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homage to Rise Up Singing

DigiTrad:
NOT IN THE BOOK


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Ref 30 Dec 08 - 07:09 AM
Deckman 30 Dec 08 - 08:20 AM
Peter T. 30 Dec 08 - 09:48 AM
MickyMan 30 Dec 08 - 09:55 AM
Don Firth 30 Dec 08 - 12:21 PM
Stringsinger 30 Dec 08 - 01:12 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Dec 08 - 01:59 PM
Roger in Baltimore 30 Dec 08 - 02:30 PM
Ref 30 Dec 08 - 07:43 PM
Desert Dancer 30 Dec 08 - 10:23 PM
Desert Dancer 30 Dec 08 - 10:26 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Dec 08 - 10:40 PM
astro 30 Dec 08 - 10:56 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Dec 08 - 11:20 PM
Don Firth 30 Dec 08 - 11:31 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 31 Dec 08 - 12:10 AM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 08 - 09:06 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 31 Dec 08 - 09:29 AM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 08 - 10:01 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 31 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 08 - 10:50 AM
Deckman 31 Dec 08 - 10:54 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 Dec 08 - 11:02 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 31 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM
astro 31 Dec 08 - 01:11 PM
Don Firth 31 Dec 08 - 02:05 PM
Stringsinger 31 Dec 08 - 03:26 PM
Joe_F 31 Dec 08 - 05:48 PM
Ref 31 Dec 08 - 06:42 PM
Deckman 31 Dec 08 - 07:06 PM
Don Firth 31 Dec 08 - 07:53 PM
Joe Offer 31 Dec 08 - 08:46 PM
Deckman 31 Dec 08 - 08:54 PM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 08 - 11:43 PM
Don Firth 31 Dec 08 - 11:52 PM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 08 - 11:56 PM
Jack Campin 01 Jan 09 - 07:19 AM
Patrick_Costello 01 Jan 09 - 07:33 AM
Ron Davies 01 Jan 09 - 12:49 PM
Ref 01 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM
Ron Davies 01 Jan 09 - 01:21 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM
Ron Davies 01 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 09 - 02:25 PM
Tootler 01 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM
M.Ted 01 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM
M.Ted 01 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM
Jack Campin 01 Jan 09 - 05:23 PM
Leadfingers 01 Jan 09 - 05:41 PM
Leadfingers 01 Jan 09 - 05:41 PM
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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:09 AM

What you're describing isn't a sing-along. It's a choir.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:20 AM

I'm enjoying the various postings to this thread. I'm reading a LOT of different viewpoints and that's GREAT. This is what MC does best ... bringing many different folks together, with differing viewpoints, and let 'em thrash it out in a peaceful and sensible manner. And, as passionate as the varying views are, everyone has remained respectfull of different opinions. YIPPEE! Bob


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:48 AM

Some of this now strikes me as philosophical/psychological. A related example would be the question of surtitles at the opera. My own feeling is that surtitles are great, but they do present a problem, which is that the part of the brain that reads (let's call it left brain, though I am left handed, and all this brain division stuff strikes me as anti-leftie, but let that pass for the moment) is engaged in reading surtitles, while the right brain is the part that should be engaged in the opera spectacle. I have wrestled with this for awhile, and can't really decide: but I do think there is a lessening of the impact with the brain switching back and forth (though the brain is pretty swift). The reading of songbooks and lyric sheets maybe strikes some people as a lesser experience to the "true" oral tradition.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: MickyMan
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:55 AM

This thread got me thinking once again of how much I love this book, but hesitate to use it because of the small type. I went to the Blood-Peterson's website and I now vow to purchase the larger format book along with the demo CD as it is listed there. For all of its limitations it is still truly a great resource for getting good singable songs.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:21 PM

Ron O., this is not just an "old session that is still continuing among the same people."   We do involve new people and have been all along. It is not a static group or a "clique," as you are trying to characterize it. And as far as assembling interested people are concerned, you missed the point of what I said. The process begins with a phone call or an e-mail, then the word goes out from there.

When we do have an "invitation only" event, it's a whole different thing.

I'm really impressed that, all the way from New Jersey, you know more about what's going on in the Seattle area than I do and that you are telling me the deeper meaning of what's really happening here.

Ron—I'm here, on the scene. You're not.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:12 PM

EBarnacle, good to know RUS is in large type. Is it a tome? The size of a dictionary?

