BS: Blair the hypocrite

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:10 PM

Miserable as always. How are you, GS?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:56 PM

Getting by friend getting by. Never imagined you as being miserable!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: 282RA
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 08:30 PM

>>OOh 282ra, my my you are upset, Can you not see that i am not defending my countries involvement in the war, but merely pointing out that as a country the U.K has no conflict with the country of Iran.... yes they dont like us, yes my country has a history of colonialism barbarity etc etc, but we are not at war with Iran,<<

Once again, open your damn eyes! Of course, you're at war with them. They wouldn't have taken those sailors hostage if they thought Britain was anyone they could or should trust. Britain is right alongaise America licking its butt so why should Iran trust them?

As for this amazingly specious argument that Britain wasn't in Iranian waters ask yourself how Britain would react if a Syria-Iran coalition invaded Scotland, threatened England and then started massing on the approaches of its territorial waters--even if they weren't in its territorial waters. I do not believe for a second that Britain would be stupid enough to ignore that or shrug and say they're in international waters so there's nothing you anyone can do about it. I don't believe that for a second. Britain would go out and do something to let Syria-Iran no that they are not going to tolerate this aggression and that they should go the fuck home where they belong. Iran may not be a beacon of righteousness and freedom but neither are we. In the end, we're just an aggressor nation threatening and bullying those that have oil under them. To hell with Britain. I can't even bring myself to respect them sinc they were stupid enough to assist this nutcase loon Bush. Just desserts, I call it.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282URA Wayne Kerr
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:10 PM

So you agree that they were in international waters?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: 282RA
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM

I don't know. How would I know? Someone here said they were and i say it makes no difference. Even if they were, so what? We're still in their area of the world and we're threatening them. Flat out, Iran has done absolutely nothing wrong. They've nothing I wouldn't do, they've done nothing Britain wouldn't do, nothing the US wouldn't under the same circumstances. In the end, we are the aggressor not them and the aggressor is always wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:30 AM

282r
I have to challenge you, Great Britain is not at War with Iran,,,,,, there has been no declaration of war on either side...that said, these HOSTAGES that have been taken are Not P.O.W,s.


Yes Iran hates us for many reasons, yes we are in theyre part of the world, yes, if the Iranians military were in the English channel, i would expect them to be picked up and questioned,,,,,,, but i wouldnt expect them to be paraded around like trophies, i would expect them to be released within 24 hours,,,, western military personell in Berlin were routinely picked up when in East Berlin or too near to the wall, and questioned by the East german authorities, they were never held longer than 24 hours, there are procedures in these circumstances that should be followed, I am sorry,but Iran is in the Wrong.

My argument isnt about how Britain came to be there, how prisoners are treated in Guantanimo, Abhu Grahib etc, or even what happened under the British Empire, its straight down the line.......they should not still be incarcerated by the Iranians..... The Iranians are showing themselves up for what they are 2nd rate military, run by 3rd rate government. Its nothing personal, if they were Dutch soldiers i would have the same argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:29 PM

>>282r
I have to challenge you, Great Britain is not at War with Iran,,,,,,<<

It would not appear that Iran agrees, does it?

>>there has been no declaration of war on either side...that said, these HOSTAGES that have been taken are Not P.O.W,s.<<

There was no declaration of war when Britain and the US invaded Iraq either and yet there we are and with our secret little prisons bursting with POWs.

>>Yes Iran hates us for many reasons, yes we are in theyre part of the world, yes, if the Iranians military were in the English channel, i would expect them to be picked up and questioned,,,,,,, but i wouldnt expect them to be paraded around like trophies, i would expect them to be released within 24 hours,,,, <<

At least by being paraded around you know they're alive and you know they're not being mistreated. The sad truth is, oh-so villainous Iran is treating those people far, far better than the US and Britain has treated Muslims and Arabs they've captured. Those sailors were even allowed to write home. How many captured Muslims were given that courtesy? While many captured Muslims have been returned to their families, a great many have not and their only crime was to be a male of recruitable age in an area thought to be high in ruitment.

