What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?

Subject: What is acceptable...?
From: pirandello
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:41 AM

...in terms of material at your average (if there is such a thing) folk club open mic. The music we play in my duo varies tremendously in scope and origin; for example Bluegrass, English contemporary folk, Irish trad tunes etc.
Has anyone ever encountered real opposition from purists regarding their shows or others, irrespective of how well the performance was given?

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:34 AM

Oh too true, when I lived in Oxford many years ago a good few of the club organisers distinctly frowned on anyone who didn't have a digit firmly stuck in the aural orifice and one or two frowned on instruments of any description

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: GUEST,John Robinson
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:36 AM

Yes!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:47 AM

What I personally like is musical taste and enthusiasm. Folk music should be ever evolving and don't let anyone tell anyone otherwise. If the audience likes what they hear then that's what counts. If the purists don't like it - well that's their friggin problem -they can plug their ears and stick their feet in the mud.                                             .

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: mandotim
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:51 AM

As someone with a fairly eclectic repertoire; yes, this is a regular occurrence. Includes a recent session encounter with a bodhran player who took me to task in a very public way, and reckoned I should play slower 'because he had played with Ewan MacColl'. I wouldn't mind, but I was playing a couple of Irish polkas at a lively but still danceable speed (think Planxty), and I'm not sure what MacColl had to do with Irish music anyway. Bluegrass jams can be a bit prone to the 'that ain't the way Earl/Bill woulda done it' syndrome, and some singaround crowds (usually friends who've been meeting for years) look at you funny if you play an instrument and sing at the same time.
Luckily, I play in a great session at the Wilkes Head in Leek, Staffs where just about anything goes; two kinds of music are played. Good and bad, and bad is ok as long as it's played with passion and soul. Example; Purple Haze for ukulele and double bass duet!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:29 AM

Sadly , there are still a few people around who have the "I Dont Like It So Its Rubbish" attitude to music , but in my experience , most clubs cant afford to alienate ANY one ! So though a club may LEAN towards the tradition . or blues , or Whatever , simple economics mean that no one is excluded . The only proviso seems to be that the music should at least be worth listening to .

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: skipy
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:39 AM

Hi, leadfingers!
Skipy

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:41 AM

No.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: Trevor Thomas
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:43 AM

It depends on the club I suppose. Most audiences are quite open to different things if they're done well, and often quite tolerant and supportive even if they're not done well.

I wasn't around in the 60s, but from what I've heard it wasn't unusual to have people doing unaccompanied ballads, other people playing blues or ragtime, (Martin Carthy used to play Big Bill Broonzy for instance) and singer/songwriter types all to frequent the same club. Now you get places (sessions more than clubs, perhaps) where instruments are banned, and others where singing is banned. You get places where only Irish music is acceptable, or only English music is acceptable. You get 'old time' sessions where bluegrass is frowned on, and bluegrass sessions where 'old time' is frowned on.

When I was younger, I've been sneered at for playing an Irish tune in a bluegrass session, and sneered at more for playing a bluegrass tune in an Irish session.

However, I've seen an American bluegrass band playing a set of Irish tunes, and I've seen Irish fellers do American tunes, and nobody seemed to mind.

I'd suggest if it was an open mic (or open 'floor' for acoustic clubs), then I can't see anyone objecting to the sort of stuff you're suggesting, especially if you play it well. So long as you don't do something that goes on for twenty minutes, it'd be fine by me.

Bob Brozman says that the only reason musical 'genres' exist is because record companies invented them so they could organise their stock. Play whatever you like. Some people might not like certain things, but you can't like everything, can you?

I agree with Mandotim - as far as I'm concerned there's only really good and bad music. I play both kinds.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:04 PM

The best thing is to go along and listen first - and don't always expect to join in the first time you go.

I'm not sure you get much actual 'banning' in clubs or sessions these days. It may seem like banning if they're not encouraging you, but it pays to look further.

