BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM

My response to The Shaw. into which you contrived with uncanny timing to intervene, will perhaps furnish an answer to your query, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 12:58 PM

"archetypal leftie-wankerdom"

I must admit I do like that - well done MGM-Lion you have them described accurately to a 'T'.

Apologies for the typo Kenny B I promise to try harder in future, I did of course mean "sniping". All of that though does not excuse your deplorable lack of knowledge considering that you voluntarily saw fit to engage in a discussion making assertions that are clearly wrong to anyone with even the most rudimentary knowledge.

Jim Carroll of course does not have even rudimentary knowledge but once again he responds to what he thinks has been said as opposed to responding to what actually has been said - missing the mark by a "Kerry Mile" as usual. Pssst Jim we are talking about EU COMMISSIONERS NOT MEPs.

As to "crooked" bankers? Nobody complained when bankers were making spectacular profits which unlike Starbucks, Vodaphone, Google, et al, did pay their corporate taxes. The likes of Alex Salmond and Gordon Brown praised them and piled honours on them. Then along came a US President called Bill Clinton who in 1998 to demonstrate to all that the American Dream was still alive and kicking persuaded the main US Mortgage Brokers Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae to provide mortgages to people who should never have been lent a red cent. The lie not so much told but inferred as those Mortgage Brokers arranged mortgages with various banks and lending institutions was that the Federal Reserve would guarantee those loans, which of course they wouldn't. Now lots of people, bankers included actually believed this inferred and completely baseless guarantee. So when the S**T hit the fan in 2008 the Fed truthfully stated that they knew nothing about any guarantee, unfortunately when in November 2008 GWB asked Congress to approve $740 million to cover this, they said NO. Had they said YES there would have been no crash, there would have been no loss in confidence in the lending institutions. The reason the Democrat dominated Congress said No was because they wanted their man Barack Obama to ride to the rescue, which he did in February 2009, unfortunately by then it wasn't $740 million it was $834 million but by then it was too little and far too damn late. Why the banks had to be saved? Simple really, had they been allowed to fail, millions of people would have lost their savings, hundreds of thousands of businesses would have been forced to close their doors, with the subsequent loss of jobs, those who did not lose their jobs would not have been able to be paid, it would have been complete and utter chaos - so the Government did what it HAD TO DO and in so doing saved the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:05 PM

And pompous with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:21 PM

Jim, how happy are you with the EU election results under PR?

The result was UKIP first, with 24 seats.
Labour second with 20.
Conservative third with 19.

The following year at the General Election under FPtP, Ukip got just 2 seats.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:26 PM

"Jim, how happy are you with the EU election results under PR?"
Does it matter - if a system is undemocratic, as it certainly was (and intended to be in the Six Counties), it doesn't become any less undemocratic because it doesn't get your man into Parliament.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:33 PM

"Pssst Jim we are talking about EU COMMISSIONERS NOT MEPs."
And EU Commissioners, like cabinet ministers are appointed not elected - you boorish lout.
Why should that be an issue in Europe?
Were you brought up loutish or did you have to go to college to learn it?
"As to "crooked" bankers? Nobody complained when bankers were making spectacular profits which unlike Starbucks, Vodaphone, Google, et al, did pay "
Peploe complained when their behaviour sent the economy belly-up and we found out what a bunch of crooks they really where - excusing their dishonest puts you were you are.
Or are you suggesting that self-serving dishonesty is OK because nobody knows about it?
Didn't they teach you about morals and responsibility when you hold responsible public positions?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:43 PM

Check out John Oliver's take on the issue from last night's "This Week Tonight". Showstopper of an ending!










Ruddy Great Belgian Bastards!
Monty Python


"The English the English the English are best, I wouidn't give tuppence for all of the rest!"
Flanders and Swann

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:12 PM

And EU Commissioners, like cabinet ministers are appointed not elected - you boorish lout.
Why should that be an issue in Europe?

Why oh why Jom do you always miss the point and always end up comparing apples to oranges???

The role of EU Commissioners cannot be compared to the role of Cabinet Ministers in any national government. Member states appoint Commissioners to the EU Council of Commissioners, in a national government cabinet ministers, most of whom have already been elected as members of the representative body, although in the UK members of the Lords can be appointed as Cabinet Ministers, but all Cabinet Members are appointed by the Political Party that has been elected to govern the country.

