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BS: Water will run out

saulgoldie 11 Apr 07 - 08:55 AM
Rapparee 11 Apr 07 - 08:59 AM
artbrooks 11 Apr 07 - 10:29 AM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 10:37 AM
M.Ted 11 Apr 07 - 10:43 AM
artbrooks 11 Apr 07 - 12:38 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 01:11 PM
Rapparee 11 Apr 07 - 01:17 PM
Donuel 11 Apr 07 - 01:41 PM
M.Ted 11 Apr 07 - 01:41 PM
George Papavgeris 11 Apr 07 - 01:56 PM
Donuel 11 Apr 07 - 02:01 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 02:05 PM
Donuel 11 Apr 07 - 02:12 PM
Big Mick 11 Apr 07 - 02:17 PM
George Papavgeris 11 Apr 07 - 02:21 PM
George Papavgeris 11 Apr 07 - 02:23 PM
Big Mick 11 Apr 07 - 02:25 PM
M.Ted 11 Apr 07 - 02:37 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 02:56 PM
Wolfgang 11 Apr 07 - 03:02 PM
George Papavgeris 11 Apr 07 - 03:23 PM
George Papavgeris 11 Apr 07 - 03:32 PM
Mrrzy 11 Apr 07 - 03:41 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 03:52 PM
Don Firth 11 Apr 07 - 04:40 PM
Peace 11 Apr 07 - 04:48 PM
skipy 11 Apr 07 - 05:10 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 05:15 PM
artbrooks 11 Apr 07 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,282ra 11 Apr 07 - 05:46 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 05:50 PM
GUEST, Ebbie 11 Apr 07 - 06:28 PM
George Papavgeris 11 Apr 07 - 06:55 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 07:02 PM
GUEST, Ebbie 11 Apr 07 - 07:15 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 07:22 PM
GUEST, Ebbie 11 Apr 07 - 07:39 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 07:56 PM
artbrooks 11 Apr 07 - 08:02 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 08:13 PM
Ebbie 11 Apr 07 - 08:46 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 08:51 PM
artbrooks 11 Apr 07 - 08:57 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 09:18 PM
Ebbie 11 Apr 07 - 09:22 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 09:33 PM
Mrrzy 11 Apr 07 - 09:39 PM
GUEST,P. T. Barnum 11 Apr 07 - 09:44 PM
pdq 11 Apr 07 - 09:56 PM

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Subject: BS: Water will run out
From: saulgoldie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:55 AM

This will be more immediately critical, since one can only survive a few days without water. These are only two of the articles that came up when I Googled "water is running out."


http://environment.guardian.co.uk/water/story/0,,1996350,00.html#article_continue


http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/2533.cfm


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:59 AM

Yes, it's been known for some time. Just that people are paying attention to things like Anna Nicole Smith and English As The Official Language and Justin Timberlake and the World Cup than to actual things that might require thinking and (horrors!) action and (double horrors!) spending more money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:29 AM

The Rio Grande is now dry from El Paso to where the Rio Concho flows in from Mexico. The City of Albuquerque is now using Rio Chama water (for which they have owned the rights for many years) from across the Continental Divide because the combination of the Rio Grande water and wells are inadequate - the well water table is down because of a number of years of drought and little or no snowpack. The population here continues to rise.

But that's all ok...Geo.W. says that there is no such thing as global warming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:37 AM

Amazing. It only took three posts for a blind raving Democrat to blame it on George W. Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:43 AM

The apocalyptic Broadway musical, "Urinetown" is about what happens when the water runs out--listen to It's A Privilege to Pee

It's a privilege to pee
Water's worth its weight
In gold these days

No more bathrooms
Like in olden days
You come here and pay a fee
For the privilege to pee

Twenty years we've had the drought
And our reservoirs have all dried up
I take my baths now in a coffee cup
I boil what's left of it for tea
And it's a privilege to pee

The politicians in their wisdom saw
That there should be a law
The politicians taxed the toilets
And made illegal
Public urination and defecation

So, come and give your coins to me
Write your name here in the record book
The authorities will want to look
If you've been regular with me
If you've paid the proper fee
For the privilege to pee


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:38 PM

Excuse me, pdq? Tell me where I blamed the lack of water or global warming on W? Wild Bill did nothing major to combat the problem, but I do blame W for our being six more years down the road with nothing at all being done about the issue and for the US refusing to sign the (now expiring) Kyoto Accord because (1) it would have an adverse effect on the US economy and (2) there was no guarantee that the developing nations would also reduce their greenhouse gas emissions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:11 PM

artbrooks:

You and some of the other Mudcat self-appointed elite may feel better each time you take a swipe at George W. Bush but it does nothing but make this a hateful close-minded place where a few people rale against their boogyman. Every chance for a serious discussion falls into the rut of "I hate Bush!!!".

