homage to Rise Up Singing

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM

happy?? :)

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

I think we'll see them soon. Perhaps someone already has one set up to read the words aloud, perhaps with a vocoder or some such thing, so that the boxes themselves could sing the songs--that would be something to be upset about!

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM

So sorry, Ron O, that you can't come up with any evidence that RUS hymn sings in folk societies build community.

Not that surprising, however: the evidence is all on the other side.

Far from "building community", RUS hymn sings in folk societies tend, it seems, rather towards civil war in those societies.    It tends to aggravate the split between people--all in the "folk community" -- actually willing to learn songs and those who are not.   It does take effort to learn songs; it does take willingness to make it a priority. For whatever reason, it may not be a high priority for some. Totally understandable.   But please don't expect those of us for whom it is a priority to be content with the travesty of a singaround which an RUS session presents.

And if you want evidence of RUS use at folk society gatherings being a serious cause of friction, rather than "building community" in folk societies, take, for instance, the response in this thread--or any other on RUS.

RUS "building community" in folk societies, is, as I said, a delusion fondly held by some--with no evidence to back it up.

Unless you actually have some.

Still waiting.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: astro
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM

As a newbie, I need to find a method that works for me to learn songs. I can't hear the words well enough from singers to get the songs. A book is useful for doing that, but with the idea that I want to learn and just sing without the book.

It seems that we need to be reasonable. For newbies (or not well learned), it is proper to be sensitive and pass the lead to a more experienced singer. It is not too disruptive for a few to have a book to refer to as we learn with the idea that as a song is learned we leave behind the use of a book (until the next new one). It would not be reasonable to expect that all songs would be sung from the book at any session. Too prohibitive for the session and to experienced singers. In that case, the newbie (people like me) needs to listen and take as big a part as possible to the singing and just enjoy.

If places like the Getaway prohibits newbies and their crutches then it is destined to die. I would like to go sometime, I would hate to think that people who attend would not like my presence.

I say let's keep a sense of humor and pure enjoyment of this life we share. No more "jerk" calling, but rather enjoy the presence of experienced singers and be excited for new singers coming along. Patience and understanding, if anything, should be shown during these times we are sharing.

Astro (a newbie)

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: mg
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:05 PM

Hi..I am here at least for this thread and then will probably depart again, still disgusted over what I saw here a couple of months ago. Anyway, yes, it ruins ongoing song circles...add to that music camps. And I think the blame should mostly go to people who did not speak up right away, or put something in writing in newsletters, web sites etc, telling people that this ongoing group wants to do it this way, and setting up perhaps another parallel group on the same night that prefers to do it differently.

I think that group 1, which does not like the books, and I am a charter member, likes what good music sounds like. It is an auditory thing. Group two, which likes the books, either can not hear exactly, or has no history of hearing good music so they do not know, or other factors are more important, such as the sense of community they feel, the chance to get a turn (which really seems to drive a lot of people), the emotional high or low the get from the song, the historical aspects of it etc. But I truly think sound is not a high priority. The two groups are incompatible period, so quit beating around the bush and spending too much time being polite as you see the music being ruined, even as the other factors might very well be increasing. Help them set up their own group, do it however they like it, advertise it that way, tell them not to change just because some tells them soemthing else sounds better but refer them to the other group.

Same in camps. Oh the endless, monotonous song circles you can get these days. 80 people..one by one by one...singing essentially a solo. I counted how many songs I didn't want to hear before I got to a good one recently at a camp..it was in the dozens. I do not have the time, the energy, the money, the transportation, to participate in something like that. If it was next door...would I go to a RUS sing? Probably not. Definitely not more than 2 blocks away. Definitely not take a bus to one. Definitely not take a plane to one as a recetnly did, although it was not dominated by them, but they were there.

