What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?

Subject: What is acceptable...?
From: pirandello
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:41 AM

...in terms of material at your average (if there is such a thing) folk club open mic. The music we play in my duo varies tremendously in scope and origin; for example Bluegrass, English contemporary folk, Irish trad tunes etc.
Has anyone ever encountered real opposition from purists regarding their shows or others, irrespective of how well the performance was given?

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:34 AM

Oh too true, when I lived in Oxford many years ago a good few of the club organisers distinctly frowned on anyone who didn't have a digit firmly stuck in the aural orifice and one or two frowned on instruments of any description

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: GUEST,John Robinson
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:36 AM

Yes!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:47 AM

What I personally like is musical taste and enthusiasm. Folk music should be ever evolving and don't let anyone tell anyone otherwise. If the audience likes what they hear then that's what counts. If the purists don't like it - well that's their friggin problem -they can plug their ears and stick their feet in the mud.                                             .

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: mandotim
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:51 AM

As someone with a fairly eclectic repertoire; yes, this is a regular occurrence. Includes a recent session encounter with a bodhran player who took me to task in a very public way, and reckoned I should play slower 'because he had played with Ewan MacColl'. I wouldn't mind, but I was playing a couple of Irish polkas at a lively but still danceable speed (think Planxty), and I'm not sure what MacColl had to do with Irish music anyway. Bluegrass jams can be a bit prone to the 'that ain't the way Earl/Bill woulda done it' syndrome, and some singaround crowds (usually friends who've been meeting for years) look at you funny if you play an instrument and sing at the same time.
Luckily, I play in a great session at the Wilkes Head in Leek, Staffs where just about anything goes; two kinds of music are played. Good and bad, and bad is ok as long as it's played with passion and soul. Example; Purple Haze for ukulele and double bass duet!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:29 AM

Sadly , there are still a few people around who have the "I Dont Like It So Its Rubbish" attitude to music , but in my experience , most clubs cant afford to alienate ANY one ! So though a club may LEAN towards the tradition . or blues , or Whatever , simple economics mean that no one is excluded . The only proviso seems to be that the music should at least be worth listening to .

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: skipy
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:39 AM

Hi, leadfingers!
Skipy

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:41 AM

No.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: Trevor Thomas
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:43 AM

It depends on the club I suppose. Most audiences are quite open to different things if they're done well, and often quite tolerant and supportive even if they're not done well.

I wasn't around in the 60s, but from what I've heard it wasn't unusual to have people doing unaccompanied ballads, other people playing blues or ragtime, (Martin Carthy used to play Big Bill Broonzy for instance) and singer/songwriter types all to frequent the same club. Now you get places (sessions more than clubs, perhaps) where instruments are banned, and others where singing is banned. You get places where only Irish music is acceptable, or only English music is acceptable. You get 'old time' sessions where bluegrass is frowned on, and bluegrass sessions where 'old time' is frowned on.

When I was younger, I've been sneered at for playing an Irish tune in a bluegrass session, and sneered at more for playing a bluegrass tune in an Irish session.

However, I've seen an American bluegrass band playing a set of Irish tunes, and I've seen Irish fellers do American tunes, and nobody seemed to mind.

I'd suggest if it was an open mic (or open 'floor' for acoustic clubs), then I can't see anyone objecting to the sort of stuff you're suggesting, especially if you play it well. So long as you don't do something that goes on for twenty minutes, it'd be fine by me.

Bob Brozman says that the only reason musical 'genres' exist is because record companies invented them so they could organise their stock. Play whatever you like. Some people might not like certain things, but you can't like everything, can you?

I agree with Mandotim - as far as I'm concerned there's only really good and bad music. I play both kinds.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:04 PM

The best thing is to go along and listen first - and don't always expect to join in the first time you go.

I'm not sure you get much actual 'banning' in clubs or sessions these days. It may seem like banning if they're not encouraging you, but it pays to look further.

What you may have found is a group of people of like mind who've got together to do their particular thing - whatever that is. Remember that regular musical gatherings don't usually happen by accident. A group of enthusiasts will have started and maintained the night - often with huge amount of effort to keeping it going through lean times, so it's only reasonable that they should call the shots (if you don't like it you can always start up your own gathering)!

Ok, the event may be taking place in a public space, so one would hope they'll welcome newcomers and tolerate and even applaud an occasional foray into territory where they themselves might not choose to tread, but it's also only good manners for you to understand that they like things the way they are, and will probably - one would hope, again, politely - steer the music back to whatever it was that got them together in the first place.

If you look in the web and folk-mag listings for your area, there will often be a clue as to what various evenings are for: Trad song, bluegrass, Irish diddle, English, French, Chanteys, Shape Note... etc. If there isn't, then go along - and ask.

Could well turn out to be one of the many clubs and sessions where anything goes, in which case you'll be well away.

Have fun!

Tom

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: synbyn
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:28 PM

endorse your posting, Tom, above all the idea that one listens first to the general tenor of the evening- after all, one is joining a bunch of (one hopes)new friends, and they may have something fresh to offer.

At Nellies in Tonbridge we run a folk club where we would like to hear a variety of styles- each performer has a floor spot and there is no restriction on type of material- though in deference to our guests it ought to be listenable- after all, we don't want the audience disappearing before the hat take!

Most sessions in West Kent are similarly embracing- especially the Travelling Folk sessions which run fortnightly 1st & 3rd Thurs of the month at different venues- check the Beehive for current list.

Anyone nearby the Beacon, Rusthall, on 4th Mon of the month will find a similar welcome- it's good for our ears to be refreshed too...

Hope to see you
Bob

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: Nick
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:32 PM

Ahh, but you're not a FOLK musician. You are a non-defined hybrid. What are you doing in a FOLK club?

Purists are what keep folk clubs pure.

By definition they aren't concerned with acoustic clubs or singarounds or sessions or groups of people gettin-togethers or one of the other hybrid beasts that aren't folk clubs. You will know them when you meet them; they are the people that frown and tell you you are playing the wrong sort of music and then rush away to spawn loads of threads on Mudcat desperately trying to understand what folk music is and worry that it won't exist in the future.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:49 PM

How can "they" ban a performer before they hear him/her?

Seems to me that a prospective participant should have some idea of the "policy" or preferred style at a given venue, and also that any club or pub or whatever where some kind of restrictions are ienforced would advise performers up-front as to what might be expected of them.

Now, if you are advised after your moment in the spotlight that you won't be welcome again, perhaps you should take the stated reasons with a grain of salt. Whereas you might be told that your choice of material was inappropriate, maybe the real reason is simply that no one wants to endure your inept efforts ever again. In other words, maybe your critics are just trying to be kind and let you down easily.

If a first-time performer exhibits skill and musicality but is truly at odds with a venue's policy regarding musical genre, wouldn't they be asked if they had other material within the acceptable format, and perhaps be invited back if and only if they would be able to trot out a different bit of their repertoire in order to conform?

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:00 PM

No they don't ban you. they give your material that you have sweated blood over a frigid reception, and then laugh their bollocks off at someone reading The Molecatcher from an exercise book, and then getting all the funny lines wrong.

folkmusic clubs like this will live on unto eternity - the middle classes need them to prove to themselves they have a living tradition of being superior to the rest of us.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Marje
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:09 PM

It's not entirely clear whether the original question relates to the UK or the US (often the cause of much confusion on Mudcat).

I can't speak for the US, but I'd say that in the UK the organisers will usually make it clear what their general policy is (you can always ask them if it's not apparent to you). It's not necessarily a case of narrow-minded "purists" getting in the way of good music - some clubs activly encourage certain types of music, so everyone knows what they're getting and can go elsewhere if it's not what they're looking for.

If a club actually calls itself "open mic", that would suggest to me that most of the music will be instrumental or accompanied, with less audience participation than at a singaround style of club. You'd probably be fine there, whereas a solo unaccompanied singer might not be so comfortable. If on the other hand they say it's a song club, they'll be more keen on songs that people can join in with, and much of it may be unaccompanied - you might not fit in so well there. Visit the club and you'll soon be able to work it out.

Sessions are sometimes specific about the genre or origin of the music (eg only Irish, etc) but clubs are generally happy enough to welcome varied contributions - their main problem is not the choice of material but how to discourage the really bad performers. People who play as a duo have generally practised together and are thus good enough to entertain others (which is plainly not the case for all solo performers!), so I'd think the right sort of club would welcome you.