It is more dissapointing to see you join that crowd since you (and a few others, like Ron Olesko) are capable of independant thinking. You present yourself as a 'truth-seeker' but make statements like "Geo.W. says that there is no such thing as global warming" which is a bald-faced lie. You are just another Democrat activist hack.

President George W. Bush long ago acceped Global Warming and has made that clear in many public statements for many years. He does question how much is man-caused and he also questions the exagerated numbers used to scare people into thinking that cities will be under water in our lifetime

Truth-seekers look for facts and let the chips fall where they may politically. You are not such a person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:17 PM

The water in the snowpack in Idaho is less than 41% of average. This wipes out any gains we made last year. The fire season is looking to be gruesome, and there won't be enough hotshot crews, smokejumpers, and general firefighters to take care of it.

"Water is the gold of The West." Remember that when Northern California cuts off the water to Southern California, or when Utah finally cuts off the water in the Colorado and Law Vegas goes dry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:41 PM

Water tables have dropped. Inland seas in Russia and lakes in Africa have vanished.
Lake Mead is down over 50 feet. But at least the oceans are rising.

Funny thing about lake property. You may own a lake side home but some one else probably owns the lake bottom, so other people could buy a build a new house at the shore which is now beyond your now dry dock.

Right wing radio still have shows saying that the ice is getting thicker in Greenland and Antarctica and that glaciers are growing again. They say there is no global warming but rather there is a solar cycle to blame since even Mars is heating up. The peculiar axis and orbit of Earth and ice core evidence, suggests that we are already 5,000 years over due for a ice age.

As things get warmer there are areas that will get more precipitation and other areas like the US southwest that will have extended drought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:41 PM

Incidentally--"Urinetown" was scheduled to be produced in DC(at Fords Theatre,I think), until the Justice Department, by way of John Ashcroft, intervened. Either the administration felt that the show was unfair in it's portrayal of corporate fascism, or they just didn't like the idea of people singing about "Urinetown" so close to the White House--


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:56 PM

Ah, pdq, "there's none so blind as them what won't see...". So, George W has "...long ago acceped Global Warming and has made that clear in many public statements for many years", eh? Funny how long it took him to accept the Kyoto agreement then, what with him being so serious about it! And funny how late in the day his concern for the polar bears' habitat has come!

Oh, and cities have been under water - at least one in recent years. How quickly you forget! But it starts like that - with one city. By the time you have charted a graph with the trends it's alredy too late.

I won't lay the blame for global warming or risk of future lack of water on GWB's door (as indeed artbrooks never did). But I do blame him for his country's late and inadequate response to the issues to date.

And I may not live in the US, and I may not be the equivalent of your laughingly called "Democrats"; but my stake in this is just as big as yours or the next Bangladeshi kid to drown in the next monsoons, because you're farting upwind of where I breathe.

Put a bung in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:01 PM

George

I saw a show about Cleopatra's mansion which is underwater.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:05 PM

George Papavgeris:

You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground about Global Warming. If you talk about something you know you won't appear to be such a fool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:12 PM

nevermind


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:17 PM

pdq, I defend your right to your opinions, even though they often run counter to mine. But your response to George Papavgeris was the sign of weak debating skills, and lack of appropriate knowledge to carry on civilized conversation. It is the equivalent of a six year old saying "Oh yeah........?".

Answer the man's contentions, or grab a coke,sit in the corner, and smile.

As to the water situation, I can only speak to the USA. We here in the Great Lakes region are watching very carefully. We have a pretty good supply of water. But due to piss poor conservation efforts, and resistance by the right wingers (like GWB), the rest of the country is finding itself in a pinch. There is irony to us, in that the wealthy ruling class abandoned our region to go south and west in search of cheaper wages and weaker labor laws, and now that the water is running out, they want to pipe Great Lakes water around the country. Our attitude, and that of our neighbor to the north is that if you want the water, come here and build your plants. But you aren't going to pipe it anywhere.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:21 PM

Was that your argument, pdq? I bow to the power of such evidence... But bless you, you have just given me an idea for a song. It will be posted on this thread when I am done, and I will forever dedicate it to you whenever I sing it.

