 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict?
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Dave Bryant Date: 19 Jun 02 - 12:10 PM My beer is more likely to make me pee in one ! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: the lemonade lady Date: 27 Jun 02 - 11:27 AM Me thinks that was a conversation stopper! Of course if you drink my lemonade you won't put on a pot. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 27 Jun 02 - 03:40 PM Well I like a bit of a jiggle... skinny blokes are all bones in the wrong places..... a good bit of padding is nicest, and it looks good too. Mind you, too much is just as bad..... don't want to be squashed to bits do we? There you go, female point of view, now all you skinny blokes can up and shout at me. LTS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Kim C Date: 27 Jun 02 - 04:23 PM Personally, I have always preferred tall skinny men. And I married one. Almost 47 years old and weighs the same as he did in high school. Don't let him fool you, though, he's pretty wiry and brawny in spite of himself. I dared him he couldn't carry me up the stairs, but he sure did. However, he is lax in the butt department. (I'm not saying anything I haven't said to him.) One of our friends calls this condition "leg tops" - as in, you don't have a butt, you have leg tops. :-D |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: EBarnacle1 Date: 28 Jun 02 - 11:58 AM I wish I came within a hundred pounds of what I weighed in High school. I was at the Mermaid Parade in Coney Island this past weekend. Attendance, both in the parade and in the audience, was equally divided between male and female. As I wandered around I heard many variations on the same comment--It's real nice to see people who are comfortable in their skins. This referred to people young and old, fat and thin. Happy people don't judge others on their appearance; they get to know them and them put out a slam. I didn't see an ugly person there [except maybe for a few of the polizei]. As I mentioned above, it would be unreasonable to judge others by a criterion I am not willing to make the effort to meet. I have found that a relaxed attitude toward others' appearance is much more rewarding toward my own involvements. Although I keep telling myself that I prefer small breasted women, others seem to come my way and it would be ungallant not to at least hug hello. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: EBarnacle1 Date: 28 Jun 02 - 12:05 PM By the bye, as Valentine Michael Smith put it "Snuggling is a goodness." Also, as far as clothing goes, why not alter the jeans with a needle and thread? If the hips fit properly, bring in the waist. The tailored look is better, anyway. The whole point is to appreciate what is there rather than lamenting what is not. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: GUEST,DW at work Date: 28 Jun 02 - 06:42 PM So I guess the verdict is we like 'em jiggly. Men and women. DW |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Gamine Date: 08 Aug 02 - 01:16 AM YEEEEEE-HAWWWWWWWW! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: wilco Date: 08 Aug 02 - 10:48 AM After thirty three years of marriage, I imagine that having a bed-mate who could juggle would be interesting. But, what could she juggle in bed? Maybe our bifocals and dentures. As it is, we get along like two old dogs. I sit-up in bed and beg, and she rolls over and plays dead. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: EBarnacle1 Date: 08 Aug 02 - 10:52 AM If she's playing dead, you are not providing enough stimulation. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Kim C Date: 08 Aug 02 - 10:52 AM Alterations are sometimes worth the trouble, sometimes not - jeans in particular are hard to work with unless you have an industrial-strength sewing machine. The beauty of it is, though, there are lots of jeans out there, so if you try on enough pairs, you're sure to find one that fits! I bought my first-ever pair of hip=huggers, that FIT, at Old Navy, whose jeans I have NEVER been able to wear. :-) I would say, never let a jiggle (or a lack thereof) impede what could be a wonderful relationship. