homage to Rise Up Singing

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:27 AM

Ron, I'm sorry to have implied you and your buddies might be playing poker for anything other than love of the game.

However, poker normally does involved money changing hands, which makes it fundamentally different from group singing

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:44 AM

Ya' know Ted......You got a real nasty streak in you. I like that!

Spaw {;<))

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:51 AM

Poppa - the reason we play poker isn't so much for the love of the game, but for the social aspect of getting together and having a few beers and laughs. THAT is where is SIMILAR in respect to group singing - a spirit that brings people together.   Of course the actual function differs dramatically.

Mary, those were lovely videos. IF someone had been reading from a book or a cue card, would that change your feeling about the video? If the soundtrack did not change one note, would you have felt differently if you saw someone reading a sheet of music?

I still feel that there is confusion or failure to understand what many of us are saying. NO ONE is recommending that books be used in this thread. NO ONE. Read all 300 or so notes to confirm.

People are throwing about terms like "folk process", which in itself is nothing more than a theory created by a brilliant individual and adopted by the folk community. It is also a misunderstood theory.

A group sing has absolutely NOTHING to do with a folk process. The events that have been described here are manufactured gatherings developed in the later half of the 20th century. To the dismay of some, they continue to evolve and they continue to be diverse.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having different types of group sings. Water finds its own level.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM

I am not mean at all, but love good fun, and I really did sing along!--If you liked that one, here's an Even Better Latvian Video Clip

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:55 AM

Also, it occurred to me that some of the Indian women looked like that wished that they had songbooks so they could join in.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:59 AM

It's also possible to sing a song from memory AND sing (and play) one from a text while still learning, and both enjoy it yourself and please a supportive group of fellow singers. It's all this bright line drawing I object to.

Ref, this ISN'T what I said. Whether a song is authored or handed down, singing that song in public should ideally be from memory, whatever the source, at least in the context we are discussing. Big name performers, say in an operatic recital, might have the music in front of them, but they know the piece very well, they aren't standing staring at the music. It is there as a reminder of where they are, what comes next, and probably most importantly, what everyone else around them is doing. But we're talking about self-selected groups of folk singing enthusiasts.

I will reiterate: I posted early on this thread supporting those who don't like "performers" standing with their faces down in a book singing from the pages. If you're going to a song circle to share, then you need to already know the song from heart and have incorporated it into your oeuvre enough to be able to simply sing it. I make the distinction of reading from the pages of a book as practice (how you learn the song--at home) and sharing (in public) what you already know.

Now if you're a practitioner of the true oral tradition, the folk process, and you're learning a song in a public setting and not off of a page, then you're listening and learning and singing along, but you're not leading the song.

SRS

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:07 AM

"Whether a song is authored or handed down, singing that song in public should ideally be from memory, whatever the source, at least in the context we are discussing. Big name performers, say in an operatic recital, might have the music in front of them, but they know the piece very well, they aren't standing staring at the music. It is there as a reminder of where they are, what comes next, and probably most importantly, what everyone else around them is doing. But we're talking about self-selected groups of folk singing enthusiasts."

Where has it been written in stone that "folk singing enthusiasts" require these rules?   You chose the proper word - "enthusiasts", just as there are "enthusiasts" for opera, choral music, sacred music, etc.   The other groups can have a wonderful experience using books and yet the "folk" community has a requirement that to sing in a manufactured setting a book should not be used?    More power to those who can sing without one, and everyone should be encouraged to sing from memory, but I think we create our own barriers.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:11 AM

"Now if you're a practitioner of the true oral tradition, the folk process, and you're learning a song in a public setting and not off of a page, then you're listening and learning and singing along, but you're not leading the song. "

If you are a TRUE practitioner of the "true" oral tradition (whatever that could be), then you would be singing in "true" settings and not in a group that gets together once a month in a church basement.   

If you want an analogy, what we are doing is nothing different from Civil War re-enactors who spend a weekend sleeping in a tent playing with toy guns and then driving home in their BMW's for the rest of the week. It's great fun and should be encouraged, but it is not the "true" experience.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

Ron, I'm not going to argue with you, I stated an opinion and a preference in the light of someone else asserting that my earlier statement bolstered his opinion. It did not.