>>western military personell in Berlin were routinely picked up when in East Berlin or too near to the wall, and questioned by the East german authorities, they were never held longer than 24 hours,<<

Did you invade Germany? No. Did you threaten Germany's neighbors? No. It's a totally different situation. If I were leader of Iran, it would be my duty to defend my nation and people from invasion or attack by outsiders. Iran was right to do what they did and if Britain doesn't like it, shut up and go home. Oh, and by the way, you're never going to get those people back as long as Bush keeps running his fat, fithy sewer. But, as usual, you dumb fucking Brits don't have the balls to tell him to shut up and so you deserve everything that's happening to you and I find it all highly amusing. No sympathy whatsoever. You don't deserve it. You're imperialists finally getting what you have coming. So cry me a river, I'll just go fishing in it.

>>there are procedures in these circumstances that should be followed, I am sorry,but Iran is in the Wrong.<<

Oh, like the time some British soldiers got themselves arrested by local Iraqis and the British army sent a tank over to knock the fucking down? That kind of respect of protocol and procedure? Sorry, but those sailors can stay in Iran and rot for all I care.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 01:07 PM

2A2RA - You forgot one:

Blindlemonsteve said: "The Iranians are showing themselves up for what they are 2nd rate military..."

Thats a laugh. Tell that to Iraq when Saddam (backed by the U.S.) decided to go to war with Iran. Tell that to the British soldiers who were abducted by Iranian soldiers in a couple of small boats when the Cornwall and a British helicopter were nearby.

Maybe you think they're second rate because they haven't invaded another country in recent history. Maybe its because they have only defended themselves against aggression. Maybe you think they're second rate because they don't have nuclear weapons.

Considering that Iran doesn't have nuclear weapons, I think Iran still has a military not to be messed with. For Iran to maintain control of their oil fields while surrounded by U.S./British forces on one side in Iraq, NATO forces in Afghanistan on the other, and Arabs all around, they're pretty amazing - never mind Russia bearing down on them in the past. I'd like to see Britain survive that kind of pressure on their country.

Its a good thing you're not in a position of power. By thinking that Iran has a 2nd rate military, you could get your country in alot of trouble. Anyone who thinks an invasion of Iran would be a piece of cake, should think again.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:01 PM

If i were in a position of power, we would never have been in Iraq in the first place. Seems i´m never going to get my point across, so i´m going to sit back and listen to you all chew the fat,Dianavan and 282r, thankyou for the last few days, its been thought provoking, i´ll catch up with you other threads, i´m sure we can cross swords again. i kind of get the feeling that were never going to agree on many things, but lets not let that get in the way of a good debate.....


Remember,,,, just because i dont agree with what you say, it doesnt mean i wouldnt fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

Cheers
see ya all soon

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:11 PM

"I'd like to see Britain survive that kind of pressure on their country."

If there's one thing Britain has shown, it is that it can withstand considerable pressure of the military type.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:03 PM

On their borders?

All alone?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:41 PM

Iran has a bigger population than Iraq, way more land area, much harsher terrain (if you can believe that), a bigger and much better organized military.

If we couldn't beat Iraq when we were at full strength, we are NOT going to beat Iran with a miltary this exhausted. And Iran knows it all too well. Britain won't make war on Iran because Britain apparently can't do anything without the US to hold its little hand and the US is not going to go to war with Iran because it can't.

Finally, Ahmadinejad was democratically elected and we cannot topple him and maintain the facade that we give a shit about spreading democracy in the Middle East.

Britain has no choice--apologize, get your people back and LEAVE! Go! Get out while the getting's good! Stop supporting US imperialism--we're crazy, we're nuts! Stay away from us, it's the best thing Britain can do for itself. For god's sake--LEAVE!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Maxine
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

I have read this debate with great interest. I don't pretend to know very much about Middle Eastern conflicts, however, I know that they are very real and obviously stir huge emotions amongst us all.