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 08 Aug 02 - 11:37 AM I know a liittle about this stuff. One theory is that busts follow the market--in prosperous times small is fashionable and in depressed the big bust is favored. I don't know, fashion is different from any real collective preference, except that it influences some people. There are fairly talented people who work hard to make celebrities look good, then that look becomes a recognisible sort of style thing and people recognise it, respond to it. The general big bust preference is like that--not so many people really prefer it, I think, but it does have a way of bringing the subject up. Straight males generally have always liked jiggly women, as part of the the whole liking-women deal, and still do, and no amount of stylish fashion really changes that. But we have managed to create social diseases by attacking people's insecurities with diabolical ads. Same with ads about cars or whatever, how successful you are, or appear to be. I drew nude models a lot in college, and am really very easily attracted by people's looks, in all sorts of ways. I think it would be a good thing if drawing were still considered a basic part of education instead of a flaky gift. It's just a kind of literacy, just work like anything else. Then people might be better able to culture their eyes, instead of being so susceptible to influences. My own preference has always been mostly in the timeless range of mature-looking normality--by which I mean more or less average body types, with lots of room for variation. The only place to find average, mature- looking photos of nudes, when I was a kid, was books about witchcraft. Odd, now that I think of it. I've been with one woman about 22 years, since I was seventeen. One attractive woman I know is as weirdly voluptuous as a hindu stone carving, looks exotically sexy, very unusual, probably not a fashionable sort of look, is my point, but still as sexy as sexy gets. I don't think I judge people by their looks, much, but I enjoy the way people look, and like to flirt and have fun. One thing I find unattractive in women is when they get all high-minded, ethical, and principled, when it suits them, but forget that principle the rest of the time. It seems so masculine, like a woman having a big beard. Given that the look goes with other things, one thing I find especially sexy in general, is the ability to act. Bad acting is horribly unsexy, no matter what someone looks like. But in women in particular, the ability to do that look in the eye, that face--like Nala in the cartoon The Lion King. To do that, on cue, convincingly--that's amazing. I was watching with my kids, and Simba and Nala roll down a hill, then she looks at him with that face that women get at a certain point in the development of intimacy that says Fuck me. Yikes. Is that where women learn it? From Disney? How did they do that? It's kind of a mona lisa smile, and the eyes narrow just perceptibly. If a real actress did that in a movie it would be my pick for an oscar, but this was a cartoon of a damn lioness. People talked about the word Sex being drawn in the clouds, subliminally--what about that liminal thing where Nala does the Ok-fuck-me face? Another theory is that smell is a very good indicator of biological mate-compatibility. I heard that somewhere.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Blackcatter Date: 08 Aug 02 - 02:18 PM I don't particularly like a jiggle - wiggles, yes - like belly or hula dancers. Why to we at least like to look at slender women and men? Simple - slender & fit is natural - extra weight is not - until we humans were able to get to the point where work and food allowed us to add on those extra pounds, nearly everyone was slender and fit - at least until their 40s which was the beginning "old age" back then. pax yall |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: GUEST,Fred Date: 08 Aug 02 - 02:38 PM um, didn't mean to post that twice, or to drift. What I was trying to say is that part of the difference is not between looks and feel, but what is generally appreciated vs. what is generally considered, accepted, tolerated as fashionable. I don't think fashion is arrived at by a general consensus. Fashion leaders aren't mainly in the business of appreciating women. And the mystery of women's clothing, why nothing seems made to fit, is probably just because they aren't made to fit. They're made to sell. A study of the A.M.A. as a system of health services looks like chaos, but a study of it as a money-making system looks like a fine-tuned, well-oiled machine. I suspect there's something about prodding people's insecurities that taps the impulse to buy, to buy not only clothes and appearance-products, but all sorts of things. This is my theory about it, and I don't think it's a brilliant conspiracy, just what evolves when people are trying like crazy to sell stuff. In military training there's sometimes a mind-game trick of issuing recruits ill-fitting uniforms, then giving them better ones at the completion of training, as though they've arrived at a new self. So I think it's better for sales to present a difficult, almost impossible ideal, keep people feling uneasy, if you can. So people keep saying fuller-figures are coming back in style, and nothing happens. J. Garofalo keeps masquerading as an unattractive woman (and as a non-celebrity) and it's conventionally, but not actually, credible. I think the root is the difference between producing things for use, or for sale, and fashion unconsciously finds the expression of that aspect of the culture. Hope that was more to the point of the original question.
