BS: The Atheist Delusion

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:36 PM

I think there is a great difference between wanting to find your personal God and believing there is a real one out there and becoming part of what I think I'll describe as religious cults.

Very good point indeed, Jon. I'm not very convinced at all about the Bible though, it's far too open to interpretation to be universally useful. Despite it appearing to have some positive and beneficial content, there is plenty to the contrary for those willing to interpret it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:39 PM

"there is plenty to the contrary for those willing to interpret it that way"

Almost any document can be viewed in many ways,some honorable, some less so, if you have a reason to interpret and use it as such

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:43 PM

Fair comment Smokey.

To me, the foundations are love God and love thy neighbour. But can I get that right all the while? No

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 05:59 PM

Jon, who believe they are getting it right all the time are under the biggest delusion of all.. Don't beat yerself up, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:00 PM

Uh? That should be "Those who believe they are getting it right all the time are under the biggest delusion of all.. Don't beat yerself up, mate."

Sorry about that, but it illustrates my point :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:12 PM

I do not thik it is a beating up Smokey but I have been down that route.... These days I think it is more just recognising I'm not as smart as I'd like to think I am. It has not resolved my own "God Problems" or cured my drink problems but I think to believe one is not as wise as one might like to think is a step in the right direction.

Hope that makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:23 PM

I hope you don't mind some advice from a stranger, Jon, but concentrate on fixing your drink problem and you'll find many of your troubles behind you. We have to learn from our experiences, and drink can be a big obstacle in that process. Booze is not your friend, it's your enemy. Pack it in, or at least learn to control it with an iron fist.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:31 PM

That is almost fine by me Smokwy and I substandard what you are saying - booze just pretends to by your friend but is your enemy is too well understood... Why I get successions of real witnessed events and why I turn to my enemy are not understood by me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:34 PM

substandard for understand was not bad above...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:34 PM

... and yes, you made sense. A bit of humility goes a long way and in moderation is an admirable quality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 07:04 PM

why I turn to my enemy are not understood by me.

It's an addiction - if you can't handle it yourself, get professional help. I've watched several good mates drink themselves to death, and it aint pretty. No 'buts', do it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 07:45 PM

I hope it does not happen to me but I saw it once.

This part duplicates something I posted elsewhere. Poor old Alan. He was a WW11 navigator and could come to the house and declare "there was I, upside down flying my kite in the middle of the night". He came to cricket (he could off spin bowl btw( with us once and attacked cars on Llanwrst Bridge. He once tried to rip lights from Manchester airport runway . He once went to Ullupol then phone mum about ending it all

I'm afraid I fell out badly with him when he made some horrific sexual remarks about mum...

Only 2 locals went to his funeral but he did leave his memorials. A rock garden that may still exist (I live in Norfolk not Wales now) would say to me in memory of Alan. Also he planted some daffodils..

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:14 PM

Please make damn sure it doesn't happen to you, Jon. Life's worth more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:19 PM

My apologies to the thread for this digression.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:38 PM

Yes Smokey. There is nothing more horrible than falling out and feeling there is nothing more you can do for a person. It is actually
worse than just rowing.

We row at home perhaps too often but however badly know to pick up the pieces and try again. We can blow things grand style but...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:48 PM

dont apologize smokey;encouragement is better than some of the negatives on some posts.

one day at a time jon-with my prayers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 02:47 PM

Thanks Pete, it's a shame there aren't more contributors willing to offer a bit of support and encouragement.

As my granny didn't used to say - 'If there's a man overboard, you don't ask whether he's Welsh or not before you chuck him the rope.'

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

If God exists, that is OK with me. I am not going to rule that out.

If on the other hand there is no God and the believers are deluded, that does not bother me either

But then, why beat up on someone that believes there is a God?

What is the purpose? What does it accomplish? What are you going to convince them of?

What are the believers going to accomplish by arguing with the non believers?

Seems people must have better, more important things to do but argue religion.

Is mankind doomed because people have to find something to fight about? Is that natures plan? Part of survival of the fittest?

