BS: Blair the hypocrite

Subject: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 02:22 PM

This lastest hostage incident has, for the first time, made me look seriously at Tony Blair. Previous to this, I thought of him only as a "lapdog" for Bush. What a dispicable, blundering idiot he is!

I watch him complaining about the treatment of the British hostages and claiming that he is disgusted, but what does he think has been going on with outsourcing and the torture of prisoners captured by the U.S. and Britain? The videos and photos from Abu Grahib make the British hostages look like they're on a picnic. Compare that to the countless number of images of the imprisoned, tortured and dead that Britain has somehow justified. Where is outrage at U.S. actions?

I am sure the hostages are terrified, but they have not been photgraphed in sexual positions, or squatting in a hole like Saddam, or on their knees in orange jumpsuits and show no signs of being battered or tortured.

I have seen plenty of examples of people hiding behind self-righteous indignation but Tony Blair takes the cake. He looks more foolish everytime I see his act of moral outrage. He's as bad or worse than Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 03:53 PM

I'll offer no argument against, dianavan.
I watched the "Queen" the other day, which is based on the time soon after he entered office, and I thought: What would he think now, watching "himself" as it were, in happier times, full of hope and promises, when his stock was running high... And look at him now. Not that I feel sorry for him, he earned his downfall, but I almost blushed on his behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 03:54 PM

well i think he's quite nice - but then I've been drinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 04:58 PM

Dianavan, like yourself, i am no fan of Mr Blair, but i think you need to rethink your line in the hostage crisis, yes, there has been unfortunate mishappenings with individual behaviour in abhu Grahib. but, and this is the point, i am not aware of any conflict between the U.K and Iran. of all the unfortunate footage and pictures seen, i am not aware of any of them being of Iranian military personell. and you are right, Guantanamo bay is obviously no picnic, but i am not aware of any iranian military personell there either. this is a crisis between 2 bonafide military factors. this being the case, it is fair that the M.O.D and the British Government expect Iran to behave in a proffesional manner, not parade captured sailors and Marines to read manufactured transcripts to a tv camera. If it were Al Quaida who had kidnapped these people, then i would expect this kind of behaviour, but not from an apparently civilised country like Iran. I cant imagine that if the boot was on the other foot, Iranian soldiers/ sailors etc would have to read from manuscripts denouncing theyre government. Just my thoughts, but if Iran wants to step up to the line and show its military as unproffesional and amateurish, then lets hope that they never do get those nuclear weapons they are after. And, as i said before, i bet the M.O.D dont get the GPS equipment back.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM

Dianavan, you show yourself up.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 07:10 PM

I would say that what the POWs were saying on TV was sign enough of them having been, well, coerced. I can't imagine the flower of the Royal fleet, and don't get me wrong, I have great admiration for those individuals' keeping it out of the shootin' war stage, so I mean that as a true compliment - I'd be proud as all getout of them if they were mine - anyway, I just can't see them saying those things willingly.
Anyone checked for eyeblink frequency, or is that too old-school? Aren't there prearranged signals for I'm OK/I'm not OK, anyway? I would assume the brass knows full well how they are being treated.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 12:14 AM

Of course the confessions are bogus. I doubt if Iran thinks that Westerners believe any of it. I do believe that the Iranian people are probably eating it up (especially the sinful, cigarette smoking woman). Its called propaganda.

Blindlemonsteve - If the shoe was on the other foot, do you think Britain or the U.S. would refrain from humiliating their captives? They do more than humiliate. They out-source torture to gain their 'confessions'. We have seen enough of what they have done to hostages to know that Blair is far from righteous. Who does he think he is fooling? He is a bad actor. Period. Nobody is holding a gun to his head so whats his excuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 12:47 AM

dianavan
You are 100% correct!

Do you think that the US would put up photo's of the detainees (not POW'S) at Guantanamo or abhu Grahib in the condition that we put them in. NOT. If they had we wouldn't had to have suffered the embrassment of what we did to them in the first place, they would've been exposed right from day one. Tony has brass balls to get huffy about this, the sniffling shit, his sailors look to be in fine shape & he should be happy that it's appearant that they are and not looking like the captaives of the US/UK. If I were one of the relitives I'd be tickled to see & know that they were in good shape, better shape than they would be if captive of their own. And who'd care about them admitting to any wrong doing. It certinally won't be held against them, not that anyone will believe that it was done of their free will. Pretty stupid to have had them do that anyway, IMO.