Marje

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:55 PM

Oh dear WeeLittleDrummer. It seems we were born on opposite sides of the tracks and so can never be friends! What on earth are we going to do at Belvoir if they put us on the same stage? I presume we'll have to have a battle of some kind.. How about we both come dressed in those huge foam costumes from It's a Knockout? I'll be Little Lord Fontleroy and you can be Arthur Mullard, and we'll cover the stage in fairy liquid, tie ourselves to the PA stacks with bungy ropes, and beat eachother over the head with massive rolled up copies of the Magna Carta. The first one to finish a song without playing a wrong note wins. What do you say?

Tom

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: pirandello
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM

Thanks for all your well considered responses and there's some food for thought there.
I'm in England (Devon) and am returning to acoustic music after a long sojourn in the Dark (electric) Side!
I've been playing for many, many years as a semi-pro so I work hard at producing a well-played and professional sounding act.
The reason I posed the question is that I have been used to rock/blues audiences who will accept pretty much anything you want to throw at them so long as the delivery is of a reasonable quality.
My live acoustic experience has been very limited since the folk boom of the sixties when I would inhabit Bunjies, The Troubadour, Les Cousins on a regular basis and I have a feeling that things have changed considerably since then!
Cheers
Andrew

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:06 PM

When you walk in Belvoir Castle you will see a hall full of muskets, and a wall of sabres set in perfect circular arrangements. They are the arms that the Duke provided for a regiment he raised in the 1800's to subdue the Irish (so the lady guide will tell you). Doubtless someone will be singing rebel ballads over the weekend.

Tom, we English can laugh at ourselves - otherwise you'd cry.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 03:18 PM

I would say that show tunes, sung in a Howard Keel type voice, never seem right - or go down very well - in a folk club. I have also heard people muttering in disapproval if a classical piece of music is played on the guitar.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: Ref
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:07 PM

"Open Mike" should mean just that, unless there's an obvious clue like the club being named "The Traditional Irish Instrumental Music ONLY Club." The rub comes in finding out what level of proficiency will be tolerated. Our local club (NH, US) allows just about anything, and those of us with standards just smile tightly and bear it. Heck, musicians have to start somewhere. A problem would arise if you've got microphone hoggers with no talent, or people who claim free admission as a "performer" because they read a couple of half-assed poems or tell some jokes they read on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:13 PM

Raggytash - in my student days, in Oxford long ago, I was responsible, for one term, for running the Heritage club at the (long demolished and redeveloped) Baker's Arms, Cardigan Street, Jericho. I don't think I was unkind to people with instruments or who didn't stick digits in aural orifices, but if I was, I apologise (it was a long time ago and I was too young to know better...)

Kitty

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:25 PM

"Open Mike" should mean just that, unless there's an obvious clue like the club being named "The Traditional Irish Instrumental Music ONLY Club."

that's exactly the sort of place you find people singing Johnny Cash songs!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:48 PM

pretty much anything goes at our club-swing, folk, bit of jazz, Eagles anything as long as you don't plug it in and them that do we don't mind too much as long as it isn't to loud -the thing we dont like is if you are trying to get as many people on and its a full club night and someone decides to WAFFLE and introduce the song what it means to them how their granny cried when they first heard it, that is as collected from blah blah which in my book means it was on a CD they once hear and then after 3 minutes of blurb they finally sing and someone who you actually want to hear can,t get on because you run out of time--------now that annoys me!so cut out the long intros and we will love you forever.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Bert
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 07:42 PM

Ask.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 03:45 AM

I've posted this before in a similar thread, but.....

AS I WAS A-PRACTICING…                  Tune: 'Streets of Laredo'

As I was a-practicing 'Stairway to Heaven',
As I was a-practicing Zeppelin one day,
I turned up the volume to way past eleven,
Plugged in my old Fender and started to play.

Then forty bars in, I came to my senses,
Playing this stuff is a bit of a joke,
I ought to be out in a pub in the country,
I know I'll be happier playing some folk.

So I sold my electric and bought an acoustic,
Learned some new chords, C, G7, A,
I listened to records by Carthy and Swarbrick,
And found an old folk song I wanted to play.

So I learnt all the words of this famous old folk song,
All about fishermen out on the sea,
Then proudly I carried my nice new acoustic,
To a pub where the music was legendary.

I sat down by the fire with the rest of the players,
Suddenly everyone's glaring at me,
'You can't have that chair, it's reserved for old Charley,
He's sat there each night since 1903.'

So I sat down again at the end of the bar-room,
Waited my time to join in and play,
It got to my turn so I got up and started
My song about fishermen out in the bay.

I finished my song and I sat down to silence,
Somebody said, 'Can't you play it in A?
In the seventeenth verse you sang 'nets', we sing 'rigging',
And we play it slower 'cos we like it that way.'

And the chorus we play is a little bit different,
But ours is the right one, and yours is just wrong,
You can't come in here with your brand new acoustic,
And make such a mess of our favourite song.

Well I never went back to that pub in the country,
The pub where the music is precious and rare,
I found me a pub where there's squit on a Thursday,   
Where I can play rubbish, and I just don't care.


(In Suffolk, 'squit' = 'rubbish')

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 03:56 AM

If the questioner is talking about 'anything goes' clubs rather than policy clubs - fine - anything goes, as long as the performance is proficient and committed enough to their material.
Policy clubs are a different matter.
I get very tired of hearing performers whingeing about turning up to a club and being given the cold shoulder because their material doesn't fit in with club policy.
I often wonder who are the 'folk fascists' (well, I don't really); those people who run clubs to promote songs and music corresponding to their own tastes and ideas, or those who turn up and sing or play anything that suits their fancy, irrespective of the expectations of audience or organisers.
In my experience, too often, indifferent reaction to bad judgement (and quite often naff performance) is put down to intolerance on the part of the club rather than insensitivity and ineptitude on the part of the performer - or don't club organisers and regulars have any say in what goes on in their clubs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:21 AM

The one generalisation you can make about folk clubs is that they're all different. There are folk clubs that are happy with anything you play as long as you're not a horse. There are others where anything apart from unaccompanied traditional singing is treated coldly - and there are folk clubs where if you don't turn up with a guitar the organisers will assume you're 'just' a listener and will ignore you all night.

There is no 'standard format' to which you must sign up to be called a folk club. Remember that the organisers and regulars set up the club as a home for their tastes in music - they are entitled to run their club as they see fit. It seems the height of arrogance to say 'I'm going to sing whatever I like in your club and condemn you for intolerance if you don't like it'.

Most clubs I've been to welcome a fairly wide range of music, but there are exceptions - and not just on the 'pure tradition' side of the fence. Some club organisers share WLD's pathological hatred and contempt of anything not written in their own lifetimes. . . ;-}

Good advice above - listen, ask and, if you don't like a club's policy and can't persuade it to change - go elsewhere.

Andrew

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,banjoman
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:29 AM

There was one club in the 70's (no name no pack drill) who auditioned floor singers in the corridor outside before deciding to let them on.
I remember at Whitby in 1972? one Johnny Handel saying during a lecture he gave that if anyone wanted to play his appalachian dulcimer he was welcome to do so provided he went somewhere else to do it.
Clubs I have been involved in have thrived on a wide variety of music and abilities and thats what has always kept the interest going

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:04 AM

I think this where the Irish get it so right. Somehow they all know that the continuance of the tradition isn't down to some bloke doing a PhD somewhere - its that seamless eclecticism that they do so well.

You get a young girl singing in Irish and then she'll give just the same committment to song by Kris Kristoferson. You see it on Christy Moore records as well of course.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Nick
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:47 PM

I agree that there is intolerance on both/all sides but I'll give you one or two observations.

I always thought that I have liked and listened to folk music since the mid 60's and I have always thought that folk music encompassed all the sorts of stuff that I grew up with - Bert Jansch - John renborun - Roy Harper - Fairport - Steeleye Span - Davy Graham - Incedible String Band; as well as accompanied and unaccompanied traditional singing. I think there was a time when a lot of American singer songwriters would also have been seen as being part of the wide thing of 'folk' (Tom Paxton - Judy Collins - Joni Mitchell - perhaps James Taylor even).