Now Kenny B assured us all that it was a fact that all EU Commissioners were elected MEPs they are not - that is fact.

He also tried to tell us {paraphrased} that in the UK the 'unelected' Civil Service dream up whatever legislation is put before Parliament - that is not true and nothing could be further from the truth.

Before Kenny B makes a point of it, who is this character Peploe who complained? You cliché ridden archetypal leftie-wanker - as you seem to be in the name calling mood {Thanks again Michael - you are a gem}

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM

So as not to disappoint
Was it a typo? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM

It happens to the best? of us

Rudimentry Reading by Boris

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:56 PM

"Why oh why Jom do you always miss the point "
WILL YOU ******* STOP TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE - YOU'VE MADE AN IDIOT OF YOURSELF IN THE PAST BY DOING SO AND YOU CONTINUE TO HERE - WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? YOU REALLY AREN'T THE BRIGHTEST STARTFISH IN ANYBODY'S SANDBUCKET NO MATTER WHT ILLUSIONS YOU HAVE OF YOURSELF!!
The appointment to any body is on the basis that they represent that body and not the interests of one particular interest - they are there to serve the interest of the body, not individual states, that is fought for by the MEPs.
Do youreally not understand that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:56 PM

"Why oh why Jom do you always miss the point "
WILL YOU ******* STOP TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE - YOU'VE MADE AN IDIOT OF YOURSELF IN THE PAST BY DOING SO AND YOU CONTINUE TO HERE - WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? YOU REALLY AREN'T THE BRIGHTEST STARTFISH IN ANYBODY'S SANDBUCKET NO MATTER WHAT DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR YOU HAVE OF YOURSELF!!
The appointment to any body is on the basis that they represent that body and not the interests of one particular interest - they are there to serve the interest of the body, not individual states, that is fought for by the MEPs.
Do youreally not understand that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 03:03 PM

Perhaps one of the passing forum fairies who were quick enough to close down threads when we were all slagging each other off might oblige with a quick word in this feller's ear abut his insulting behaviour before this thread goes belly-upward - perhaps that's what he's after.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

Why I wonder, did Boris take so long to make up his mind about which side to support.
He had something to lose if he followed David Cameron and he lost.
Had nothing to lose if his side won and a lot to gain.
Or maybe it was a case of who offered the biggest "incentive" to join them.
Nobody on any of the debates has been allowed to ask him or Michael Gove how much they would personally gain in monetary terms by supporting the "Leave" campaign
In the words of the infamous Bluebottle "Just a thought"

In a northern accent " if some buddy Brexit and it cannie be fixed should I vote for it"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 04:46 PM

Well then 'Wolfie' my little ALW, when it comes to discussion on this forum I am not hampered and tied by your bankrupt, disproven, tired and outdated clichés, mind-set, inverted snobbery and Anglophobia that belong to half-a-century ago.

Your new pal was wrong and if you want to talk of anybody making a fool of themselves on this forum you just continue as you have been doing. If you want two words to describe the Brussels set up that accurately reflects them those words would be corrupt and unaccountable.

IF you think I am talking down to you Carroll then the remedy is simple - RAISE YOUR GAME by trying a bit of original thought and application.

Kenny B if it is thoughts of venal gain that concern you. Where is your condemnation for the Kinnocks who acquired over £10 million supping at the EU trough and acting as paid political lackeys in their own right sitting in the House of Lords.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:31 PM

I'd just like to mention that the spinning of the horrific killing of Jo Cox by the Remain campaign was just about the most cynical and disgusting political action of recent years.

For Cameron to personally link Mr Farage and the Leave campaign in general to the murder, for political gain, was inexcusable.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:32 PM

If you haven't already seen it From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:36 PM

Sorry, something went badly wrong with that link and it has garbled two posts together, didn't realise you could do that!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:51 PM

Here is the video that I tried to link to above which is a summary by someone who actually works in the field.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 08:52 PM

It is perfectly reasonable to infer a link between the murder of Jo Cox by a deranged fanatic, identifying himself as a "patriot" and the increasingly xenophobic rhetoric of elements in the leave campaign.