What you may have found is a group of people of like mind who've got together to do their particular thing - whatever that is. Remember that regular musical gatherings don't usually happen by accident. A group of enthusiasts will have started and maintained the night - often with huge amount of effort to keeping it going through lean times, so it's only reasonable that they should call the shots (if you don't like it you can always start up your own gathering)!

Ok, the event may be taking place in a public space, so one would hope they'll welcome newcomers and tolerate and even applaud an occasional foray into territory where they themselves might not choose to tread, but it's also only good manners for you to understand that they like things the way they are, and will probably - one would hope, again, politely - steer the music back to whatever it was that got them together in the first place.

If you look in the web and folk-mag listings for your area, there will often be a clue as to what various evenings are for: Trad song, bluegrass, Irish diddle, English, French, Chanteys, Shape Note... etc. If there isn't, then go along - and ask.

Could well turn out to be one of the many clubs and sessions where anything goes, in which case you'll be well away.

Have fun!

Tom

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: synbyn
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:28 PM

endorse your posting, Tom, above all the idea that one listens first to the general tenor of the evening- after all, one is joining a bunch of (one hopes)new friends, and they may have something fresh to offer.

At Nellies in Tonbridge we run a folk club where we would like to hear a variety of styles- each performer has a floor spot and there is no restriction on type of material- though in deference to our guests it ought to be listenable- after all, we don't want the audience disappearing before the hat take!

Most sessions in West Kent are similarly embracing- especially the Travelling Folk sessions which run fortnightly 1st & 3rd Thurs of the month at different venues- check the Beehive for current list.

Anyone nearby the Beacon, Rusthall, on 4th Mon of the month will find a similar welcome- it's good for our ears to be refreshed too...

Hope to see you
Bob

Subject: RE: What is acceptable...?
From: Nick
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:32 PM

Ahh, but you're not a FOLK musician. You are a non-defined hybrid. What are you doing in a FOLK club?

Purists are what keep folk clubs pure.

By definition they aren't concerned with acoustic clubs or singarounds or sessions or groups of people gettin-togethers or one of the other hybrid beasts that aren't folk clubs. You will know them when you meet them; they are the people that frown and tell you you are playing the wrong sort of music and then rush away to spawn loads of threads on Mudcat desperately trying to understand what folk music is and worry that it won't exist in the future.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:49 PM

How can "they" ban a performer before they hear him/her?

Seems to me that a prospective participant should have some idea of the "policy" or preferred style at a given venue, and also that any club or pub or whatever where some kind of restrictions are ienforced would advise performers up-front as to what might be expected of them.

Now, if you are advised after your moment in the spotlight that you won't be welcome again, perhaps you should take the stated reasons with a grain of salt. Whereas you might be told that your choice of material was inappropriate, maybe the real reason is simply that no one wants to endure your inept efforts ever again. In other words, maybe your critics are just trying to be kind and let you down easily.

If a first-time performer exhibits skill and musicality but is truly at odds with a venue's policy regarding musical genre, wouldn't they be asked if they had other material within the acceptable format, and perhaps be invited back if and only if they would be able to trot out a different bit of their repertoire in order to conform?

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:00 PM

No they don't ban you. they give your material that you have sweated blood over a frigid reception, and then laugh their bollocks off at someone reading The Molecatcher from an exercise book, and then getting all the funny lines wrong.

folkmusic clubs like this will live on unto eternity - the middle classes need them to prove to themselves they have a living tradition of being superior to the rest of us.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Marje
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:09 PM

It's not entirely clear whether the original question relates to the UK or the US (often the cause of much confusion on Mudcat).

I can't speak for the US, but I'd say that in the UK the organisers will usually make it clear what their general policy is (you can always ask them if it's not apparent to you). It's not necessarily a case of narrow-minded "purists" getting in the way of good music - some clubs activly encourage certain types of music, so everyone knows what they're getting and can go elsewhere if it's not what they're looking for.