extra posting deleted by a |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: GUEST,fred Date: 08 Aug 02 - 06:02 PM Blackcatter, I think none of what you just said is true, why do you think it's so? I really think that's a very pop-culture conventional and not very well-informed take. Lots of people have had extra weight throughout history--or at least, to judge by depictions we make of ourselves. most people today have less leisure time than ever, historically speaking. History suggests that a range of physical types is and has always been the norm. Remember that mesomorph, endomorph, ectomorph, stuff? Where did this lost race of trim people come up with that crazy notion? I don't mean to be rude, but I think you might want to re-think your idea of today's conventions of attractiveness, because your health and history opinion is b.s. and I think there's more wrong with it than what you mean by it. The question really isn't simple, the flat-bellied slim look is only 'natural' for some people, and for most of those, usually when youngish. And I hate it when people keep throwing in 'fit' and 'healthy', as if not looking like a skinny supermodel was a frigging scabrous disease. The whole health imperative, the new old-testament morality of the Self, seems to me a very thoughtless and conventional platform for incredible rudeness and flat-out cruelty. The whole fitness and exercise business is puzzling to me, (not that I haven't indulged in it)--but isn't there anything left worth actually doing? If only we could harness the energy of our narcissism toward some useful purpose. Sorry again for my rambling opinions, but I'm a figurative artist, and I've thought about, and feel strongly about the way people look, and look at each other. I don't think it's so simple. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Blackcatter Date: 09 Aug 02 - 02:03 AM A few points 1) I didn't mean to imply "skinny" - just slender. - I agree most models today are too skinny - the fact that many of them do not menstruate is proof enough about their over-all health. 2) If you study anthropology you will find that people thousands of years ago rarely had a chance to eat to excess. They also had to work hard to get the food they needed, which meant they burned a lot of calories. 3) Looking at remote communities in Africa, South America and Asia, one sees people who are a great deal more physically fit that you average American or European. While these people are not exactly living the way our ancestors did 300 years ago, they are similar in many ways. They rarely have an abundance of food and usually have to work hard to get it. 4) look at the animals - especially the primates - with the exception of the gorilla few of them have a high body-fat to muscle ratio. 5) You are right - there are body types, but those body types have little to do with the extremes of today's weights. Pot bellies, huge rear-ends and rolls of fat everywhere on the body have little to do with body types. Show me examples of art over 1500 years old that depicts "fat" people with the exception of some royalty. 6) Today, we accept that the tradional roles of our ancestors - women as care givers and collectors and men as protectors and hunters still have very strong echos in 2002. What people are looking for in a partner is unwittingly, vey similar to what our ancestors looked for 2000, 5000, 10,000, 50,000 years ago. To ignore millions of years (including our pre-human ancestors) of behavior is foolish. We look for someone who can take care of themselves, potentially take care of us and children. We take into account intelligence, wits, adaptability, health, and strength. Health includes having a fit body. We are visual creatures and without knowing it, we judge everyone we meet of the opposite (or same) sex as a potential mate. Unless you are an expert on the subject, I think you should refrain from calling my ideas B.S. - disagree with me all you like, but do not insult me in that way. I have an M.A. in Folklore which is a dicipline of anthropology and have studied the field of early cultures for 15 years. pax yall |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: GUEST,maryrrf Date: 09 Aug 02 - 10:04 AM Well, I think moderation in all things is the key here - but the "ideal" that is usually held up for women by the media is not average or moderate but skinny. A couple of days ago I saw an advertisement for a weight loss product with a headline of "I went from a size 12 to a size 6!". My question - WHAT'S WRONG WITH A SIZE 12??? That's not huge, it's probably pretty near average. As an American I find it puzzling that from every side we are bombarded with the need to be thin and fit - just look at the magazine covers when you're standing in line at the supermarket - "10 days to flat abs" "Excercises to trim your butt" "Easy low fat recipes" "Drop two sizes in two weeks" - I'd venture that there isn't a woman's magazine on the shelf at any given point that doesn't contain advice on weight loss. The fact remains that even with all this hype and emphasis on thinness, there are a lot of overweight people in the US. Maybe we just need to stop obsessing, because it certainly isn't doing any good! I would classify myself as averagely jiggly and okay with it! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Catherine Jayne Date: 09 Aug 02 - 10:07 AM OK, what about manly jiggles???? I don't like my men to be too skinny. I like something to grab hold of when I want a hug!!! Cat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: GUEST,Fred Date: 09 Aug 02 - 11:24 AM Well, I think we're talking about different things. By calling your idea b.s I meant only to disagree with you as much as I like, not to insult you in any way. No offense intended--this is, after all, a b.s. thread. But are you saying that if I am an expert, I can therefore feel free to insult you? What would that mean? I was talking about skinny or a bit of jiggles, by contemporary standards, and trying to say that that I think there's shadings, stylistic intonations, complexity in our perceptions of fashionable idealization--what I disagree with most is that it's simple. I didn't exactly say today's models are too skinny, I don't know which of them are simply skinny, or trying too hard to be skinny--just that it doesn't represent a model of health for everyone. Skinny can be as attractive as anything else, I think, and some people are skinny. I don't know about their menstrual cycles and don't think it's any of my damn business--that's what gets me. This Health b.s., everyone is everyone else's damn Doctor. I think it's come to be a commonplace pretext for gross rudeness. You seem to be talking about obesity vs a generally healthy range, which may vary from person to person, and from time to time, so I'll defer to your expertise, despite the Venus of Willendorf, ca. 25,000 b.c., and those fertility goddesses scattered about 5 and 6,000 bc, etc. They may have been observed from royalty, as you say. But, really--you introduced this in a discussion of "jiggles" and then link it in some evolutionary way to health, which sounded like a pseudo-logical support for those models who you find too skinny, as instead, a healthy ideal. I see that's not what you meant, but people often say things like that, and it's silly, it's out of proportion to the question. Don't you think? I took the question to be aesthetic, and historically, ideals of women have mostly tended to be jiggly. There was a time in Russian literature when a beautiful heroine's eyes were always black. If you wrote something else you were apparently not a very good writer. I don't know if most Russians then much preferred black eyes, but some probably came around, on at least some superficial level, to sort of go along with it as a general preference. Maybe it was nice to be seen courting a black-eyed girl. That's the kind of thing I was talking about, and I suppose I misunderstood you as trying to ramify today's idealization as a simple and sensible preference. I'm not even sure it really is a general preference, except in that reified sense. I meant no offence, really. Fred |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: EBarnacle1 Date: 09 Aug 02 - 12:13 PM Rubens had it right. Happy and zaftig are good. Uncomfortable is bad. Take it from there. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Genie Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:06 AM A few responses to posts earlier in the thread: ¥ Stilly, are you sure Marilyn Monroe wore "what today is size 14?" I'm considerably plumper than she was and within a couple of inches of her height (I don't think she was over 5'6"), and I wear a 12 in most things ( a 10 in some). (Marilyn may have been more amply endowed in the bosom than I am, but she definitely was not in the waist and hips.) The clothing manufacturers have in effect "shrunk" the sizes, no doubt to make us women feel thinner. E.g., when I was a teenager, I never heard of a "size 2," and a size 6 was considered quite teensy. Also, I think they've increased the sizing on bras. I can remember when a B cup was a pretty substantial size; now it seems like "C" is kind of average. ¥ Carol C., you said it! Why is it that guys can look like Danny DeVito, Marlon Brando (the older version), or Jerry Richards ("Kramer" on "Seinfeld") and still "get the girl" (in the movie and in real life) yet women are continually berated as "too skinny" (e.g., Calista Flockhart) or "too fat" (e.g.,Oprah Winfrey)? [BTW, I can't believe you're 46! ¥ Jeri, I think one reason guys aren't bothered by cracks (no pun intented) about their physiques is that they are far less likely to be rejected by the opposite sex because of them than women are. ¥ Mousethief, ("Thank God for sexual reproduction!") How about "Thank God for sex without reproduction!"