think?

Therefore, McCain's use of Joe as a model is fundamentally dishonest, as Carol notes.

The only question remaining is whether Joe is happy to be exploited by McCain for political purposes or not.   Evidence suggests that he is fine with it--since he also supports McCain on the Iraq war and other issues in the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:02 PM

>The fact that it sounds as if Joe wasn't actually one strictly accurate is only relevant in so far as it makes McCain's attempt to personalise that through invoking his name is absurd. And that's the phoniness on which people should be focussing their attention.<

Bingo.

However, the story becomes more interesting, and McCain's level of culpability changes, if Joe (Sam) was deliberately planted in Obama's face. McCain was at least absurdly ill prepared and imprudent in milking a silly story, therefore exercising bad judgment, but if his campaign was involved in advance with this charade, then it's worse.

A deliberate plant doesn't seem to be the case (yet), so we are left with McCain's extraordinarily bad judgment and cynicism about the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM

"Say it ain't so Joe" meets "Play it again, Sam"...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:11 PM

The straight talker we had dreamed about has been twisted into a human pretzel in the course of this election.

(Not an award-worthy metaphor, I know, but it serves the purpose.)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM

So that he could get a dum ass liar to say something stupid that McCain would pick up and hammer on incessantly at a debate and then be caught up for the bullshit and shown to be incompetent and thereby lose the election. Obama is cunning.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

Ron Davies...
from USA Today
"He also had to settle a lien for $1,261.37 that was placed in July 2007 by a local hospital for outstanding bills. It was lifted last October after the debt was satisfied."

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

Thanks, LEJ. The more facts the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM

Folks, this is an example of how partisanship just takes away from the real issue. There is no need to demonize this guy, but remember that it wasn't the Obama campaign that decided to make him an issue. If he is feeling put upon, he should thank McCain. McCain is a veteran of national media, and hence he should have known full well that by his raising this guy's profile, he would be subject to incredible scrutiny. That should have kicked in his better judgement, and caused him to vet the guy before using him as an example. But arrogance, self righteous indigation, and a sense of entitlement to the Presidency, cause him to shoot off at the lip. To me, this (like the Palin choice) is a direct reflection on this man's fitness for this office. He operates from a place that causes him to act without thinking. Not an admirable trait for one with the football.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM

IInteresting that the lien was placed by a local hospital. Bloomberg said "back taxes". So the phrase "back taxes" can be misleading, it appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

oops mine of 01:20 PM above was in response to a deleted post. I'm not really crazy. Well, maybe I am but not because of that exchange.

That'll teach you not to respond to guests.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

Screw it. Bring back Josephine the Plumber. Jane withers was both more convincing and more entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM

From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM

Folks, this is an example of how partisanship just takes away from the real issue.

Absolutely correct!!!...and that includes the real issues, being avoided, and us being distracted from altogether...stuff a lot of you apparently, are altogether unaware of!! It's about time that these two parties start UNDOING the political and financial logjams and messes they brought upon us all. Some of the 'attachments' to Homeland Security brought about by 'Executive Orders' would be a great start! Anybody even addressing this?....No!...They have got us worked up about, Sarah, Joe, troopers, and general crap on the level of Britney Spears, and Paris Hilton!! They hope to keep you all as small minded as possible...and the proof of that, is in the contents of this and several other threads...emotionally charged nonsense!! mountains out of molehills, and while we stoop over to examine that molehill, we get kicked in the ass for not paying attention to the traitors who tell us, 'Look over here'..'Oh, oh, now look over there'
The main hole they have got you taking a close look into, actually doesn't have anything to do with moles!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM

He still owes back taxes, and there's a lien on his property for that. If there was also a lien for medical bills, that's a separate thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

The real issue, in this particular case, is Obama's tax plan. Which some of us have actually been addressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:53 PM

CarolC, That is JUST ONE of the 'Hey, look over heres' I was referring to....though, it is still one of the bigger ones, so..I guess you got it half right. there are things hidden, in which the present administration brought in, that is a very real and present danger to us all, and our way of life. Those powers, in the hands of any president, with extreme plans, are beyond your wildest imaginations, of evil.

Have a great, and fun day!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM

Good gawd, what are they doing on college campuses these days:

Joe the Plumber has gone from a media star to possible political candidate.

