BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:10 PM

OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:14 PM

Art, instead of 600, I'm willing to say that 200 are real military bases, renovations because they need to be renovated, etc. So then there are only 400. The point wasn't the number; rather, the point was the purpose.

BTW, I have no intent to get into arguments with anyone over my views. Most folks will think I'm crazy or paranoid or stupid or whatever. In this instance, I hope they're right. Nothing would please me more.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,you can call me al
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:31 PM

"There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam held, and had in his possesion reserves of poison gas; with the ability to construct and deliver biologcal and chemical weapons."

dave, you can call me al. According to all the evidence presented to us in the media (the David Kay report and the recently closed CIA report) not only were there no WMDs, there is no evidence of anything being moved to syria or anyplace else. but you have no doubt. do you have info that we average americans can't get or are you just imagining things?

"in fact there is some evidence (Israeli Intel) that stuff was..."

where do you get your info on israli intelligence?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 02:01 PM

"and had in his possesion reserves of poison gas;"

The above is a pretty good bet, you can call me al> (You can call me Bruce.) Hussein had used the stuff on the Kurdish population. That we know for fact. So, indeed he had WMDs. He was also working pon nuclear capability. That too is fact. He had a cyclotron way the hell out in the desert, and unless he was doing blood separation, the likelyhood is he was using it to do isotope separation. However, Hussein is gone now as are whatever WMDs might have been there. So the question remains: When will the US leave?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 02:05 PM

Oh, yeah. I have been meaning to ask: Does anyone know about how many nuclear weapons the US still has in its arsenal? To the nearest hundred would be OK. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 05 - 02:53 PM

The poison gas had passed its "use by" date. All of Saddam's chemical weapons were too old to do much damage to anyone, and they had been accounted for and put under seal by the UN inspections teams.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 07:53 PM

Dear Guest Al, Google it and you will find many sources of information on the subject. Here is one to save you the trouble of looking. http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 05 - 08:07 PM

Dave, that's exactly the same kind of "intelligence" (from expatriates with an axe to grind) that got the US and Britain on that wild goose chase for WMD in Iraq. Many members of the real intelligence community (not the "Office of Special Plans" from which the Bush administration got their "intelligence") know that you need to take what the ex-pats have to say with quite a large grain of salt.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 08:15 PM

Very true CarolC, but coupled with the fact that at the same time this was being released by the Dutch, Israeli media were also stating the same thing by other sources. I think it is difficult to believe anything put out in the media, but one has to remain objective and view the possibility of this being true. If Saddam had nothing to hide, why was he so elusive and belligerant with the UN inspectors?

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 05 - 08:20 PM

Someone knocks on your door and says " We are going to search your house for a three legged giraffe, then blow the s**t out of the neighbourhood." Wouldn't you be beligerent?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 08:27 PM

If the someone who knocks on my door has the superior firepower of the USA or UN then I would hand over the three legged giraffe in the basement; or make bloody sure they got access to every room in my house.

On a personal note Guest, very few people who knock on my door have superior firepower; and very few who would be inclined to get beligerant with me when I opened the door. *BFG* ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:11 PM

I tend to trust the people who were assigned to make those assesments, and who have established that there were no usable WMD. Like I said before... those chemicals were too old to be of much danger to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 10:43 PM

CarolC let me tell you an old story about experts who had to take war seriously. Italians decided to surrender peacefully and not support the Nazis after the allies invaded. There were thousands of Italians who owned military firearms that never surrendered them. The USA and Britain held an amnesty to recover privately held military firearms. Thousands of old shotguns,bolt action rifles and revolvers were handed in to the "Expert weapons collectors"   while many thousands of sleek, modern semi automatics and machine guns were greased up and hidden away. They were never found.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:08 PM

Except that in this case, Dave, the aggressor nation is the United States of America.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:10 PM

Plus, we know where he got the chemicals. He bought them from us.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:33 PM

CarolC, My point was that sometimes Experts find what they are supposed to find, and make their assesments from flawed information. As for purchasing chemicals, it would be too simplistict to say that the USA is/was the only source of chemicals. Far more dangerous substances can be purchased from mercenary suppliers worldwide, and we know Iraqs former leader had no scruples in using illegal weapons. Quite frankly the military surplus store formerly known as the Soviet Union scares the hell out of me even today.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:59 PM

It scares me too--but then so does the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 12:48 AM

Maybe, Dave. But the US sold them to him so he could use them (as our proxy) to kill people the US wanted killed, on behalf of the US. And therein lies the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 05 - 03:09 AM

"while many thousands of sleek, modern semi automatics and machine guns were greased up and hidden away. They were never found." Dave AM

But you know they were there, right? How?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 May 05 - 08:49 AM

Ebbie, Look at the IRA, in 500 years the British could not disarm them, why? (a much smaller population and landmass than Iraq) You could also look into US history, something tells me it was almost similar in 1776. :) The British had the same trouble in Afghanistan

The Italian example I used was from personal knowledge, related to the experiences of some of the officers involved in the collection of these weapons during WW2. You might find some documented evidence of what I say, but I do not have any source to direct you too.