I am reminded of how I learned folk dances back in the days when I lived near an active folkdance community and danced every week. One got behind a row or line or group of dancers who knew the dance and you were not in the way as you watched and practiced the steps to learn the dance. You didn't join in the line or the square or the circle until you had the rudiments at least, so you weren't going to trip up the rest of the dancers.

Those who wanted to start out with the experienced dancers were generally taken aside and told how to learn it or someone taught them the steps away from the line. If you went there to dance, you wanted to dance, and learners of a given dance were expected to learn in a way that didn't impede the enjoyment of everyone else. This analogous approach is one I would also consider appropriate also in the song circle setting. If you have the book along, don't plan to lead the song from it, learn the song in the background first.

SRS

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:23 AM

Do folk musicians have to do songs that somebody else did first? That's a hard question to answer. I like to think that there is room for new songs based on tradition. Again, I bring up one of my favorite singer/songwriters Jean Ritchie (sorry if I embarrass you, Jean) for taking the tradition she grew up with and adding to it with fine songs.

If a songwriter or singer is inspired by the folk music of the past, shouldn't they be allowed to participate in this process? Isn't that really the experience of the so-called "folk singer" of the past? What is the "true experience"? We all sing songs that we were not historically there for. This is true of the so-called real folk singers.

Isn't this just another way of lauding the "Noble Savage" for being pure and uncorrupted?
(Rousseau and Dryden revisited?) It seems to me that the vitality of folk music, (the music of working-class people, agrarian folks, those coming from a specific tradition such as African-American or ?) is about the life it brings through (here's that controversial word again) "Evolution".

Folk music has to evolve to exist in my opinion. There are some anthropologists who have a "classical" bent who want to study cultures unsullied by outside contact. Herskovitz and the Golden Bough come to mind. This in my opinion is a form of "scalp collecting". Pete, one of my heroes, maintained that a vital folk music is one in which anyone can contribute and allow it to grow.

In my opinion, (and I obviously have too many for my own good,) studying a culture and its music has a reward in which those who do their homework can participate somehow in it. I look at the Seegers for example. Also Jean Ritchie and Bess Lomax Hawes. This is what many of us "city folkies" try to do. Study and participate.

This is the light I would like to see shine more on the songs rather than whether the
lyrics are read out of a book or memorized. We are not automatons who robotically
spout lyrics and songs that are over a century old. This is bloodless academia in my opinon. We have a historical and cultural right to internalize the music of our forebears and make it our own. Whether we do this with RUS or by memory doesn't matter.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

SRS - please do not think of this as an "arguement". This is a discussion and there are no hard feelings meant. You stated an opinion and I offered my own. Neither one of us, nor anyone else on this thread, is making definitive statements as to what should.

"This is the light I would like to see shine more on the songs rather than whether the lyrics are read out of a book or memorized. We are not automatons who robotically spout lyrics and songs that are over a century old. This is bloodless academia in my opinon. We have a historical and cultural right to internalize the music of our forebears and make it our own. Whether we do this with RUS or by memory doesn't matter."

Frank, I think your few sentences have summed up what the essence of what I and others have been trying to express in this lengthy thread.   Sing for the song!

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

We have a historical and cultural right to internalize the music of our forebears and make it our own. Whether we do this with RUS or by memory doesn't matter.

Yes, but to be clear again, I'm discussing a particular context only, not all music at large. Spontaneous performance suffers when it stumbles over an unrehearsed performer. That's the gist of it. No "cold blooded academia" here.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

"Spontaneous performance suffers when it stumbles over an unrehearsed performer."