I do guirella??? tactics. I peak in the door. If they are there I am not. I would rather find two people who feel the same way and sing in a closet or a bathroom or wherever. I also hate the flourescent lights at some of these places, especially camps, and I find a direct correlation between blue books and inability to turn off a flourescent light. Also, direct correlation between liking to rigidly, endlessly into the night, take turns. So I just try for an alternative song circle with no turns, free for all, devil take the hindmost. Generally, you get the best music. it is not fair or democratic, but it sounds prettier. Lots of people do not seem to care if it sounds pretty or not and they seem happy, and I am glad to oblige them, doing the endless circle.

If I had opportunities every night of the week like people in Seattle or Portland do, and transportation that would allow me to get there (and leave) easily, it would be less of a cost/benefit analaysis and I would take more chances. But I can't and won't. Iw ould rather go to Safeway and read the movie magazines, which I do when I am in town.

I think if people are new to this, and have not heard the good singing that we are talking about, they won't understand and they are quite happy with what they have. That is great. Keep it, grow it, but don't bring down a good, long-standing group that knows what it is doing. That is what is not fair..when music is killed..not allowed to die a natural death, but killed for politeness sake.

And I personally do not understand why people have to sing all the words..they can hum, sing the choruses, etc. in the long-standing groups that prefer no group books (I always say individual papers or books OK, but no turn to page 37 and for God's sake, don't pass out extras..)In groups they ahve started or found that are compatible with their preferences, do it however you want. No one is going to come to your group (hopefully) and try to make you change it. But neither should you try to change ongoing ones, or ones that are set up in a special way. Like someone said, people who could sing in a great group way, quit coming. In camps they will sneak out to secret places and you won't know what you are missing. But I know what I am missing and I miss it and I think people should just be much more honest and direct about their preferences and set up basically separate groups...mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM

"So sorry, Ron O, that you can't come up with any evidence that RUS hymn sings in folk societies build community."

Oh Ron, you are such as sorry case.   Just read some of the comments from people like Janie and you will find your precious "evidence."

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:16 PM

C'mon, folks, let's not descend to the level of calling each other "pompous performers" and "jerks" and generally spitting at each other like pre-schoolers having a snit-fit.

Although slightly convoluted, Mary (mg) says a lot of good things just above. I first met Mary in the very early Seattle Song Circle meetings. And I like to hear Mary sing. Solo. She knows a lot of good songs and she sings them well.

####

An alternative fable:

Richard I, on his way back to England from the Third Crusade, is captured and held for ransom. He sits in a dungeon cell in despair. Suddenly, he hears a familiar voice outside the barred window. It is the voice of Blondel, the minstrel, singing a familiar song. Richard's heart beats faster. His friends are looking for him, so they can ransom him and he can return home to England! Hope bursts forth!

Blondel sings the first verse of a song that he and Richard often sang together, then he stops and waits. He waits for Richard to sing the second verse, the way they always do with this song. This is a message! If he hears a response, he will know for certain where Richard is being held and can carry the news to England.

But Richard doesn't have his copy of RUS with him! It was taken from him, along with his sword. He doesn't know the next verse without looking in the book!

Hearing nothing but the wind soughing through the trees, Blondel sighs and passes on, to continue his quest.

Richard's heart sinks into despair. And history is changed forever.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:43 AM

Nice ballad Don ... what key was it in? Bob

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:37 AM

I'll say it again, in even simpler language: folk music isn't attracting large numbers of talented, motivated people these days.

Times and tastes are different, and folk music is the road less travelled(which kind of makes one wonder if it really is "the people's music" after all), and it is pretty easy to feel like the last straggler on the road.

The folks who do show up, books in hand, equipped with nothing more than a desire to sing are all you're going to get. Sorry if you're better and more experienced than they are, sorry if you prefer to sing with better singers--sorry if they want to use a book, and you don't want them to.

Bottom line is, it isn't the books, it's just the way things work.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: mg
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM

It is all that people who prefer that style are going to get because others are not going to be there. And hopefully the ones that are there will enjoy themselves and prosper. But there will be a few dairymaids here and a few rugby stars there and there will be little enclaves of people who remember and one day it will come back...mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:34 PM

Mary's right again.