CarolC, I am not arguing with you, what you are saying is not the issue. The fact remains Saddams supply was not limited to those chemicals. Let me give you a reference to a modern day arms smuggling problem to illustrate how easy it is to obtain weapons.
http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsJuly2001/newsbeat1.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: mg
Date: 16 May 05 - 12:38 PM

They don't need the weapons per se. All they need is the money to buy them with or fanatics who will somehow concoct them, steal them, liberate them etc. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 12:55 PM

And the point I'm making, Dave, is that the US didn't regard Saddam as a "bad guy" as long as he was killing the people we told him to. And even when he invaded Quwait, he thought he was doing it with our blessing. We set him up as a straw man so we could use him to do our dirty work and then knock him down when we had enough dirt on him to "justify" invading his country, appropriating its natural resources, and using it as our strategic military base in the Middle East.

One of the members of the Bush administration was quoted as saying "we are an empire... we make reality... people will be studying us and our methods".

We don't need to study their methods in retrospect. We can observe them right now, as they are happening. The patterns are more than obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:24 PM

Sorry, folks. I don't mean to be a bigger pain in the arse than I usually am, but does anyone know about how many nuclear weapons remain in the US arsenal?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:27 PM

Oops. Correction... *Kuwait*.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:39 PM

dave.. you actually believe in the wmds? and that bush was fed bad intelligence?..
I would have thought that Wolfowitz's Vanity Fair interview would have made that clear..
wolfowitz ... 'for bureaucratic and other reasons we finally settled on the threat of wmds as a justification for invading Iraq..'

Paul O'Neill secretary of the treasury, said Bush wanted to go after Iraq as soon as he came into office.

Richard Clarke, the day after 9/11, Bush said '9/11 - Saddam Hussein find me a link'

I dont believe that Bush is just a useful idiot for the neocons, he isnt intellectually engaging, however he is politically astute, and along with the evil genius Rove (who has a record of winning elections in any way possible) they all make a team.
..
for a good long term analysis, I would recommend Gwynne Dyers FUTURE TENSE, he correctly predicted that it would turn into a quagmire for the US.. (You may not be aware of it, but Rove had planned for George BUsh to start his re-election campaign with an appearance in Baghdad.
in the spring of 04, boy was that ever optimistic).

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:53 PM

I think that the west has always played off different leaders of these countries for years. The very borders of these countries were set up by the western powers and they made bad choices.
We cannot blame Bush et al for all this trouble, much of it was inherited. Now we are reaping the whirlwind so to speak. My only concern is that the battle being joined, we have to win it. Restoring decent living standards in Iraq will stabilize some of the situation I just don't see it happening soon. Bush has become a legend in his own mind, and that is unfortunate fact. Lets hope sober minds and decent people of the world gain more control of international politics in the near future. I won't be holding my breath while waiting thought ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 02:55 PM

I don't blame Bush at all. He's just a puppet.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 02:59 PM

Oops... forgot this bit: I don't know the answer to your question, brucie, but the people in charge here are creating a new class of nuclear weapon that they intend to use in conventional war situations as "bunker busters", etc. So I would say that our nuclear arsenal is getting bigger rather than smaller.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 05 - 05:06 PM

That's not true Carol, but I'm not going to go 'nuclear' in this thread. You should do some research before you write up your assumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 05:31 PM

Which points, specifically are you disagreeing with, GUEST, 16 May 05 - 05:06 PM?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 May 05 - 05:46 PM

its no secret the US is working on mini-nukes, to be used as bunker busters etc, if thats what GUEST is trying to deny..

but to all those that claim the war will bring democracy to the Iraqi people, how do you feel about the latest news from Uzbekistan.
5000 people demonstrate, 500 die at protest after Uzbekistans military opens fire at a demonstration last week.
Remember that Islam Karimov (president for life) is buddies with George W. Bush, because Uzbekistan is one of the allies in the war on terror
since providing an airbase in 2001. Karimov also received 500$million US in aid (10 times the amount he received in 1998)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 16 May 05 - 06:21 PM

Here's some background on the development and production of the "mini-nukes"...

http://www.brook.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/lasg.htm

http://www.nukestrat.com/us/afn/B61-11.htm

And various members of the Bush administration have been very vocal about advocating for the use of these weapons in a first strike pre-emptive capacity.