Whatever you believe in, if it makes you happy, I am happy too.

Shouldn't we all be happy or should we find things to argue about and be pissed off about?

This God / no God thing is a waste of time like the chicken or egg argument.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 03:47 PM

Well, it looks like it's time for a little quiz.   In fact only one question.

If you are living under a regime, which is more important for you: that regime's talk or its actions?

Clue:   "Talk is cheap."

Another clue ( for some of the slower atheists we seem to have with us on this thread now):

"Actions speak louder..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:13 PM

What do you think of Shostacovich's music, Ron?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:15 PM

Though my spelling be shite...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 05:58 PM

"Actions speak louder..."

Not over the internet, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:36 PM

So it appears we have one brilliant Mudcat atheist quoting Hitler:   "I am a Catholic."   And another stellar thinker (again an atheist, of course) saying that because Hitler said he was against atheism, he himself was not an atheist.

Sorry, this is evidence of nothing except the afore-mentioned gullibility of some Mudcat atheists--if that were ever in question.

Good thing said Mudcat atheists were not Germans living in the 3rd Reich--it sounds as if they would be easy marks for Hitler's propaganda.

I note also that even my little one-question quiz (complete with hints) has proven too difficult for the giant intellects of the Mudcat atheists we are honored to have with us.

Yet they claim to be reasonable people relying on logic to deal with issues.   Their grasp of logic evidently was not sufficient for the little quiz.

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 03:36 PM

sawsaw-sensible post essentially.as a believer i am more interested in sharing my faith than arguing it.i endeavour that to be the case in my contributions on these threads, in answer to atheist arguments

ron-while in broad agreement with your comments it does seem to me that if you expect responses,it might be a good idea to respond yourself to others.

jon-hope you,re doing OK.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 04:17 PM

Ron, you specifically asked for a quote of Hitler declaring his non-atheism which was not from one of his speeches or from 'Mein Kampf' and I gave you one, with no indication as to my opinion of it, as that would not have been relevant. Our opinions obviously differ - try and live with it. Personal insults are counter-productive to any discussion and your opinion of me is as completely and utterly irrelevant as mine of you.

There is no point whatsoever standing on your soapbox and declaring the same old stuff over and over again, no-one is here to have their mind changed. Save your energy for something useful or join in the discussion properly; I'm sure you are a far better man than the impression you are giving.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:38 PM

Is mankind doomed because people have to find something to fight about?

Personal belief would say mankind is doomed because our in general disbelief in God and our desires and greed for bad things.

Maybe from an any/non religious POV way to look at things would be to go for a walk in the mountains or on the beach or look in your garden. Then appreciate what is there, what might have been and what messes we can make with nature,

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:50 AM

Most of the back and forth and parallel arguments here, and in similar threads (with similar postings) have been discussed at length and summed up in a multitude of Internet sites, including the one below.

Matthew (whoever he is) has put much of it together in a easy to read format. A read could possibly reduce the number of threads dedicated to the same repeated (I never said tired) arguments   (Just a suggestion, not an argument, though it is possible it could start one). :)


An Introduction to Atheism (1997), by Matthew

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:18 AM

>Well if it's going to drift that way. I have a lovely snotty mate. He really can be snotty in mood is big and a bully to other cats but there is plenty loveable about hin. Meet Worthy the Snot Cat <

He is gorgeous Jon at least he is something nice to have a look at on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 05:33 PM

I like to think my cat's an atheist but it's really quite difficult to tell.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:12 PM

I think our cats are mostly believers in their own comfort and tummies...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:35 AM

My cat thinks he's God, but I think he's deluded. He plays the part pretty well, though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:48 AM

LOL John. You know the cat and dog one thats been posted here before?

In brief and I can't find the quote but sort of

dog: my master feeds and cares for me - he must be a God
cat: I can get food and comfort from my humans so I must be a God

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:02 AM

Dogs look up to people, cats look down on them.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:03 PM

True Dave. Odd thing is I love them both... Our other current pet Willie Weasels the (female it turned out) ferret is different again.