I would suspect that there will be a good number of till now undecided voters who will come down on the Remain side because they infer such a link.

That is not the same thing as suggesting a direct link. And so far as I'm aware no one has suggested or implied any such link.
..............
As has been pointed out, government ministers are not elected any more than EU commissioners. The process is that the Commission President, who is elected by the European Parliament for a term of five years, is presented with a list of commissioners appointed by EU govenments, and chooses which posts to give them. The complete list of appointed commissioners is then taken back, and is accepted or rejected a whole.

In a sense this is fairly similar to the Westminster model, where Parliament approves a Prime Minister who has been appointed formally by the reigning monarch, on the basis that he or she is able to win a vote of confidence in the Commons. The Prime Minister has absolute authority to appoint anyone he or she likes to be a Minister (they can always be appointed to the Alords if need be), and the Commns has no say in it.

Both systems are partly democratic, partly the reverse. The EU model, constrained by the non-federal structure of the EU, means that by definition Commissioners cannot all come from the same party, and that the whole system is intrinsically multi-party. This has disadvanrages as well as advantages. But not many Brexiters complaining about a democratic shhortfall are advocating a move towards a more fedderal system.

It is possible to think of reforms that would increase democratic control, but of course tyat can only be brought about by people in the EU acting together.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 02:43 AM

"I am not hampered and tied by your bankrupt, disproven, tired and outdated clichés,"
No - you are hampered and tied by your own attitude to others.
Just as nobody here is impressed by your goosestepping bullying
You have been given my, and other people's reasons for arguing as you do - in typical of your kind fashion you have responded with bullshit and bluster, as you do - it hasn't served you well here in the past and there are no signs of it having done so here.
Your contempt for the members of this forum is palpable - even if you had arguments worth considering, your self-absorbed arrogance prevents them from getting across
Keep it up - every little helps, as the man from Tesco says.
At ease, Captain Mainwearing.
"For Cameron to personally link Mr Farage and the Leave campaign in general to the murder, for political gain, was inexcusable."
For Farrage to make immigrants the main target in an election in a way no other party has done in the past is an indication that his party is a neo-fascist racist driven one.
"It is perfectly reasonable to infer a link between the murder of Jo Cox by a deranged fanatic,"
Perhaps it's worth reproducing this from yesterday's Times:
Jim Carroll