I believe it was Mark Twain who said, "The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM

Mark Twain is still alive??????

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM

I've always thought that "it" would come back, but I've come to realize that my "it" was a very personal piece of a fleeting moment in time.

A lot of the things I was interested in have come and gone again, in different forms, and at different times.

I was thinking that they'd all show up at once again, in the same forms, not realizing that, even if they did, I wouldn't be twenty years old anymore, so I wouldn't experience them the same way.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stewart
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

Hi Mary, I hope to see you at Rainy Camp. Maybe we can get together with a few others and sing some songs without books or fluorescent lights.

We just had our annual New Year's Day music open house yesterday. About two dozen people, some musicians, some not. We had a great music circle with singers, listeners, and instruments including guitars, fiddles and a hammered dulcimer. We first went around the circle with whoever wanted to sing or play, some did, some didn't. Then it sort of opened up to whoever wanted to sing or play next because they had something to add to the mix. And it was a mix of songs, some solo, some with the whole group singing and instruments playing, and some just instrumental tunes. And not a book in sight.

Then at one point Bob (Deckman) got up and started to rehearse everyone in a simple, but yet complex song. First he got the bass line going with a repetitive verse. Then the others going with a complementary repeating verse and melody. Then everyone together. And it was fantastic - everyone was singing, musicians and non-musicians, singers and non-singers all together, and the whole room resounded in melody, harmony, and verse. Afterwords I turned to Bob and said "wow, and we did that without any blue books!" Now that's what a music circle should be.

It was a great way to begin a new year.

Happy New Year everyone!

Cheers, S. in Seattle
make that Singing in Seattle

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

OY!

I sure wish I could have been there, Stew!

We had our Christmas party on New Years Day, postponed because most of our guests couldn't make it on Christmas because they were snowed in. We ate like little piggies and had much good conversation (seven women and me!)

But it looks like I missed a great song fest!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 01:43 PM

I think it's a good idea to have existing singing communities print up their own song lyrics in a book form. It doesn't have to be "pro".

Each singing group likes its own songs. RUS serves as a model.

I also think it would be useful to have songs categorized. Not all folks like to sing just
folk songs. (Whatever they are).

Where Mary and I sing every Thursday, they like a variety of songs. Many remember songs from the past that they used to hear on the radio.

Sometimes a conversation will trigger a song. We go into it. Other times, we look at
lyrics for reference on some songs.

When people know how to contribute to a singing session, it doesn't matter whether
there are song books or not.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

I like your approach, Frank-- those half-forgotten songs from the radio are often the best--

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:38 PM

Just for the edification of any leftpondians who might be curious:

We don't have RUS in the UK, but we do have some widely used songbooks. In Scotland the ones you see most often are:

- The Scots Folksinger (ed. Norman Buchan and somebody else)
- Soodlum's Irish Ballads (4 booklets)
- Songs and Ballads Popular in Ireland (3 or 4 booklets)

The first two are fine and I've used them myself. I've once seen Cathal McConnell singing out of the last one. Personally I don't have any use for it.

Maybe the Penguin Book of English Folksongs is about as popular south of the border.

But NOBODY sings in chorus to any of these, nor would you ever expect to see more than one copy open at a time. If people have books with them, nearly always they'll be folders of personal selections.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:19 PM

DON ... Seven wimmen and YOU!!!! I'll bet you didn't any any book either! Bob

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

In a post on December 31st, I said I would do a little blurb on how to memorize songs for those who don't know how to go about it. At least this is the way I do it.

Learning—memorizing—songs:

Usually, what attracts me to a song in the first place is hearing it. I have learned a few songs straight from song books (I can read dots), but very few indeed. Usually this happens when I read the words in, say, Lomax's Folk Songs of North America, they appeal to me for some reason, then I dope out the melody and proceed to learn the song.