No cloud witout a silver lining, eh? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:23 PM

Sorry, Donuel, your comment was caught in the crossfire!


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:25 PM

Donuel, I assume the Sea you are referring to in Russion is the Aril Sea. It is drying up because the two rivers that feed it were diverted for irrigation purposes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:37 PM

Listen to the song--


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:56 PM

Big George P. sez:

"Funny how long it took him to accept the Kyoto agreement then, what with him being so serious about it!"

No, George W. Bush does not accept Kyoto nor will he be signing it. Your statement is false.

And funny how late in the day his concern for the polar bears' habitat has come!

Polar bears are increasing in population and President Bush has nothing to do with that either. (Clinton is a more likely suspect)

Oh, and cities have been under water - at least one in recent years. How quickly you forget!

2 cm per decade ocean rise is pretty easy to avoid. Even slow-moving Labourites can get out of the way.

I won't lay the blame for global warming or risk of future lack of water on GWB's door (as indeed artbrooks never did). But I do blame him for his country's late and inadequate response to the issues to date.

What is President Bush supposed to do, dim the Sun?

"equivalent of your laughingly called 'Democrats'"

Truth in advertising is called for. Most Mudcatters are Democrats, many are active in party politics. Nothing a Republican says or does will be give a fair shake by these people.

"the next Bangladeshi kid to drown in the next monsoons"

Actually, coastal cities are subsiding. New Orleans has dropped nearly 3 feet in elevation in the past 100 years. This is a real problem, not a made-up one.

"because you're farting upwind of where I breathe"

That statement makes it clear which one of us is an asshole.

"Put a bung in it."

See previous answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:02 PM

It is something to be slightly worried about for there may well be wars for access to water. But the immediately critical, since one can only survive a few days without water scare is not necessary for the process will be much slower and will be felt first in irrigation, cleaning and not in drinking.

And then, of course water will actually never run out and I'll explain to you why. Clean water is incredibly cheap now and therefore is wasted like any cheap resource. On a Greek island, I once saw an irrigation system with some hoses linked together and the whole path on which the hoses were laid out was completely wet because the hoses had lots of holes in them and the connections were far from optimal. Perhaps 20% of the water reached the field. The farmer took the water from a nearby river and didn't pay for it so he didn't care about wasting water. On a larger scale, London is losing lots of drinking water to leaks in the old system.

Once a resource like water is getting scarce, it is getting more expensive and then, and not even one day before it, people will start thinking about how to avoid wasting a precious resource. As soon as water gets much more expensive, people are willing to pay for finding and closing leaks, will use irrigation systems bringing only drops of water to the roots instead of irrigating a whole field including the weeds, will pay for systems using the waste water from the house (shower, etc.) for flushing the toilet water. The transition will be smooth for most countries.

All natural resources should be paid for much more than now. Then the market will soon stop the wasting of resources.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:23 PM

pdq,

- Thank you for making my first point for me (so GWB never signed, is that good in your books? Does that show concern?)
- Thank you for causing a smile with your answer to the second point
- Thank you for the seriousness of your answer to my third point - but carry it through: 10cm in 50 years means how much landmass lost to your grandchildren?
- Thank you for the petulance of your answer to my fourth point (dim the Sun, indeed!)
- Thank you for the irrelevance of your answer to my sixth point

As for the political leanings of Mudcatters, I take unsupported statements such as "most Mudcatters are Democrats" with a pinch of salt. There are all sorts of shades of politics out there. The fact is that you don't know squat, you go by the couple of dozen regular combatants in the Mudcat's political threads, ignoring the silent majority or making assumptions about them (how nice of you).

And you repeated your name-calling of me. That must have been the clincher in your argument, I assume, hence the repetition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:32 PM

Wolfgang, I think I agree with you that the transition will be smooth for most developed countries; not so sure about the developing world though, as some of those countries are teetering on the edge, with deserts encroaching all the time and lack the resources (and in some cases the organisation) to ride the change.

And I share wholeheartedly your fear about "water wars", though I am more than slightly worried. I think such wars will very likely begin in the developing countries, but I don't hold much hope that the matter will end there, once the ball starts rolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:41 PM

pdq - that's Rail, not Rale.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:52 PM

Right you are, Mrrzy. We all learn something each and every day. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 04:40 PM

A few years ago, my wife inherited a share in a piece of farm land in Kansas. It was willed to a group of cousins, one of whom actually farms the land. She receives a yearly check for her share of the proceeds (a nominal amount, true, but much better than a boil on the butt!). Along with the check, she gets a lot of agricultural bulletins. The following is an excerpt:
"The Ogallala Aquifer of the central United States is one of the world's great aquifers, but in places it is being rapidly depleted for growing municipal use, and continuing agricultural use. This huge aquifer, which underlies portions of eight states, contain primarily fossil water from the time of the last glaciation. Annual recharge, in the more arid portions of the aquifer, is estimated to total only about ten percent of annual withdrawals."
What happens to our food supply if the aquifers used to irrigate agricultural land all go bye-bye?