That may be the difference in all of our "interpretations" of sings. Are the group sings that we have been discussing considered a "performance" or is it a group activity, or is it both?    I don't think there is a right or wrong answer as there it has become obvious that there are many different sings.   We just need to know what animals have been grazing about before we tap dance in the pasture.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

I consider them a group activity. I am not interested in listening to even very good "performers" go around a big circle one by one and have to listen to them politely too. My politeness veneer is obviously wearing thin...I personally don't care if a person rehearses or not as long as the group can take over..still allowing the leader to set the rhythm and tune (as long as it is not absolutely hopeless and then more support is required). I realize I have musical ADD..I want to be singing along most of the time...and you probably in a big group wouldn't knnow whether I was or I wasn't as I have a pretty innocuous voice.So I am not a leader and not a performer but I am a participant. I think if I know the words I can sing along with anyone, chorus or verse, unless they specifically say otherwise, but I guess in some places that is frowned upon, like when I was in the Canada camp lately. But no offense..even very good singers doing those long Irish songs...that don't have a place for people to clunk their beer bottles on the table... are not something I have a great desire to hear more than one or two per evening. So my preference is loud and fast, or sweet and saccharine, and not much talking, much less huge long introductions..people can ask you privately later what your source is or you can say it in 20 words or less.

I guess I am there for a high amount of singing and a low amount of serving as an audience for people to sing their solos, rehearsed or not, even very good singers or not. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM

I think part of the problem, at least as I saw it in Seattle, was people coming new were given false information..even what time it started..they kept being told 7:30 when no critical mass was achieved until 8:30 or so.

Then they were told straight out, oh, anything is Ok. Well, it wasn't, but they weren't told. Just watch how the old-timers respond when the new ones wanted to sing "Today while the blossoms still cling to the vine." I think that is true test, that song. They would cringe, and pretend they didn't know it.

A kinder thing to do would be to say, this is what we tend to do, this is what we tend to like. But no one wants to say this and so everyone is uncomfortable. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:19 PM

mg-
Have you considered going to shanty sings and gospel sings? In these, there are lots of easy choruses and the songs are much more suited to a lot of people singing. General folk music only sometimes benefits from mass participation.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

Boil it up or strip it down. When I go to a book sing this is what I see.
People buried in books, not really looking at each other, there is no repoire between the participants, no back & forth. There's a lack of body movement to the music. There's the feeling that there's a class going on & an absent of belly laughter. There's not a lot of grinning from ear to ear though I have seen smiles cracking the surface. I've never seen an outside walk in by accident & stay & join, much less return, matter of fact towards the end it usually thins out quickly, like where did everybody go.

Now when I go to a free for all bookless session here's what I notice.
Feet & finger tapping, sometimes foot stomping & clapping (I don't like the clapping but sometimes folks get carried away. I see people whispering in ears & laughing or joking out loud. Some even teasing in jest the singer while they're singing & the singer breaking the song to respond in tune to the jest. I here joking & laughter. Hell not long ago I even saw a fight, that was a first & not a good thing either but you can't say it lacked passion. I've seen folks come in by accident & stay & join in & even return & become part of the group. I see people stay until the place closes down & carry it on out side cuz they're not yet done. I also notice people with their arms over the shoulders or around the waists of others, some with ears bent towards each other looking each other in the eyes & singing their own harmonies face to face. I see a friendship being built before the sings over & it gets built upon sing after after. I see strangers who've planned on coming come in & feel as if they've been part of the group for years after only spending hours with the group.

This is what I see as the difference between the 2 groups. Take whatever you want out of this but I know which group I'd rather be a part of & I know which group is enjoying themselves more & they're also getting back as much or more than/as they put into it.

Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

I do love the shanty sings...and maritime music in general. Gospel...for a while...I also like smaller groups very much. I guess I am just not into many solos, good or bad, but I prefer good. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Mark Ross
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM

I have no objection to RUS per se(I have a copy around here somewhere)but the final straw for me was I when I happened into a music store in Portland OR last year and found a song circle about to start. I was invited to join in, and I did so. But when someone said let's do SPANISH IS A LOVING TONGUE, and I volunteered that that song was in my songbag, I proceeded to sing it with others joining in. When the song was finished, the person who had called for that song,loudly announced that my version was too different from the version in his blue backed bible. Like I said, I have no objection to the book as a reference, but to insist that it's carved in stone, that is where I draw the line!