But my usual method is to learn them from records. I play the record repeatedly while I scribble down the words. This takes several playings. I try to write down the first line of each verse the first time through, the second line the second time through, and so on. By the time I have the words written down, the tune is pretty well lodged in my ear.

Or if I learn a song from someone in person, I get the words from them (they write me out a copy or dictate them to me) and then they sing me through the tune until I have it securely in my ear. I learned a lot of songs from Walt Robertson and others this way. Or they have learned songs from me this way.

This is an important part of the "folk process." Learning songs from records is the folk process one step removed.

What I do then (and not necessarily in the same sequence each time) is "vocalize" the tune:   sing it through on one vowel ("ah" or "oh"), or just hum it, until I'm sure I have it. At the same time, I set the key for my voice. I carry one of those round "Master Key Chromatic Pitch Instruments" made by the Wm. Kratt Co. around with me (chromatic pitch pipe) – CLICKY #1 – and as I experiment with the tune and find my comfortable range, I check with the pitch pipe to see where I am, then figure out what key is most comfortable for my voice.

Way back, I would carry the words I had copied down around with me, folded up in a shirt pocket. I'd try to sing the song in my head (sometimes aloud, if I was alone), going as far as I could, then when I got stuck, pull out the sheet and look at it, then continue until I got stuck again. About the fourteenth or fifteenth song I learned that way was twenty-seven verses of adultery, blood, and gore:   "Little Mattie Groves."

I found that one thing that tended to work reasonably well was putting the subconscious on the job. While lying in bed, just before going to sleep, I would sing the song in my head, again going as far as I could. If I got stuck, I would skip to the next verse I remembered. I'd do this maybe a couple two or three times before I drifted off to sleep. Sometimes in the morning, it was all there. Or I knew what lines I needed to work on.

I can learn a new song in two or three days by following this procedure. Then, what I need to do is sing it over and over until it is thoroughly filed in my memory.

Some of the first songs I learned ("Greensleeves," "Blue Mountain Lake," "Drill, Ye Tarriers," "High Barbaree," "The Golden Vanity") I will never forget, even if I haven't sung some of them for years.

While all this is going on, I pull out the guitar and work out the accompaniment. Chords first. The basic, necessary chords. I sing the song (or at least vocalize the tune), strumming the chords of key I now know fits my voice. When I have the essential chord changes worked out, if the song seems to call for it, I start playing with alternate chord possibilities ("Okay, I'm three measures on a C major there. How would it sound to stick an A minor in there before going to the F?"). Experiment. At first I just strum chords. Once I have them set, I tinker with right hand patterns, beginning with a simple "Burl Ives basic," then try various picking patterns. Arpeggio? What kind? Mix it up? "Lullaby lick?" Alternate bass finger-picking? Or would it be better just to stick with "Burl Ives basic?" Then maybe work out bass runs, a little between-verse bit of the tune, and so on, depending on what seems appropriate to song itself.

Remembering that an accompaniment that's too flashy can distract and detract from the song itself. Not good!

By the way, I know all the chord families and such (a couple years of music theory classes), but for anyone who might need some help, this gadget would probably prove quite useful:    CLICKY #2.

Then—the original word sheet that I copied from the record goes into a file. These days, I type in into the computer. First verse and chorus double-spaced with chord symbols above the appropriate words, the rest single-spaced (usually 12 point Georgia, which I find easy to read), with notes about the song (Child ballad? Where did it come from and what is it about, when and where I first heard it and learned it, what song books or records I have that it's on, etc.) in Georgia 11 point type, at the bottom if there's room or on the back if not. If the song is long, a second page of course—or if the lines are short, I might do two columns.

I keep the file on the computer (backed up, of course), print out a copy, three-hole punch it, and put it into a three-ring binder.

Which I use for reference or to refresh my memory when needed—and which I leave at home.

By the way, once I have a song learned, I record it a few times (cassettes awhile back, but now onto a ZOOM H2 digital recorder, which I then download into the computer) and play it back for and self-criticism and analysis.