Remember that old joke sign? The one that said

Remember, Plan Ahead

Don Firth

P. S. And the population of polar bears is increasing?? Source please, pdq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 04:48 PM

Bear facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: skipy
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:10 PM

If you open a tap (faucet?) water will run out!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:15 PM

ESA Listing Not Needed for Polar Bears


Written By: H. Sterling Burnett
Published In: Environment News
Publication Date: March 1, 2007

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Despite healthy polar bear populations upwards of 20,000 bears worldwide, U.S. Secretary of the Interior Dirk Kempthorne announced on December 27 the Bush administration's plan to list the polar bear as threatened under the Endangered Species Act.

Kempthorne's announcement began a 12-month period of public comment and scientific review.


Global Warming Blamed

While acknowledging polar bear populations are not currently in decline, Kempthorne stated in a news release, "we are concerned that the polar bears' habitat may literally be melting." If the bear is listed as threatened, it will be the first time a species was placed on the Endangered Species list based on the threat of global warming.

Greenpeace and the Natural Resources Defense Council had previously sued the Bush administration, attempting to force it to list the species at threatened.

Environmental activist groups have offered anecdotal evidence that four polar bears drowned while swimming in Alaska's Beaufort Sea, and that three polar bears attacked and ate other polar bears, allegedly due to hunger.

In addition, environmentalists contend human activities are causing global warming and that such warming will melt most of the ice at the North Pole within 50 years. If that happens, they argue, polar bears will be unable to hunt seals, their preferred prey, without the polar ice.


Populations Are Growing

Environmental activists have presented only one academic study that shows any negative effect of warming temperatures on polar bears. That study examined only one population of polar bears, in Canada's Western Hudson Bay, and linked the early breakup of ice in the bay to a 21 percent decline in the polar bear population.

Other, more comprehensive research suggests the plight of that one population does not reflect the polar bear population trend as a whole.

Since the 1970s, while much of the world was warming, polar bear numbers increased dramatically, from roughly 5,000 to 25,000 bears, a higher polar bear population than has existed at any time in the twentieth century. Scientists believe polar bears thrived in the past in temperatures even warmer than at present--during the medieval warm period 1,000 years ago and during the Holocene Climate Optimum between 5,000 and 9,000 years ago.


Thrive During Warm Times

Polar bears have thrived during warmer climates because they are omnivores, like their cousins the brown and black bears. Though polar bears eat seals more than any other food source, research shows they have a varied diet. When other foods are available--including fish, kelp, caribou, ducks, sea birds, musk ox, and walrus carcasses--they take advantage of it.

Dr. Mitchell Taylor, a biologist with Nunavut Territorial government in Canada, pointed out in testimony to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service that modest warming may be beneficial to bears since it creates better habitat for seals and would dramatically increase growth of blueberries, upon which bears gorge themselves when available.

Taylor explained Alaska's polar bear population is stable and recent research shows the polar bear population in Canada alone has increased 25 percent from 12,000 to 15,000 during the past decade, with 11 of Canada's 13 polar bear populations stable or increasing in number. Where polar bear weight and numbers are declining, Taylor thinks the cause is too many bears competing for food, not Arctic warming.

Climate scientist David Legates said shrinking Arctic sea ice may be a temporary, local phenomenon not linked to global warming, especially as the polar ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica are not in decline.

"Russian coastal-station records of both the extent of sea ice and the thickness of fast ice (ice fixed to the shoreline or seafloor) extending back 125 years show significant variability over 60- to 80-year periods," said Legates.


Enviro Group Refutes Alarmism

The World Wildlife Fund (WWF) has written on the threats allegedly posed to polar bears from global warming. According to the WWF, there are approximately 22,000 polar bears in about 20 distinct populations worldwide. Only two bear populations--accounting for about 16.4 percent of the total number of bears--are decreasing, and they are in areas where air temperatures have actually fallen, such as the Baffin Bay region.