As an English woman, a mother of a son the same age as many of these sailors, I just want these young men brought home to their families safely. They are our young men and regardless of what people may feel about Bush/Blair, these men enlisted in the British military services because they felt it the right thing to do and we should be praying for their safe return because they are human beings, with families and have the same hopes and dreams for their lives that anyone would have.

Guest 282RA, how you can say you don't mind if these young men "stay in Iran and rot" is beyond me and I'm sure beyond most civilised, ordinary human beings. I've read your postings, you make very good points and yes, Brits are absolutely not blameless but I really think you should kerb some of your tasteless view points - and perhaps your language?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:18 PM

>>Guest 282RA, how you can say you don't mind if these young men "stay in Iran and rot" is beyond me and I'm sure beyond most civilised, ordinary human beings.<<

If Britain is going to assist the US in this mad scheme the run the world then Iran can keep them. I really don't care abou them. I was a sailor and I did time in the Middle East. It's something you have to take into account before you join. It's like being cop--don't become a cop and cry about being shot at by criminals. It comes with the territory. When you join the service, you join with the knoweldge that you are willing to carry out whatever your govt wants you to and that you might get killed or captured in the process and if you do--tough cookies. That's not me talking either--that is the military itself. These people knew the score when they joined and if they didn't they're stupid but at least they kow the score now. And, don't worry, they'll be released. I don't know when but they'll eventually come home.

>>I've read your postings, you make very good points and yes, Brits are absolutely not blameless but I really think you should kerb some of your tasteless view points - and perhaps your language?<<

I will do neither because I am pissed off. My America has turned into something I don't recognize. This new America has become the very type of nation I was taught as a boy to hate. And I do hate such nations and now I am forced to hate the one I live in and in which I defended and protected with my life for 6 years. Now, I wonder why I bothered. I didn't give 6 years of my life to defend THIS!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:01 PM

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is the guy who has the power to make policy in Iran, not Ahmadinejad. Please note that it is the 'Islamic Republic of Iran'. Please note that very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:03 PM

Yes, and he has said that if Iran is assaulted, they will strike back. What makes him so different, politically, than any other head of state? Don't most countries want to defend their territory?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:05 PM

He is a religious fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:01 AM

Do you feel that way about all religions or just his religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:30 AM

Blair wakes up and tells his wife;
"I just dreamed we won the war"
What war dear?
"It was, it was, oh nevermind, it was the Falklands"

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:32 AM

None of your fucking business, Dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 02:14 AM

"Iran

Respect for basic human rights in Iran, especially freedom of expression and opinion, deteriorated considerably in 2005. The government routinely uses torture and ill-treatment in detention, including prolonged solitary confinement, to punish dissidents. The judiciary, which is accountable to Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, has been at the center of many serious human rights violations. Abuses are perpetrated by what Iranians call "parallel institutions": paramilitary groups and plainclothes intelligence agents violently attack peaceful protesters, and intelligence services run illegal secret prisons and interrogation centers. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, elected in June 2005, appointed a cabinet dominated by former members of the intelligence and security forces, some of whom are allegedly implicated in the most serious human rights violations since the Islamic Republic of Iran was established twenty-six years ago, such as the assassination of dissident intellectuals."

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:21 AM

Into these hands have fallen fifteen young people who go out and fight for us for not very much money.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM

Into these hands have fallen fifteen young people who were not being aggressive towards Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:42 AM

Dianavan...you seem to 'come across' as being the 'expert' on the situation......what did the Iranians not want them to find on the cargo vessel please?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:06 AM

Smuggled cars? and I'm selling the Broklyn Bridge! I doubt that they wanted them to find anything, it's not klike anyone's sending out invitations. What were the Brits hoping to find? Smuggled cars?

Can anyone find references that says the Brits were mandated by the UN to patrol these waters in the 1st place, I can't & that seems to be an issue that's floating under the bridge & one that Russia's been questioning.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:11 PM

Barry,

The closest I could come is Resolution 1737. Here's a link to it. (Scroll down a bit.) Please see Article 7 on p.4 of the document.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:13 PM

However, that kinda makes the "we were looking for cars" statement a bit out to lunch.