Tony needs to take a chill pill, better yet maybe he should offer himself up for their return, though it wouldn't be much of a sacrifice, maybe Bush & Blair would do the trick. No the 15 sailors are worth far more that those two.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:55 AM

Everyone seems to be missing the point here, there is no conflict between Iran and The United Kingdom, so why are we bleeting on about the way a few bad apples have treated prisoners in Abhu Grahib, this has absolutely nothing to do with Iran. it is fair to compare the way that the Al Quaida cells look after theyre detainees, and as bad as a few immoral pictures are concerned, or having to wear orange overalls 24/7 i would prefer this to having my head hacked off in the name of Alla.
as stated before, this is an argument between 2 military factors, it has nothing to do with Guantanamo, Abhu Grahib, Al Quaida etc etc. the iranian military are showing themselves up to be 2nd rate, amateurish and embarrassing for the Iranian people. I dont know what the state of play at the moment is, but i suspect they had better be thinking of releasing them very soon. As they will find out exactly how professional certain departments of the British Army are. I think a more fair comparison of how our troops behave in this sort of manner would be to look at how the Iraqi "Soldiers" not terrorist suspects. were treated as the invasion began. or in 1991, when the Iraqis were surrendering in theyre thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:08 AM

Blindlemonsteve - It is you who are missing the point.

How does the U.S. and Britain treat hostages compared to how Iran is treating these hostages?

Its a matter of human decency.

I'd say they look to be in fine shape and thats exactly what Iran wants us to see. It shows the world that Iran is not as inhumane as the western invaders. Its the best PR they've had in ages!

Blair looks like he's out of control. What a sniveling whimp!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:47 AM

"Its the best PR they've (The Iranian Government) had in ages!"

Only with regard to domestic consumption - internationally its a disaster for Iran, already partially isolated over their flagrant disregard for the terms and conditions of an international treaty that they willingly signed and agreed to abide by, this latest escapade has managed to further tip the balance of world opinion against them.

"Blair looks like he's out of control. What a sniveling whimp!"

I would say that in all appearances made so far Tony Blair and the British Government representatives have shown remarkable restraint. Compare their words and body language to what is coming out of Tehran, which has mostly been all threat and bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:58 AM

Has it ever occurred to you, teribus, that there is nothing stopping Iran from backing out of the treaty? In fact, it has been said that this hostage incident is just a front so that they can back out quietly while everyone is focussed on the hostages.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:03 AM

A politician a hypocrite?
Surely not!
Gosh I am surprised.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,Barry (where's my cookie gone)
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:12 AM

"there is no conflict between Iran and The United Kingdom"

Then what do you call this?
They are part of the heart & soul of the MidEast, you are thinking as a westerner.

T, world opinion is not that big of a concern to them, mid east opinion is far more important though. If they come out of this, say with as little as a fixed & final border they'll be coming out smelling like roses. If it backfires, well thats a different story.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:05 AM

"How does the U.S. and Britain treat hostages compared to how Iran is treating these hostages?"


The U.K and the U.S do not take hostages, they are holding terrorist suspects, for one purpose and one purpose only, to try to reduce the terrorist threat in the future, i myself find this whole episode unpalletable, in our democratic societies, a man can be held indefinitely without trial. you are right, this is wrong, but, they are not hostages, also, they are not members of any bonafide military organisation, do you really think the U.S and the U.K would hold Iranian soldiers in the same manner as the Iranians have, i think not, even if we were at war with Iran.

We are not at war with Iran,,,,, yes they are part of the middle east, yes there are problems with our relationship,,, but we are not at war with them, they have no business holding those sailors and marines,other than a brief questioning about what they were doing, even though they were 1.7.nautical miles inside Iraqi waters. And you can bet your bottom dollar the GPS equipment will confirm this, thats why they wont get it back.
They have no business parading them like they are P.O.W´s they are not.

