BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:16 PM

Garrison Keillor did a Prairie Home Companion show in Ireland about ten years ago and made a light comment to the audience about the Viking 'gift' of red hair to the Irish. He got a distinctly stony response.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:42 PM

There's a notion that the Neanderthals were finally knocked on the head by the Campanian Ignimbrite eruption 39000 years ago. The source of that super-eruption was what is now the Campi Flegrei caldera, the Fiery Fields, just west of Naples (not Vesuvius, which is on the other side). Don't bank on it never going off on one again. San Gennaro, the patron saint of Napoli, was beheaded in the Solfatara crater there in the fourth century. His bones are gruesomely displayed in an urn in Naples Cathedral. I have it on good authority that Putin was responsible. I got the worst mosquito bite I've ever had in my life in La Solfatara in September 2013. Still got the scar on me leg. But I'd go again any day. The Bay of Naples to me is the alpha and omega, the beginning and end of everything that matters.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:40 PM

Watching the continuing Salisbury clean up on the news tonight,
and noticing pigeons milling around the feet of the bio suit enclosed emergency services...

Wot about dead pigeons then, nothing on the news about them....
you'd think the feathery little shitbags would be on their backs legs up in the air
all around that bench....

Pigeons got natural immunity to Russian nerve agents then...?????????????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 12:47 PM

Steve,
What absolute nonsense. Enough direct accusation has been made against Russia from on high by the great and the good to make any "fair trial" against Russia completely impossible.

You can not put a country in the dock, silly.
In the Alexander Litvinenko case, the agent accused of administering the poison would have been tried if we could have extradited him.

Russia was openly accused in that case as in this.
As I said, the details of the investigation were not released as the evidence was found. That never happens.
Do you really believe that no evidence has yet been find by either police or security services, or that the scientists know nothing but the general type of nerve agent?
How naive!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 12:57 PM

Dave,
"Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt."

Yes. They just say highly probable and no plausible alternative.
Absolute proof is rarely possible and not required for a conviction.
Just "beyond reasonable doubt."
That is clearly the situation here because guilt is assumed by all those who have the evidence.

Why do you dismiss the assessment of every EU government and your own party?
What have you got that they are all missing?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 01:11 PM

Kerith - if folks in authority you don't trust demand you believe all they say, what would be your gut response...???

.. so I'll opt for cautious scepticism...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 01:25 PM

It's the 21st century, of world wide social networks, and higher educated populations...
...the days of 'sir knows best, accept what sir says without question, and do what sir insists' are over..

.. and it's about effin time 'sir' realised this....


REALITY CHECK - of course 'sir' holds all the cards and pulls all the strings,
deperately clinging to power over all of us until the bitter end....

Though 'sir' obviously has a nice safe blast & nerve agent proofed bunker lined up for the chosen elite...

You won't be one of them Keith...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 01:27 PM

Now we play the human interest angle for all it is worth:

Three children had to be taken to hospital after a former Russian double agent, who was later poisoned with a nerve agent, gave them bread to feed ducks, according to a security source.

The three boys reportedly underwent check-ups, including a blood test, because authorities feared they may have been exposed to novichok.

The substance was used in the attack on 66-year-old Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia, 33, on March 4.

The children had apparently come into contact with Skripal at Riverside Park, in Salisbury, after he handed them the bread, with the youngest of the group also apparently eating some of it.

It is reported the ducks subsequently went quwackers.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 01:29 PM

"You can not put a country in the dock, silly."

And why do you think I put "fair trial" in speech marks, Keith? If I'm silly you're a big girl's blouse.

No, wait, there are no "ifs" about it. You ARE a big girl's blouse. And a sucker for believing everything that politicians on only your side of the fence say. And how come you are using legalistic terms such as "beyond reasonable doubt" which apply to jury trials against a country when you've just told us that it can't be put in the dock because it's a country? Go back to bed, get up again and try to get Sunday off to a proper start this time.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 02:26 PM

Better put in a link otherwise some might think I am making it up.


http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/25/children-hospitalised-poisoned-russian-spy-gave-bread-feed-ducks-7414979/
check the photos
Note 1: They are only clingfilming the top of the park bench.
Note 2: The protective gear they are wearing is of a lesser order of protection than the full NBC suits seen earlier in a fetching shade of yellow (with BA)
Note 3: IF analysis of the agent is several weeks away why the confidence in reducing the level of protection for operatives?