Learning songs involves exerting enough effort to engage a few brain cells. It doesn't take that much time, and it ain't that hard. And you don't have to be a member of the idle rich. And once you've got it, you may need to refresh your occasionally (that's what the three-ring binder sitting on your desk or in your bookcase is for), but you've got it.

Bon appetite.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:38 PM

Yup! Seven lovely, charming ladies. No books necessary. All from memory!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:34 PM

"Or if I learn a song from someone in person, I get the words from them (they write me out a copy or dictate them to me) and then they sing me through the tune until I have it securely in my ear. I learned a lot of songs from Walt Robertson and others this way. Or they have learned songs from me this way.

This is an important part of the "folk process." Learning songs from records is the folk process one step removed."

Your mention of the "folk process" prompted me to read a passage from Pete Seeger's book "The Incompleat Folksinger". In a section describing "the folk process" he referred to it as a stream in motion- you cannot truly examine a brook by "freezing" it or taking a pail of water - you have to watch the entire stream to see where and how it flows if you wish to build a bridge across it.

Pete also talked about how a play was different in Shakespeare's time from what we consider a play today. He talked about television and radio and how they influence our views - "if a sophisticated urbanite tries to consciously reject these influences, he usually ends up looking and sounding more precious and effected than if he'd gone ahead and been normally jazzy".

I've always felt that the "oral transmission" part of the definitition is misleading and not fully recognizing the "stream". We've had a huge communications revolution in the last 100 years that has become part of our lifestyle and it effects our traditions.

Memory is a great thing, but memory is a reflection of our environment.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:51 PM

I certainly agree that we've had a revolution in communication. At the same time, I'm often amused at how frequantly I find myself hunkered down in some public hall, using a folding theatre chair as a table, and either scribbling out song words for someone, or receiving song words from someone.

The tradition keeps moving on ... ever changing, yet moving on just the same. bob

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

True - but 100 years ago people were not even writing down songs! That was the realm of collectors!

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:14 PM

Hey ... I WAS THERE A HUNDRED YEARS ... i think? bob

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM

People learn and remember in different ways, and some people have difficulty with memorization. So your response is that anyone who can't memorize the same way you do is just not welcome in your singing group? You have no space for someone who loves to sing but lacks the capacity or, in this busy world, the time to memorize songs? How does this compare to the aforementioned "twerp" who refuses to countenance a song or verse that "isn't in the book?"

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:49 PM

Ron, people have been writing down songs for a helluva lot longer than 100 years.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a songbook. There is something wrong with limiting what a group does to what's "in the book". At singarounds I've attended (only once each, though) each song was prefaced by a page number announcement; alternate or addition verses were the objects of attack, and even questions like "what key are we doing this in?" were answered by what it said in the Blue Bible.

There's really more to music than having a group sing in (hopefully) unison with their eyes glued to a page.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:04 PM

"Ron, people have been writing down songs for a helluva lot longer than 100 years. "

Of course. I did not write that correctly - what I was trying to say was that people were not transmitting songs in a written fashion as a rule. Certainly collectors and others were writing down songs, but the "oral tradition" that everyone discusses signifies that songs were learned by word of mouth - in community life, work, etc. Those events were far different than what we are discussing as "sings".

So if we all agree that there is "more" to music than singing in a book - what about events like Sacred Harp? It is not the same as a sing, BUT there is a purpose that is very similar.

While I agree with everyone who says that a "book" should not be a bible, we are still only hearing opinions about the so-called "problems" with using books.   On the other hand, we have also heard a number of statments from people who do use books and find it helpful to overcome lack of knowledge about the songs, shyness, forgetfullness, etc.   It still boils down to everyone having the option to do their own thing.

Dick, I do agree with you and others who have attended sessions where the book is the only item used and the rules are set. Those events serve a different purpose and you and the rest do not belong there.