For the most part, the U:S and the U.K forces in Iraq are doing an excellent job, in very hard circumstances, there are always a few bad apples in a barrel. This line about how Iraqi prisoners have been abused etc etc, has been blown out of all proportion. These incidents were not tolerated by the higher command of the perpetrators, and they have been where possible bought to justice.

Dont let a few idiots allow your judgement to become clouded,99.9% of our troops are acting in Iraq, with the greatest integrity, they are professional soldiers, not press ganged bandits like the Iranians seem to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:11 AM

It has already backfired on Iran. Their equivocation about the release of Faye Turney has hurt then not only with the international community--and although some might say Iran cares only for the good-will of its Middle East neighbours, they cannot really afford to be isolationist--but also with its own people, many of whom have said that it was wrong.

There seems to be a three-way power struggle IN Iran: Revolutionary Guard, clerics and Ahmadinejad. Ahmadinejad has been criticized lately for his trips abroad, and Iran's weakening economy--not due really to lack of money, but due to poor administration OF that money--has caused a growing unrest amongst the Iranian people. I guess ya can't spend all that money on nuclear production, have nothing to show for it, and be able to tell Iranians that you're doing something good for them. Tough tightrope to walk.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:49 AM

Dianavan theoretically there is nothing whatsoever to stop Iran backing out of the nuclear NPT. There exists clearly laid out procedures detailing exactly how that could be accomplished. Unfortunately for Iran however, while there are detailed steps for them to follow, there are also detailed steps for others to follow, which if complied with would stop Iran's nuclear ambitions in their tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 06:31 AM

I believe given the circumstances of the 'hostage taking' which was most certainly unnecessary and provocative, that Tony Blair and the Government advisors, have taken the only route so far that would be sensible. However, I am prepared to listen to what DIANAVAN would do under exactly the same circumstances which would not cause dissent somewhere along the line.
Over to you Dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:11 AM

are you called that, because your name's Diana and you've got a van?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:31 AM

BTW, DV, show me a prisoner, any prisoner, in the UK (you deal with the USA, the UK never agreed to the US holding UK people in the USA's torture camp in Guantanamo Bay) being tortured so sign false confessions and paraded on TV.

It gets clearer by the minute that the UK personnel were not in Iranian water, and that the Iranians were on an illegal snatch mission. There was a nutty professor of "political geography" (funny, I didn't know mountains could vote) from Tehran the other night who said that the first location the Iranians gave (the one that put the UK personnel nearly 2 miles outside Iranian waters) was at the margin of error in one direction and the later one that put them 2 miles inside Iranian waters (after the Iranians changed thier mind) was at the other margin.

A 4 mile margin of error on Sat-nav positioning? I don't think so.

And ask yourself where the Iranian pictures of the moments so soon after the seizure came from. Do the Iranian military intercept boats carry TV cameras? Er- perhaps this was a staged stunt by the Iranians...

I have agreed with you about the plight of the oppressed in the past, but this particular episode has only one right and only one wrong side.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:03 AM

Well yeh Richard - all fair points. But you've got to admit Blair is a shifty customer. You can't be too sure of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:25 PM

Blindlemonsteve - "there is no conflict between Iran and The United Kingdom"

That is a joke. The Iranians practically have a tradition of hating Britain. They have had years and years to blame the Brits (whether it is justified or not) for just about anything and they do. Ask an Iranian. They despise Britain. They actually like the U.S. more than Britain. Britain is the age old enemy.

Regarding the treatment of hostages: Has Blair ever condemned the U.S. for the outsourcing and torture of hostages? Whether or not they are soldiers or 'terrorists' make no difference. Human rights are human rights.

What would I do?

Apologize to Iran for confusion over territorial boundaries and request a meeting to clearly establish the boundaries so that it wouldn't happen again. The hostages would then be returned.

weelittledrummer - Are you a drummer with a weelittle one?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:43 PM

Read this and you may understand the basis of the antipathy towards Britain and the USA in Iran. Once again we were meddling in the affairs of another country instead of running our own properly.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM

No it weelittle drummer is a reference to song called Arthur McBride - made listenable by the genius of Paul Brady.