Perhaps such facts should not be highlighted but having played about in contaminated ground,with chemicals poisonous by inhalation, ingestion or skin contact, and with radioactive sources at various times, I take an interest in such facts.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 02:38 PM

The cinema world of fiction is so littered with movies depicting fake atomic/bio/chemical hazard disasters
used as cover ups by Govts to hide nefarious conspiracies,
that we must begin to wonder if real world intelligence agencies are looking to classic hollywood for inspiration...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 05:23 AM

Steve,
And a sucker for believing everything that politicians on only your side of the fence say.

Huh? Unusually, all politicians on every side of the fence are in agreement on this.
You would have to be a real conspiracy nut to believe they are all in on it!

And how come you are using legalistic terms such as "beyond reasonable doubt" which apply to jury trials against a country when you've just told us that it can't be put in the dock because it's a country?

I was talking about assessing guilt. Why should we set a higher bar than is required for jury criminal trials?

You people can believe in international nefarious conspiracies involving all EU governments, USA and even Public Health England to deceive us all, but I find your case laughable.

(BTW Steve, it appears I was right and you were wrong about Labour's hard left too.)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 05:46 AM

I agree. Putin is a criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 05:50 AM

"I was right and you were wrong about Labour's hard left too.)
"I'm the king of the castle" again Keith
"I was talking about assessing guilt."
Which you rejected outright when it came to paedophile Tory Ministers managed to destroy the evidence against them
Yo can't have it both ways Keith
They are either proved guilty or they are not
In both cases here - both the Russians and Heath and co are probably guilty of what the evidence at hand suggests   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 06:17 AM

What Labour hard left?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 06:43 AM

Jim,
paedophile Tory Ministers

None has ever been identified.
You resort to making shit up again!

Steve,
What Labour hard left?

This one.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/niamh-carroll/jeremy-corbyn_b_10703540.html

Corbyn has now said what I always said and you denied.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 06:56 AM

More disparate threads.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/936928/brexit-news-eu-exclude-uk-galileo-space-network-macron-france

Now the council will do your washing!

http://www.itv.com/news/2018-03-23/bench-where-skripal-pair-found-collapsed-removed-amid-spy-poison-probe/
I guess the fireman in the photo is expendable or are the white helmets directing the action?

https://news.sky.com/story/spy-poisoning-novichok-inventor-says-hundreds-could-be-at-risk-for-years-11287880

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 06:58 AM

"None has ever been identified. You resort to making shit up again!"
You are defending the indefensible again
There is far more actual evidence against the Paedos than there is against the Russians aganist whom there are only accusations
I have no intention of allowing you to reopen this again - I raised the case only as an example of your double standards - my point is made, so let's move on.
Russia is now accused of the attempted to assassinate two Ukranian politicians
"It's getting to ne a habit with them" as the song nearly said
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:32 AM

Well, Keith, Niamh Carroll clearly wasn't keeping up last year when Corbyn amazed the nation by robbing the feckless Theresa of her majority against all the odds and in the face of week after week of brainless personal attacks, including (as now, as ever) from dozens of disaffected ex-Blairites in addition to those from braying, complacent Tories. I note that one of them, head loser Liz Kendall, is one of those trying to whip up yet another firestorm against him. So much for the hard left bubble. Bloody big bubble if you ask me. What a load of nonsense. You wouldn't bet a large sum against him winning next time, would you?

Anyway, what hard left?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:35 AM

Ians, what firemen?
The contamination of the bench will by now have ben assessed and appropriate protection worn. Earlier they wore full protection because the level of risk was unknown.
I note that you do think Public Health England is part of the gobal conspiracy to deceive us over this. How funny!