But there is a group of people - some inhabit here, others I have met in person - who believe that my idea of folk is 'wrong' and that folk has a much narrower meaning but that also needs to be protected and kept pure.

They are the people who have come into our singaround thing and told us what songs we should sing and what we should and shouldn't do. It's a one way thing too - we always make them welcome.

It's a bit like the feeling you get when Jehovah's Witnesses come to your door - you either welcome it or not.

Having said that I am more than happy that people have their views as long as they don't stuff them down my throat. If I go and sing or play anywhere I try to fit in with the rules of the place I go to because I believe that is manners. If the place doesn't suit my tastes I don't return rather than believing I have a missionary zeal to change it. Different strokes for different folks (no pun intended).

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: cptsnapper
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:50 PM

One of the things I enjoy about sessions, or even more formal settings, is the sort of atmosphere where you find that people have to be forced to go home at the end of the event because they're so busy talking to each other. Let's not forget that song & music are ways of connecting with each other & some will respond to certain things but not others. So really I'm pretty tolerant as long as whatever is sung and or played contributes to an overall feeling of wellbeing. It would be a shame if people went home feeling that they'd heard some good music - however defined - but ended up feeling lonely & left out of things. Because we all lose if that happens.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:52 PM

1). Phone Ahead.
2). Ask what the club's preferred format might be.
3). Tell the person on the other end of the line what it is that YOU do.
4). If he says "Come along, you'll be welcome", you go.
5). If he sounds dubious, thank him politely for his time, and check out the next club on your list.

After all, if you go to a club where they won't like your act, you aren't going to enjoy it, so, unless you're a masochist, why bother?

It's worked for me for 47 years, and I only got it wrong twice, but that's two other stories.

Good luck
Don T.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM

Kitty

I occasionally frequented the Baker's in Jericho 1980-82 when I was a student up there, it was more out in the "sticks" Kirklington and beyond as well as Oxford centre. I cannot recall after all these years the names of the clubs or pubs, but if you were one of the guilty ....you're forgiven ....(provided I get a big cuddle next time you're in Whitby)

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:58 PM

P.S. All the clubs I have been involved in as an organiser have welcomed absolutely everyone, but you do have to respect the fact that different people have different ideas (a club based entirely on acapella, or a group specialising in "Childe Ballads, for example).

DT

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 04:30 PM

No, it is not a wide variety of music that kept the clubs going; just the opposite, it is a non-definition of music at 'folk' clubs that drove audiences away in their thousands.
People choose very carefully what music they want to listen to - at least those with discrimination and a real interest in music do.
Crane driver is right when he suggests "if you don't like a club's policy and can't persuade it to change - go elsewhere".
Toleration has nothing to do with the running of clubs. People have the right to set up any type of music venue they wish, and in doing so they make up their own rules and limits as to what goes on there, and audiences attend or not on the basis of those decisions.
The problems arise when they attached labels to their clubs which simply don't stand scrutiny.
As far as I'm concerned; "Bert Jansch - John renborun - Roy Harper - Fairport - Steeleye Span - Davy Graham - Incedible String Band; (Tom Paxton - Judy Collins - Joni Mitchell - perhaps James Taylor even)" do not fall within my definition of 'folk' and I really wouldn't bother to drag myself out to attend a club whose policy incorporated any of them. If my opinion is wrong I would like to hear an accepted definition that does include these names - (please - if we continue to flog the 'talking horse' bit someone is sure to call the RSPCA. I'm convinced that it is always given the 'anon' label because no self-respecting individual would ever own up to having said something so crass!)_
The urban legend about the club that held auditions for floor-singers is, I am convinced, a result of somebody's feverish imagination. No club I know has ever had such a policy, nobody has ever been able to name the alleged club, and no performer I know would ever subject themself to such an indignity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:01 PM

Its the kind of music you hear in anyone of the half dozen folk clubs that running tonight round here.

You may be the expert of what folk music should be Jim.

Reality imposes its own discipline.

Ignore it, and you're in the same situation as the Yanks are with their gun law. You can see it causes them real anguish - it really offends their cultural values - but 30 thousand dead people a year who would otherwise be alive is a disaster.

The music you are dismissing is the acoustic music ordinary pople have taken to their hearts. A folkmusic without the generality of the folk is a pretty sad prospect.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:34 PM

O-p-e-n M-i-c as Ref says means "open mic" and implies just that. I have seen ads that state acoustic instruments only. Have yet to see any restrictions as to what kind of songs will be played. I do less OM's these days but try to check out the venue before jumping into a bad scene.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:54 PM

Raggytash

I ran a "folk clubs reunited" session at Sidmouth festival a few years ago, on the Monday night (in a marquee in the garden of the Volunteer), for people to come and enjoy as a general sing or to meet up with people they used to know at their folk club, particularly if it ran on a Monday night.

I suggested the reunion session to the management after I'd been to a party on the festival campsite the year before, and had sung "Ask the old barman to pour me another, me throat is fair bleeding for want of a wet, and the good resolutions I made to my mother are the good resolutions I drink to forget." Pete Luscombe (Portsmouth Shantymen, Ramskyte, Wholehearted, father of Becky Luscombe) confessed to me that he too had been a President of Heritage.

We had a great night at the Volunteer because there have been loads of good Monday night clubs. Including the Portsmouth club, which was celebrating its last night at the Railway, minus Pete Luscombe and Brian Ingham because they were in Sidmouth. And we reunited Mike of Northumbria and McGrath of Harlow, who hadn't seen each other since one of them got married.

We also had Mary Humphreys reminding us of great Monday night sessions in Manchester,

Kitty

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:26 PM

Yes. I can name a folk club that asked for auditions. I can name two, and there may have been more. THe Mucky Duck - Chester - late 60s early 70s. Its ads said ring for a floor spot. I did. They asked me to audition and said it was policy. Second, that place slightly north of London (plainly not a "folk club") that the Villan runs and Breezy attends glories in selecting floor singers.

Likewise, GUEST (why are they always in capitals?) since "folk" has the 1954 definition, although both Fairport and Steeleye used amplifiers and altered arrangements, and wrote contemporary songs, they were also "folk" performers by definition.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Nick
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:50 PM

>>No, it is not a wide variety of music that kept the clubs going; just the opposite, it is a non-definition of music at 'folk' clubs that drove audiences away in their thousands.

I'm 52, Jim and come from a distantly musical family but not an obviously passed down folk tradition (my grandfather and relatives were Scottish singers and teachers of music and a great or great great uncle (fine baritone voice) recorded hundreds of records between the 20s and 50s and apparently wrote a song for Vera Lynn that she recorded but I have never met or known any of them).

I never came across a proper folk club until I went to university where I saw the people I quoted amongst many others - many of whom, like Wizz Jones or John Martyn or Linda and Richard Thompson or Derek Brimstone or Jeremy Taylor or Allan Taylor etc etc still play and are accepted in some folk clubs. Before I went to university I listened to a load of the people I mentiond before and many others.

I was one of those people who went to folk clubs but I guess it must have been after the thousands disappeared because this is the sort of idea of folk that many people who didn't grow up in a different sort of world think folk is.

That I'm wrong or right matters not a jot, but a few people of a similar age to me may have a similarish view and some of them still go to folk clubs and some of them don't. Most probably go and watch something else (Beautiful South? Shania Twain? James Blunt? Opera? Whatever)

>>People choose very carefully what music they want to listen to - at least those with discrimination and a real interest in music do.
Crane driver is right when he suggests "if you don't like a club's policy and can't persuade it to change - go elsewhere".

I agree with the first bit and the end bit - why the "and can't persuade it to change"? Every now and again a friend of ours comes down and plays a nice pop tune and says 'Why don't we have a sixties night one night?' and we smile and say "Fantastic. You organise it any other night than xxxxday"

>>Toleration has nothing to do with the running of clubs. People have the right to set up any type of music venue they wish, and in doing so they make up their own rules and limits as to what goes on there, and audiences attend or not on the basis of those decisions.

Agree with you totally. Presumably it was the inability of folk club organisers to understand this that messed things up and drove people away.