Went to school and college with a lot of kids from Iran - I can assure you. You've got that one wrong. They were really into the English thing - cricket, football, groovy fashions. They're actually a very nice people. Polite, civilised, fun.....

Don't believe all the crap you read.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:34 PM

Dianavan...you state "What would I do?

Apologize to Iran for confusion over territorial boundaries and request a meeting to clearly establish the boundaries so that it wouldn't happen again. The hostages would then be returned".

Do you not think it simplistic that "an apology" would suffice when the boundary firstly was not crossed and those personnel were taken hostage! There is a hidden agenda here and all will surely be revealed at some jucture.
Clearly established boundaries are already there and Iran broke them to take the hostages.....what would the US do? what Dianavan would you do in reality if your rights were infringed upon. You are talking as if Iran are in the right!!! do you know something we all apparently don't?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:55 PM

Georgiansilver - Quite the contrary. You are talking like the Brits are innocent victims.

In fact, the boundaries are not clearly established and have been disputed and changed many times. Why were the Brits poking at a hornets nest when they knew that Iran was on edge? As far as rights go, Maybe this boundary dispute should be settled by Iraq and Iran. Its certainly not Britain's decision to establish the boundaries between these two countries. If there was a boundary dispute between Canada and the U.S., do you think we would let Britain determine who was right? No, we would settle it ourselves.

And yes, I think it is absolutely acceptable to apologize for confusion regarding territorial boundaries at sea under these unusual circumstances. The sooner the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 06:14 PM

Again Dianavan you are making assumptions "Why were the Brits poking at a hornets nest when they knew that Iran was on edge?"
If, as I believe, our personnel were in Iraqui waters then Iran are in the wrong. As I asked before.."Do you know something we don't"? You obviously think they were in the wrong......Or are you just flaming for the hell of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:05 PM

What I'm saying, Georgiansilver, is that when someone is angry, you stay far away. Obviously, they were not far enough away or the abduction wouldn't have been so fast and easy. Britain was on high alert but they were still mucking about in murky waters.

Has anybody ever delved into what the other merchant vessels in the vicinity may have witnessed? Haven't heard much about that have we? Why do you suppose that might be? Its all pretty hush-hush except for the rhetoric that is obviously a build up to war.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:28 AM

Let me spell this out,,,,,there is no conflict of war between IRAN and THE UNITED KINGDOM....They might despise us, hate us for whatever reason, but we are not at war with the country of Iran.. OK, that established, now, heres the idea, P.O.W´s, that meaning "PRISONERS OF WAR" can only be held and detained for the duration of any WAR. P.O.W´s can only be members of bonafide military organisations, otherwise they have to be tried and detained, executed, or released. It is also worth pointing out that any P.O.W held, has to be treated in accordance to the Geneva Convention, thus making it illegal to parade captured persons as some kind of trophy.

Now, here is my point, because no state of war exists between Iran and the U.K, why on earth are they holding 15 sailors and Marines. they should have been questioned, IF they were in Iranian waters, but this should have taken no more than 24 hours.

But as i have said before, we wont find out for sure, because you can bet your mortgage that the Iranians wont give back the GPS equipment the have stolen, like they didnt before.

It is also worth pointing out that this episode can not be compared to Guantanamo Bay, Abhu Grahib etc etc, to do so would completely be misunderstanding the point. This is one country "Iran" showing aggresion to another "U.K".

I would also like to point out that any British detainees at Guantanamo, were removed and repatriated at the request of Mr Blair.

I dont understand the line some people take on these issues, If the U.S or the U.K do something, its all a big cover up, something sly is going on, all a bit cloak and dagger, but if those champions of human rights "Iran" do something, its oh, they are behaving within theyre rights, its just that us westerners dont understand them, and as for poor old Saddaam, well he was the salt of the earth wasnt he, just a bit misunderstood bless him.

As long as we dont have to live under these regimes, best just leave the people who do to suffer them.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:37 AM

"On Monday 5th March, about 100,000 teachers went on strike. On 8th March 10,000 teachers staged a picket outside the Parliament building in Tehran demanding justice and better wages.