"FAR-RIGHT GROUPS 'ARE INCITING HATE ON SOCIAL MEDIA'
Gabriella Swelling, Fiona Hamilton, Georgie Keate
Police are being urged to investigate extreme right-wing groups and their incitement activities after a series of hateful messages were published on social media in the wake of Jo Cox's murder.
Nationalist groups have been accused of glorifying Thomas Mair, Mrs Cox's accused killer, crowing about the attack and making excuses for it.
It comes amid concern about the rise of the far right in pockets of the UK, notably in Yorkshire, with violence at anti-immigration marches and in¬creasing anti-Muslim hate crimes.
In the days since Mrs Cox's death scores of members of far-right organisations have taken to social me¬dia to make threats to other MPs and to crow about the fate of the 41-year-old mother, who was a prominent cam¬paigner for remaining in the EU.
The northeast unit of National Action, which has campaigned for Britain to leave the EU, tweeted: "VoteLeave, don't let this man's sacrifice go in vain. Jo Cox would have filled Yorkshire with more subhumans."
The police northeast counterterrorism unit confirmed they were probing a number of "offensive messages on social media and extreme social media content". A spokesman said: "We are conducting checks on this material to establish whether or not any criminal offences have been committed."
There have been numerous other disturbing messages from far-right supporters in other areas of the coun¬try, resulting in calls for police to moni¬tor and investigate online hatred.
A member of the English Defence League, another far-right group, posted on Facebook: "Many of us have been saying for years that sooner or later "SOMEONE" was going to get killed. No one thought it was going to be one of "them" (left-wing) who was going to be the first victim of the coming civil unrest heading towards Europe... BUT he had reached his breaking point (like many of us) and snapped."
One Twitter user described Mrs Cox as a "traitor" while another said she was a "threat to the UK" and described Mr Mair as an "Aryan warrior". Another group, linked to a news story of Mrs Cox's calling itself the Notts Casual Infidels, murder and posted on Facebook: "We knew it was only a matter of time before we take it to the next level. We have been mugged off for too long."
A man associated with Pegida UK, an anti-Islam group, posted on Facebook: "From today the game changed as a good friend said have a look at today's date 16/06/2016. Next time the government must listen to its people."
Matthew Collins, head of research at Hope not Hate, a charity that seeks to defeat the politics of extremism within British communities, said he was con¬cerned that "there are a number of tiny, right-wing organisations that are taking great glory and satisfaction from Jo's death".
He added: "I think the police should look at the motives behind some of those people that are continuing to speak so much hatred and division."
Mr Collins said that although there were many people who did not agree with or vote for Mrs Cox, "they had the decency to recognise the contribution she made to wider society".
Referring to hateful messages posted on social media, he said: "These people are so on the margins of society that they no longer have any sense of moral decency or moral codes. I think the police should look at the motives behind some of those people that are continuing to speak so much hatred and division and are well aware of what such words have led to. These people are engaged in a whole network of tearing down the moral fabric of society."
Stephen Kinnock, the MP who shared an office with Mrs Cox, was subjected to "particularly venomous" online abuse last week after an article about his family's support for the Remain campaign. One email threatened violence and has been reported to the police, he said.
Mr Kinnock said the far right were a "shady bunch" who had many of their "views legitimised by the referendum and the choice of the Leave campaign to go hard on immigration".
"I get the sense that a lot of rhetoric around the Leave campaign would have been classified as far right only five years ago but now' it's more mainstream. For example, I don't think any political party would have put up that poster of Nigel Farage's then.
"There seems to have been a drum beat over the years for venomous rhe¬toric. A lot of this referendum would have been classified as pretty extreme.
"Many MPs have a siege mentality because of the abuse, so I do think something needs to be done about it, but the question is what. You've got to get a balance between free speech and protecting people's security. The last thing we'd want to do is never hold surgeries, then the bad guys have won."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 05:53 AM

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 04:46 PM

Kinnock Income - Daily Mail

Kinnocks income , initially horrified then I thought what is the going rate for this kind of work? I thought maybe Teribus will know.

The Daily Mail does good hatchet jobs on opponents and their families but it doesn't give comparisons against the "troughing" of Chris Patten over the same period or Leon Brittan over a period of roughly twice the length of the two others purely as examples of UK commissioners from around the same era.
The article also doesn't give a breakdown of the 10m ballpark figure so I ask myself, why? I.m sure it would have provided a breakdown and comparison if it was to its advantage.
Conclusion - Typical Daily Mail rhetoric with no attempt at context in a feeble attempt to influence people to vote Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM

Kenny B wrote: The Daily Mail does good hatchet jobs on opponents and their families but it doesn't give comparisons against the "troughing" of Chris Patten over the same period or Leon Brittan over a period of roughly twice the length of the two others purely as examples of UK commissioners from around the same era.

The £10 million is a mix of past salaries, allowances and pension benefits that allow a super affluent retirement. They probably don't have millions to spend at will. However the point that the EU is a super gravy train for past politicians explains why so many of them are in favour. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 09:54 AM

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas? Well, many would say that is precisely what the Brexiters are trying to persuade the voters to do.

The thing that has been left out of the picture most of the time is that this is not an even choice where you haver around and then come down on the one that on balance appeals.

Out means out - there is no way back. If we have second thoughts down the line, tough. We will never have the option to return to the status quo. Remain, in contrast, is essentially provisional. If we think it wss the wrong choice, we can always decide to leave at any future timme. It's built into the EU treaty. The choice is in our own hands, and always will be.

Only people who are 100 per cent certain that etting out is the right thing to do should even consider voting for it. Any hesitation or uncertain, and voting remain is the only rational thing to do - whatever doubts we might have about whether it is the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:14 AM

Interesting to note that the Sterling rose in value yesterday on the basis of an estimates 53% support for staying compared to 46% for Brexit.
While its galling to think of these prickeens gambling on our futures, it is an indication of how serious they are taking the possibility of Britain leaving
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:14 AM

Some more information for you Kenny B:

Get elected as an MEP
With your Pay + Allowances (All Tax Free) for five years.
That earns you an 80% full pay Pension which is automatically taxed at the lowest rate of tax within the EU irrespective of where you actually live.
You get tax free lump sums to move in and a similar one to leave. If you manage it right you do not actually have to touch your "Salary" for five years.
That is just for an ordinary MEP. The real gravy train starts if you manage to wangle yourself onto EU Parliamentary committees - then you can really start milking the cow.
Best of all however if you manage to get yourself appointed as an EU Commissioner.