By contrast, another two populations--about 13.6 percent of the total number--are growing, and they live in areas where air temperatures have risen, near the Bering Strait and the Chukchi Sea.

As for the rest, 10 populations representing about 45.4 percent of the total number of bears are stable, and the status of the remaining six populations is unknown.


Ulterior Motives

Many analysts see the proposal to list the polar bear as threatened as not so much about the welfare of the bears themselves but as an effort to force the Bush administration to adopt regulations to limit greenhouse gas emissions.

Steven Milloy, publisher of JunkScience.com and an adjunct scholar with the National Center for Policy Analysis, said the media attention at the Kempthorne news conference did not revolve around whether the bears were actually at risk, but rather whether the announcement meant "the Bush administration was caving on global warming."

Milloy noted, "If the administration admits that the bear is dying due to climate change, it may be forced to start energy rationing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in order to comply with the Endangered Species Act. This is what the environmentalists filing the lawsuit had in mind all along."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

H. Sterling Burnett (sterling.burnett@ncpa.org) is a senior fellow with the National Center for Policy Analysis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:43 PM

Just for information, and implying no bias of any kind:

The National Center for Policy Analysis, of course, is the organization that says Franklin Roosevelt was a "collectivist" and has taken the lead in redefining the word "liberal" to encompass every possible opinion, belief and policy that they find objectionable. Its stated goal is "to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector. Topics include reforms in health care, taxes, Social Security, welfare, criminal justice, education and environmental regulation."

The Heartland Institute, which produces Environment News gives its mission as "to discover and promote free-market solutions to social and economic problems. Such solutions include parental choice in education, choice and personal responsibility in health care, market-based approaches to environmental protection, privatization of public services, and deregulation in areas where property rights and markets do a better job than government."


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: GUEST,282ra
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:46 PM

Yeah, artbrooks, think just like pdq or you're not an independent thinker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:50 PM

...from the article I posted:

According to the WWF, there are approximately 22,000 polar bears in about 20 distinct populations worldwide. Only two bear populations--accounting for about 16.4 percent of the total number of bears--are decreasing"

World Wildlife Fund is more objective than some Environmental groups. I give money to them and Nature Conservancy only.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 06:28 PM

A quick look and it appears to me that the WWF doesn't sound as sanguine as all that, pdq. I googled 'wwf + polar bears' and this came up:

"As the world's largest terrestrial carnivore, the polar bear is the king of the great white north. It might come as a surprise then that this majestic species faces an uncertain future: Climate change is causing the disappearance of sea ice from which polar bears hunt their prey. Research funded by WWF found that with less time on the ice to hunt for food and store it leaves polar bears hungry and hinders reproduction. If current climate trends continue unabated, polar bears could become extinct by the end of this century. WWF is engaged on the ground and in the policy arena to address the causes of climate change and reduce its impact on wildlife and the world's wild places. Learn more about Polar Bears"


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 06:55 PM

But, pdq, you can't have both sides of the argument. Either the polar bear is not threatened (and the administration was wrong to recommend its inclusion under the ESA), or it is indeed threatened (and the administration was correct with its recommendation). Make your mind up, please.

And meanwhile all I had stated was that the administration took its time with this decision, which is not indicative of great concern - a point that you have not refuted. It is not the specific issue of the polar bears that I was discussing, but the tardiness of action on behalf of the administration, in matters related to global warming.

That tardiness, given the size of the USA and its position in the global economy, impacts the whole world; and the world has every right to be getting impatient therefore.

Furthermore, this is not a party political issue; it took a lot longer than GWB's and Clinton's terms in office to bring us to where we are. If there is personal blame, let them both share it - do you think the world cares? This goes beyond party lines, and my guess is, so would any likely solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:02 PM

For years we have heard stories about the success that resulted from banning DDT, passing the Endangered Species Act of 1973 and several hunting bans. The bald eagle, the whooping crane and the polar bear was each making a spectacular comeback we were told. Now that it is necessary to change the story and support the Global Warming, we are told that the polar bear population is decreasing. Actually, their population is near 25,000, up from about 5,000 when the ESA passed. Whooping cranes up from 59 to 219. Bald eagles up from The approximately 32 pairs in the 1960s to 435 pairs in 2003.

Is anyone sick of the constant 'doom and gloom' for political purposes? I am.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:15 PM

I gather that you are not a scientist, pdq. You seem to think that these success stories just kind of happened by themselves, rather than being the result of intensive thought and effort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:22 PM

I am a biologist and I know some of the people who worked very hard for years to make those comebacks possible.