>>The problems arise when they attached labels to their clubs which simply don't stand scrutiny.
As far as I'm concerned; "Bert Jansch - John renborun - Roy Harper - Fairport - Steeleye Span - Davy Graham - Incedible String Band; (Tom Paxton - Judy Collins - Joni Mitchell - perhaps James Taylor even)" do not fall within my definition of 'folk' and I really wouldn't bother to drag myself out to attend a club whose policy incorporated any of them.

I live in North Yorkshire and there is the Black Swan Folk Club in York who do a fine job and have a web site where you can see what they put on. There is a folk club in Thirsk where people come and sing. There is a folk club in Harrogate which survives still though after a few changes chronicled on mudcat. Beverley has a folk festival and various folk things going on. Driffield a bit. Whitby has a range of things. Richmond has a club that I have meant to get to but not quite. There are weekends in Staithes (great fun) and is/was a Mudcat gathering nr Selby which I have been to for the last couple of years but may be struggling this year. I get to Mickleby occasionally. There are others within 30 mlies of me but not many that meet that regularly.

The common denominator in most of these is that they are reasonably broad church rather than narrow and constantly strive to balance their programmes to try to attract people.

Where we play we meet every week and care less about what we are defined as more about what we want to do and bring to the table. People sing and play and do what they can and I always thought that was something about what it was all about. Perhaps they all have to write their own material or bring curiously local songs handed down to make it ok.

I went to the Dolphin in Whitby week the other year and struggled. I went invited by friends who are very into the tradition and wanted to enjoy myself but found it so hard listening to the songs which often had no tune and no discernible rhythm delivered (to the best of ability I'm sure) in little voices. The less the tune, the less the performance the more the applause. So I'm sorry I don't understand that - I have tried. (Similarly I got to the limits of my jazz with Ornette Coleman and Pharaoh Saunders at their most extreme). It's the pure 'proper' bit of folk that I have trouble with sometimes but do realise it informs, underpins and oils the wheels of the stuff I like. One day I may understand it.

Weirdly one of the people I went with (who loves and understands the traditions and songs and performances and ambience etc and has had the Cecil Sharp visits, the Tap and Spile in Whitby where you get a go every three days etc) had never sang in public before she came to sing with us because she wasn't good enough - noone knew she could sing. Thank goodness she does now - what a waste of years

>>and I really wouldn't bother to drag myself out

Then don't. As an aside - even though they may not be folk musicians - some of them are really quite good. If they are some of the people that kept the people away in their thousands and destroyed folk music then there is less hope for me than I thought when I started writing

>>If my opinion is wrong I would like to hear an accepted definition that does include these names - (please - if we continue to flog the 'talking horse' bit someone is sure to call the RSPCA. I'm convinced that it is always given the 'anon' label because no self-respecting individual would ever own up to having said something so crass!)

Jim - I genuinely hope you define it so that the thousands can come back. There is no sarcasm at all meant in that.

If you are ever in North Yorkshire PM me and come and have a sing or a play or recitation or whatever you care to contribute. Accept us for what we are; try and change us if you care to; then either come back and do it again or don't dependent on what you find. But you would be welcome as would anyone else who ever cares to do something in this ill-defined folk thing. We enjoy ourselves and smile every week and look forward to the next.

Every Wednesday we get together and sing and play, do poems or whatever. We make a hell of a noise when we chorus songs together (unaccompanied folk songs!!). Listen when people sing quietly. Encourage the person who has never tried but always wanted to. It probably isn't folk but it feels a bit like it.

Be happy

Nick
Flaxton_and_ex-Farlington_Singaround_and_Session_thing_that_encourages_people_to_come_and_be_a_part_of_an_ill_defined_thing_that_continues_to_grow_inspite_of_it_being undefinedish.com

PS Not a folk plug but I'm playing in round 2 of Battle of the Bands in York at the Junction tonight so do come and support. Older than the rest of the band put together and still loving it. :)

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:57 PM

Que?

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Nick
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:11 PM

Richard

Perhaps I ought to drink less and post more as GUEST

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:27 AM

Nick,
I'm 66 and have been involved in 'folk music' since my early twenties.
I'm pretty sure I know what 'folk music' is - it's the music and song that drew me into the clubs way back when. Without re-opening the 'definition' argument, (plenty of threads on this forum for that) if I ever forget what it is, I can always go to my bookshelf and refresh my memory from the many hundreds of books there.
My taste and interest in music is fairly catholic; I love jazz and blues and some classics, I regularly listen to Sinatra and Peggy Lee and I have a sneaky regard for some early C&W (nostalgia rather than taste).
I have no interest whatsoever in pop music - it leaves me stone cold (and has done since the early sixties - when The Beatles and football were instrumental in driving me from my home city of Liverpool).
I, like everybody else I know, pigeonholes their tastes. If I want to listen to chamber music, that's what goes on the player, similarly with any other category of music. In the old days back home, I would go to The Cavern (a jazz club then) for my jazz, to the top floor of Sampson and Barlow's for my C&W and to the middle floor of the same establishment or to Gregson's Well for my folk.
When I went out at night, I knew precisely what I would hear, and I could tailor my evenings to suit my moods and inclinations.
That is still the case with Jazz, C&W, Blues and classical music, but it has long ceased to be so with folk music.
I and ( I am convinced) thousands like me ceased to attend 'folk' clubs when they became the dumping grounds for any category of song and music it suited people to attach with the label 'folk', usually for personal convenience rather than misunderstanding and ignorance.
I often used to wonder how an audience for (say) classical music that had turned up for a concert, would react if they were presented with Tommy Peoples - long queues at the box office for their money back, and rapidly dwindling audience if the practice was repeated.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM

I really do respect you Jim, and your committment to your vision of folk music, which many if not all your contributions are about.

however this bit:-
I often used to wonder how an audience for (say) classical music that had turned up for a concert, would react if they were presented with Tommy Peoples - long queues at the box office for their money back, and rapidly dwindling audience if the practice was repeated.

it really is a bit disingenuous - as it presupposes that there are a vast of army of frustrated folk fans who hunger and thirst for the spirit of Cecilia Costello, Tommy Peoples, et al to be there in the clubs.

I just know that this is so far from the sensibility of most modern people, and I think bottom line - you damn well know it too!

The awful fact is that the big emptying of the folk clubs took place in the late 60's early 70's when so many people were performing traditional material without the skill to make it palatable - if indeed such a skill exists. I have yet to be completely convinced.

I used to give guitar lessons. I persuaded this lady pupil to go to a folk club, and she took a group of her friends from work to go and see a folk performer I had recommended - as he was and is a marvellous musician. It was a disaster.

Its the earnestness, the Cromwellian zeal that defeats most modern listeners - that and the deliberate rejection of 20th century musical idioms of rhythm, style and pronunciation.

people are always telling me I talk rubbish on this site. at least its rubbish, I've arrived at from my own experience - rather than that shelf full of books.

Kind regards.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:47 PM

Just an observation: I often hear people attending classical concerts complain about modern composers like Schönberg etc., and many jazz fans don`t like dixieland - so this doesn`t seem to be something special to folk/folkies. So everywhere there seem to be people who complain about things being too modern (like Jim?) or too old fasioned (like WLD?). Seems there is no help at all...

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

Jim and I are both on the same side - we both want to see folk clubs - plenty of places for folksingers to work, and develop their skills.

Jim thinks we need to hold hard to our national identity. I think we need to hold onto an audience that has buggered off already.

I think maybe we are both doomed to disappointment.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Marje
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM

At classical concerts, they somtimes adopt the "classical sandwich" approach - you start and finish the concert with well-loved pieces and put something new and unfamiliar in the middle. The audience may find they like it more than they expected (in my observation, they may choose this point to have a nap, but perhaps I shouldn't generalise from what I've seen in Worthing on a Sunday afternoon).

I would like to say how this could be applied in folk, but I'm struggling. I suppose individual artists/bands can and do try similar strategies, but in a mixed folk concert, people will just get up and wander off to the bar (or leave for good in a festival with season tickets) if they think they're not going to enjoy it.

For me, one of the nice things about festivals with season tickets is that I can get a taster of new artists and types of music without committing to a whole evening of them. It's more difficult for clubs to make this sort of things possible, although there are possibilities - theme nights, nights where good regular floor singers do extended spots, etc.