The Massachusetts Alliance of College Republicans launched a Web site yesterday urging "Joe" - whose real name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher - to run for Congress in 2010 against Democratic Ohio Rep. Marcy Kaptur.

"Washington, D.C., is broken and it needs to be fixed. Joe Wurzelbacher has a real-world perspective and the right attitude to clean up the mess on Capitol Hill," said Trevor Lair, chairman of the alliance.

from the San Francisco Chronicle:

And as for that unscripted moment that ended up on Fox News, the one at a rally where he questioned Sen. Barack Obama about the American Dream - and whether he'd have to pay higher taxes under Obama's plan?

Seems Joe, who is actually Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, told the conservative Web site familysecuritymatters.org that catching the Democratic presidential candidate off guard "was actually my intent."

...he owes Ohio about $1,200 in personal income taxes, according to the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas records. And there's a 2007 civil filing that shows a record for a $1,200 owed to a creditor, St. Charles Mercy Hospital.

So Wurzelbacher has an active lien on his property filed in January 2007, records from the Ohio Department of Taxation show.

AND, here's a bit more on the facts, esp. the "spread the wealth around" remark in context, from CNN:

click here.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM

I don't think the issue is the tax issue at all. I am sure he can adapt to whatever the tax code is at the time. He has his facts wrong I am sure..as do most people, even tax experts, when discussing taxes on the cuff.

I think the issue is whether we as a people, like we the people, have the right to collectively try to destroy this man without enough evidence that he needs to be destroyed..and some people do need to be put down, no doubt about it. Reading the comments here and stuff in blogs and editorials is painful. There are probably hardworking men and women in your communities with no license, expired licenses, trying to meet license requirements that vary from block to block as seems to be the case in Ohio..and here we sit trying to crucify him.

I talked to my "plumber" this morning at McDonald's. He said the poor guy is being treated unfairly and he himself is an apprentice and jumping through the hoops is daunting. I hope the union he had signed some sort of apprenticeship request will assist him. It doesn't sound likely but maybe they will.

We do not know, at least I don't, whether this guy is an out and out fraud, which is what he is being called, I believe on this list but it could be elsewhere, or he is an angel of mercy operating legally in the townships he can operate in, helping elderly widows unthaw their pipes in the frozen Ohio winters for half the price of someone with more certifications. I don't know. But unless he is actually hurting someone by working 12 or whatever hour days, I say don't hurt him, and his son, and this could affect his custody arrangement.

I think this is like the chickens in the chicken coop finding a weakness in another chicken and pecking them to death. It is a test of decenty, not someone screwed up over the tax code. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:14 PM

But who is "trying to destroy" him? Any significant damage would come from media attention which has been focussed on him by McCain's arbitrary and somewhat irresponsible decision to use him as a weapopn for attacking Obama. That media attention may have had the effect of making the tax authorities and the hospital more likely to pursue him, and drawing attention to his lack of professional plumbing qualifications. And I can imagination that stuff like that might even have an impact on other thigs, such as custody arrangements.

But that's not because of any kind of mobbing, or because of silly stuff on a thread here or elsewhere in the Internet. The media have their own priorities, and their own nasty ways, and McCain knows that very well, and chose to disregard it, for political advantage.

However, given the way the world works I think it's likely that Joe will end up better off. He comes across as the kind of articulate bloke who could well make something out of his new-found celebrity status.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM

Yeah!!..Maybe he can get in with Obama, Freddie and Fannie, and get some under the table money with ol' Barraky, enough to pay off his back taxes!! Then vote a bill to save the moose! and bring Sarah to face trial..even go to the supreme court to make legal citizens ineligible, to have jobs here in America...unless they support his ideas, and look the other way!!!..That should do it!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:29 PM

From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

He comes across as the kind of articulate bloke who could well make something out of his new-found celebrity status....

...just like Obama!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

Or just get on TV chat shows and pseudo-reality shows and such like. There'll be agents who know how to exploit this kind of "celebrity", to make money for their clients and themselves, and you can bet they'll be in touch.

If he's on for that, if the media storm starts to die down, a very effective move might be for him to announce that having thought it over he now thinks Obama is the right man... He'd be right up in the headlines again.