What is perhaps odder is the while I'd know a cat by their ways, at the same time, I'd know which one we have .once had by their personalties.

Perhaps the same could be said for humans though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:11 PM

Actually, what Hitler said or didn't say is irrelevant to this discussion unless you try to impugn atheism as a sort of nazism which seems to be implied, here. Hitler was a mad man and anything he says must be taken in that context.

The same would be true for anyone impugning atheism as a form of nazism or totalitarianism.

The fact that the Catholic Church helped Nazis is on historical record.

The fact that churches existed in Nazi Germany should tell you something.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:53 PM

The fact that churches existed in Nazi Germany should tell you something.

It seems to conclusively indicate that contrary to Ron's belief, Nazi Germany was not an 'atheist state' whether Hitler believed in God or not, and no-one will ever really know that. Only the individual can truly know what they believe, and I don't think that's often as clear-cut as is claimed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:35 PM

I'd personally suspect Hitler comes into the agnostic category.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:15 PM

It's impossible to tell, but the Churches certainly took his belief seriously. The notion that he was an atheist was propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:28 PM

I have no wish to start another thread for this, and this was the religion thread near the top.

Just read a New Yorker magazine...well, cartoons.

God is sitting at a desk on a cloud, looking peeved. Hovering at his shoulder is a smallish, teen-age looking angel.

Angel is saying: "Perhaps people would pay more attention to the Lord, if the Lord had a funny blog..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:34 PM

It's impossible to tell, but the Churches certainly took his belief seriously

the vicar of Bray is coming to mind

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:05 PM

Yes, Jon... I've always said that if Hitler had won, we'd now all be Catholic, and Catholicism would have taken a few steps back towards mediaeval times in its machinations.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:08 PM

But out of curiosity, would you also agree that is a misuse of belief?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:23 PM

Yes, I think most organised religion is a misuse of belief.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:38 PM

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you say most rather than all. There is a local church near me that is lovely for example. I'll join it one day. Margaret who keeps it going (it's actually COE but would have been shut down by the authorities had she and others not helped with funding) is a bend over backwards to help anyone type and it is communal in a nice way.

I think in more "official places" one can as well as the genuine run into very judgemental holier than thou s and while the latter can be a tempting route, these days, I think it is as mistaken as you can get...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:34 PM

If not closing the door on the possibility that there might be a God makes one sound like a believer, declaring there is no God makes one sound like they are afraid there might be a God.

Why protest the existence of something that does not exist?

Or keep repeating the claim that God does not exist?

Methinks thou dost protest too much!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:56 PM

Who's protesting?

If the god I don't believe in existed, the world would be a far better place than it actually is. There are times when the laws of physics are a dreadful inconvenience :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:58 PM

There is lot's I could question sawsawz, eg.

One can find onself in situations where anti-religious jokes are popular but you just once try to defend your belief and you will find "avoid him, he always talks religion" Say an an 20 anti comments to 1 pro comment ratio, the "always is totally illogical but it happens.

I've given up asking why that should be...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:14 AM

There is much none of understand Smokey. The tale of Adam and Eve, original sin or how perfection might have created imperfection is all beyond me. OTOH, I very much believe mankind has a lot to answer for...

From one very very personal point of view I just look around at nature these days and think what could have been. Despite it;s flaws, even our garden COULD *but isn;t* have been the Garden of Eden...

I think some of us who try to believe and deep down do belief can wreck our heads with this sort of stuff...

Hope that makes some sense from my personal POV. Jon

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:33 AM

On that question of "how perfection might have created imperfection," the best explanation I've heard is that we were created incomplete, with free will and infinite potential, so that we might also create.
I like that perspective.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:44 AM

Nice one Joe. This is the wrong place probably but that would lead me to the question why when (as I believe) nothing is impossible can many of us not even (at lest at times,,,) et even the most basics right? My own take would be lack of faith (as opposed to believing something is out there) but can I find faith to that degree?