? *G* ¥ What Kim C,and MMario said, Spaw! ( I think ya got the makin's of a heart-rending country love song there.) (I mean the posts about yer missiz, not the posts about the NYCFTTS.) Back to the main point of the thread. OTBE, I'd rather cuddle with a guy who has a thin layer of subcutaneous fat than one with little or none. That kind of fat makes you cuddlier (but it doesn't necessarily make you jiggle). But when it comes to individual men, I've been "smitten" with skinny ones, beer-bellied ones, and various shapes in between. Blackcatter, I'd hardly call your points BS, but I do disagree on several of your conclusions. In non-technological societies, among people who do physical labor of some sort all their lives, there seems always to have been a range of body types, and women have tended to become more pear-shaped as they have borne and nursed children. The "healthiest" shape, in fact, in some respects is the pear shape for women (statistically speaking). (Not talking extremes here, just talking about women who have more padding around the hips and abdomen than a similarly healthy man would.) Our current western society seems to favor women whose bodies are not representative of a healthy, fertile female --except for the boobs. We glorify women with slender hips, very flat abdomens, and tiny butts, who are wider at the shoulder than the hips -- and who often have to resort to implants to have a large bosom in conjunction with those traits. Genie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: SINSULL Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:03 PM SINSULL lives to jiggle another day. After two weeks of being poked, prodded, squeezed into inch thick layers, and slimed with ultrasound jelly, I have been pronounced cancer-free. False alarms like this make me wonder about the wisdom of an annual mammogram. The stress has shortened my life by at least three months and turned a dozen more hairs gray...but I slept thorough the night last night. And made contact with a doctor who can cut these babies down to size, quite literally, if I decide to go that route voluntarily. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Amergin Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:32 PM sigh...why don't some of you girls just jiggle your way out to oregon? ;) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 10 Aug 02 - 08:06 PM Genie, I think you're right about the statistics of life-expectancy, but I do think also that younger people were considered mature in terms of responsibility, compared to today. Today behavior is still excused as "youthful" until quite into adulthood. Some think this was sometimes reflected in past depictions of children proportioned simply as miniature adults. The art that most resonated with people and is in the history books sometimes gives an impression that it was simply the way people painted back then, but often more naturalistic but less stylistically interesting work was being done at the same time, less notably. I've heard that Japanese has nine words for particular kinds of beauty. I don't know what they are, but I like the general implications of it. I have a theory that being very particular about what one likes and doesn't is a sign of desperation. Look at the spec lists in personals ads. It doesn't seem logical that desperation would make one more picky, but so it goes. In guys I've always liked the swimmer's build, good tone, but not too much of that puffy bodybuilder muscle. I'm not really attracted to guys but have a notion of which ones I think are attractive. I've always kind of liked the long hair. The most appealing thing in guys, jiggly or not, is that ease with themselves, of not having anything to prove. I think you can see that in a person's physicality, and you often find it in combat vets, and in public performers--'modern' dancers almost invariably seem to have it.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Genie Date: 10 Aug 02 - 08:29 PM Fred, I completely agree about historical concepts of childhood and adulthood. The concept of "adolescence," in fact, is considered by social scientists to be pretty much a modern phenomenon that wasn't recognized until after child labor laws and public education became widespread. As an aside, the in-some-ways distorted nature of our concept of "adolescence" is reflected in the misuse of the term "pedophile" to refer to adults who molest under(legal)age "children." While molesting anyone is and should be a crime, as is an adult taking advantage of the inexperience and lack of judgment of adolescents, it is not a "perversion" or a "psychosexual disorder" to be sexually attracted to pubescent teenagers (especially when they dress and move like Britney Spears). Such attraction is part of