After all the chances are that Obama is going to win, and he might want his plumbing fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:58 PM

CNN news today said the public is already really, really tired of the "Joe the plumber" phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:04 PM

Nobody is trying to "destroy" Joe the "plumber." By his own admission, he wanted to confront Obama and "catch him off guard." The ploy failed when Obama gave him—and the whole country—a straight and reasonable answer to the question he posed.

What is really at issue here is that McCain is lying through his pearly-white dentures about what Obama actually said. He's telling the Big Lie, and knowingly misrepresenting Obama's tax policy in a desparate effort to deceive the voters.

And does the self-proclaimed "maverick" really want to see change in Washington. D. C.? Well, I think he showed his true colors with his harping on the Joe the plumber gimmick and endlessly repeating the same lie. Trying to deceive the voters has been the main focus of the Bush administration for the past eight years. McCain's just more of the same.

But then, it's beginning to look like that's all he's got.

That is what's going on here!

Let's just hope that Joe, the real plumber, is too smart to fall for this.

Don Firth

P. S. I don't see how one can say that Joe the unlicensed plumber is being "destroyed" if some people are asking him (God help us!!) to run for political office.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:03 PM

Well, I can't speak for anyone else about what they are doing with respect to this plumber, but anyone who looks at my posts in this thread can see that my criticism of Joe the Plumber has been about his question about Obama's tax plan. I don't really give a flying fuck about any other aspect of his life. I only care about how he was misrepresenting his own circumstances and lying about the effect that Obama's tax plan would have on him. That is in no way an effort to "destroy" him.

I would suggest that anyone who is trying to say that my posts have been about "destroying" Joe the Plumber is grandstanding, and is also seriously confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:01 PM

In the meantime, McCain is still spreading the lies:

"The response from Senator Obama and his campaign yesterday was to attack Joe," Mr. McCain said. "People are digging through his personal life, and he has TV crews camped out in front of his house. He didn't ask for Senator Obama to come to his house. He wasn't recruited or prompted by our campaign. He just asked a question. And Americans ought to be able to ask Senator Obama tough questions without being smeared and targeted with political attacks."

1) Obama didn't come to his house
2) McCain brought on the news hounds
3) Lots of people have asked Obama questions and never been smeared

McCain/Palin are doing ALL of the smearing!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:30 PM

"McCain/Palin are doing ALL of the smearing!"

ALL???????

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:37 PM

QUOTE
"McCain/Palin are doing ALL of the smearing!"

ALL???????
UNQUOTE

Well, there are some on Mudcat too, to be fair... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:42 PM

There is???...I got so much smear on me, it looks like jungle camo!...
..and actually, I've been polite!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM

"Yeah!!..Maybe he can get in with Obama, Freddie and Fannie, and get some under the table money with ol' Barraky, enough to pay off his back taxes!! Then vote a bill to save the moose! and bring Sarah to face trial..even go to the supreme court to make legal citizens ineligible, to have jobs here in America...unless they support his ideas, and look the other way!!!..That should do it!! "

Slander is us. Or at least some of us

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:29 AM

Ahh, finally! The tag team..actually we're missing a couple more.

The above comment that you posted of mine, was satire, ok??..Calm down. It was meant to point out the pre-occupation with smaller non-issues, at this critical time in our history as a nation.
Let's be small!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:02 AM

The problem is you can't just take out one man, especially when he is so iconic. You can shut him and his boss down for compliance for something..OSHA, zoning, taxes, certifications. Then you are more or less obliged, or perhaps you smell blood in the water, to go after more and more struggling businesses, in a time where we might need every hand on deck that we can keep.

Now is not the time to destroy people, and yes, that is what many people are instinctively doing. One thing I think we can do is let the union and the certifying board know that we are looking at fairness in this, and it is already happening of course. Read the news. He can probably make some sort of hay out of this, but there are a lot of people in his situation, right in the middle of the country, with ethnic-sounding names and strong backs. People who used to be called the salt of the earth and the backbone of America. And instead of supporting them we are looking for their old traffic tickets.