According to the Organisation for Womens' Liberation, "all along the regime has refused to meet their demands. On 8th March (International Women's Day), many students and the women's movement showed their solidarity with the teachers. Many 8th march leaflets were distributed among the demonstrators. There were talks among the demonstrators to join the 8th March demonstration by Tehran University .

On Monday 5th March, several thousand factory workers also joined the teachers to demand their unpaid wages. Many workers' committees have issued 8th March messages to commemorate International Women's Day."

The strike is reportedly the biggest industrial dispute in Iran in recent years, with schools forced to close nationwide. Teachers said the strike had not been orchestrated by any labour organisation but had caught on by word of mouth. Labour unions are typically weak and disorganised in Iran."


And by merest chance along comes the prisoner/hostage incident. Nothin' like focusing the folks on the nasty UK marines and sailors to take their minds off a shit economy and crap work conditions. But there'd be no cause/effect there I guess. No, not likely. Naw . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:05 AM

"But Craig Murray, a former British diplomat and Foreign Office specialist on maritime affairs, said, "There is no agreed maritime boundary between Iraq and Iran in the Persian Gulf. Until the current mad propaganda exercise of the last week, nobody would have found that in the least a controversial statement."

In postings on his Web site, www.craigmurray.co.uk, Mr. Murray referred to charts shown by the Royal Navy to reinforce its argument, saying: "The Iran-Iraq maritime boundary shown on the British government map does not exist. It has been drawn up by the British government."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/world/middleeast/01iran.html

...and now Iran has shown Britain a way out. An easy way to get the hostages back home. Lets see if Blair is bright enough to accept.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:16 AM

Hey, Guest - Why didn't Blair negotiate with Iran from the get-go instead of trying to get the U.N., the E.U. and the U.S. to back him up? He's not only a hypocrite but a wimp; a gutless wonder just like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:19 AM

I made a request in the help section that the guest post be deleted. It's in the 'Porn again' thread there. Hoped that would be attended to before you saw it.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:20 AM

Hey Dianavan, at last something we agree on, Guest is a gutless wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:47 AM

Dianavan,
"Has anybody ever delved into what the other merchant vessels in the vicinity may have witnessed? Haven't heard much about that have we? Why do you suppose that might be?"

Neither side has mentioned other ships.
Are they both trying to hide something?
Perhaps there were no other ships. None appears on any of the images.
One ship supporting Britain is obviously not enough to convince you.
How many would it take?
Are there enough ships in the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:48 AM

Guest, whatever you may think of another persons posts, there is never a need to become crude or show your own character in such a foul manner. Dianavan may appear harsh or off key to you but there is no need for such a personal attack. Please try putting your point across...your opinions of what is happening around you.
Dianavan, we have the belief in the UK that a person/persons are innocent until proven guilty and I pretty much tend to go with that until all the facts are out in the open, which I agree does not always happen but your criticism of Blair and the British Government appears to me, at this point unfounded.
There seems to be a trend in modern times to strike out at polititians, particularly those in the unenviable position of being at the head of a countrys' government.......you go along with that ethos, where I tend to wait and see. Even your own President seems to get attacked if he breathes out of the wrong nostril.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:43 PM

Thanks guys.

Its true I can be harsh but like I said, its only because I can't express my opinions face to face. The internet allows me to be bold. More women should take the opportunity because I find the give and take to be quite informative.

Keith - I remember hearing that the Brits had boarded other ships in the area on that day.

In any event, Blair looked anything but calm, collected and diplomatic. In fact his voice was quite shrill and was visibly distraught. That image gives the Iranians (and the rest of the world) the impression that he is out of control.

I also think that before he starts pointing the finger of outrage, he should consider his support of the U.S. who outsources and tortures their hostages - regardles of whether they are guilty or innocent.

btw - although I know the videos were staged, I couldn't help but notice that the sailors were smiling as if the whole thing was a joke. If they were being mistreated, I don't think they would be able to even fake a smile.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:15 PM

I guess I'm not the only one who thinks Blair is ridiculous. Instead of negotiating quietly, he has deceived the public and has chosen to portray himself as a tough guy.