Jim,
You are defending the indefensible again

I am not defending anyone.
I would never defend a paedo, but there are no Tory paedo ministers to defend anyway.
You always resort to changing the subject and making up shit when you lose an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:40 AM

Steve,


This one.
https://labourlist.org/2017/11/is-there-a-hard-left-purge-of-moderates-going-on-in-labour/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:40 AM

"I am not defending anyone."
Course you're not Keith - you are just sayinbg the guilty are innocent - different thing altogether (not)
"You always resort to changing the subject"
No I am not, but you seen happy to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:43 AM

Jim,
you are just sayinbg the guilty are innocent

Who am I sayinb are innocent?
I have not said that about anyone!
Are you dreaming or deranged?
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT JIM?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:47 AM

Only questions, Keith. A healthy party that's asking questions of itself. Pity your shambolic lot don't do it more often. .

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:15 AM

Bugger my long post did'nt... so one more time....

"Huh? Unusually, all politicians on every side of the fence are in agreement on this.
You would have to be a real conspiracy nut to believe they are all in on it!"

ok, I will immediately dispute all politicians - just because you say it, doesn't make it so...

and.. if you had read my opening post, I stated the specific intended purpose of this thread
is to have fun playfully exploring creative conspiracy theories which could be generated from this incident... the wackier the better...


You would have to be a real pedantic dullard who takes things far too literally to not enjoy toying with belief they are all in on it...!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:18 AM

btw.. Can we try not giving Keith opportunity to rake over past grievences, it's too boring to wade through...
especially on a Monday morning..

Do not goad the keith...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:18 AM

Move on Ketih - you've had your say for the rich and famous perves and got the thread closed in doing so
Address your double standards now added to by complaining about my drifting a thread then making an effort to continue doing so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:21 AM

good bloke Jim...

Keith ought be welcome in this thread as long as he stays concisely on topic...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:47 AM

Why do you dismiss the assessment of every EU government and your own party?

I have not dismissed anything. I am keeping an open mind.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:47 AM

https://e3.365dm.com/18/03/1096x616/skynews-salisbury-poisoning_4250208.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20180308150942

Perhaps I was wrong and it was merely a "meet and greet" for contagious yellow aliens that might spontaneously self ignite.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 08:55 AM

Or maybe the firemen have a misplaced belief in the efficacy of chequer tape as a barrier.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 09:02 AM

They look like those anglers who spend a fortune kitting thenmselves out with all the right tackle and protective outdoor gear,
then spend all their time uner a brolly-tent drinking tea and napping, never even catching a single tiddler...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:10 AM

Pfr,
ok, I will immediately dispute all politicians - just because you say it, doesn't make it so...

OK. Name one.

Jim,
you are just sayinbg the guilty are innocent

OK Jim.
If I have ever said that anyone was innocent of anything, quote me.
If you can't, you reveal yourself yet again as being nothing but a filty liar.

Dave,
I have not dismissed anything. I am keeping an open mind.

They say that there is no plausible alternative explanation other than Russia is guilty, and have acted accordingly.
Do you think their assessment wrong? Why?

Ians, the tape marks the limit of the warm zone. Outside no protection is required. The fire service is there to wash down contaminated people.
The people in yellow suits have come from the hot zone into the warm zone and are preparing to remove their suits. The bins are to receive them. The people in white suits are to assist them.
Standard procedure.
https://chemm.nlm.nih.gov/decontamination.htm

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:11 AM

And they keep putting their hands in little plastic boxes full of wriggling multicoloured maggots, then into a box of stale spam, then they eat their butties with the same unwashed hands, and what about when they need a wee, and they always look miserable and as though they'd like to kill you for walking past them. But at least they're keeping fit and enjoying themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:19 AM

"Pfr,
ok, I will immediately dispute all politicians - just because you say it, doesn't make it so...

OK. Name one."

NO... stop demanding we dance to your tune....

If you used to be a teacher and got away with setting kids heavy burdensome homework,
well we aint gonna put up with it here...

Hey teacher.. leave those kids alone....

Besides which, I only have so much time to waste on mudcat, and I have an idea to prepare for you which might take up most of it...
or not at all, if something more important crops up...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:23 AM

PFR,
OK. Name one."