One thing that needs to be done is a nationwide basic certification for many trades and professions. It keeps skills from being able to travel to where there is a need, like Katrina perhaps. Then states could add specific endorsements for their own unique situations, like subzero welding or whatever. Needed for teaching, nursing, doctors, lawyers, all sorts of building trades. Basic universal plus state addons. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:04 AM

Who in this thread is trying to destroy Joe the Plumber?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:26 AM

Actually, there is something about jimmyT's post that I think needs picking up. I learned it during the period that my late wife was breathing impaired. She later died from her emphysema, plus a chest infection, plus the incompetence of Medway Maritime hospital.

But for years she managed her breathing problems well, and worked.

If she had caught a respiratory infection from even a commuter - and heaven forfend that she should risk infection from a health professional (a dentist, say) who was supposed to be treating her, that would have made her very ill and could have killed her.

People like jimmyT, who work with "a runny nose" and twist their employees arms to work when they too are infectious are possible killers. Don't do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:55 AM

Well, well, well...

Seems that Joe the UnPlumber is now angry that he continues to recieve so much media attention???

Guess it wouldn't occur to him that if he'd quit accepting their invitations for interviews that his 15 minutes of fame, and the attention, would fade away...

I'm beginning to understand just how Joe couldn'r even figure out how to get thru his apprenticeship to be a real plumber...

(But, Bobert, word on the street is that McCain, should his boys steal the election, is going to offer Joe the UnPlumber a cabinet position... What do you think about that???)

Well, yeah, given his VP pick, I can see that...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:30 AM

The one who really deserves our sympathy is the poor plumber whose business name really is Joe The Plumber. His phone has been ringing off the hook with everything from requests for interviews to death threats 24/7. Imagine how much business he is losing through lack of sleep and busy signals that his customers are getting.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:55 AM

"Joe Martinez, a plumber in Colorado, is featured in "robo-calls'' in Colorado pitching for the Democrat's tax plans, the Huffington Post reports.

Unlike Republican John McCain's Joe the Plumber, the one featured in the final debate on the question of "spreading the wealth around,'' and unlike McCain's robo-calls, which link Obama to the "washed up'' terrorist Bill Ayers, the Obama sponsored plumber-starring robo-calls are talking about issues.

The HuffPost reports that a spokesman for the Colorado Democratic Party confirms a rough script that goes something like this:

"During this week's debate, Barack Obama talked about cutting taxes for middle class families like mine, lowering health care costs for everyone and bringing the change we need in Washington. John McCain ignored the issues and used the debate to launch false attacks against Barack Obama.

" In fact, McCain - for the third debate in a row - didn't even say the words 'middle class'. So, take it from Joe the plumber, if you want a president who will put middle class families first - join me in voting for Barack Obama. Paid for by the Colorado Democratic Party.''"

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM

For me, one of the biggest issues of this campaign is health care. I believe Obama will do his best to push through a reform of our health care system, which right now works only for those who are either healthy or who are able to get jobs with companies big enough to be able to offer an affordable (well, relatively affordable) health care plan that won't ditch you if you get sick by raising your rates beyond what you could realistically pay. I still don't get how McCain's proposal is going to help anyone...'splain it to me please? He's going to tax health care benefits, and give folks a $5,000 credit towards buying health care? If you've got any kind of preexisting condition $5,000 is a drop in the bucket.

'Compassionate Conservatism' just won't address huge social issues like the health care crisis in our country. People should not be put in the position of having to beg their doctor or dentist to give them a break on their treatments so they won't have to choose between putting food on the table or getting medical attention. That only works in a very, very limited number of individual cases. We need a system where all of us can access medical care affordably and with dignity. Other countries in the developed world have that. Why can't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:49 PM

McCain really has rather a nerve to try to blame his opponents for "People are digging through his personal life, and he has TV crews camped out in front of his house." That is entirely McCain's doing, when he repeatedly dragged this man into the limelight, as a political stunt.

Without that Joe would have been just one among thousands of people who have asked the candidates questions - it's not as if he had tripped Obama up into making some gaffe. Just a straightforward polite question and a straightforward polite answer. Big deal. Not like Quayle's "potatoe" moment, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:07 PM

Joe the fraud and McCain's crazy idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

If I understand McCain's health care program correctly, it seems to me that there are a couple of simple and glaringly obvious problems with it.   He says he'll give people a $5,000 tax credit when they buy health insurance.