If a club actually calls itself "open mic", that would suggest to me that most of the music will be instrumental or accompanied, with less audience participation than at a singaround style of club. You'd probably be fine there, whereas a solo unaccompanied singer might not be so comfortable. If on the other hand they say it's a song club, they'll be more keen on songs that people can join in with, and much of it may be unaccompanied - you might not fit in so well there. Visit the club and you'll soon be able to work it out.

Sessions are sometimes specific about the genre or origin of the music (eg only Irish, etc) but clubs are generally happy enough to welcome varied contributions - their main problem is not the choice of material but how to discourage the really bad performers. People who play as a duo have generally practised together and are thus good enough to entertain others (which is plainly not the case for all solo performers!), so I'd think the right sort of club would welcome you.

Marje

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:55 PM

Oh dear WeeLittleDrummer. It seems we were born on opposite sides of the tracks and so can never be friends! What on earth are we going to do at Belvoir if they put us on the same stage? I presume we'll have to have a battle of some kind.. How about we both come dressed in those huge foam costumes from It's a Knockout? I'll be Little Lord Fontleroy and you can be Arthur Mullard, and we'll cover the stage in fairy liquid, tie ourselves to the PA stacks with bungy ropes, and beat eachother over the head with massive rolled up copies of the Magna Carta. The first one to finish a song without playing a wrong note wins. What do you say?

Tom

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: pirandello
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM

Thanks for all your well considered responses and there's some food for thought there.
I'm in England (Devon) and am returning to acoustic music after a long sojourn in the Dark (electric) Side!
I've been playing for many, many years as a semi-pro so I work hard at producing a well-played and professional sounding act.
The reason I posed the question is that I have been used to rock/blues audiences who will accept pretty much anything you want to throw at them so long as the delivery is of a reasonable quality.
My live acoustic experience has been very limited since the folk boom of the sixties when I would inhabit Bunjies, The Troubadour, Les Cousins on a regular basis and I have a feeling that things have changed considerably since then!
Cheers
Andrew

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:06 PM

When you walk in Belvoir Castle you will see a hall full of muskets, and a wall of sabres set in perfect circular arrangements. They are the arms that the Duke provided for a regiment he raised in the 1800's to subdue the Irish (so the lady guide will tell you). Doubtless someone will be singing rebel ballads over the weekend.

Tom, we English can laugh at ourselves - otherwise you'd cry.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 03:18 PM

I would say that show tunes, sung in a Howard Keel type voice, never seem right - or go down very well - in a folk club. I have also heard people muttering in disapproval if a classical piece of music is played on the guitar.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: Ref
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:07 PM

"Open Mike" should mean just that, unless there's an obvious clue like the club being named "The Traditional Irish Instrumental Music ONLY Club." The rub comes in finding out what level of proficiency will be tolerated. Our local club (NH, US) allows just about anything, and those of us with standards just smile tightly and bear it. Heck, musicians have to start somewhere. A problem would arise if you've got microphone hoggers with no talent, or people who claim free admission as a "performer" because they read a couple of half-assed poems or tell some jokes they read on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:13 PM

Raggytash - in my student days, in Oxford long ago, I was responsible, for one term, for running the Heritage club at the (long demolished and redeveloped) Baker's Arms, Cardigan Street, Jericho. I don't think I was unkind to people with instruments or who didn't stick digits in aural orifices, but if I was, I apologise (it was a long time ago and I was too young to know better...)

Kitty

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:25 PM

"Open Mike" should mean just that, unless there's an obvious clue like the club being named "The Traditional Irish Instrumental Music ONLY Club."

that's exactly the sort of place you find people singing Johnny Cash songs!

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:48 PM

pretty much anything goes at our club-swing, folk, bit of jazz, Eagles anything as long as you don't plug it in and them that do we don't mind too much as long as it isn't to loud -the thing we dont like is if you are trying to get as many people on and its a full club night and someone decides to WAFFLE and introduce the song what it means to them how their granny cried when they first heard it, that is as collected from blah blah which in my book means it was on a CD they once hear and then after 3 minutes of blurb they finally sing and someone who you actually want to hear can,t get on because you run out of time--------now that annoys me!so cut out the long intros and we will love you forever.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Bert
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 07:42 PM

Ask.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 03:45 AM

I've posted this before in a similar thread, but.....