The marines and sailors are being released and they'll leave Iran on Thursday (tomorrow).

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:21 PM

Being released without apology by anyone...just as a gift to Britain.... I was once given a jack-in-the-box...... I also had a 'Trojan Horse' on my comp...... A very nice gesture if done with no motive other than to improve relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:41 PM

Ain't that the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:23 PM

I certainly haven't seen anything that says Britain has a U.N. mandate to search merchant vessels for smuggled cars. Perhaps they thought the vessel was smuggling parts for nuclear reactors or weapons but that doesn't make sense either (unless the vessel was going to Iran). I thought it was very clear that the cars were on their way to Iraq. Besides that, we don't even know for sure what flag the merchant vessel was flying, where it came from or where it was bound.

The whole thing was very fishy and if the Brits can't explain it, no wonder Iran had their nose out of joint.

I'm glad the Brits were returned with only a little slap on the hand. I wish Bush would follow suit and return the Iranians or at least confirm their well-being. Who knows where they are and what has happened to that unfortunate lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:49 PM

Take a downer, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:10 PM

Eat shit, Dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:17 PM

It's still up in the air whether or not the Brits were over the line that doesn't exist. However, the Iranians pulled a beautiful PR move in the way they released the prisoners. It would be good if Bush released the Iranians he's holding in Iraq, but he's probably too slow on the uptake to clue in to that. Of course, it begs the question: What were those Iranians doing in Iraq? Does anyone know (no, not you, Ms. I don't need the party line.)

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 09:21 PM

>>What were those Iranians doing in Iraq?<<

The Iranians?? What the fuck are WE doing there??

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 09:37 PM

LOL

Too true. But I'd still like to know what THEY are doing there. Probably the same thing as the US. Looking for Saddam Hussein and WMDs.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 10:40 PM

"The Iraqi Foreign Ministry continues to push for the release of five Iranians detained during a U.S. military raid in January, Iraq's Deputy Foreign Minister Labid Abawi told CNN on Tuesday."

As we all know, there are two sides to every story so be sure to read why Iraqi, Kurd and Iranian stories differ from the U.S. story. It seems to center around whether the Iranians were diplomats and whether or not the meeting place was an embassy and/or consulate.

Apparently the Iranians were invited by the Kurds and the U.S. raided the place and arrested the wrong guys in a case of mistaken identities. Iraq is lobbying for their release.

Let me know when you have it figured out.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 11:42 PM

"Iranian officials have said that the men are diplomats. Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi foreign minister and a Kurd, said in a telephone interview on Tuesday that although the men being held were not officially diplomats, they had nevertheless been acting as liaisons between Iraq and Iran."

Lots of people are having difficulties 'getting it straight'.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:08 AM

So these two guys...hard men...meet in a pub and one feels the other is looking at him in the wrong way...get my drift?...so he flexes his muscles and approaches him. "Why are you looking at me like that"?
His hackles immediately raised, the other guy replies that he will look where he likes, at who he likes and when he likes. An exchange ensues with both flexing their muscles and prancing around aggressively until one says "I will back off now as a present to you"

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:31 AM

What I fail to understand is why the Iraqis have to lobby the U.S. for the release of Iranians captured in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: s&r
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 05:00 AM

Not much happening in BC then?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 05:58 AM

Dianavan just a quick note to a previous post...about Britain surviving Military pressure all alone.......1940......Britain stood alone in its fight against the Nazi threat, the soviets had cosied up to hitler and shared poland, France had fallen, the U.S was giving aid, this is true, but not arms, they were also getting ready to do business with a Nazi europe, whatever your thoughts are, you can not take away from the British people of that generation the fact that they suffered harshly, and stood together alone. and that standing, allowed for the opening of the western front a few years later.
Sorry, i wasnt going to get back into this thread, but i felt i had to on this point...
Bye for now

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 06:36 AM

"What I fail to understand is why the Iraqis have to lobby the U.S. for the release of Iranians captured in Iraq."