Remember the Queen's Speech that Kinnock as Leader of the Opposition refused to attend in the Palace of Westminster because of his deep seated objection to the institution of the Upper Chamber - Overcame those objections PDQ when he was offered his own seat in the place at £300 per day sitting or £150 per day if absent. Neil tends not to sit, while wifie a "Lord" in her own right likes the money and signs in to collect it - doesn't do much else though - hypocrites or what?

By the way Kevin, to become the Prime Minister of the UK you have to have been elected to the House of Commons - now tell me what you have to be elected to, to become the President of the European Union Commission, or become the President of the European Council for that matter - the answer of course is nothing - both are selected from a list of appointees - "the people" have no say and once in place they cannot be removed.

Now the Cabinet of the UK on the other hand:
"Ministers of the Crown, and especially Cabinet ministers, are selected primarily from the elected members of House of Commons, and also from the House of Lords, by the Prime Minister."

Nice try Kevin but there is one hell of a difference.

European Parliament = useless talking shop with no power whatsoever.
European Commission = Unelected clique who dictate policy and further their own interests without any regard for anybody else. Without doubt the most corrupt and unaccountable body on the face of this earth - wouldn't surprise me if Sepp Blatter was appointed as the next President of the EU Commission - after all he did such a great job at FIFA.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:51 AM

Look on the bright side Teribus, the Kinnocks getting paid is better than some "Johnny Foreigner" eh.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 11:03 AM

If "Remain" does manage to win, just how bitter a loser will the "Leave" lot be...???

What will their next move be...???


.. a coup.....????? 😰

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 11:52 AM


If "Remain" does manage to win, just how bitter a loser will the "Leave" lot be...???

Well, I don't anticipate many of them saying that's democracy and the will of the electorate so we will shut up about it from now on ...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 11:52 AM


If "Remain" does manage to win, just how bitter a loser will the "Leave" lot be...???

Well, I don't anticipate many of them saying that's democracy and the will of the electorate so we will shut up about it from now on ...


Equally if we do vote to leave and there IS a huge market crash exactly as all the experts predict, I don't expect Gove and co to be searching for humble pie to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:20 PM

"Equally if we do vote to leave and there IS a huge market crash exactly as all the experts predict, I don't expect Gove and co to be searching for humble pie to eat."

Explain to us all why there would be a huge market crash.

On the morning after a vote to leave we will still remain members of the EU for at least two years.

Jim Sillars put it brilliantly the other night:

If it is vitally important for us to consider and protect our£228 billion trade with Europe Why is it considered unimportant for the rest of the EU and the troubled and stagnant Eurozone to protect their £282 billion with us?

Of course there will be negotiations if we vote to leave.

6% of British companies do trade with Europe but 100% of our companies have to pander to the thousands of rules and regulations and cope with the red tape in order to trade with Europe - WHY?

Switzerland and Singapore have made bilateral trade deals throughout the world that have been worth five times the deals made by the EU over the same period - So where is this marked international advantage in being part of the EU?

By staying as part of the EU we cut ourselves off from 80% of the world. Our best performing earner the City of London does not suit the EU - they want to see it severely reduced as they (Germany) want the financial centre of Europe to be Frankfurt - they've already had one good crack at it, which we knocked back.

Last but by no means least can any of the "Remain Brigade" tell me why it is that those in charge of the EU cannot produce a set of balanced accounts that shows where the EU's money has gone? And you seriously want to be part of this circus??

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:22 PM

If remain win, it may come to be seen as a mistake by those who voted for it.
Come the 2020 election, as in 2015 the Tories will fear a loss of support to UKIP and may have to offer another referendum to avoid it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:50 PM

"Equally if we do vote to leave and there IS a huge market crash exactly as all the experts predict, I don't expect Gove and co to be searching for humble pie to eat."