"...impossible to say where a real, negotiated or adjudicated Iran-Iraq boundary might eventually lie. It is also why the instinct of both the Foreign Office and MoD was to play this quietly and negotiate our people back.

But the No10 spin doctors stepped in, seeing a propaganda opportunity to portray Blair as fighting evil Iranians.

Navy and Foreign Office experts were horrified at the notion of publishing that map.

In doing so we entrenched Blair's ridiculous boast that our 15 Navy personnel were definitely in Iraqi territorial seas, and claimed the right to dictate Iran's boundary."

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391078-details/How+I+know+Blair+faked+Iran+map/article.do

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 02:51 PM

"I guess I'm not the only one who thinks Blair is ridiculous. Instead of negotiating quietly, he has deceived the public and has chosen to portray himself as a tough guy."

Not by a long shot dianavan, though I give him much more credit than our guy Bush (doesn't say that much though). He (Bush) should not be allowed to even approch this incedient, though it may be to late, he already started to open his mouth. If Iran & England want to peacefully put this mess behind them their best bet is to ignore the US completely.
Everybody's trying to take this as a photo opp & beat their chest (I agree that you won't see a woman doing this, except maybe Thack-her) instead of trying to think it through clearly.
Establishing a definite border & a promise not to do it again would bring a welcome end to it all but it's clear that some folks don't want to swallow their own spit to spite themselves.
If that's the case I hope both will think twice after the punches start getting thrown.

At this point they both deserve each other for acting so foolish, right from the start.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: GUEST,Can E Ball
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 09:15 PM

The poor Iranians should eat the hostages.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: 282RA
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 10:12 PM

>>but, and this is the point, i am not aware of any conflict between the U.K and Iran. of all the unfortunate footage and pictures seen, i am not aware of any of them being of Iranian military personell. and you are right, Guantanamo bay is obviously no picnic, but i am not aware of any iranian military personell there either.<<

If that's your point, it's a mighty bad one. We are in teh Middle East invading other sovereign nations thinking we can tell them how to live, thinking we can force it on them at the point of a gun. Sorry, but Britain IS EVERY BIT AS GUILTY AS THE US AND DON'T YOU EVER FORGET IT! I'm sick to death of goddamn Britons acting like they can't understand why they're hated over there. OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES, YOU DUMBSHITS!

Britain is neck deep in the colonalism being perpetrated in the MIddle East via lies and deception. Britain HAS NO RIGHT to think they shouldn't be as much a target as the US. Britain is 100% complicit in this pathetic imperialist farce and they'd had better start to get it!!

Seems like the whole rest of the world knows it except Britain and that is starting to get really, really OLD!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 01:11 AM

Britain should stop playing the innocent victim. Anybody that has any sense of British history in the region knows that he has provoked this incident. Iran is very sensitive about that particular waterway and Blair knows it. British sailors were captured by in Iran in 2004 in Shaat al-arab. The British know that Saddam went to war with Iran because of that waterway.

Blair referred to a bogus map and bogus boundaries. Those boundaries do not exist! Saddam tore up the agreement that Iran and Iraq once had. There are no internationally recognized boundaries between Iran and Iraq at this time.

The Brits created an international incident as an excuse to invade Iran. Luckily the U.N. and the E.U did not fall for Tony's act. Hopefully, the world will tell Blair to admit his error and the hostages will be returned.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:29 AM

Dianavan, as I have just said on the other thread, if the map is a fake, the Iranians are using the SAME fake map.
The map they show has exactly the same border shown, but with different locations marked.
The co ordinates at first given by Iran put the arrest on the Iraqi side. When that was pointed out, Iran changed their co ordinates but not the line.
Re other ships, yes other ships were checked. No claims have emerged from them of being illegally borded.
This dispute is confined to a tiny area. Even the Iranians are only claiming to have been 500 metres (600 yards) inside their line. Other ships within a few miles are of no interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:59 AM

"OK, that established, now, heres the idea, P.O.W´s, that meaning "PRISONERS OF WAR" can only be held and detained for the duration of any WAR. P.O.W´s can only be members of bonafide military organisations, otherwise they have to be tried and detained, executed, or released. It is also worth pointing out that any P.O.W held, has to be treated in accordance to the Geneva Convention, thus making it illegal to parade captured persons as some kind of trophy."