Iraq is now a US colony & no longer an occupied nation!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 11:39 PM

In regard to Blair's righteous indignation -

"Suddenly, it was a new day with Bush and Blair fully committed to international law. Even a relatively minor Geneva transgression, such as filming captives eating, became a justification for unrestrained outrage."

This is an excellent article. Well worth the read. Its about the U.S./Britain and their double standards.

...and I do think Iran did a good job of exposing the hypocricy of so-called "western values". They never said a thing about it, they just showed the world what the U.S. and Britain are all about. Anyone who still thinks the U.S. and Britain are somehow morally superior will have to re-think the way they treat their hostages compared to the way Iran treated theirs.

Iran definitely has the moral high road and this has not been lost on other countries, especially in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:06 AM

Dianavan..you are as easily if not more easily conned than the next person. Do you really believe all you have written on this thread in your 'stand alone' views? We are fed information from various sources and yours is only one....whose source is correct is a matter of conjecture but you are so obviously always right we cannot present an adequate argument against your fine words.
Not sure if it has been fed back to you yet but on UK TV, the picture being painted is of the 'Hostages' from our Navy/marines were mostly kept in solitary confinement....they were blindfolded and guns were cocked behind them..making them believe they were going to be shot...they had no other choice but to go along with the TV interviews and the supposed 'fun time' they were having which was being presented to the press. They knew they were in Iraqui waters not Iranian but under duresse had to admit to it and apologise on TV
Iran has certainly made a coup of some sort....with you anyway!!
Blair made all the right decisions! They paid off!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:28 AM

A lot of people weren't fooled by those pictures of the hostages enjoying themselves. They were also threatened with 7 years hard labour if they didn't confess.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 06:21 AM

How to treat innocent prisoners, read John McGuffin`s, Internment and The Guinea Pigs, both free on the Web, Britain found guilty twice by the European Court of Human Rights for, Inhuman and Degrading treatment of Irish detainees.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:12 AM

Iran is the country where(within living memory) they used to routinely rape children detainees because their religion didn't permit them to execute virgins.

It has one of the worse records, if not the worst record on human rights with Amnesty International, in the world. It defers to no international court or tribunal, so you won't find any judgements against it.

the idea of those buggers having the moral highground of anywhere outside of Auswitchz would be laughable, if it were slightest bit funny.

The Iranians are one of the most cultured and civilised people in the world, bu they have a really shit government. Originally eased into power by the US in the 70's.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: guitar
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:22 AM

really!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 09:25 AM

Really what....?

you'd have to poke about the Amnesty website to see if its still the case. the allegations were certainly around a long time.

as for the US involvement - all I can say is that it seemed that way at the time.

When the Shah was in power there was general chorus of disapproval from most left tingers in England.He had a secret police and they used torture. Private Eye called him The Shit of Iran.,

However he wanted a westernised country. There was a sharp intake of breath when he appeared on Panorama and he pointed out his country had a popul;ation size not to different from England and his aim was that they should be similar sorts of countries.

To this end English public schools and Technical Colleges and Universities had loads of Iranian students getting 'westernised' as best they could.


The shah was deposed - he always claimed it was because England and America had withdrawn military and economic support due to pressure from ill informed left wingers.

Somehow it became known that when Khomeini returned, things would kick off bigtime. there would be an Islamic revolution such as the world had never seen before. However Khomeini was in Paris, where he had lived in exile - under surveillance and something of an unknown quantity. Would he allowed to back and initiate a new dark age?

the decision to seemed devolve upon the shoulder of the then British Foreign Secretatry, David Owen and his American opposite number (Andy Young....I think). Owen and Young were good mates - they weny ogging in Hyde Park together followed by some sort of perfuctory conference and Khomeini (described somewhere as holy man -some kind of saint) was set loose.


There was a feeling not long after that Owen had fucked up bigtime on this issue.

That was a worms eye view of what happened. I may have it all wrong, but thats how it seemed.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: s&r
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 12:59 PM

100