Can you see it if you put it on the floor without having to look down too often?

Can you add verses to it on the spot? Maybe it should include blank pages. :)

That said, I think it's as Ron says a good introductory method of group singing. At the Old Town School they experimented with old slide and bouncing ball technique.

In the best of all possible worlds, everyone would know the songs by heart. But this shouldn't be a hindrance for people who enjoy singing together.

Whatever brings people together to sing is all right in my book (RUS or otherwise).

It's nice when there are those who can add to the singing of the song by introducing new verses that they "remember". It gives the sing more vitality.

I think a balance between the songbook and solo memorized verses is good or even cheat sheets with those of us who are not so good at remembering the songs we used to know.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:59 PM

Relax Don.

I am trying to have a conversation with you and you yourself gave this description of the gathering you attend - "And so it goes, just like we did it forty, fifty years ago. The only difference is that now we are geezers."   That would lead the reader to believe it is the same group - or a clique. You also gave a description of the Seattle Folklore Societys sings that differs from the description that they give on their website. I would love to hear from others that are involved.

So, to reply to your statement - no, I do not know what is going on in Seattle, but I am trying to piece together what you are telling us.

Please do not be defensive, this is just a discussion.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 02:30 PM

Hello everyone,

Whatever happened to the threatened RUS II? Itwas in the works 10 years ago, but I have heard nothing of it lately. I used to sing with a monthly pot luck group. RUS was a part of it, but it wasn't the Bible. It seemed most helpful to new people who found it to be a book that had some songs they knew. It enabled them to get started in the group. I've moved from Maryland, but I stay in touch with some members. They have so many "new" people, that I do not recognize many names. However, there are some old timers as well. The joy was always that it was love of singing not ability that was encouraged.

Roger in Baltimoe


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:43 PM

I've been waiting for RUS II for that same ten years. Every time I ask, I'm told it will be out "next year."

Thanks to Frank H (and Ron again) for words of wisdom.

Gee, I was trying to be DIS-respectful!


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:23 PM

Again, the "larger print" version is basically normal-sized print, instead of the microscopic original version; the print is not actually large, like "large-print" books. :-(

Could be that the original print size increases the likelihood that a user will have their nose buried in the book...

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:26 PM

Forgot to say -- I think it's the same number of pages -- probably a photo-enlargement-- they're just bigger, so it's more like 8-1/2" or 9" by 11", instead of the original 7" by 9-3/4".

~ B in T


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:40 PM

The "large print" edition is 120% of than the original, which I guess means that the type is 20% bigger.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: astro
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:56 PM

It's funny, but I was looking over the Sing Out Aug/Sept/Oct. '93 issue and the First Words by Mark D. Moss was about this very same topic. A defense of using RUS, but with the injunction in the last paragraph about this topic in the article of:

"...I don't intend to demean the achievements or skills of great singers, but we all possess the basic tools to sing socially. So, damn it, sing from book all you want, people, sing from Sing Out! Sing from your heart. Just cut the "it's got to be in the book" crap, OK?"

Sounds about right to me....in these times we should be singing and singing together, it'll get us through it...

Astro


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:20 PM

I agree with Mark 100%


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:31 PM

Ron, my statement above, "And so it goes, just like we did it forty, fifty years ago. The only difference is that now we are geezers" was apparently misleading, for which I apologize. The fact is that what we do remains essentially the same, but there have been considerable changes in personnel. Walt Robertson, Stan James, and John Dwyer are no longer with us. Many of what might be considered "the original crew" no longer live in Seattle. Sandy Paton left in the early 1950s. Patti McLaughlin remarried and moved to California. People come, people go, and life goes on. When it comes down to it, the "old geezers" that are still going seem to have dwindled to Bob Nelson, plus Moose (Bob Tomson), Gary and Molly Oberbillig when they can get into town, and a few others.

But don't think that our gatherings are dwindling. Far from it. From the original Seattle Song Circle of the late 1970s and very briefly into the 1980s (and I reiterate that I was one of the charter members of SSC) there were a substantial number of defectors when it morphed into a "singing out of a book" group. They now get together with the somewhat irregular gatherings of "us geezers," and also go to monthly sessions that Stewart hosts (which most of us do also).

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 12:10 AM

I am grateful for you "geezers", as I hopefully continue on the path to geezerdom myself!