Well, that's very nice. But—

First, you have to have enough money to ante up for the health insurance in the first place. If you can't afford to do that, you don't get the $5,000 tax credit. And second, it's not as if he's going to send you a check for $5,000. You just get a $5,000 credit on your income tax. In short, if you buy health insurance, you can deduct up to $5,000. I vaguely remember that you are already allowed to deduct health insurance premiums from your income tax.

So what's THIS all about?

If I don't understand McCain's health care program correctly, can someone please enlighten me better than McCain himself has?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM

Be fair, McCain very likely doesn't understand that stuff either. Taxes are complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

I have had not had health insurance coverage most of my life.

When I was in college, I was covered under my mother's plan with her employer.
From about 1985 to 1990 I was covered under a plan that paid for some health care with my employer (no dental or vision).
From 2007 to present I have some health care coverage that includes some dental with my employer (no vision coverage).

The rest of the time, I postponed care because I could not afford it and when emergencies came up, had to go in debt on credit cards and home equity to pay for it.

The difficulty in getting health care in this country is a disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM

Sorry to get on a rant, but it is about time that you are at least made aware of a different way of thinking than Iever see here in this community os supposedly "liberal thinkers."

jimmyt, given the same set of circumstances, namely, the wherewithal to be able to practice such husbandry in your practice and environs, I think a lot of Mudcatters would do the same thing.

The state of health services availability to all in this nation is deplorable. And now McCain wants to tax those who get it through work. Let's make sure everyone is miserable this way instead of making the insurance companies miserable by taking the "insurance" out of "health insurance." Why are these politicians plans all looking at pouring money down the rat-hole of for-profit insurance companies that pay their investors first then spread the rest out for customers? And isn't it interesting, that after money is paid to insurance companies, the tax credit is given by the federal goverment, acting like a major subsidy to those same private for-profit insurers. Nationalized or a single-payer system would be a much better use of all of this money. But insurance companies are insidiously woven into every corner of politics, so I won't hold my breath.

Amazing how in this time of financial market upheaval the health insurance folks seem to be off on their own protected island. Talk about contributors to the current problems and you need to include those guys as well.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM

Excellent point, SRS. I remember, whenever we would drive through Hartford CT, seeing huge blocks of massive multi-storied buildings, one to a block, owned by one or another insurance company. The magnitude is staggering. BIG business.

Don Firth, that's me wondering, too. How in the aitch, if one doesn't have the income to purchase health insurance in the first place, woudl the tax credit do anything to help? It's not as if most people would have it in savings, etc.

We need single-payer, universal healthcare. It is shameful and really fucked up that we do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:23 PM

'Let's make sure everyone is miserable this way instead of making the insurance companies miserable by taking the "insurance" out of "health insurance."'

BRAVO!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:40 PM

Another thing I think ought to be pointed out on the subject of availability of health care. It's really great that some health care practitioners and dental care practitioners are willing to help some people out if they're in dire need. That's great. But nobody wants to be in a position to have to accept (and perhaps even beg for) charity in order to get their health care needs met. And it isn't possible for anyone to get all of their health and dental care needs met by having generous doctors and dentists who will do the work for free.

Anyone with any respect at all for human dignity would not expect people to have to live their whole lives under such circumstances. And it doesn't matter how hard someone works, if no insurance company is willing to cover them (or will only do so for a small fortune, and even then won't cover any pre-existing conditions), they're just shit out of luck. There's nothing they can do to fix that problem on their own.

Add to all of that the number of people with very good insurance who are being dropped by their insurance carriers the moment they get sick, or whose carriers refuse to provide needed treatment, and only a heartless person would say the country is better off with the system we have now.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

I have not read any of their website, yet, but I have noticed their ads, so decided to have a look: American Medical Association's Voice for the Uninsured.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

McCain's comment on that in the third debate was:

"Sen. Obama wants to set up health care bureaucracies, take over the health care of America through -- as he said, his object is a single payer system. If you like that, you'll love Canada and England."

Clearly he thought that last bit was a clincher.

Well, I don't know about Canada. But you'd have a job finding any patients in England who would be tempted for a second by the existing American system, even with the modifications McCain is proposing. And that includes the Conservatives.

Yes, I know you've got some good hospitals and some state of the art medicine. But that's not much use if you can't get into those hospitals or gain access to that state of the art medicine.