Clubs can still make it clear what kind of music they're about, and yet be a bit imaginative in the way they run the evening, not just offering the same floor singers doing the same old songs every week or month.

Marje

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:19 PM

Most of the open mic's that I've been to have been pretty eclectic. At the one that I currently host we have a woman who comes in each week and plays Buddy Holly tunes on a pennywhistle. A couple of months ago we had a guy who played "Blue Monk" on an accordian. We have a fellow who comes in, from time to time, who just brings a pair of drumsticks. he lines up chairs, tables, music stands, and anything else he can find and creates rhythm for fifteen minutes. If an open mic is working properly all styles of music are welcome.

Stephen Lee Rich

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: goodbar
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 01:58 AM

play whatever the hell you want. seriously, who the **** cares?

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 06:04 AM

I have been interested in Folk Music for 40 years now. In all that time I have only known two people who have actually been banned from folk clubs (as opposed to not receiving an enthusiastic reception - which, I suspect, many people on this and similar threads interpret as being 'banned'). One of these two people was banned because (a) he was disruptive and (b) a really bad singer. The other person was banned because he was a really, really, really bad singer. Interestingly, they both chose to sing very, very long songs (no, not traditional ballads) and their floor spots therefore seemed interminable - there's a lesson there for us all!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Geoff Wright
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:16 AM

What's the difference between an Open Mike Session and North Yorkshire Folk on Radio York?

Very little, judging by this thread. If you don't like it, scrap it.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Grab
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:18 AM

Jim, a question. You say that for jazz, C&W, blues and classical music, you can go out and know what to expect - I presume by that you mean it will be purely that genre with no crossover.

I don't see how that can be, though. Jazz bands may well play some blues. Blues, you might get people like Robben Ford playing what's near-as-dammit jazz, or they might play in a rock style in spite of playing acoustic instruments. C&W, there's the inevitable country-rock crossover. And classical is the biggest mixed bag of all, given that most classical composers took influences from the popular music of the day - jazz influences on 20th century composers are too numerous to mention, then there's folk influences for Vaughan Williams and his crew, etc.

Is your concern the crossover, or simply that at a "folk" club, there might be more people playing blues/jazz/rock-tinged folk than trad folk?

Graham.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 02:52 AM

Wee little drummer
Just to clear things up - In the time I have been involved in folk music I have been a floor singer, a club resident, an organiser, a chair shifter, a doorkeeper - and all the things that go into the running of a club. The books are - and have always been part of what I do.
Over the last few decades I have been involved in research, mainly in collecting.
Please don't think that any experience and knowlege comes from a bookshelf.
One of the great myths that has created confusion around terms like 'folk' and 'tradition' is that our traditional singers never discriminated in the type of songs they sang, so why should we. THIS IS NOT TRUE. The fact that has given rise to this myth is that nobody really bothered to ask them.
Our experience has been very different. I suggest you read the article I put together in the enthusiasms column of Musical Traditions - not for anything I have to say, but for what one of our best (and last) traditional singers, Walter Pardon (and others) thought on the issue.
You are right of course that lack of skill (and application) played a part in the exodus away from the clubs, but I know what sealed it for me was the time I went to a folk club and didn't hear a folk song, confirmed not so long ago by being told of a club in the North of England that put on an evening of Beatles songs! I know I am not alone in holding this opinion, I personally know of many others and there have been enough people on various threads on this forum echoing my opinion.
I think your dates for the exodus are a little out. Sure - there was a dip in attendances after the folk boom - when the singing pullovers went their various ways, but right into the eighties I still had to wade through columns of clubs in Time Out and Melody Maker to decide which one I would visit. My wife could, and did, arrange bookings for singers like Paddy Tunney, John and Tim Lyons and other traditionally based singers, and I could, if I wished, leave a superb evening of ballads at The Singers Club and walk for ten minutes to hear Gordon McCulloch and Bobby Campbell singing at The Metropolitan.
Topic was spending money as if it was going out of fashion, putting out excellent albums of traditional singers and Neil Wayne, Dobell's and Collets had shops exclusively for the sale of folk music on record. For a time even EFDSS had a shop!
Folk music has never really been a majority interest, but the the clubs were, not so long ago, financially viable.
In the end it boils down to our motives for being involved. I signed up to hear good traditional songs well sung, and I hoped that the poetic and musical forms I was listening to would form a template for the creation of new songs equally as good and relevent as the old ones. That was happening for a time - it no longer does.
I measured my success by the number of new people I saw being drawn into the clubs   
For me, the great failed experiment was the 'anything goes' club, based on the false premise that by including all types of song at the clubs would draw in an audience for the real thing. It doesn't work - and there's no reason why it should.
Personally I'm into folk song, because that's what I like and that's what I would like to pass on. If I can't do that, I've (we've) failed and I'll stay at home listening to my recordings, and leave what information and music I have gathered for posterity for them to make up their own minds as to whether it has any relevence to them.
By the way, I was puzzled by your "hold hard to our national identity" reference. As somebody who was born in England, with a strong liking for Scots songs and ballads, who has researched and is now living in Ireland and is highly partial to Eastern European singing, I'm not sure where the 'national' bit comes from.
Grab;
Of course fusion and crossover takes place - no reason why it shouldn't. It's just that I would like to be given the choice of listening or not listening to it by being told what I am paying my entrance fee for. It's a long time since I went to a jazz club (a bit thin on the ground here in the West of Ireland). The clubs used to make clear what they were and did exactly what it said on the tin - maybe they don't any more.
Goodbar
Of course anybody can and should be able to play what they want - it's never been a case of what they play, but where they play it and what they call it.
Who the **** cares? As a punter who turns up to hear folk music and arrives to find some Onenist whispering something not remotely resembling what I had in mind into a guitar and giving the impression that he wishes we'd all go away and leave him at it, I ******* care. That's not folk music as I have come to understand it.
Anybody has the right to play and sing whatever they wish; I as, say, a club organiser, or a club regular - or just somebody interested, equally have a right to tell them to sling their hook and go and do what they are doing somewhere else.
Jim Carroll
PS Richard - thanks for the information on the clubs that auditioned their floor singers - I never gave it any credence and always had the sneaky feeling it was a sideswipe at MacColl and The Singers Club - thank you for putting me right.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 03:41 AM

Jim , I had never had any doubt that your opinions are not based on solid experience.

I just have real reservations about those who write about folk music. And when I look at the general thrust of those university and polytech courses I have seen on folk music. they give me the same misgivings.

As for the Beatles evenings in a folk club - I think many organisers are just doing their damndest to keep afloat. Somewhere in there the folk revival lost the common touch.

As we struggle to get it back - you're going to see some odd things.

As far as the national identity thing I'm always reminded of a series of long conversations I had with Ian Campbell back in the 70's. He said to me - Alan, we had to get rid of the 'coffee bar cowboys'.

As we were both running half empty clubs at the time, I thought...... we could have done with a few of them in tonight!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 10:45 AM

Richard Bridge
>>Second, that place slightly north of London (plainly not a "folk club") that the Villan runs and Breezy attends glories in selecting floor singers.<<

Did I ask you to audition?

I am quite open about how I run my club, and have even changed it from Market Rasen Folk Club to Faldingworth Live to reflect better what the club is about.

My club is concert style, and floorspots are available in advance for those people that want to partake. There is no pressure on anybody to come to my club if they don't want to.

I really don't see what your problem is here Richard. I work bloody hard for nowt (in fact I have ploughed quite a lot of money into to the club and I don't have an income at all) to provide as much variety of good quality music as possible in a rural area. Whats wrong with that?

Have a llok at the diary and youi will see for yourself.

Cheers
Les worrall
http://www.faldingworthlive.co.uk/Diary.htm

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: pirandello
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 11:59 AM

Perhaps the answer is to stop labelling 'folk clubs' as such and just call them acoustic music venues where all are welcome, cliques and snobbery are avoided, a wide variety of music is heard and maybe, just maybe, a few people might go home with ears opened to new experiences and, more importantly, will come back again.

Minority interests always attract a minority of people and I can't see how exclusively 'folk' clubs are able to survive. In Exeter I doubt whether there are many more than a couple of dozen people who like folk music to the exclusion of all other styles; yet, judging by the number of people showing up at open mics there are hundreds enjoying acoustic music of all genres.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 05:13 PM

My problem Villan? You set up a condition that people audition before being permitted to perform. That, to me, is not acceptable for a folk club. As neither is a microphone.