I think Mark Moss's statement sums it up best. In 2008, soon to be 2009, the younger generations are faced with different technologies and diversions. The incentive to join a singing circle is different - although there are many that would want to and enjoy it once they get there.   Mark's summation that the book is a good tool is one that I agree with 100% - but it should not be the ONLY source, nor should any book or sheet of paper.   Once these people get started, they should be able to drop the crutche and enjoy the experience - but I hestitate to remove their crutches until their confidence is there.    Once they are hooked, they will in turn share the music with future generations.   

Basically, I think everyone on this thread has the same selfless motivation to perpetuate this music and to insure that future generations realize that singing is meant to be participatory, not an exhibition sport.   The passions that are shared on Mudcat are evident, and hopefully we will all take a step back to put ourselves in the shoes of others and make them feel welcome so that their gifts can be shared. There is nothing more rewarding than watching someone take pride in their own voice and abilities.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 09:06 AM

Last night I was at the weekly shanty session in Gloucester (USA) & the crowd had already dwinddled down to about 50 by the time I arrived (about 10:45), much more than half of that was joining in on most of the songs & probably half that leading the majority of the singing. I looked about & saw 2 books & 2 notebooks (no RUS) but only saw them being used twice. These are not shanty singers or "afficiandos", it's advertized, it's public & it's open & it was a hair raiser. When you see the bar raising their glasses & applauding the crowd & cheering song after song, except for when someone's singing out of a book then you need to take note of the dynamics. Now the 2 fellers that sang out of the book or off their note sheets were supported & their efforts were applauded but it was with far less enthusiasm & the choruses never reached the roof rafters, why, the flow or the tide was for the moment slackened & that's how it is. Now in a session of this size a couple of books & songs being sung out of books aren't gonna matter much but if you start to increase this by much it won't take long before there's no flow. This happens over the course 3 hrs & it's continues from the start at 9 right up to when the barwoman turns the lights off at 12 midnight. I see less books & notepads now than when this 1st got it's feet wet maybe 3 or 4 yrs ago & it's only gotten stronger & better as less people relied on the paper products. Lots of the waterfront people come just to drink but they come to this bar on this night because it's a blast even if singing or singing shanties is not your thing. There's a regular crowd of twentysometings (there's also a regular group of 60 somethings too) that now make this evening & place the place of choice, I'd have to guess that maybe it's far from the boring crowd. Given a choice, I would take a sing in a bar like this than a sing in a bookstore or library anyday, matter of fact after a few sings like this I might never want to see or hear the inside of a book sing again.
Saturday I'll head to Mystic & I will bet dollars to donuts that the sing there will be no different with the exception of the books. Again this is also the case at the monthly shanty session & the weekly Friday night sessions at the Press Room in Portsmouth (USA). So it's not a one time or a one place occurance, it just happens that both places frown (but don't prohibit) on books (less on notepads & paper).

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 09:29 AM

Barry, I'm sure the situation at Mystic will be the same - and from what you've described, the shanty session that you attended is EXACTLY what we are talking about.

The individuals who had the books may not have "soared" and raised the rafters as others did, but from your description they were not made to feel like they were doing anything wrong by using a book - and they probably had a wonderful time. Perhaps next time they will follow the lead and not need a book. Perhaps they will. The main thing I get from your description is that they were given a chance to be comfortable and participate.   I think that is all anyone has said on this thread.

Venues shouldn't "frown" when they see a book, nor should they encourage people to use them. Learn by example and have patience and understanding to help others along.

"Book sings" are not your cup of tea, but they have their place.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 10:01 AM

Yup, they have their place, except that many of what they've replaced was once healthy & virbrant sings that got dumbed down to it's lowest common denorminator by the overrunning of the RUS, which brought all this into fashion in the 1st place. This is what I'm hearing happened in Seattle & it was what I saw happen in San Francisco & Boston & what I've heard from a good many other places too. Yes it has it's place Ron but not when it replaces what was far better in the first place (who's to say what's far better, the absence of the outburst of outward emotions). What's sad is that in some communities sings have gone underground to avoid being overrun by bookies, now that sucks for sing/song survival.

No one should ever be made to feel unwelcomed or as if they're doing something wrong when it comes to lifting their voices but no one should be allowed to piss onto a parade either just because they aren't socially aware of the underpinnings of a good session. If you find a decent sing & no one's singing from books don't you start bringing them into the picture, leave them at home or don't go, it got to be good with out them, let well enough alone.