AS I WAS A-PRACTICING…                  Tune: 'Streets of Laredo'

As I was a-practicing 'Stairway to Heaven',
As I was a-practicing Zeppelin one day,
I turned up the volume to way past eleven,
Plugged in my old Fender and started to play.

Then forty bars in, I came to my senses,
Playing this stuff is a bit of a joke,
I ought to be out in a pub in the country,
I know I'll be happier playing some folk.

So I sold my electric and bought an acoustic,
Learned some new chords, C, G7, A,
I listened to records by Carthy and Swarbrick,
And found an old folk song I wanted to play.

So I learnt all the words of this famous old folk song,
All about fishermen out on the sea,
Then proudly I carried my nice new acoustic,
To a pub where the music was legendary.

I sat down by the fire with the rest of the players,
Suddenly everyone's glaring at me,
'You can't have that chair, it's reserved for old Charley,
He's sat there each night since 1903.'

So I sat down again at the end of the bar-room,
Waited my time to join in and play,
It got to my turn so I got up and started
My song about fishermen out in the bay.

I finished my song and I sat down to silence,
Somebody said, 'Can't you play it in A?
In the seventeenth verse you sang 'nets', we sing 'rigging',
And we play it slower 'cos we like it that way.'

And the chorus we play is a little bit different,
But ours is the right one, and yours is just wrong,
You can't come in here with your brand new acoustic,
And make such a mess of our favourite song.

Well I never went back to that pub in the country,
The pub where the music is precious and rare,
I found me a pub where there's squit on a Thursday,   
Where I can play rubbish, and I just don't care.


(In Suffolk, 'squit' = 'rubbish')

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 03:56 AM

If the questioner is talking about 'anything goes' clubs rather than policy clubs - fine - anything goes, as long as the performance is proficient and committed enough to their material.
Policy clubs are a different matter.
I get very tired of hearing performers whingeing about turning up to a club and being given the cold shoulder because their material doesn't fit in with club policy.
I often wonder who are the 'folk fascists' (well, I don't really); those people who run clubs to promote songs and music corresponding to their own tastes and ideas, or those who turn up and sing or play anything that suits their fancy, irrespective of the expectations of audience or organisers.
In my experience, too often, indifferent reaction to bad judgement (and quite often naff performance) is put down to intolerance on the part of the club rather than insensitivity and ineptitude on the part of the performer - or don't club organisers and regulars have any say in what goes on in their clubs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:21 AM

The one generalisation you can make about folk clubs is that they're all different. There are folk clubs that are happy with anything you play as long as you're not a horse. There are others where anything apart from unaccompanied traditional singing is treated coldly - and there are folk clubs where if you don't turn up with a guitar the organisers will assume you're 'just' a listener and will ignore you all night.

There is no 'standard format' to which you must sign up to be called a folk club. Remember that the organisers and regulars set up the club as a home for their tastes in music - they are entitled to run their club as they see fit. It seems the height of arrogance to say 'I'm going to sing whatever I like in your club and condemn you for intolerance if you don't like it'.

Most clubs I've been to welcome a fairly wide range of music, but there are exceptions - and not just on the 'pure tradition' side of the fence. Some club organisers share WLD's pathological hatred and contempt of anything not written in their own lifetimes. . . ;-}

Good advice above - listen, ask and, if you don't like a club's policy and can't persuade it to change - go elsewhere.

Andrew

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,banjoman
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:29 AM

There was one club in the 70's (no name no pack drill) who auditioned floor singers in the corridor outside before deciding to let them on.
I remember at Whitby in 1972? one Johnny Handel saying during a lecture he gave that if anyone wanted to play his appalachian dulcimer he was welcome to do so provided he went somewhere else to do it.
Clubs I have been involved in have thrived on a wide variety of music and abilities and thats what has always kept the interest going

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:04 AM

I think this where the Irish get it so right. Somehow they all know that the continuance of the tradition isn't down to some bloke doing a PhD somewhere - its that seamless eclecticism that they do so well.