Ebbie, if you really believe that a five fold increase in the polar bear population in the hast 35 years constitutes a decrease, you need to unlearn New Math.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:39 PM

Perhaps a biologist is as a biologist does. Why does your assessment vary so dramatically from the official word? And please address the discrepancy between what you said was the WWF's position and what I quoted them as saying in actuality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:56 PM

A few years ago the WWF site would have bragged about their successes in helping endangered species. They also would have asked for financial help to 'keep up the good work'.

Evidently, they have been politicized. Belief in Global Warming is now required to get government grants. Waving the flag for GW seems to scare people into sending more money that they were getting by explaining things scientifically. Remember, the top Environmental organizations get their ranking by 'how much money they take in' - nothing to do with 'how much good work they do'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:02 PM

The polar bear population overall has increased since their hunting (other than by the native Inuit people) was banned in 1973. A study of the polar bear population in the Western Hudson Bay region shows that it has decreased by about 22% since the early 1980s; this correlates to an earlier ice break-up on Hudson Bay over that period of time. Two separate facts, unrelated to each other. According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, "in the declining polar bear population of Canada's Western Hudson Bay, extensive scientific studies have indicated that the increased observation of bears on land is a result of changing distribution patterns and a result of changes in the accessibility of sea ice habitat."


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:13 PM

Thank you, Art. That fits perfectly with the older (pre-politization) statement by WWF that there are 20 distinct polar bear populations and ony two of them are decreasing. Overall, there has been a steady population increase since the ESA of 1973 was passed which included a hunting ban and habitat protections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:46 PM

"pre-politization". Hmmmmm. Ya just can't trust anyone any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:51 PM

Sad but true, ain't it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:57 PM

WWF: 16 Dec 2006
The number of polar bear populations in decline has increased from one in 2001 to five in 2006, WWF warned today. There are only 19 polar bear populations in the world, so this decline represents more then a quarter of the species' populations.

Declining populations of polar bears indicate that the entire Arctic is under immense stress as a result of climate change. With the Arctic warming at more than twice the rate of the rest of the world, and sea ice over the Arctic projected to disappear in summer before the end of this century, polar bears face serious trouble, especially as they depend on sea ice to live, hunt and breed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:18 PM

The politicization of science means that everything you read is either opinion or propaganda.

...this decline represents more then a quarter of the species' populations.

A loss of one or two individuals in five (of the 19 or 20) separate polar bear populations would make the statement technically true, but deceptive. The population increase since 1973 is huge, 6,000 have grown to 22,000 in the most conservative estimate. I say thank you to the game management people who made that possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:22 PM

I have a feeling that actual scientists would take distinct exception to your statement, pdq. That doesn't necessarily mean that I can't believe that you are a biologist but it does imply that there are fringe people in every discipline.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:33 PM

Ebbie,

You say "I have a feeling..." which is precisely the problem. Feelings don't trump facts no matter how much you would like them to. People who think with their feelings are worthless in science. Glad you stuck to Home Economics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:39 PM

Besides, isn't the amount of water kind of a constant? If there is less in the sea, then there is more in the atmosphere? The issue, as with all resources, is one of distribution... there is enough food for all, but only some have access to it. With technology we could irrigate the Sahara - if we could only work together. Not to mention that using more water for irrigation of where there isn't any would also solve the issue of rising sea levels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: GUEST,P. T. Barnum
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:44 PM

We just exited a mini-ice age. Now the sun is flaring at record levels. Frozen moons are thawing all through the solar system. And it's all on accounta humans.

Meanwhile, we have insane Illuminatists on the point of TAXING YOU TO BREATHE. Look at this, scheduled for this summer. Gonna whip those ignorant kids into a frenzy on 7-7-7. The Illuminati loves the # 7 and the # 11. And I thought Al Gore was just a fat old puppet.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/science/global_warming_bandwagon_reach_fever_pitch_7_7_7.htm

3/4 of the planet covered in water (just on the surface), and now they're telling you there's no water. Man o man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Water will run out
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:56 PM

Interesting point about the water vapor in the atmosphere. I suspect it is quite small in relation to the volume of water is our oceans.

As far as irrigating the deserts, why should we. Every part of Earth is ecologically distinct and deserves to be preserved as much as possible. What we need is a constant population so that the delivery systems of food, water and health care can be planned. Right now we are in a near panic mode trying to compensate for the Third World's irresponsible competition to see which group (Moslems, Catholics and Blacks) can produce the most kids.


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