I'm not hearing much about this from folks over in the Uk or Ireland and I'm wondering, not having been to any singing things there in almost 3 decades if in their clubs, bars & where ever they hold their sings if they have encountered this "from the book singing" thing?

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM

I have to disagree with you about the "pissing onto a parade" as any social gathering is a evolving entity and as you say, who is really to say what's "far better".   The neighborhood changes and the fact that these sessions can survive and attract members means they are doing something right.   There is no cookie cutter solution to all, but there is a need to contemplate just why things change and to have the patience to help others along.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 10:50 AM

Ron, I grew up in a ever changing neighorhood, changes aren't always for the better just because they happen & just because a neighorhood survives doesn't mean that it's what's best for that community it just means that it has continued, sometimes against the odds & sometimes it'd be better off dying. As far as contemplating why things (sings in this case) have changed (it is the topic here) that's what I'm talking about and from my take on it, I hear the same complaints from many singers, "there's no decent place to go to, to get together to sing". They don't go out to sings anymore because they've been overrun by bookies, where they onced had a few good sings to choose from they now don't bother. Oh they'll get together at a party here & there but unless they know of a sing that's enjoyable & where there's no books, they won't go. So you say who needs the snobs, right? And they say who needs us, we'll just shut up & stick to our own & in some places & cases they go hiding.
Right now some one I know is trying to get a pub singing session started up in Boston, I tried this 10 yrs ago, to no avail, hopefully she'll have better luck. I'm biting my lip, waiting to see how this flies. I went to the 1st one & there were books & papers all about, it didn't look or sound like it had a good running start or a good chance of getting off the ground. I'll bet if enough strong & good singers gather in the beginning & leave the books out it'll fly, if there's gonna be another show of books all round I'll bet that the strong singers will just sit this one out too. I'll get back to on that.
In Boston there are plenty of good/great/strong singers that are buried in the woodwork & I truly believe that they'll stay there, where they've been for so long because they don't expect that they'll be any of the kind of sing that they were used to prior to the 'book singing style' coming into fashion. I am not rying to capture the past & I'm not trying to change the course of evoloution, I'm only pointing out the differences between a sing that's got something that everyone can enjoy from a sing that very few enjoy, the cry "elite" & the others retort with "you've driven us out". And I hate to say it but from what I'm reading those that enjoy a sing that's loaded with books are missing out on the sings that are rip roaring but those book sessions are not being missed by the others, so who needs or wants who more? I guess it's a matter of what one considers a half filled or a half empty glass but it's worst when there's not a choice. I think in this day & age you can find a book session at your nearest library or local bookstore but you'll have a much harder time finding a sing where you can lift the roof off the house. Just try to look for the sing where there are no books, good luck.

PS, you realize I use the words "library" & "bookstore" as word play & for effect of course, not for reality

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 10:54 AM

I'm appreciating what Barry said about "dumbing down" with the overuse (is that a word?) of RUS. I hate to admitt it, but I am appreciating other's points of view. I HATE THAT ... because it threatens my knowing that I am ALWAYS RIGHT! That said, I still agree with Barry's point of view.

When I walk into a song session and I spot RUS copies scattered around, I don't even open my guitar case.

I taught beginning guitar for several years at our local community college. A large part of my thrust was the encouragment of singing. I loved it when whole families took the class, all the way from grandchildren through grandparents in the same class. We devoted some time, each class, to the newbie's first efforts at "singing to the class." It was great fun and you can't imagine a more supportive "audience".

But at my age of 171, I prefer to spend my time in sessions that challenge me as a musician. This I always find at Stew's monthly sessions. The best of the best attend. I like to think I've given as much as I have received.

Thinking back over the years, there's an obvious evolution here. I was 13 when I first picked up a guitar and started on this whole musical journey. I was lucky to be tutored by a very caring man who was also a brilliant performer. For the next ten years, I studied hard, learned from many singers, and profitted from the training.

A beginner is a beginner. One step in the learning process is the building of a repitoire. This is where books are necessary. But at some point, you leave the books behind and open your ears to what's really happenning out there. No two songers sing the same song ... they sing varients. And it's these subtle differences that make this world of folk music so viable and everchanging.