By the way - some people have been referring to the blue book as "the bible". When you think about it, even the New and Old Testament Bible is argued about and interpreted in different ways by different groups. Hopefully there is room for everyone to do as they please and not worry so much about what the other group is doing.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: mg
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:04 PM

it isn't one person who is the problem. It is a critical mass of people or the tipping point or whatever. I think we all have the desire to be polite to that one individual who sings off key or songs we don't like or whatever. But then are 4 and then 7 and then 10 and in inverse proportion people leave. The tipping point was long ago reached in many groups. It is not their fault..they don't know...and people will leave the group rather than bring up the subject of the elephant with the blue book in the living room. No one begrudges them their own song circles or groups where they set it up exactly like they like it and others are free to join them or set up something else entirely again.    mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:19 PM

First post after thread began:

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Animaterra - PM
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 08:19 AM

Whatever its flaws, it serves a vital purpose and has been a marvelous tool to get people singing! Thanks for the link, Peter!

Allison


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Second post:

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 10:02 AM

The problem with RUS is not the book but more in the way it came to be used. The bible has the same problem. Its used by Episcopalians and Fundamentalists alike but in one case it is THE ONE AND ONLY LAW and the other more of a suggestion.{:<)))

Getting folks singing is good.......No room for interpretation is bad.

Spaw

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:19 PM

Ron-
Actually, the folk have been writing down songs for a long long time--for personal use, rather than for publication. Sarah Cleveland had an extensive collection; words were written down in sailor's logbooks and the Appalachian collectors frequently noted that their sources used written-down words (As I recall, Jean Thomas called them "Song Ballets"

Sacred Harp singing --a rigidly arranged choral style-- and hymn singing are, really, qualitatively different from folk song gatherings. Or at least they used to be.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:20 PM

"I think we all have the desire to be polite to that one individual who sings off key or songs we don't like or whatever. But then are 4 and then 7 and then 10 and in inverse proportion people leave."

You are describing ANY social group, it doesn't matter about the song. Insert "off key", "songs we don't like", or "the blue book" and you can find a reason to not wish to participate. Sure, these reasons may have some validity to a group - but again it comes back to the purpose of the group.   You say that they can set up "their own song circles or groups where they set it up exactly like they like it and others are free to join them or set up something else entirely again" - well, that is what happened to your group because no one wished to discuss it. The group was set up exactly the way they like it, and no one else raised their voice.

The "critical mass" IS the group.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:26 PM

Very good point Dick, you are correct and I was wrong in my earlier statement. Your mention of Sarah Cleveland got me to thinking about other families such as the Coppers who wrote down books and I am also recalling other families whose family notebooks were sought after by collectors.

I do agree that Sacred Harp is a very rigid style, but the emotions generated and purpose of the gatherings are very similar to folk sings in a social sense.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: astro
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:32 PM

Don,

Thanks for your recipe for learning songs. As a newbie, any advice is helpful, especially helpful advice! Thanks for your post. I'll use it not only with singing but with my beginning mandolin.

Thanks again, Don

Astro

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:10 AM

I guess that the conclusion is that some people like it, some people hate it and some people think it is an acceptable, if maybe less than desirable, alternative. However, many of you are speaking from places where there are alternatives - as in, "the 2nd Friday group uses the Blue Book, so I'll skip that and go to the 3rd Saturday group". Consider yourselves part of the lucky minority. Here in Albuquerque, there is one...count 'em, one...song circle. RUS is heavily, but not exclusively, used. I doubt that 25% of the people there know everything they sing/lead well enough to do so without a cheat sheet of some kind. BUT, they are having fun singing together. It beats singing in the shower by a good deal. If I were the sort of person who casts aspersions at others, I might be tempted to say something like "elitist snobs", but I'm not so I won't.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:30 AM

"...a sorry case".    Right.   There seem to be some people here who have a vehement dislike to being asked for evidence--for anything. They are also the people who defend the use of RUS in folklore society singarounds, on the basis that it "builds community"--despite the copious evidence on this thread and others was that the main result of such use is to drive the better singers away from folklore society singarounds.