Mark Ross

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:45 PM

Mg, if you ever come to the Northeast, you'll have to visit the Shanty sing in Gloucester, Mass. You'll love the way the floor starts to roll as the songs start to get sung.

Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:10 PM

Yep, Mark, if you read my earlier post you will see I had the same problem. I have even had them sing over the top of the version I was singing, trying to superimpose their own version. The opposite of that kind of rudeness is singing for one of my favorite groups of folkies, the FSGW. When I have done mini concerts with them, they always listen first for where I am taking the song, then they chime in and always in the right spot. Some of the most amazing harmonies, I just love it. They let me do the song, and sing in the right places as opposed to trying to control what I am doing.

Mick

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:38 PM

There is one point upon which I would not totally agree with Mary (mg).

I like to hear her sing solo. She has a very nice voice for solo singing, and she knows a lot of really great songs. And she can slip into the background and sing softly when she wants.

####

"Manufactured groups." Yes, I can see how a group that meets regularly in a church basement, a rented meeting room, or in someone's home once or twice a month and has a set of explicit rules about who sings when and what they can sing (and what they can sing from) can be considered a "manufactured group."

But I don't see that this applies to a group of friends (usually including friends of friends, and occasionally neighbors) who get together often, but on an irregular basis, usually initiated by a telephone call (or these days, an e-mail), and almost invariably gathers in someone's living room or rec room. The only rules or structure that applies are those of common courtesy, which includes the idea that if I've sung three songs in a row, it's time for me to shut up and give someone else a chance.

Singing at "hoots" was how I first broke in, as did a whole bunch of other singers that I know. And this is not ancient history. These gatherings have been going on for as long as I can remember, and they're still going on. They include group singing: chorus songs, sea chanteys, and such. Duets, trios, solo singing, what have you. Plenty of opportunity for someone who likes group singing—unless that's all that this someone wants to do.

And for any newbie who might have any ambitions of becoming a performer (coffeehouses, concerts, gigs in general)—and I know that in the minds of some, a "true folk singer" is not supposed to have any ambitions along those lines (tell that to Jean Ritchie)—these get-togethers are a warm plunge. Plenty of encouragement and assistance if you want it. Mentoring? I got plenty of it from people like Walt when I first started singing.

Community feeling? Lots of community feeling. It just happens naturally.

As far as the occasional person using a song sheet or crib notes, that's no problem, unless the person is occupying everybody else's time by rehearsing in front of them. As Stilly says, ". . . learners . . . were expected to learn in a way that didn't impede the enjoyment of everyone else."

I've had the same kind of experiences that Barry talks about (many times—most times, and I've also had the kind of experience that Mark describes: being told that I'm "not singing it right" because that's not the version in the book.

("Well, maybe not in that book, but I'm singing the version I learned from Carl Sandburg's American Song Bag, so if you feel strongly about it, go duke it out with Carl!")

But if you want to get together with a bunch of other people and all sing together out of the same book, feel free. The Constitution guarantees your right to Freedom of Assembly. When I attend your group, I will abide by its rules if you will honor the customs and practices of the ones I like to attend, should you care to attend any.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

When I attend your group, I will abide by its rules if you will honor the customs and practices of the ones I like to attend, should you care to attend any.

Good point Don...the problem is that people often, generally, usually??? are not told what the rules are, or the customs..and as people drift away because of this the problem increases until, as others have said, a new group has formed...but there needs to be a way to serve both groups...I think two separate types of events..

And at camps..same thing. Have RUS be the default if you want. If those of us who want a separate experience want..we should say I will be in this room at this time doing this type of singing. Please join us if that is your preference. I always say we do not take turns and we do not sing under kleig lights and we don't do much talking. That eliminates most people often.. another group in BC likes to sing the long solo ballads.. I might join them for 15 minutes but my attention span usually fails me around then.

If there is a group with the books and with the flourescent lights, I have an attention span of 3 songs max. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stewart
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:56 PM

I've been studiously trying to avoid any further posts to this thread, hoping it would mercifully fall off the bottom of the page. But that doesn't seem to be happening, so I'll add my bit.