our biological programming. Back to the point of the thread: I agree about "art" and "nature," too. I'm not sure Rubens's ladies were any more typical of real women of their era than Twiggy was of the women of hers. But I don't think there have been many cultures/populations in the history of humankind where the average, healthy, properly nourished female, after bearing a child or two, was shaped much like today's top models are. Genie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: GUEST Date: 10 Aug 02 - 08:34 PM Amergin - is that a note of desperaration? Did LTS not make it across the pond to you? G |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Jeri Date: 10 Aug 02 - 09:24 PM Genie wrote "Jeri, I think one reason guys aren't bothered by cracks (no pun intented) about their physiques is that they are far less likely to be rejected by the opposite sex because of them than women are." I don't think we're anywhere near as likely to be rejected as we believe we are. Men can buy into the media image of "the ideal woman" but the real problem is we women buy into it and constantly compare ourselves to it. Most of my life I wanted to be pretty and skinny. It wasn't gonna happen (not without a whole lot of surgery) because it just wasn't ME. I don't believe anyone is very attractive, at least not for long, if they can't be happy in their own bodies. I agree with Fred Miller. The most attractive people are the ones who seem at home in their own skin. That grace borne of a quiet confidence is the biggest aphrodesiac. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Blackcatter Date: 11 Aug 02 - 12:11 AM Hi Fred - thanks for the apology, I appreciated it. We were talking at corss purposes - I didn't make myself clear in the initial post. All I was saying was that it took fairly modern history to make obesity really possible. I wasn't talking about skinny - but definately more like the average shape of men and women athletes today - not the extremes, of course, but healthy without a lot of fat. As for the Venus of Willendorf and other early goddess figures, there's plent with row after row or breasts, ones without any recognizable facial features, without realistic limbs, etc. The common opinion is that they weren't based on real women, but were exagerated to focus on the aspects of fertility. The same way many god figurines have phalluses as long as their arms (insert joke here). I am bothered by the thinness issue in the U.S. today. My girlfriend is 5'6" and weighs 110lbs. She occasionally talks about how she should try to loose a bit of weight. On the other hand, I'm 6'2" and weight 215 - and even with a bit of a belly, I'm totally comfortable with my size. pax yall |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Genie Date: 11 Aug 02 - 03:55 AM Jeri, I think you're right about the attractiveness of people who exude self-acceptance and self-confidence. Unfortunately, a major source of one's self-image is the reactions of others (especially during the "formative" years). If you grow up constantly bombarded with information that says that (a) appearance is very important, and (b) your appearance is not attractive, it is a lot harder to have that kind of self-confidence than if one or both of those messages were less pronounced. I have known people of both sexes who were, in an "objective" sense, not much to look at but who were extremely comfortable in their own skins and conveyed a great sense of confidence in their own sexual attractiveness. If I knew how you get that kind of confidence, I'd bottle it and make a fortune! Blackcatter, I don't think you and I disagree much on the issue of culturally accepted shapes. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 11 Aug 02 - 07:43 AM Fred wrote "There was a time in Russian literature when a beautiful heroine's eyes were always black. If you wrote something else you were apparently not a very good writer. I don't know if most Russians then much preferred black eyes, but some probably came around, on at least some superficial level, to sort of go along with it as a general preference. Maybe it was nice to be seen courting a black-eyed girl. " There is exactly the same cultural preference in Glasgow. Except normally the woman has only one black eye. Murray |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Maryrrf Date: 11 Aug 02 - 11:19 AM Genie, Yes, I think you have it right about confidence. But conversely, there are people who objectively speaking are very attractive by any standards, normal weight, etc. but who have a poor self image and THEY don't think they're attractive. It usually stems from being overweight or having some other appearance problem in childhood or adolescence. Those people tend to have the same problems as "unattractive" people when it comes to getting dates or finding a partner. I remember a letter once to Ann Landers (may she RIP) from a woman who freely admitted that she was very overweight. But, she said she dressed stylishly, making no effort to hide her figure, was outgoing and friendly, and had no problem getting boyfriends. As a matter of fact she said she'd just been on a European vacation with her (slim) boyfriend and was hit on by several other men, much to his chagrin. Her final comment "I feel attractive, act like I'm attractive, and I'm treated as such!" By the way if you find a way to bottle that confidence formula I'll be your first customer! (Actually, that's probably what drugs like speed or cocaine do - so maybe I'll pass, now that I think about it!). This has been an interesting thread! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 11 Aug 02 - 02:11 PM Blackcatter, I'm very glad you understood it was an apology--after I sent it I worried my goofiness about it might have muddled that. But I think the Venus of W., more so than many other figures, had to be observed from life. I don't think it much affects your point, and you make another good point that we have to take such representations not necesarily as observed norms--just as with the case today. But in that one piece I feel the knees, the ankles... it just has that quality of observation. The same way one feels a degree of random specificity in a movie intones something of a memoir source. But that's just my feeling. Apart from the historical reasons you outlined I think there's probably a lot to the implication--I think Genie suggested it--that the cultural obsession with thinness has a backlash effect on us. I once decided to try to get rid of a bit of belly, just to know I was able, and I exercised, paid attention to what I ate, for the 1rst time. And nothing happened. I got to be able to do many many exercise reps, but that wasn't something I much cared to do. Then, finally, what happened was, my belly began to develop like a bicep muscle bulge--again, not something I hoped for. So I quit all that, and months later, the bit of belly was gone. For a while. My conclusion is either (a.) chocolate doughnuts and french fries are the most effective way for me to slim down, or (b.) the exercise had strengthened my muscles so that I came to rely on them more, after I quit the exercise, just in the way I did things, the way I'd stand, etc., and that the effect is sort of indirect-- rather like Shaw's aesthetic idea that literary beauty is a by-product of other activity. I lost interest in the question beyond that. There are times when one has more mental energy to percieve different kinds of looks than whatever happens to be fashionable, which is only just the easiest, laziest thing to recognize and appreciate. A more open way of looking is kind of a restorative state of mind, like how a while in the woods puts petty concerns out of one's head, free-floating anxieties dissolve. I've always found nude life-drawing to be a de-tox process, like that, but you have to do it without caring much to make finished pieces, just for it's own sake. Genie, I think that notion of adolescence is maybe most damaging in education, where young men and women are considered as 'preparing for life' when they are very much alive, and their intense energies just can't be bottled in some existential formaldehyde. The sad thing about child-labor laws is that it's good if kids can have healthy little jobs. Enough time in schools is disengaged waste motion anyway, or was for me. I'm sure lots of people had better experiences, though. There's something about this topic that seems to bring up everything else.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Genie Date: 11 Aug 02 - 03:35 PM Maryrrf, ("...that's what drugs like speed or cocaine do...") -- Come to think of it, that's what alcohol does (not only makes the drinker feel more confident but makes everyone else look good, too!) Fred, yeah, we could do a whole nuther coupla three threads on the concepts of childhood & adolescence, child labor laws, etc. [a subset of my area of specialization in a former life], but Ye Olde Mudcat Café is supposed to be dedicated to folk music and blues, so out of respect for Max I'll forego doing that. Just to bring this thread back to the folk music/blues realm, here's an extra verse I made up to sing to "Skillet Good And Greasy": Well, I'm goin' down town, Genie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 13 Aug 02 - 10:01 AM Well, Genie, I was about to say that it seemed a little late in this particular thread to notice it was getting away from musical concerns, and then I was going to say that I think tossing around these odd topics serves a perfectly good purpose for songwriters--but you make the point better. The thing that I've found interesting about this is that it's harder to say something that isn't a current recieved idea--you can subscribe to it or counter it, but still the discussion is framed by a prevailing set of perceptions. (I mistook what Blackcatter had to say for something else that I've often heard--I heard what I think some people think.) It's probably a weakness in my original songs that I like too many specifics and details, want songs to be more like short-stories than they can be, and the main ideas can get lost in the mix. I have a recent song called My Fat Friend that I've been thinking about in regard to this thread. May post it soon to see what comes across. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: hesperis Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:28 AM I totally agree about adolescence... and that often that time is quite wasted in school. People need to start taking charge of their own lives at that age, and so often the school and their parents get in the way. It's really sad. However, even knowing that, and having the support of my parents, I'm only beginning to hit my stride now, at age 24. Maybe I'm a late bloomer? It's sad though that I still get judged as less experienced or less able to cope with life because of my youth... (I went to the bank to enquire about opening a business bank account, and they told me rather patronizingly that I had to have a business registration form first! I've been living on my own since age 18, and have been studying entrepreneurship and running my own businesses since before then! They probably thought I was 16-17 because I wasn't wearing makeup... but I hate wearing makeup because it makes my skin break out even worse. Then I look younger. Arrrgh.) Back to the subject of jiggles - I gained weight this year, it doesn't seem to be coming off finally, and I am really happy about it. Only about ten pounds, but I feel like a woman now, not a stick. I was a little too skinny in high school, so everyone thought I looked pretty good, but the skinniness wasn't healthy in my case, and I've always said I'd be that much better with 10-20 more pounds. I look REALLY good now! I'm pretty happy with my figure. Ok, even a little vain, but hey, it's all a part of sexy confidence, right? ;) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Sam L Date: 05 Mar 03 - 10:02 AM Good for you Hesperis--man I was on a thread-killing spree for a while there! I've always wondered whether pretty people got to enjoy it, or whether it was really more fun for everyone else, while the bearer still felt more or less like me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: beadie Date: 05 Mar 03 - 10:14 AM Show me a pretty little number, When she walks, she rolls like thunder, Eyes as dark as the deep blue sea. Round right here and round back there, Pretty red lips and her very own hair, Wrap her up, she's the natural girl for me. - Tom Paxton - [It's in the Digitrad] |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Kim C Date: 05 Mar 03 - 11:38 AM Late bloomer at 24? I don't think so. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: CarolC Date: 05 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM Hey hesperis! Good for you! I stand by what I said about Canadian men. I married one in October, and I feel much more comfortable with my body now than I did with any of the other men I've been with (all from the US). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: gnu Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:37 PM Maybe because us Canucks appreciate women that are built for the cold. Or just built the way god intended. Not the way the magazines intended... for selling clothes.... that don't fit real women anyway. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: Genie Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:15 PM Congratulations, Hesperis! It's refreshing to know that some young women recognize that you don't have to look like a twig to be beautiful. (Mind you, I think your pic in the 2001 calendar looks great, as you do in your other Mudcat photos, but I can easily imagine another few pounds making you even sexier -- especially if those pounds make you healthier.) And I second the comment: "Over the hill at 24? No way!" Genie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: beadie Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:24 PM - - - - - 24 ???? If that's the hill, I've been over it twice and I'm getting ready to start up the third time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Womanly Jiggles. What's the verdict? From: KateG Date: 06 Mar 03 - 07:02 PM Womanly jiggles....go for it (within reason, of course). After all, fashion designers design clothes for very lean women for two reasons: 1) it's easier, and 2) they prefer women who look like the true objects of their desire...adolescent boys. Let's face it, most of the clothes designed today would look TERRIBLE on the pin up girls of the WW2 era! And those women were WOMEN!!! And from the other perspective, I like a man with a bit of padding to snuggle against. |