I went to a fabulous music party on New Years eve. We sang and played virtually nonstop from about 9 to 2--while also eating and drinking. "Pompous performers"?---not likely. The general theme was C & W--but we sang anything we felt like--starting with "White Christmas" and "Blue Christmas" and including "Let's Talk Dirty in Hawaiian". "Pretty Boy Floyd", "Palms of Victory", "Bottle of Wine", as well as a boatload of C & W including "Crystal Chandeliers", "Before the Ring on Your Finger Turns Green", "Yard Sale", and a big bunch more. We had an autoharp, a ukulele, basses, a viola, and some excellent guitarists.

One of the many reasons the party was a smash was that RUS was nowhere in evidence.

We actually knew what we were doing--and if somebody forgot a verse, nobody cared. We helped each other out with words from time to time. We laughed, talked, teased each other--in general a fantastic time.


Similarly, one of the reasons the Getaway is a rousing success is that it is not an RUS singaround. If it were, that would kill it faster than anything.

The use of that book at a singaround is far more pernicious than a personal little book of lyrics or a sheet with a few cue words---and for the reason I cited---that it makes it far too easy for the singer to make no effort to actually learn a song--and still expect the group to sing it.

And, as has been indicated, we who oppose RUS in singarounds do not call the other side "jerks", just deluded.   Chamberlain was not a jerk when he came back from Munich with "Peace In Our Time"---but he was deluded.



I suspect that even in Albuquerque good music is being made.   But it is being made outside of RUS singarounds.

It depends on what you are content with. If you are content with what comes out of an RUS singaround, that's fine. More power to you.

But those of us who like music--and are serious enough about it to want to make our own music--do not want RUS brought to our groups.

There is ample evidence that RUS use in singarounds does nothing but dumb down the experience--by driving the better musicians away.

Even when the RUS singaround is "successful", it may not be due to the book.   At one gathering I go to in PA which is a "successful" RUS singaround, the success is due to one person who is not only an excellent guitarist, but willing to lead every song if need be. Without him, the singaround would immediately collapse. And you can bet he does not need the book.

In fact I taught that group a song they still love--long before RUS even appeared on the scene.   The song is now in the book--but nobody needs the book to sing it, obviously.

It seems fairly obvious that people who actually sing and play --and have experienced both RUS-dominated sings and those without RUS-- may possibly know more about
this topic than somebody, who, for instance, just runs his own radio program.

And again, as I've said before, nobody on this thread thinks RUS is a bad book.   It is fine for the use described in the opening article--to introduce kids to "folk music" in a very broad sense--at home.

Or for adults to use as one of many sources---at home.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:45 AM

Well these people that don't like people like me that uses songbooks and songsheets, well why don't you start up a session and make it quite clear that you can only join if you don't use any form of musicbooks/songsheets and let the rest of us enjoy ourselves because in time you will be lonely.

because hardly anyone will come to your 'sessions'

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:56 AM

Ron Davies - you are putting up a smokescreen and trying to turn this personal. I have given as much "evidence" as you have to support your opinion. To everyone reading this thread it looks like you are ignoring "evidence" that doesn't support your opinion and trying to insult those who do not agree with you. There is no need to call us "delusional".

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:07 AM

Fine. So let's have that "evidence"--that RUS use at folklore society singarounds "builds community".   That is the question.

Direct quotes please---not links.

And this is not "personal"--any defender of RUS use at singarounds is welcome to answer.


I can tell you that such use in the FSGW singaround has resulted in a huge dropoff in quality. And even people who still go to such meetings--like Bill D--confirm this.

But again, I am certainly not trying to suppress such use of RUS--by anybody who is content with that experience. I am just pointing out it does not "build community" in folklore societies.   And people who think it does are deluding themselves. Sorry if RUS advocates don't like that term.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:29 AM

Ron D. - as I said before, read some of the posts on this very thread. That is the answer. IF you need some guidance, may I recommend posts from Janie, Goatfell, Joe Offer's description of the Sacramento Song Circle, Ref, Mted and others.   Even some of the people who are arguing against the use of the book (Don and Barry) mention song circles that use them, but have been going on for decades! How can a song circle survive for so long if NO ONE is enjoying it?