There is NO right or wrong here, you just choose to attend those gatherings that best satisfy. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:02 AM

Barry states/asks
I'm not hearing much about this from folks over in the Uk or Ireland and I'm wondering, not having been to any singing things there in almost 3 decades if in their clubs, bars & where ever they hold their sings if they have encountered this "from the book singing" thing?
Possible reason for lack of UK responses is that the thread is headed "Rise Up Singing", and this is not that common a book this side of the great pond.
We do get singing from books/papers. I am sometimes one of those. For various reasons:
1, I decide to sing at the last minute with nothing prepared, scrawl the first lines of the verses on paper to ensure I've remembered them all, and get them in order.
2, sing something I've written the words to which is topical so must be done while still topical, but which will become rapidly outdated so it is not worth fully commiting to memory
3, something already sung prompts a particular song which I know I have the words for with me.
4, at the last moment the circle organiser suggests a 'themed evening' and I manage to track down a suitable song

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM

Barry, from what I am seeing - the "neighborhood" IS in danger of dieing. Change for the better is needed, at least in this neck of the woods and other parts of the country from what I am gathering in these threads. I respect your opinion of the sessions that you enjoy, but I'm not convinced that "very few" are enjoying sessions where books are used.    Earlier you used an analogy about Chinese restaurants and where to find the best food - well, there is also a reason why the neighborhood restaurant is still in business and there are probably people who enjoy it.   Your tastes may differ, but there are people who find great comfort in the "book". More power to them.

As Nelson said, there is no "right" or "wrong" - whatever works for your area and community.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: astro
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:11 PM

As a newbie, I can see the use of any type of book that has the repertoire, but my goal is to know the music. It is much more enjoyable to know the music and to be able to just sing. It'll come, until then, I am going to sing! So, if a group demands that the book is used only then, that is a choir meeting.

I just hope that those who I sing with will be civil and understand that you have to start somewhere. Maybe for some groups where many have the books indicate a group that has reached out and have received a great response of newbies...what good news!

astro


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 02:05 PM

I heartily concur with everything Bob (Deckman) Nelson says just above. And I most enthusiastically endorse his second to last paragraph, which bears re-reading.
A beginner is a beginner. One step in the learning process is the building of a repertoire. This is where books are necessary. But at some point, you leave the books behind and open your ears to what's really happening out there. No two singers sing the same song ... they sing variants. And it's these subtle differences that make this world of folk music so viable and ever-changing.
At the hoots (short for "hootenanny*") that are still going on—and the Seattle Song Circle initially—it was never questioned that one learn a song before trying to sing it in front of the rest of the group. This means having the words memorized, knowing the tune, and having all the guitar, banjo, or autoharp chords memorized and practiced as well. If you blow it, fine! Nobody is going to stone you or laugh at you. Keep pluggin'. Everyone had (has) fun, and a fair number of pretty good folk music performers started out tremulously but gamely trying their first song at one of these events. Then maybe a year of so later, once they have developed a repertoire, they emerge as a strong singer, sometimes going on to perform for non-folk groups.

I got started this way. And my first big break as a singer was when I was asked to do a television series on KCTS (local educational channel, now a PBS affiliate), funded by the Seattle Public Library. Jim Gilkeson, who worked for SPL in public relations and who was liaison between SPL and KCTS, was also a jazz musician who liked folk music as well, and had sat in on hoots a lot just as a listener, and that's where he had heard me. Big break indeed! After having done a television series, other offers started coming in.

What Barry said about "dumbing down" is very much to the point. If someone would like to develop his or her skills as a singer and/or instrumentalist, and develop a sufficient repertoire to perform for non-folk oriented groups, possibly do concerts, recordings, and such, then the hoot format—everybody who wants to can sing, but learn the songs and leave the books at home—is a very good, friendly, "warm plunge" way to go about it.

If one wants to get together with of bunch of other people for group singing, then fine! There's nothing wrong with that. No pressure, and no preparation required, except, perhaps owning whatever books the group uses. But the group-sing format, with everyone singing the same songs out of the same book is very unlikely to produce strong individual performers. And it may very well stifle individuality itself.

So it depends on what you, as a singer or aspiring singer, wants.

If you don't like the group singing out of a book format, don't go. Let those who enjoy it do so.

But it's a bit of reverse snobbism for those who prefer the group-sing format to accuse those people who prefer the "hoot" format, where they can sing what they want, the version they want, and in their own arrangement, of being a "clique" or implying that they're a bunch of egotistical prima donnas.