Explain to us all why there would be a huge market crash.

There is no point. Firstly, as you are not willing to listen to all the economists who predict it, I don't delude myself you will listen to non-expert me. Secondly, I said 'if' there was a crash, not 'there will be', so I don't have to demonstrate a certainty I didn't claim. But thirdly, should we vote leave we will know one way or the other soon enough without wasting time debating it now.

But I am to read your response as suggesting that IF we vote leave and IF there is a crash, you will be posting here, eating humble pie, saying you were wrong? Somehow, I doubt you are any more likely to do that than Gove or Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:59 PM

Thanks Teribus
but why single out the Kinnocks for being two faced when there are so many others to choose from..

Keith, Keith, Oh please don't threaten us with another fnrendum.
Is that an attempt at scare tactics that has come too late, one that nobody dared give the light of day till now.
Just think of all those politicians, pundits and half-Pun-dits who will jump on the gravy train of giving an opinion.
Have mercy on the mods of Mudcat if nothing else

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:24 PM

"If it is vitally important for us to consider and protect our£228 billion trade with Europe Why is it considered unimportant for the rest of the EU and the troubled and stagnant Eurozone to protect their £282 billion with us?"

Possibly because that £282 billion is divided amongst 28 member states thus £10 billion per nation if divided equally.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:25 PM

DMcG the question is perfectly valid and still holds good. YOU obviously believe it, yet you cannot state why you believe it - Because a "Big Boy" told me?? I obviously must tend to question things more than you as I can state clearly why I think we will be better off in the long term out of Europe and trading with the rest of the world.

By the bye, did your "experts" give any time frame for this inevitable "huge market crash" that I must apologise for should we vote leave? Tell me does a weakened £ help or hinder our exports? Our currency has been too strong for too long, if we leave the Euro will weaken too, then of course there are all those non-binding not quite written in stone promises that "Call-me-Dave" got about us not having to bail out Eurozone countries - they will go out the window as soon as the next inevitable crisis hits the EU's idiotic currency.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:29 PM

You've forgotten to put some blame on decimalisation as well Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:38 PM

Anyone the Prime Minister wishes to become a member of his cabinet can and will promptly be given a seat in the House of Lords.

The point is, no one elects cabinet members or other ministers. No one even has any say apart from the Prime Minister, who was of course never subject to popular vote for that post.

Having the Chief Commissioner elected by popular vote would undoubtedly be a reform resisted to the hilt by all those who fear moves towards a federal structure for the EU. Indirect election by MEPs who have all been themselves elected is the compromise that has been adopted. The same way essentially that our Prime Minister is determined, apart from the relic of the monarch's role of actually appointing the person involved.

Talking shop? That's what the word parliament actually means. Talking being seen as a preferable way of sorting out things than fighting.

The fact that MPs have been individually elected to do one job, representing and serving their constituents, in no way means that they are in any way suited to do the very different job of running ministries etc. The American system where the equivalent of ministers are selected from non-elected members of the public, but subject to approval and rejection by the legislature has problems, is arguably more democratic. There is something to be said for introducing that both for the Commons and the EU.

In the Commons having this system, with sitting MPs not being eligible for government jobs, would end the ability of Prime Ministers to subvert the independence of the Commons by appointing a sizeable payroll vote who cannot act independently.

Undoubtedly the EU needs democratising reforms - as does the British system - but the so-called "reforms" David Cameron was after had nothing to do with getting them. A serious drive by to get them would win support from like-minded people in other countries. If in the next EU election there was a slate of candidates in all countries committed to getting those kind of reforms it might make for an election worth getting stuck into.

But of course that means not taking the irrevocable gamble of voting for out this week.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:52 PM

"Because a "Big Boy" told me?? "
Beats taking the word of a serial bullshitter every time
Jim Carroll
Financial Times

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 02:06 PM

Your FT article is neutral Jim.
What was your point?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 02:13 PM

DMcG the question is perfectly valid and still holds good. YOU obviously believe it, yet you cannot state why you believe it - Because a "Big Boy" told me?? I obviously must tend to question things more than you

i can only smile at that last bit, and I am sure some of the regulars here will smile at it too.