No doubt a policy for a mic night - but by definition not an "open" mic night. No doubt useful for a music club.

Nothing to do with folk.

No, you never asked me to audition - you don't want a folk singer.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 05:36 PM

I dunno he books alot of other folk artists.

He's allright Richard - give him a ring - see if you want to do his club.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Nick
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:40 PM

Pirandello

You sit on the crux of an argument that will never get sorted.

Richard Bridge was enormously helpful to me when I was buying equipment and (because I would like to say thank you in person) is one of those people on Mudcat I would really like to meet.

On forums (pedants leap in) you assume and see sides of people. I sort of knew that Richard was a player - singer - something but he's now leapt - IN MY MIND - into being an extremist folk person and I never realised that.

I always thought that one day I'd meet Richard and Jim Carroll and the world would be ok. I really hope I'm right and I don't trip over my prejudices

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 08:51 PM

Look - put together 10-15 minutes and perform in-out-done.

Have FUN!!! SING!!!! REJOYCE!!!!

If they like you they will invite you back.

If it is not their style - they will tell you.

Just like a BBS forum (Mudcat) sit and watch awhile...see if you fit in.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 09:20 PM

Well I am amazed at your statement Richard.

I don't audition poeple at all.

I may invite them to do a 25 minute floorspot initially if they want to and I don't know them, or send me a CD or if they have a myspace website with video, even better. But an audition!!!!!!!!!!

Tonight I had on No Fixed Abode, John Conolly & Bill Meek, Cara and Andrew Tiffany and had over 60 people attend.

To list every performer I have had on at my club over the last 4/5 years would be very difficult as so many people have been on at the club.

However, the following people have performed full gigs and been paid the asking price on my Saturday night concerts which started in October 2004.
Graham Moore & Gill Redmond
Martyn Wyndham-Read
John Conolly
Bill Whaley & Dave Fletcher
Jez Lowe & Kate Bramley
Bob Fox
Allan Taylor
Anthony John Clarke

Coming up for the rest of 2007 as full gigs
His Worship & The Pig
Derek Brimstone
Bram Taylor
Pete Coe
Flossie Malavialle

On top of that I have a main guest every other Friday paid, who perform 1 hour and 3 support acts that do 25 minute floorspots. Which has been operating for 4/5 years. The mix on that is so varied.

So please Richard can you explain your attack on me. I do my very best to bring people who can entertain a listening audience in a very rural area and it is succesful.

I think that I am doing something that a lot of people wouldn't get off their arse to do, especially if all their time is for nowt. It is very time consuming but something I am very proud of, and comments like yours do nothing to encourage people like myself to carry on.

When I stop at the end of the year, I can at least say I have done my very best. Who will be the losers. Not me.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:16 AM

It's very simple, Villan. You made it clear from word one that you would only let people play in your venue if you thought they were good enough. What you are doing is taking folk music (and neofolk that is performed in the same setting) away from people, leaving it to their gurus, putting yourself between the people and the music, and setting it up on a platform to be passively consumed. That's the music business ethos, even if you do not personally profit from it.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:37 AM

I would be interested to learn how running a club to present the music you like and believe to be important enough to make an effort for can possibly be described as cliquish or snobbery. Why should we be expected to present a 'wide variety' of music? Do we expect, say, a jazz club to present anything other than jazz; if I attend a disco (god help me), would it be reasonable for me to expect Country and Western?
If we make the running of clubs an object in themselves I believe we have really dropped the ball.
My point remains - what are we involved in the music for?
My reasons are based on the purely selfish notion of continuing to get the enormous pleasure I got, and still get from hearing a good traditional song well sung. While I might enjoy listening to a Mozart trio, or Anita O'day singing 'Tea For Two', there is nothing like Sheila Stewart singing 'Tiftie's Annie' or Mary Delaney's 'Buried in Kilkenny' or Walter Pardon's rendition of 'Broomfield Hill' to set the hairs on the back of my neck bristling. I would love to think that people are getting the same buzz long after I'm doing my bit to produce feed for the local livestock.
We have been visiting this part of the West of Ireland for over 30 years and up to 15 of those, I would have said with confidence that traditional Irish music was on its last gasp. It was in the hands of a few stubborn old gits like Junior Crehan who, despite the trends, insisted on playing what was contemptuously referred to by the media as 'diddly-di-music'. Now the music has blossomed. Last St Patrick's Day saw around 50 youngsters in this (small) town out on the parade playing flutes, fiddles, pipes, concertinas, whistles, melodeons - and playing them well. Thanks to the efforts of Junior (now dead) and a handful of dedicated people who bucked the trend, kept the old styles alive and took time out to pass on the music to younger people, it is safe for at least another couple of generations. This certainly didn't happen by watering it down to make it 'presentable'.
Maybe it would help those who have no interest in traditional music if they re-named their particular brand as 'accoustic' - interesting thought; though I suspect that in next to no time somebody who wanted to play their electronic keyboard or amplified fiddle would be labelling the organisers as 'finger-in-ear', 'purist', or 'accoustic police'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:46 AM

Richard, in defence of Villan and the hundreds of other clubs who also operate a concert policy I feel I should point out that there have ALWAYS been places where musicians and singers entertained for money, where an element of quality control was in place, and where both new and old material was performed. There is nothing wrong with that, and these venues take nothing away from from people at all. Rather they are helping to spread the music around.

There have also always been places that were not about money or quality; the home, the workplace, the social gathering, the church, where music fulfilled other functions, and the songs and tunes have always travelled back and forth between all of these.

We all know this, and no-one has a problem with any of it. There is only one reason why people fall out about it: Language.

People can have very different personal definitions of the same word - in this case 'Folk.'

You object to people applying that word to venues like Villan's (though you know he doesn't use it himself), because you feel that if it IS used, then what happens inside should belong in my second category above, not my first.

Others don't have that problem, but only because they are happy for the word Folk to be applied to the first category too - because their definition is now different to yours.

Yes, there was a time when the word folk was that clearly defined, and in those days you'd have had a good point, but now the language has moved on.

The truth is that you can no more stop the evolution of language than you can halt the flow of lava. If I was to say to both my Mum and my daughter that my gay bro had a wicked mouse on his mac, they would both have a very different picture in their heads (and my mother would be very confused - because I don't have a brother).

If you want people to follow you, you need to use language that they can't misunderstand. So any insistence on only the old defintion of folk is going to lead to confusion and hence trouble. It's a shame, but like global warming and George Bush it happened.

When i want to refer to the thing you're talking about I'm willing to use two words, old dances, or traditional songs, or collected songs. It doesn't take much longer, and people rarely misunderstand.

As for clubs - well there are plenty that do have the policy you espouse. Personally I hope both types thrive - along with all those that lie somewhere between.

I'd say out challeng today is to get younger people to embrace the whole scene before we all die off. So the more the merrier, whatever we call it!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: guitar
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:47 AM

at the Irvine folk club, nearly anything goes, folk, blues, bluegrass, country, pop (within reason), because it's music at the end of the day, and these folk clubs where is just stricly folk music and nothing else must be very boring.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Sooz
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:20 AM

Some good points well made, Tom.

The main thing is, if people enjoy going to a club, whatever it's style, they will go again, and again. Success is what we want, isn't it?

Variety is essential. For anyone coming to Gainsborough Folk Club for a singers night it is a bit of a lottery as you never know quite what is going to happen or who will be performing. (And of course it could be you!)This leads to some wonderful sessions and unpredictability is a major part of its charm. Over the years, we have seen some very hesitant beginners turn into proficient performers.

On the other hand, anyone can look at Villan's diary to see who is on the bill and decide if they want to see them or not. As he says it is their choice.

Last night we went to a club we hadn't visited for a long time for a singers night because we fancied doing a bit ourselves rather than watching others. We saw half a dozen singers who we hadn't seen before doing a variety of material (although to be honest, very little of it fitted even my liberal definition of folk). One of them was absolutely brilliant (and young) which really made it worth the drive.

Vive la difference!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:44 AM

Some years ago some friends started up a new club. They didn't want it to be too prescriptive so they advertised it as a "music club".