Don Firth

*And by the way, the word "hootenanny" in association with a get-together of folk musicians originated in Seattle in the late 1930s or early 1940s, and were quite different from the later "hootenannies" (after the 1963 "ABC Hootenanny" on television and the egregious movie "Hootenanny Hoot") in which there is a distinct separation of performers and audience.

See Pete Seeger's The Incompleat Folksinger, page 327.)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 03:26 PM

One of the solutions to relying on songbooks is to encourage good song leaders who can
lead audiences in choruses to songs and encourage memorization. One of the vibrant aspects of a "folk community" which is rural, often, is that everyone knows the same songs and style and has a knowledge about them.

As to disdaining the use of RUS, this seems to me to be pedantic and short-sighted.
If it helps anyone get into singing and music, how bad can it be?

A lot has to do with the group dynamics of the environment. There are groups of people
who can make sweet music come alive together and whether they have songbooks or not bears little significance. It has to do with this sense of community which has to be nurtured. Many in America don't know how to sing with others. They are into spectator sports, watching their music on TV, lauding and promoting "pros" without a sense of participation. I have been in European musical circles where everyone grows up singing and feel no hesitation about this. (Holland, Denmark, Germany, etc.) Only in America have we been sold a bill of goods that unless you are "pro" or on TV or ? you are not qualified to participate in singing. Many music schools promote this elitist attitude.
The generic American doesn't sing.

RUS serves a function but is not the only way to bring people into a musical singing fold.
Strong choruses in songs, accessible background material on the songs to motivate interest, building an atmosphere of confidence rather than discouragement, a less "pedantic" and more open attitude regarding the nature of folk music (it is not meant to
be "precious") and keeping away the exclusivity of those "folkies" who want it for their own.

Pete's assessment of the origin of the word "Hootenanny" may not be conclusive, although
Pete, himself, did more to promote the concept which he saw as the ability of song leaders to encourage audiences to do choruses of songs, descant and harmony lines, and rhythm clapping using not just traditional folk tunes but jazz and pop songs as well. For this, the model of the African-American community with spirituals, gospels, and often intense participation is important to study.

I once sang for him a counter-melody for the jazz standard "How High The Moon" and he
thought that this was perfect for a "hootenanny" audience.

So, RUS notwithstanding, it takes all kinds.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe_F
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 05:48 PM

Joe Offer:

I merely said "your drink". Your assumption that it will be beer is correct in my case, but a table supports all kinds. Indeed, if it is water, one can contribute to the conviviality by raising one's glass high when the company sings "Water drinkers are dull asses".


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 06:42 PM

I'm wondering at so many people who seem to be independently wealthy, that all they have to do is sit about all day memorizing songs. If I only did the songs I'd memorized, I'd have damn few to perform. By using books, I can do hundreds. I think we've about exhausted this topic, now. Some people have set their views in concrete. Having been insulted by some twerps afraid to step away from the book, They conclude that the books, rather than the twerps, are the problem, thereby pulling the rug out from under the newbies and beginners. If you only want to sing the same songs with the same people for the rest of time, I suppose that suits.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 07:06 PM

"ref" ... you're quite correct. And, by the way, the second verse to your song and chorus are found on page 117! bob


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 07:53 PM

"I'm wondering at so many people who seem to be independently wealthy, that all they have to do is sit about all day memorizing songs."

One song at a time, Ref, one song at a time. And speaking of time, it takes time to build a repertoire. I started around 1952. In 1955, I sat down and made a list of the songs I had learned. About 50. That's not even two new songs a month. A verse a day? Piece of cake!

Now I wasn't (and am not) rich, and I didn't spend all day learning songs. Part of that time I was going to college and part of that time I was working. Well, that was 50+ years ago, and I just kept right on learning songs. I'm still learning songs, and I'm not sure how many songs I know now, but it's a few hundred at least. And that's from memory, complete with guitar chords--muscle memory helps there.

But although I don't worry about money as long as I'm frugal, I'm still not rich.

Maybe we need to spend a bit of time on how to go about memorizing songs. It ain't that hard if you know how to go about it.