You get a young girl singing in Irish and then she'll give just the same committment to song by Kris Kristoferson. You see it on Christy Moore records as well of course.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Nick
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:47 PM

I agree that there is intolerance on both/all sides but I'll give you one or two observations.

I always thought that I have liked and listened to folk music since the mid 60's and I have always thought that folk music encompassed all the sorts of stuff that I grew up with - Bert Jansch - John renborun - Roy Harper - Fairport - Steeleye Span - Davy Graham - Incedible String Band; as well as accompanied and unaccompanied traditional singing. I think there was a time when a lot of American singer songwriters would also have been seen as being part of the wide thing of 'folk' (Tom Paxton - Judy Collins - Joni Mitchell - perhaps James Taylor even).

But there is a group of people - some inhabit here, others I have met in person - who believe that my idea of folk is 'wrong' and that folk has a much narrower meaning but that also needs to be protected and kept pure.

They are the people who have come into our singaround thing and told us what songs we should sing and what we should and shouldn't do. It's a one way thing too - we always make them welcome.

It's a bit like the feeling you get when Jehovah's Witnesses come to your door - you either welcome it or not.

Having said that I am more than happy that people have their views as long as they don't stuff them down my throat. If I go and sing or play anywhere I try to fit in with the rules of the place I go to because I believe that is manners. If the place doesn't suit my tastes I don't return rather than believing I have a missionary zeal to change it. Different strokes for different folks (no pun intended).

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: cptsnapper
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:50 PM

One of the things I enjoy about sessions, or even more formal settings, is the sort of atmosphere where you find that people have to be forced to go home at the end of the event because they're so busy talking to each other. Let's not forget that song & music are ways of connecting with each other & some will respond to certain things but not others. So really I'm pretty tolerant as long as whatever is sung and or played contributes to an overall feeling of wellbeing. It would be a shame if people went home feeling that they'd heard some good music - however defined - but ended up feeling lonely & left out of things. Because we all lose if that happens.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:52 PM

1). Phone Ahead.
2). Ask what the club's preferred format might be.
3). Tell the person on the other end of the line what it is that YOU do.
4). If he says "Come along, you'll be welcome", you go.
5). If he sounds dubious, thank him politely for his time, and check out the next club on your list.

After all, if you go to a club where they won't like your act, you aren't going to enjoy it, so, unless you're a masochist, why bother?

It's worked for me for 47 years, and I only got it wrong twice, but that's two other stories.

Good luck
Don T.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM

Kitty

I occasionally frequented the Baker's in Jericho 1980-82 when I was a student up there, it was more out in the "sticks" Kirklington and beyond as well as Oxford centre. I cannot recall after all these years the names of the clubs or pubs, but if you were one of the guilty ....you're forgiven ....(provided I get a big cuddle next time you're in Whitby)

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:58 PM

P.S. All the clubs I have been involved in as an organiser have welcomed absolutely everyone, but you do have to respect the fact that different people have different ideas (a club based entirely on acapella, or a group specialising in "Childe Ballads, for example).