What makes you imagine I can't state why I hold the opinion I do? My policy on this site is to discuss things freely with anyone, but not to get into pointless arguments.   As to the question being valid, I only claimed ia crash 'could' happen not that it 'would'. I am sure you appreciate the difference. I deny it will happen, I assert it could happen.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 03:21 PM

"Your FT article is neutral Jim."
You haven't read it properly - it gives the pros and cons from an expert point of view allowing the readers to decide for themselves and take into consideration everything it doesn't cover, for instance, do I want to support a campaign that it 'fortress Britain' based and targeted specifically at immigrants and asylum seekers.
What is says on balance is the gains of leaving are fairly unfathomable and marginal, the immediate losses fairly clear and the long term ones - again 'blowin' in the wind'- not exactly "neutral" but I assume you mean, not making a suggestion of which way you should vote - fine by me - I'm capable of doing that fore myself if I am given enough "neutral" evidence to work with.
The F.T, is aimed at economists and investors anyway and as they are very much a part of the problem with Britain, I'm not likely to welcome any suggestion as to who to vote for anyway.
I know that goes against your particularly way of approaching things.
I don't begin to understand the economics of Europe but I know enough to realise this "winning back" of an independence we don't possess is crap.
So - you look at the figures, weigh up what side you are on as a human being and make up your mind on your conclusions - doesn't win any competitions so it's not for you.
The facts that would help me to decide are ethical and moral ones.
I know the neo-fascist right has based their campaign on pure racism - not for me.
Ukip racism
The actual fascists have shown what they are made of with the killing of Jo Cox - certainly a reason to vote stay.
Jo Cox, Brexit and the politics of hate
So - you look at the figures, weigh up what side you are on as a human being and make up your mind on your conclusions - doesn't win any competitions so it's not for you.
Of course we could forget everything and just take Teribus's advice - sure we could!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM

I hadn't seen this before, but anyone care to join Boris?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 03:27 AM

DMcG....You have cited a post of mine which was unaccountably deleted.
I cannot understand what point you are attempting to make, though I notice that Jim has continued to link the campaign to gain some sort of control over immigration to "hated" of foreigners, racism, xenophobia, etc, etc.
People who lead and support withdrawal from the EU, have made it clear that immigration of some sort will always be required, but that to have no control over who comes here from the very poorest countries in the EU and in what numbers, is absolute ideological madness......the present policy of the EU on "free movement of people" is exploitative of the poorer countries and damaging to THEIR infrastructures......it is simply indefensible.

---

I don't see any deleted messages from Akenaton in this thread. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 03:39 AM

The actual fascists have shown what they are made of with the killing of Jo Cox - certainly a reason to vote stay.

Is the attempt to kill Trump a reason to vote for him?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 04:09 AM

"Is the attempt to kill Trump a reason to vote for him?"
Just the opposite - if somebody had drowned Hitler in a bucket at birth the world would be a far better place.
If Trump triumphs there are going to be a hell of a lot of people dying as a direct cause of his policies.
Don't you dare compare heroes like Jo Cox to scum like Trump - haven't you learned your lesson yet?
None of you people have responded to the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies - though you did get your fingers badly burnt on the Jo Cox thread with your tasteless, but very revealing intervention there.
I take your silence to be a further indication of your own position on this matter, as I do Ake's old usual anti-immigration rant.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM

No, ake, my posts related to comments by Teribus. Any relationship to posts by you is accidental.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 05:48 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: None of you people have responded to the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies

I'll respond. This is wishful thinking, a typical left wing rant.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 05:59 AM

"I'll respond. This is wishful thinking, a typical left wing rant."
Bit late in the day, don'cha think?
I have never experienced such an extremist, openly race-based right wing election campaign in Britain - not ever.
Evn Powell's "rivers of Blood" had him thrown out of the Tory party and any acceptable to the Northern Irish Unionists.
Keeping "them" out has been the main objective of the Brexists.
In that light I'm more than happy to be described as a "typical left winger" - must get a tee-shirt.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:05 AM

The Brexit mob have been told to chant brainlessly "take back control" at the end of every other sentence. It means "take back control from all these Johnny Foreigners."