I can see definite parallels with songs circles and Irish tune sessions.

At one end of the spectrum, there are elite Irish sessions where you practically have to audition to be able to even sit in the sacred circle. Or it's by invitation only. The high-level players want to play at their high level and don't want anyone to muck it up. Semi-elite sessions might allow you to sit in the circle, perhaps even play softly, but never be expected or allowed to lead a tune. They just want to be able to play at the highest level, and don't seem to be concerned about bringing any less experienced plays up to that level.

At the other end are strictly beginner sessions where everyone sits in front of a music stand and very slowly plays note for note off the music. There's no life to the music, it's simply just notes, and no one progresses beyond that stage. That may be enjoyable to some, but I would think they would eventually get tired of it.

Then there's the intermediate level sessions - some good and some bad. Sometimes a new want-to-be player has to be told politely or not-politely to sit and listen until they learn how to play the music (the right rhythm, speed, etc.), or even leave if they are really annoying the other players. Some sessions may play too fast for your taste, or too slow. Some are very welcoming to new plays, others may not be. So you have to choose the session that best fits your needs and desires. And if you can't find such as session, then start your own. It's traditional music, and there's no ONE right way to play it, although there may be many bad ways.

There's a lot of session etiquette and unwritten rules that you just have to learn by observing and using some common sense. A few times I've been blown away trying to lead a particular version of a tune when someone else pays no attention to the tune I've started and loudly plays his/her own version or ramps up the speed. One has to learn that the person who starts the tune has the right to choose the version and speed of the tune, and others should first listen and follow that lead. Good session players pay close attention to all the other players, particularly to the one who's leading the tune. A wink of the eye, a nod of the head, or a lifted foot will signal when a tune will end or new tune will begin.

Tune session players can get into the same arguments (even worse!) as we've gotten into here about song sessions or circles. I think we all have to be more accepting of others, and if the session we're in doesn't suit us, find one that does, or start our own session. All sessions, tune or song, should involve learning and growing in the music.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:47 PM

Barry, Mary, and Don: The horse is still dead. If you want, I'll start an OBIT thread.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:56 PM

Thud.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:16 PM

Have at it, M.Ted. If you can get the corpse to lay still.

Did you hear the one about the riot at the funeral of Roland Lawrence LaPrise, the man who invented the Hokey-Pokey? When they put him into the casket, they tried to "put his left foot in," and that's when the trouble started. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: mg
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:22 PM

Not dead until my fingers quit typing. I still have lots more to say on the subject..mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:15 PM

This thread is like a Jersey diner breakfast - it keeps repeating.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:42 PM

I really appreciate what Mick said about the FSGW. It tell me we are still doing ok. The Getaway gets a larger % of serious singers who DO 'know' a lot of songs, and the results are great. It is not the case that books are excluded...they are just not as common.

Now...I have watched Mick, himself, several times with not only the words, but a music stand! He does this *when* he needs to be sure...not for everything... and my rule applies - if I close my eyes, I can't tell!

(To be totally honest, 'some' songs need an intro saying "please note- I am doing a slightly different version than you all think you know." I sing "Bright Morning Stars" in simpler version than the one with the warbling up & down melody that has been common the last xx number of years. [I learned it from a National Geographic LP recorded (I think)in Mountainview, Ark.] I just prefer the power of the 'simple' melody...but I have to be firm... *grin*)

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:44 PM

And apparently will continue repeating until certain people take their medicine.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:19 PM

I don't think there is a cure for passion! Deep down, I think everyone is very passionate about this music and people often forget that their opinion is not shared by everyone - nor is their portion of the world a reflection on what is happening elsewhere.   IF you sort through the posts, I think most people actually agree - and the problems that are painted are probably very rare occurances in actual practice, or at least not as widespread or shared by others.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: CamiSu
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:55 PM

So this has been sitting open on my desk for several days, (I REALLY have a hard time with too much to do) but I do appreciate RUS for starting a process in my family--particularly my youngest, who has graduated from finding words in RUS to the digitrad. (at 13 or 14?) He messaged home from a trip with friends to ask for a line from Barrett's Privateers. I did not get the message in time so when he and another person on the trip sang it, he made up a line, and no one knew any better, and they all loved it (and some even joined in on the chorus) No, it's not the be all, but it gets things started sometimes.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Janie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 12:05 AM