You are the one who is being delusional if you are ignorning all this "evidence". Sheesh. Lighten up. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a high school debate.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:39 AM

1) Direct quotes, please.

2)   If you read the same posts, you find admissions of lousy musical experiences. Nowhere near as likely without RUS.

3) Since the better musicians are driven away by RUS, the experience without them is likely to be inferior to a session with such musicians.


If you have never been to a session full of very talented people who were only too willing to share--as used to be the norm in FSGW sessions--you do not have enough data to comment with credibility. And I suspect this is the case.

I remember sitting at the feet of wonderful singers and instrumentalists at FSGW sessions.   With RUS, that will never happen again--since they just don't attend.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

Obviously, there are some good singers and players who attend--like Bill D. But I suspect that for them the FSGW session is not the priority it once was.

And that is directly traceable to RUS use.

Scads of good music is still being made--just not at RUS singarounds.

There is still a vibrant "folk community". But whereever there are other options, RUS is not involved.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:56 AM

"whereever people have better options"--and in fact that's everywhere. Just sitting on your porch and inviting a few people over is better than singing out of RUS--unless you are content with the RUS experience.

And the better musicians--which are the foundations of any folk community-- are never content with RUS sessions.

So RUS "building community" is a complete canard.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

Ron D - your opinion has been noted. I have submitted your "evidence" and you have submitted yours. I disagree with you, and so do others.

I've never said that RUS should be the sole source at sings, and I think it you really look for "evidence", you will find these sings are few and far between - and, they are not meant for people like you.    The book does serve a very good purpose and you are being delusional if you question that.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:05 AM

"And the better musicians--which are the foundations of any folk community-- are never content with RUS sessions."

No, "better musicians" are the foundations of a performing community. Folk music is sung in homes, at work and play. Folk music is not an exhibition, except since the "folk revival" where it was altered. The song circles that we are talking about found their roots then, and they continue to evolve. Yes, some now use books - hopefully not as the sole source. Hopefully people can begin singing without crutches again, but I pity those who feel a need to rally against it to satisfy some sort of issue they are having.


"So RUS "building community" is a complete canard."

Obviously your opinion has been shown to be false based on a number of posts and experiences shared on this thread.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:08 AM

"build community", specifically in folklore societies. I can certainly imagine RUS builds community in nursing homes, kids camps' and similar situations.   That is not the question.

Yet again, RUS is a fine book. Just not in folklore society singarounds.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:13 AM

"Yet again, RUS is a fine book. Just not in folklore society singarounds. "

As a blanket statement covering every "folklore society" sing, I do not think it is fair to say that.

If he folklore society can run it without it being used, fine. If they are able to encourage others and make them feel comfortable, fine.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:16 AM

If you do not think better musicians are the foundation of a folk community, you are, yet again, and unsurprisingly, deluding yourself yet again--and I'd hate to attend any gathering sponsored by you.

It's touching how you think "folk music is sung in homes" answers any question. Na und? Nice try in distraction. I have more than once pointed out it's great RUS is used in homes. That is not the issue.

The question is a very narrow one.   Does RUS use in folklore society singarounds help or hurt those singarounds?

The answer is obvious--and for the reasons I and others have stated.

No surprise you refuse to admit it.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

so much for encouraging new people to sessions and clubs, by saying that they are not allowed to bring their songbooks/songsheets, well if you don't like it then don't come.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

Well, it was an interesting discussion until you resorted to these tactics Ron D.

I think you need to define what you consider "folk community".

To answer your question, the use of RUS in folklore society singagrounds neither helps or hurts the event. The answer is obvious for the reasons that I and others have stated.   No surprise that YOU refuse to admit it.