Gotta go now, and we have company tomorrow, so I'll try to tackle that in a couple of days.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:46 PM

We had a Utah Phillips session at San Francisco's Camp New Harmony today, and most of the songs didn't work very well. The session was dominated by oldtimers who look down on the use of songbooks. There were a few songs led by the old folks, but in general the singing was weak. There are several Utah Phillips songs in Rise Up Singing, but those of us with Blue Books were afraid to use them. Too bad - we could have had some nice community singing on a few songs, mixed with the other, more obscure ones.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:54 PM

Hi Joe ... nice to hear that Bruce is being well remembered. I'm going to offer a thought. If it fits, fine. If not, fine. Sometimes singing "events" can be overlly planned ... make sense? Spontaneity is a necessary part of the process. That goes back to my critism of the use of the books. How can you be spontaneous when everyone is on page 117? Bob


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:43 PM

Hi Joe, forgot you guys would be wooding it this time of the year, I hope Camp Harmony is a blast. Maybe you relied to much on booking it & not enough memory. Anyway, plannig a topical sing is just plain a tough act to nail. I've seen just by changing where musicians normally play or sing will throw off a session completey. They're a very temperamental living organism, way worst than the humans that attend them.
Have a ball & pass on my hello's to Riggy, Richard & Peter
I wish I could be there, it's been 29 yrs I think & that was the only time, hopefully not the last.

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:52 PM

Quick note before I watch "Red Green Does New Years" on the telly, then prepare to hit the sack.

Bob the Deckman strikes again! Sponteneity is the key to a good song fest.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:56 PM

At leas one of the keys anyways

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:19 AM

As someone else said on this thread, the reason so few rightpondians have contributed is that the book is hardly known here (I just went to this thread because somebody on another thread pointed me to it).

But from what I remember of it, I can't see how it would be an effective tool for getting new people interested today, anywhere. Its repertoire is so circumscribed and filtered by local and period attitude that it looks a museum exhibit, or one of those retro photos of people in handknitted cardigans and Buddy Holly specs that gets recaptioned as a humorous postcard. You could imagine it being used for a theme night where the food was cubes of cheese and silver onions skewered on toothpicks.

People do bring song binders along to sessions/singarounds in the UK, but no one source predominates. Some people make it work, some don't. I liked this comment:

I will repeat once more my rule: IF you can sing out of a book or from a sheet in such a way that I can't tell with my eyes closed, I will tolerate it! If you almost know the song, but just need a little help to be sure....go ahead! But taking a book and picking a song that you have heard but seldom tried and reading it AT a group seldom works.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Patrick_Costello
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:33 AM

I can still remember the day somebody showed up at a Philadelphia Folk Song Society Spring Thing with advance copies of Rise Up Singing. Back then it was hard as hell to find lyrics or chord progressions to songs and the few folk song book that were out there were all lacking in some way or another.

I honestly think that the people saying bad stuff about the book are just being jerks.

I have taught tens of thousands of people around the world how to pay the banjo and guitar. I have led jam sessions all over America and across Europe. I can say from experience that Rise Up Singing is a useful little book.

-Patrick
http://tangiersound.wordpress.com


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 12:49 PM

Fine. You can use RUS to lead song sessions anywhere you want. It is not however reasonable to call people who don't like such sessions jerks. It tends to imply you should look in the mirror for that. We do not call RUS fans jerks. It's just not our cup of tea.

And the vehement defenders of RUS on Mudat, including, it seems, the originator of the this thread, have not bothered, evidently, to actually read the article on which the thread is based.

Nobody denies that RUS is a useful book or one that belongs in many homes. That's where it belongs, in the home.

The author of the article talks about it as a bonding experience in her family. An excellent use--and one which I suspect every one of us who oppose RUS as a hymnbook in folk society singarounds will support. It is a wonderful tool for introducing kids to "folk music" in a very broad sense---in the home.

Point is: the article does not in the least address the idea of RUS as a folk society hymnbook.   That misuse, not the book itself, is our objection.

Only solution as I said earlier is:   different strokes for different folks. You RUS fans tell us where and when your sessions will be; the rest of us will be elsewhere. And please do not bring RUS to our sessions, including the Getaway.

Reason for this is, as many others and I have already said:   it just makes it too easy to not expend effort whatsoever to learn a song--and still expect others to carry the song. Those of us who do learn songs do not want that kind of musical experience--it's not in the least satisfying--in fact it's a waste of time. People who actually learn songs have too much respect for music--and communication-- to want that.

When you don't have a book to read from, you may forget verses, even start over in the middle of a song. Those of us who learn songs realize this--and totally accept it, having nothing but respect for the singer--who's actually demonstrated that he or she tried to learn the song--by the very act of not reading it out of a book. It's far better than the RUS hymn sing approach.