NO... stop demanding we dance to your tune....

Then I repeat,
Unusually, all politicians on every side of the fence are in agreement on this.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:25 AM

PFR, if there are any, name one.
"just because you say it, doesn't make it so."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:29 AM

'alls' a bit dogmaticaly total innit Keith...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 11:40 AM

Do you think their assessment wrong? Why?

The second question presupposes that you know the answer to the first. I am not going to be drawn into that futile argument.

I have said on a number of occasions already that there is an obvious element of doubt in 'their assesment'. There is no point in me saying it again but, once more, if they were certain it would move from being very likely to being absolutely sure. The lack of alternative argument fails to conclusively prove anything.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:15 PM

Ians, the tape marks the limit of the warm zone. Outside no protection is required.
Nice try!
      How it works is source, then safe buffer zone securely marked, then safe zone outside. Also for any airborne pathogen or gas you need a wind sock so you know which way to evacuate. Played about in hydrogen sulphide environments often enough to know the procedures blindfold.( one good lung full and you get an instant lesson on how to sit on a cloud and twang a harp) The area cordoned off had differing levels of protection inside. The white suits have open cuffs neck,legs and arms.
Also if you were serious you would not have the people all mixed up together as shown and I would expect to see shower units for decontamination of the suits.
I am afraid either the photograph is poorly shot and the personnel improperly briefed or more likely it was staged by a halfwit.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:20 PM

It will be interesting to see if Maggie May moved from her limp-wristed "reckless" stance to taking up the suggestion that Britain should penalise the many hundreds of wealthy Russians with Russian Government connections, who have taken up residence in London   
It has been suggested that some of these are working for the Russian government as agents and information gatherers
Given the Government's rejection of the suggestion that they should do similar with Assad's representatives, I doubt it - interfering with big business interests seems a bridge too far
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:27 PM

Has our Govt explored the possibility that it might have been China...

Digging a dastardly yellow peril tunnel with a tiny enough exit hole to direct a spray of nerve agent,
that came out just under the park bench in Salisbury...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:54 PM

Dave,
if they were certain it would move from being very likely to being absolutely sure

May today in Parliament, "We are quite clear that Russia is responsible for this act."
No politician present expressed dissent, including Corbyn.

EU countries plus USA and Canada have expelled diplomats. That is never done on mere suspicion.

PFR,
'alls' a bit dogmaticaly total innit Keith...???

Yes, and I am right about it.

Nice try!

I linked to the procedure and I have had training, though more than 10 years ago.

. Also for any airborne pathogen or gas

It was not.

The area cordoned off had differing levels of protection inside.

Yes. The yellow suits are required for the hot zone, and are removed in the warm zone where less protection is required.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM

"No politician present expressed dissent, including Corbyn."

maintaing polite tactful silence is not and never has been the same as 'agreement'..
which I'd be sure you well know...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 12:59 PM

Missed one.
Ians,
The white suits have open cuffs neck,legs and arms.

No they do not. The cuffs are sealed by gloves, the legs tied off over boots, and the hood tied off over the respirator.
Military CBW suits seal in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:00 PM

maintaing polite tactful silence is not and never has been the same as 'agreement'..

Many spoke, including Corbyn who supported the government on its actions.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:14 PM

Didn't see that...
But i did catch another news item which I'd like to refer to in this thread,
but am mulling it over for 2nd thoughts in case of reigniting distracting old thread creep dust ups...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:15 PM

Something Corbyn did say.
"I recognise that anti-Semitism has surfaced within the Labour Party, and has too often been dismissed as simply a matter of a few bad apples.
"This has caused pain and hurt to Jewish members of our party and to the wider Jewish community in Britain."

Cheers Jezza.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:22 PM

Keith - ooh.. don't tempt me...
I've still got to decide if I can be bothered transferring audio off a BBC new's interview I chanced on recording today,
then uploading a link...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 01:37 PM

We are quite clear that Russia is responsible for this act.

Sounds definite to me. Let's watch them spin this now.