DT

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 04:30 PM

No, it is not a wide variety of music that kept the clubs going; just the opposite, it is a non-definition of music at 'folk' clubs that drove audiences away in their thousands.
People choose very carefully what music they want to listen to - at least those with discrimination and a real interest in music do.
Crane driver is right when he suggests "if you don't like a club's policy and can't persuade it to change - go elsewhere".
Toleration has nothing to do with the running of clubs. People have the right to set up any type of music venue they wish, and in doing so they make up their own rules and limits as to what goes on there, and audiences attend or not on the basis of those decisions.
The problems arise when they attached labels to their clubs which simply don't stand scrutiny.
As far as I'm concerned; "Bert Jansch - John renborun - Roy Harper - Fairport - Steeleye Span - Davy Graham - Incedible String Band; (Tom Paxton - Judy Collins - Joni Mitchell - perhaps James Taylor even)" do not fall within my definition of 'folk' and I really wouldn't bother to drag myself out to attend a club whose policy incorporated any of them. If my opinion is wrong I would like to hear an accepted definition that does include these names - (please - if we continue to flog the 'talking horse' bit someone is sure to call the RSPCA. I'm convinced that it is always given the 'anon' label because no self-respecting individual would ever own up to having said something so crass!)_
The urban legend about the club that held auditions for floor-singers is, I am convinced, a result of somebody's feverish imagination. No club I know has ever had such a policy, nobody has ever been able to name the alleged club, and no performer I know would ever subject themself to such an indignity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:01 PM

Its the kind of music you hear in anyone of the half dozen folk clubs that running tonight round here.

You may be the expert of what folk music should be Jim.

Reality imposes its own discipline.

Ignore it, and you're in the same situation as the Yanks are with their gun law. You can see it causes them real anguish - it really offends their cultural values - but 30 thousand dead people a year who would otherwise be alive is a disaster.

The music you are dismissing is the acoustic music ordinary pople have taken to their hearts. A folkmusic without the generality of the folk is a pretty sad prospect.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:34 PM

O-p-e-n M-i-c as Ref says means "open mic" and implies just that. I have seen ads that state acoustic instruments only. Have yet to see any restrictions as to what kind of songs will be played. I do less OM's these days but try to check out the venue before jumping into a bad scene.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:54 PM

Raggytash

I ran a "folk clubs reunited" session at Sidmouth festival a few years ago, on the Monday night (in a marquee in the garden of the Volunteer), for people to come and enjoy as a general sing or to meet up with people they used to know at their folk club, particularly if it ran on a Monday night.

I suggested the reunion session to the management after I'd been to a party on the festival campsite the year before, and had sung "Ask the old barman to pour me another, me throat is fair bleeding for want of a wet, and the good resolutions I made to my mother are the good resolutions I drink to forget." Pete Luscombe (Portsmouth Shantymen, Ramskyte, Wholehearted, father of Becky Luscombe) confessed to me that he too had been a President of Heritage.

We had a great night at the Volunteer because there have been loads of good Monday night clubs. Including the Portsmouth club, which was celebrating its last night at the Railway, minus Pete Luscombe and Brian Ingham because they were in Sidmouth. And we reunited Mike of Northumbria and McGrath of Harlow, who hadn't seen each other since one of them got married.

We also had Mary Humphreys reminding us of great Monday night sessions in Manchester,

Kitty

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:26 PM

Yes. I can name a folk club that asked for auditions. I can name two, and there may have been more. THe Mucky Duck - Chester - late 60s early 70s. Its ads said ring for a floor spot. I did. They asked me to audition and said it was policy. Second, that place slightly north of London (plainly not a "folk club") that the Villan runs and Breezy attends glories in selecting floor singers.

Likewise, GUEST (why are they always in capitals?) since "folk" has the 1954 definition, although both Fairport and Steeleye used amplifiers and altered arrangements, and wrote contemporary songs, they were also "folk" performers by definition.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Nick
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:50 PM

>>No, it is not a wide variety of music that kept the clubs going; just the opposite, it is a non-definition of music at 'folk' clubs that drove audiences away in their thousands.

I'm 52, Jim and come from a distantly musical family but not an obviously passed down folk tradition (my grandfather and relatives were Scottish singers and teachers of music and a great or great great uncle (fine baritone voice) recorded hundreds of records between the 20s and 50s and apparently wrote a song for Vera Lynn that she recorded but I have never met or known any of them).

I never came across a proper folk club until I went to university where I saw the people I quoted amongst many others - many of whom, like Wizz Jones or John Martyn or Linda and Richard Thompson or Derek Brimstone or Jeremy Taylor or Allan Taylor etc etc still play and are accepted in some folk clubs. Before I went to university I listened to a load of the people I mentiond before and many others.