I agree, Ron. Reading many of the posts made by Barry, Mick, Bill and Ron, it sounds as if they they would just a soon shoot some one as see them read lyrics from RUS or anything else. But I have had the privilege, at Getaways, to participate in song circles with all of them, and they have all, especially Barry, been very encouraging and empowering. In fact, it was at my first Getaway, 5 or 7 years ago, that I rediscovered my voice after nearly 20 years of doing no music, and overcame much of my anxiety about singing in front of others. These lovely people have witnessed me muff songs badly when I didn't have the lyrics in front of me, and complimented and encouraged me after I have have shared a song with the lyrics in front of me - sometimes from RUS. (The only time I ever sang at the Saturday night concert without lyrics in front of me, I forgot the last verse - and it was a song I wrote!)

I am speaking as some one without much experience participating in song circles except for the Getaway. Inspired by the Getaway, I facilitated a song circle for 6 or 7 months a few years ago, and was surprised at how much work it was, and disappointed in the results. In many ways, the area where I live (Durham/Chapel Hill area of NC) is a musical Mecca, but there is not a tradition of informal sing arounds or song circles. I was hoping to start something akin to the song circles at the Getaway, but since there was not a tradition here, I was very reluctant (as well as very inexperienced at such endeavors) to exert any leadership beyond sending out the monthly e-mail reminder and being there to unlock the door. Concerned about having enough participants I was afraid to voice expectations that might result in people not coming. Over time, it wasn't very successful, largely because it wasn't clearly enough defined.   Some people viewed it as a group sing rather than a sing around. Some people mostly were interested in show tunes.   When it was lovely, it was very lovely, but it fizzled because the lack of clear direction and focus, as well as divergent but unspoken expectations made it an unsatisfying experience for all of us. A song circle can not be all things to all people and be successful.

I don't know if I will try again at some point in the future to start another song circle. But if I do, I'll follow mg's advice from the git-go, and make explicit what my own expectations and desires are.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 12:16 AM

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:14 PM

"I don't think there is a cure for passion! "
Well, for one instance, go to a session where thirteen people, each with his/her nose stuck in a copy or RUS, are dutifully singing "On Top of Old Smoky" in dubious unison. I dare you to find any passion there.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:30 PM

Janie said, "Reading many of the posts made by Barry, Mick, Bill and Ron, it sounds as if they they would just a soon shoot some one as see them read lyrics from RUS or anything else."

Don't forget Don Firth and Mary Garvey, and you've got it right. Fine, talented people, I have always thought--but this need to bash others make me wonder what they're really about.

I wouldn't mind so much if you were all just taking shots at me (I'd kind of get a kick out of it, actually) but the folks who sing from the book are the ones who are new, who just want to participate. Before the advent of the book, they pretty much sat and looked on while you all had the fun.

Sounds like you liked it better before.

(except for Barry and the shanties, but not everyone likes shanties)

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

Dick - tell me that it doesn't requier passion to get 13 people together in a room to sing "On Top of Old Smokey".   I dare you NOT to find passion, whether their noses are in books or up some body cavity - it takes passion.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM

"...but this need to bash others make me wonder what they're really about." ???

am I 'bashing' anyone? I explain a preference and my reasoning.

(and Janie... what did I say that even 'hints' that I sound like I'd "...just a soon shoot some one as see them read lyrics ..."? (remember...I often close my eyes!)

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:18 PM

Fine, talented people, I have always thought--but this need to bash others make me wonder what they're really about.
MTed

Since you included me, I must ask where it was that I bashed anybody? I thought I gave a fairly concise view of my feelings on the subject and I don't recall any specific attacks on anyone.