On the first evening two well-dressed ladies were sat in the front row. After the first song, they looked at each other in horror, and one said, "Oh my God, it's a FOLK club!". They left.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:55 AM

May I also add Richard, that what I put on at my club is one thing.

I am also a member of Gainsborough Folk Club and Grimsby Folk Club and wherever possible, will attend other clubs in the area.

Last week whilst on holiday at Whitby, I managed to visit 4 clubs in Whitby. All of them were different.

They are all different to my club, and thats what makes life interesting.

I believe that the variety of the different clubs is important and together helps to keep the music alive.

Ah well you stick to what you like Richard and I will continue my way and have a lot of fun and see many talented people and above all hope that the music survives in as many ways possible for the better of all.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:56 AM

Indeed, Sue. I guess Faldingworth and the like could be described as owing as much to the old Music Hall tradition as to folk clubs - which are after all a very modern invention.

I've played places called folk clubs where we were the only people who made a sound, and gone to others with the same title where I was very much a guest and greatly in repect of the locals and their traditions - and felt honoured when I got some applause for a song. There's room for all.

What does help is to try to signal what the event will be about - ideally in the title, though that's never going to be a perfect science and you need to make things clear on the night as well.

Like Richard and Jim I'm evangelical about the need not to loose touch with our musical tradition(s), and some positive descrimitation is definately necessary, so some dedicated events are essential. But I'm also reasonably confident that there's enough great old music about for people always to stumble on, and fall in love with, historic works because they have a good tune, words or story - and from that will follow more discoveries and riches.

What we ARE in danger of loosing is the concept of live music played socially and informally, particularly live music with clear roots. The homogenisation of music that happens when it is treated solely as a product is a real threat, and does need to be resisted.

We were only saying at the New Roots event in St Albans last week how imprtant it is for everyone to encourage young people to see the benefit of informal musical gatherings. The Bridge in Newcastle has a great policy of deliberately attracting youngsters (mainly from the degree course) by offering a monthly youngsters evening. York and others do something similar.

Let's have... Good concerts where the all performances are worth the money charged on the door, AND casual gatherings where even the most timid can feel able to contribute, AND places where endagered musical styles and material are celebrated, AND all the permutations thereof. Let's have it all - and not worry overmuch what we call it.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:38 AM

we have a open imc at the Irvine Folk club every Marymass, and I Tom hamilton gets roped in, I don't win because I don't treat it as a compantion.

Last year I didn't even know that I was in the Open Mic.

Tom Hamilton

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:46 AM

I'm not so sure jim its the people you say who are responsible for the continuance and such popularity of folk music as there is. In this day of mass communication - isn't it the stars and popularisers who capture peoples imaginations the Lunnys, the riverdancers, interviews with the Pogues - talking about their influences. That sort of thing.

as any clarinet teacher - when the parents take the kids for their first lesson - its always - how long til he can play stranger on the shore - not some piece by Mozart.

I can remember people sneering at Swarbrick - saying there are ten year olds in Ireland who play better fiddle than that.

the trouble with the traditionalists - is we're never traditional enough for them.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: pirandello
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 08:37 AM

My answer to the sneerers has always been,'you go and do it 'better', then'. Silence usually follows.
Swarbrick may not have been the be all and end all for the traditionalist but at least he was up there and doing it.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:18 PM

"and these folk clubs where is just stricly folk music and nothing else must be very boring".
MacColl once said that the problem the folk revival was facing is that it had fallen into the hands of people who didn't like folk music.
I think his point is being made on this thread very well.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:23 PM

I'd agree with you there, Jim, if you swapped Traditional for Folk :-)

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 04:12 PM

Yeh maybe you're right. If folk music is what you guys insist it is, then perhaps I don't like it.

Trouble is with your argument....it not in my hands. Most of the folk djs are fervently traddy as are the half dozen folk journos. And yet somehow the whole movement is juddering and has been for the last 20 years at least. I've been trying to suggest its the generally snotty interface with humanity that lies at the root of your problems - however I can see the seeds of this idea are falling on stoney ground.

And incidentally Richard - lots of people play Faldingworth without using a microphone.

The villan does his best - show some respect.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:04 PM

"folk djs are fervently traddy" - you jest. Not what I was going to post about but my jaw just dropped when I saw the assertion.

The irony of this is that while I like folk music (or traditional accompanied and unaccompanied English folk song, to avoid having another definitions argument) I also like a load of other stuff, and I'm not actually a hard core traddy. Stuff I play (and sometimes play in folk clubs)includes

Play with Fire (Stones)
Substitute (Who)
Shooting Star (Bad Company)
Signed DC (Love)
Love has no pride (I forget the author, but the Bonnie Raitt version is well known)
I washed my hands in muddy water
This train
Tom Dooley
Worried man blues
St James Infirmary

and I'm working on a couple of Doors songs. Hate the Beatles though.

None of these are "folk" but I mention it to clarify what I actually do do.

What I do oppose however is:
These and other non-folk songs (and cuckoos from other traditions)being permitted to oust (English) folk song in and from England;
Folk song beng taken away from the people by arbiters of standards and taste;
Folk song becoming a product purveyed by the inner circle to humble acolytes who merely listen (and hence electric setups, unless you want something that can only be done with electrics, but even then it has IMHO to be done at the same sound pressure as acoustic instruments, otherwise you exclude acoustic instruments and voice).

I also object to the Irish and, worse, pretend-irish coming and singing with glee to me about killing (sometimes murdering) my countrymen past and present - would I survive if I took English military songs to a Dublin pub session?

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:32 PM

You can appose what the hell you like Richard, but please don't tell me what to do at my own club.

Have you got your own club Richard. If you have, I hope you make sure you do what you like to do.

I seriously do not know what your problem is Richard, but please stop running my club down. I have put a serious amount of very hard work into it, and I think you are being very insulting to everybody who plays or comes to listen.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:35 PM

Also,Richard how dare you talk about my club like you are when you haven't even been to it, and therfore have no idea what you are talking about.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:04 PM

Villan, my previous post was not specifically about your club, unless the hat fits.

When you started your club, I sought to find out your policy. It was one of exclusion. What I was told persuaded me not to go, so I haven't been. You asked - I told you straight. If you don't want an answer, don't ask. It's also one of the reasons I don't go to another club, this one not far from me.

Yes, I've co-run a club. It wasn't bad until after a dive in attendance (which frankly followed a change in venue) a certain committee member tried to say that it shouldn't have folk music or be called a folk club, and started his competing club (which didn't survive) about 400 yards away. I brokered the re-union of the three Maidstone clubs (including that one) into one club the successor to which still runs (although there is now a competitor club as well) - and resigned. I can live without the politics, and the modernists rubbishing folk music.

I've also run sessions. The sessions were pretty successful. People seemed to like them. I couldn't be arsed so I stopped.

It's not a matter of bragging. You asked, so I answered.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:19 PM

I didn't ask you to comment in the first place but you did. I only knew about your uncalled for comments about my club re your post 17th April 6:26 pm, becuase somebody else alerted me to it.
I will stop posting now as I see no further purpose in dealing with you now or in the future.

All I would say say, is that I wouldn't dream of making adverse comments in public about your singing whether I had heard you or not. As it is, I will chosse never to listen.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:36 PM

Uncalled for? Quoth the Villan, 29th February 2004

"From my point of view, its seems pretty pointless giving somebody the floor, who is not a competent singer. The songs they sing are not the important issue. You can't like all the songs or styles. But to me a bad voice is going to turn away new members.

I have already made a link with the local school to accomodate very good singers (youngsters) who will want to sing at the club. I would like to give at least one floor spot each evening for such a singer. I have been promised that if any of these youngsters come along, that they will have good voices and will therefore be worth listening to.

Anybody who has offered their services so far have a good track record. To me recomendation is critical. I would rather turn somebody down than be embarrassed or they be embarrassed. I dont'mean that in a nasty way at all."

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:44 PM

19th March 2004

"If I allowed somebody to perform, who quite clearly was awful, what is that going to do to the Listeners?"

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:53 PM

To be fair, however, the Villan disavows auditions

here

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:54 PM

Although I am becoming alarmed at my increasing resemblance to the Shambles....