Well, you can thank the Americans for leveling what (if any) moral high ground they held before this entire farce started. It was they who designated people as 'Enemy Combatants' to circumvent the Geneva Convention and violate their human rights. They are quite happy to torture individuals in secret CIA facilities, parade them on the TV (as they did with Saddam) and hold them without trial or access to any NGO's or legal aid. Blair is party to these outrages, complicit in the US programme of detention and torture and so has no moral integrity left - this is why the Iranians can get away with kidnapping these servicemen/woman. This is why the wider Arab world supports them, and why they will not come out of this looking like the villans.

Watching B.Lair bluster and spew forth his self-righteous crap is quite pathetic, and his toady Beckett seems unable to grasp the internal schisms that rent Iranian politics - she is most probably talking to someone who doesn't even know where the hostages are being held. The old colonial power is reaping what it sowed so many years ago, as well as the rewards of a close partnership with the Empire of the USA - and it's not pretty to watch.

"The Brits created an international incident as an excuse to invade Iran"

You don't actually believe this do you Dianavan? What a laugh! What are they going to invade with, the W.I.? They don't have enough troops to fight in Afghanistan, let alone invade a country that will put up a fight.

The Loch Ness Monster, by the way, is in all probability a giant eel. This is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:02 AM

OOh 282ra, my my you are upset, Can you not see that i am not defending my countries involvement in the war, but merely pointing out that as a country the U.K has no conflict with the country of Iran.... yes they dont like us, yes my country has a history of colonialism barbarity etc etc, but we are not at war with Iran, they have no mandate of which to hold these personel. these are bonafide military persons, not terrorist suspects, car thiefs etc. and also Dianavan, if there is no fixed border on this waterway, does this make the taking of these hostages even more bizzare.


WHEN YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO SHOUTING AND SWEARING TO TRY TO MAKE YOUR POINT,,,,,,,,,,YOU HAVE LOST!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 06:36 AM

Certain people have already made their minds up and sat in judgement on both the UK and Blair....let's just see what transipres shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 12:19 PM

stigweard - No, I do not believe Britain would "go it alone" and invade Iran. I do believe that they would try to get the U.N., the E.U. and the U.S. to fight the battle for (with) them.

Keith and Blindlemon - Iran knows that Saddam (Iraq) wanted to take that waterway. For the same reasons the U.S./Britain would want that waterway for the present day Iraq. In fact, if they are planning war with Iran, it is strategically important. Iran, on the other hand, would want to make sure that they control that waterway for defense.

Its a sensitive area. British sailors have been abducted there before. Why was Britain have to go anywhere near Iranian territory? They knew the risks. Why did the Cornwall and the helicopter leave the British sailors so vulnerable in such disputed territory?

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:45 PM

"Why did the Cornwall and the helicopter leave the British sailors so vulnerable in such disputed territory?"

There has been talk the Revolutionary Guards had this whole caper planned in advance - the number of Iranian boats that appeared indicates this might be true.

Anyhow, although the gulf is inundated with trigger-happy lunatics it seems a wise choice for the Cornwall to keep her distance and not engage the Iranians, leading to a potentially very dangerous situation. Shows a bit of intelligent thinking on behalf of the ship's Captain - at least i shows not everybody in the coalition is gripped with the American lust for gore - thank god.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM

Asking why the Brits were there is a non issue. They were and are there at the behest of both the UN and Iraq. Thinking they provoked the issue is not good thinking because it overlooks what Iran has done. The over reaction by Iranian forces is for their agenda, not Britain's. People inside the Iraq administration have said that the event was pre-planned and had been for a while. However, I'd guiess that if Bush can shut his fucking mouth, the prisoners/unwilling guests/hostages will be returned within a week. Talks seem to be moving apace.

Subject: RE: BS: Blair the hypocrite
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:06 PM

Nice to know that some people can at least use thought and assess things without the need to attack without evidence. Hi Brucie How are ya?