And anybody who holds the fond delusion that RUS singarounds "build community" is welcome to that delusion.   Just please don't expect the rest of us to share it.

The article cited at the start of the thread has exactly nothing to do with folklore society singaround use of RUS.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM

I'd rather be with a group of people and hear someone say "Let's try Such-and-such on page 37" and get the whole group singing and trying harmonies, than sit silent while one pompous "performer" after another drones on with some partly remembered ballad.

Now, I warrant some of you'll be offended by that characterization. Try looking at it through someone else's eyes. These "NO BOOKS, EVER!" rants don't sound like the words of reasonable people. They sound like the words of "jerks."


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:21 PM

Again I say: different strokes for different folks.

If you can't accept that, then, in your search for "jerks", please start with the mirror.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM

There is no reason to use words like "jerks" or to consider people with a different opininon as being "delusional". Shameful. Perhaps the writers need to take a look at their own perspectives and how others are viewing them.

There is no single answer to this question about using or not using a book. There are problems when people judge others and expect that their protocol should reign supreme. There is enough evidence on this single thread to indicate that sessions can work with books and that INDIVIDUALS can experience a great satisfaction and sing on a different level when they no longer require a book. It does not mean that a book is giving that particular singer a false perception.

I think it is time to lighten up and not let our passions dictate our ability to reason and think about people other than ourselves.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM

Some have alleged that RUS hymn sings in folklore societies "build community". I believe this is a delusion. If it is not, let's have some evidence--which is, by the way, not the same as more oblique criticism.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 02:25 PM

Come off it Ron. Don't start this "let's have some evidence" crap. This isn't a high school debate team!!

We all know that we are dealing with OPINIONS - yours included. None of us have hard facts, but we have experience. Calling an opinon "delusional" is more than just criticism - it is a vain attempt to make your opinion hold more weight than the opinion of others. If you wish to discuss points of your opinion, go right ahead - but don't try these personal attacks at those who disagree with you.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM

I am from the UK and as two other UK posters have said, RUS is not widely known here - or at least it is just one of many song books available.

It is not common in the UK to see published books at singarounds (which seem to our equivalent of your song circles) but personal song folders are common. I have come across some very good singers who feel the need to have the words to hand and I would rather hear them sing than be rigid about whether or not the words should be learnt.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM

Experienced singers and performers can learn songs pretty quickly, and they can also read lyric sheets and even musical scores in a way that raises the roof, or whatever you want.
Some of the classic recordings of "our" kind of music were made by people who were looking at the lyrics.

So forget all that stuff about the qualitative differences between booked and unbooked singing. Time to be honest and admit that it isn't about that.

This is about people who aren't experienced singers and performers, who can't learn songs quickly, who don't know the songs that "we" know, and who want to participate. And beyond that, it is about whether and how they should be included. And it is an important issue.

You can say that singing groups have been "taken over" by the RUS, or you can be a little more honest and say that the new people that have come in to the groups are not experienced singers, have had different interests and tastes than the older members, and RUS was a way to include them.

More truth here: every organization, be it singing, stamp collecting, chess playing, or whatever, loses members over time due to attrition--people move away, have family obligations, develop new interests--don't blame it all on the blue books--

One of those notorious 80/20 rules has to do with a healthy group/organization/community needing to be 80 percent old and 20 percent new.

It's pretty much true--if there are too many new people, the group loses it's direction, if there are too few, it gradually disappears. And more disappear than the other.

Bottom line here is that folk groups of all kinds are walking a tightrope risking either losing direction or disappearing with every step. It's a worthy discussion, and I don't think it's accidental that the folks who are here engaged have all contributed a lot to what we little folk scene that we have today.



















Not so with some of the other stuff


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM

Incidentally, I was one of those Philly folks, like Patrick Costello, who was very excited when Winds of the People originally appeared--it was hard to find lyrics then--

Now, we can look anything up on the internet, and I will not be surprised to see younger folks singing from their PDAs very soon. Not me though--I can't read anything that small.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:23 PM

The only people I've seen singing from PDAs have been middle-aged. The first one was a few years ago.

Any sightings of one of those ebook-reader doodads at a singaround?


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:41 PM

Having 'The Words' IS OK for new songs , but kept as a reference - I dont lke to see ANYONE Singing at a book rather than to an audience !


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:41 PM

200


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