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:12 PM

They are the people who have come into our singaround thing and told us what songs we should sing and what we should and shouldn't do. It's a one way thing too - we always make them welcome.
Hey How are you Nick?
Hope to be around Flaxton way IN may hope you still the open warm welcoming and freindly club we know and love of old.
Will be just 2 of us this time guitar and whistle duo LOL.
Seriously just skimming this thread and got good memories of your lovely club/group thank you for letting us play in the past and looking forward to hearing that fantastic breathtaking harmony once more.
I would just like to say that Villan runs a great club there for those that like a variety of music of the acoustic kinds.
I have had the honour of being allowed to play there and he is doing a great job bringing on newbies like me and plenty of others and letting them develop and see where they want to be going.
He also has some great guests there and is always well worth the three quid to get in on the friday evening.
Those who dont like concert style clubs go to another sort and enjoy yourselves.
Villan does control who plays at his club.
He also does most of the bloody hard work and it his reputation and his money that keep it going.
WHo else would you expect to have the decision over which artiste is good enough or of the right traditon to fit in with the over feel of each evening?
As far as I know V doesnt play and I know he refuses to sing but he has done as much for music of the types I love to hear in this area as anyone of those that do perform.
He and I do not always see eye to eye on things but I say he is a bloody good bloke and the music scene around here would be very much the poorer for audience and performers if he were not around.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:04 AM

OK richard it seems that the powers that be, consider your attack on my club is perfrectly OK in public. So whats good for the goose ......

Firstly the policy of Faldingworth Live is as follows, and has been agreed by the committee.

Faldingworth Live is a concert style club. It is not a membership club and is non profit making. The purpose is to promote and platform singers & musicians in concert style. All performers must be capable of performing in front of a live audience for a minimum of 25 minutes in one go.

Quote from Richard
Although I am becoming alarmed at my increasing resemblance to the Shambles....
Unquote

Don't know about shambles, you are an arshole of the highest degree. I really don't see what the F*** its got to do with you, so kindly keep your fu***** nose out of our affairs.

If you don't like how the club is run, then fine, go to somewhere you like, but stop being an arsehole by slagging off my club in public.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tootler at his sister's
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 03:54 AM

I think this thread would be much improved if Richard Bridge and the Villan conducted their row via PM rather than public forum. Their contributions to this thread do neither credit.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:01 AM

I didn't start it Tootler, and I never asked Richard to comment on my club, but he did and without my prior knowledge.
I have no reason to conduct a PM conversation with him, as he chose not to do that in the first place with me.
If he wants flame and the mudcat moderators see fit to allow that, then I will do the same to him.
I wouldn't have even looked at this thread if I hadn't been notified of his comments from soembody else.
Sorry for intruding on this thread as it has nowt to do with my club Tootler, but Richard seems to think it has.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:27 AM

It isn't a flame. It never was. The question arose - I didn't raise it - of whether there had ever been clubs that required floor singers to audition before being allowed to play. As far as I know that was and remains Villan's club's policy. My recollection of my investigations at the time it started is that I asked that, and was told that. I so, here, reported. Nothing rude about my remarks. No flaming.

Villan says he never said that and that anyone is welcome - but the quotes I have found so far (and I'm not going to waste any more time on it) indicate a determination to be selective in what he permits at his place of entertainment. His call. It may be a very nice concert venue, but it makes it not (IMHO) a "folk club" and not a place for me to shortlist to visit, when my preference is to turn up unannounced, and join in and sing a few things.

The thread is entirely about what is acceptable at a folk club "open mic" and what isn't. My (relevant, it might seem) views are: -

1.    Mic=not a folk club.
2.    Auditions=unacceptable.
3.    Restricting joining in - undesirable.
4.    I also find the endless Irish and sham-irish glorification of the deaths of the English unmannerly. I wouldn't say it of them, why should they say it of me?

I didn't start the F-ing and blinding here. I dealt with the core subject of the thread and a question expressed on it.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:41 AM

Richard, again in fairness to Villan (I've started so I'll finish), he has explained that he's deliberately changed the name of his event so that neither the words folk nor club appear in it. He does not call it an open mic either, so to use Faldingworth Live as an example of a 'folk club open mic' (as defined in the opening post) which auditions, was not really fair.

You did say: "Yes. I can name a folk club that asked for auditions. I can name two, and there may have been more. THe Mucky Duck - Chester - late 60s early 70s. Its ads said ring for a floor spot. I did. They asked me to audition and said it was policy. Second, that place slightly north of London (plainly not a "folk club") that the Villan runs and Breezy attends glories in selecting floor singers."

Perhaps on reflection you can see why Villan feels a agrieved.

Posting here hoping that this will avoid any need for further escalation on both sides, because there have been some very useful comments here and it would be good if we could continue with an interesting discussion.

Love and peace

Tom

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:58 AM

Tom
I will not escalate this any further. Your comments make it very clear why I feel agrieved. However you seem to have very nicely corrected the injustice about my club and I will consequenlty refrain from making any further comments about Richard. I just hope he will do the same about my club.
Many thanks
Les Worrall

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 05:29 AM

Richard
Faldingworth live is an event like going to the theatre or the cinema.
I also like the way of doing things you describe of turning up on spec and having a play and a listen.
But surely there is room for both ?
I know that if I have the good fortune to have a friday evening not at work I can look on the Faldingworth Live web Diary and see who is playing and decide whether on ballance it is the sort of band of merry fellows i would find to my taste musically and then decide if I want to go.
I can also find out as wioth Staithes music weekend that there is a planned gathering of lots of "folkies" who are gonna meet up in a nice place with good beer and scenery and play/listen to each other making music,both great and the sort I try to do.
From reading you rposts and with no O levels to my name it seems you are confused over what is on offer at Faldingworth live and sing arounds as we call them around here.
Is all abit daft as I know V is doing his bit for muisc locally and am sure you must be as well.
Is just different ways to the same end surely?

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 09:22 AM

'Faldingworth Live' is neither a Folk Club, nor an Open Mic.

It's a venue where performers can perform sets rather than just odd songs, in a concert venue, thereby gaining experience of performing in that format.

As it's a concert-type venue, there is no opportunity for 'spur-of-the-moment' appearances by visitors. All performers, whether paid or unpaid, are 'booked'.

I personally have no problem with booking a 'spot' ahead of the gig, having worked in bands for 40-odd years I'm well used to being 'booked' - again it's an experience that performers can gain and use positively.

Use of the PA is optional (the sound-guy and gal are exceptionally good, musicians themselves, and work very symapthetically with artists of all genres).

'Faldingworth Live' does not, strictly speaking, qualify for discussion on this thread because it does not fall into the categories indicated in the Subject line. It is a successful venue, and personal attacks on the organiser simply because his style doesn't match someone else's standards are unworthy in the extreme. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to walk the other way.

I've been an occasional attendee of Faldingworth, mostly as a performer but sometimes as audience, since its inception, and I've never been aware of artists being 'auditioned'. But FWIW, and IMHO as one who HAS been auditioned many times elsewhere, auditions should be regarded by a performer as a positive experience. Even if the auditionee fails the 'test' there are positives to be gained from failure. Been there, done that, worn the T-shirt out.

Now can we quit the shit-slinging, and get back to discussing the Subject In Hand?

S:0)

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,guest Tony from the duo No Fixed Abode
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:03 AM

Hi Villan,
          In the big scheme of life all we can offer is our support for your club and a big thanks to the 60 people who came and listened last Friday. Faldingworth may not be some peoples definition of a folk club but I guess there are many folk club organisers who would love to see 60 people at there club!!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: pirandello
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:29 AM

Thanks Richard and Villan for bringing a nasty taste to my thread. Please take your stupid row elsewhere.
Ta.

Andrew

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:33 AM

Dude, you asked what was acceptable. I told you. If you don't want to know, don't ask.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: pirandello
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:37 AM

Yes, you did and thank you for that. I don't recall asking for a public slanging match.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Scoville
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:41 AM

You'll soon find it generally comes free and unsolicited around here.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:52 AM

Any old shite - that's why I no longer go to them.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:52 AM

100

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:00 PM

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:07 PM

I was lost for words

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:14 PM

What I meant to say was that the online debate about 'Faldingworth Live sounds more fun that the actual live venue. Get a life and accept everyone deserves credit for their efforts. (if only once)