I think the distinction for me is not whether you sing from notes, book, etc. As long as you know the song, have rehearsed it, and just need a memory jog, and as long as you can sing it in a way that doesn't make the song sound stiff (Bill's "close your eyes" rule) then that is fine. As I said previously, just don't impose your RUS version on me when I am singing the song. As a reference it is an OK source. As the last word on a song...... not even close.

Barry and Dick's point about the passion is well taken. I have been in those shanty sings that Barry refers to. There is absolutely no way you would have the same passion and fire as when all the parties are jumping in spontaneously on songs they know well.

But one more thing. This is really about paying attention to the protocols of the song circle you are joining in. If a large group of folks have allowed, and enjoy, use of RUS, they have a song circle where the rule is you use that version so everyone can join in..... then you are bound to that and should not bitch about it. That is just common courtesy. And if you see someone that clearly wants to sing, and just needs encouragement and the use of the book, give them encouragement and let them use the book. That, too, is just common courtesy. And if I choose to sing "The Rare Old Times" or "Hard Times", or another song in my own way, please extend the same courtesy and listen, don't try to correct me by singing it a different way.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:29 PM

I don't think I have bashed anyone. I have revealed, yet again, our little secret though..that we just quit attending those events. And if they are open the public, the public has lost a very wonderful thing, perhaps to be replaced by something socially good, but probably not musically all that...The goose the laid the golden egg has been killed. The social support remains, the music wandered off (more often than not). I have suggested forming separate groups, separate rooms in camps, etc. to accomodate both preference styles. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

"There is absolutely no way you would have the same passion and fire as when all the parties are jumping in spontaneously on songs they know well."

The key word is "SAME" passion. You can get pleasure of a nice juicy Kobe steak in a comfortable restaurant, and you can get pleasure out of a corndog on the beach. Nothing is the same, neither is wrong.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:48 PM

de gustibus non disputandum est

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:08 PM

Sorry Don, taste is subjective

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

oops... I meant to say "sorry Bill", not Don

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:13 PM

WHat I think we have said repeatedly is that we do not take pleasure in the steak or the corn dog or whichever it is we do not like. We do not like the music that comes from these sessions, people who are OK with the sessions do not like the lack of fairness or chance to take a turn or chance to know what the words are. There is not pleasure in either. One way or the other someone is displeased. The answer and the only answer I see is to set up separate groups to accomodate both. mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM

Good luck with that Mary. You have your opinions and you are welcome to them.

To everything there is a season

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

I pasted a quote, and didn't want to be accused of distortion by editing, but I wasn't quite fair, either, Mick had a valid point, sorry Mick. BillD is never mean, sorry Bill.

For the others, it seems like this quote from Mary Garvey tells it all:

" I have revealed, yet again, our little secret though..that we just quit attending those events. The goose the laid the golden egg has been killed."

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:40 PM

Since M.Ted chooses to single me out by name as one of those he is accusing of being "mean spirited" and of having "a need to bash others," I hereby register my protest! He is obviously not reading my posts very carefully.

I'n not bashing anyone, nor do I have any need to. I expressed my preferences in the kind of song sessions I like to go to, and several times have said that those who prefer their group singing reading out of a book are certainly free to do so. And for this, he feels it necessary to bash me.

Not only that, he has seen fit to PM me and ask my to stop posting to this thread.

Maybe you need to take a few deep breaths, M.Ted.

Obviously this thread has passed its "sell by" date and has gone a bit rotten. It's degenerated into less of an exchange of ideas and more of simply shooting spit balls.

I've expressed my preferences and said everything I care to say on this subject, so unless my name comes up again, I'm out of here.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:56 PM

I fail to see what is mean. People are going to be deprived of public events that they would have enjoyed. It is probably too late to prevent it from happening, but perhaps there is a folk club somewhere that could be proactive about some of this. Yes, people can meet in private, but new people are not going to know how to connect. Others who are more in the background might not get invited to private events. Rather than trying to exclude people, I am trying to preserve places that meet with public notice for them to be included, along with places similarlly set up for those with different preferences and goals. But I think the gap in preferences is so big it probably can't be bridged in the same groups. Ergo, separate groups. People can choose which they prefer.

Also, please do not use my name. Use my initials. Thank you. mg