I was one of those people who went to folk clubs but I guess it must have been after the thousands disappeared because this is the sort of idea of folk that many people who didn't grow up in a different sort of world think folk is.

That I'm wrong or right matters not a jot, but a few people of a similar age to me may have a similarish view and some of them still go to folk clubs and some of them don't. Most probably go and watch something else (Beautiful South? Shania Twain? James Blunt? Opera? Whatever)

>>People choose very carefully what music they want to listen to - at least those with discrimination and a real interest in music do.
Crane driver is right when he suggests "if you don't like a club's policy and can't persuade it to change - go elsewhere".

I agree with the first bit and the end bit - why the "and can't persuade it to change"? Every now and again a friend of ours comes down and plays a nice pop tune and says 'Why don't we have a sixties night one night?' and we smile and say "Fantastic. You organise it any other night than xxxxday"

>>Toleration has nothing to do with the running of clubs. People have the right to set up any type of music venue they wish, and in doing so they make up their own rules and limits as to what goes on there, and audiences attend or not on the basis of those decisions.

Agree with you totally. Presumably it was the inability of folk club organisers to understand this that messed things up and drove people away.

>>The problems arise when they attached labels to their clubs which simply don't stand scrutiny.
As far as I'm concerned; "Bert Jansch - John renborun - Roy Harper - Fairport - Steeleye Span - Davy Graham - Incedible String Band; (Tom Paxton - Judy Collins - Joni Mitchell - perhaps James Taylor even)" do not fall within my definition of 'folk' and I really wouldn't bother to drag myself out to attend a club whose policy incorporated any of them.

I live in North Yorkshire and there is the Black Swan Folk Club in York who do a fine job and have a web site where you can see what they put on. There is a folk club in Thirsk where people come and sing. There is a folk club in Harrogate which survives still though after a few changes chronicled on mudcat. Beverley has a folk festival and various folk things going on. Driffield a bit. Whitby has a range of things. Richmond has a club that I have meant to get to but not quite. There are weekends in Staithes (great fun) and is/was a Mudcat gathering nr Selby which I have been to for the last couple of years but may be struggling this year. I get to Mickleby occasionally. There are others within 30 mlies of me but not many that meet that regularly.

The common denominator in most of these is that they are reasonably broad church rather than narrow and constantly strive to balance their programmes to try to attract people.

Where we play we meet every week and care less about what we are defined as more about what we want to do and bring to the table. People sing and play and do what they can and I always thought that was something about what it was all about. Perhaps they all have to write their own material or bring curiously local songs handed down to make it ok.

I went to the Dolphin in Whitby week the other year and struggled. I went invited by friends who are very into the tradition and wanted to enjoy myself but found it so hard listening to the songs which often had no tune and no discernible rhythm delivered (to the best of ability I'm sure) in little voices. The less the tune, the less the performance the more the applause. So I'm sorry I don't understand that - I have tried. (Similarly I got to the limits of my jazz with Ornette Coleman and Pharaoh Saunders at their most extreme). It's the pure 'proper' bit of folk that I have trouble with sometimes but do realise it informs, underpins and oils the wheels of the stuff I like. One day I may understand it.

Weirdly one of the people I went with (who loves and understands the traditions and songs and performances and ambience etc and has had the Cecil Sharp visits, the Tap and Spile in Whitby where you get a go every three days etc) had never sang in public before she came to sing with us because she wasn't good enough - noone knew she could sing. Thank goodness she does now - what a waste of years

>>and I really wouldn't bother to drag myself out

Then don't. As an aside - even though they may not be folk musicians - some of them are really quite good. If they are some of the people that kept the people away in their thousands and destroyed folk music then there is less hope for me than I thought when I started writing

>>If my opinion is wrong I would like to hear an accepted definition that does include these names - (please - if we continue to flog the 'talking horse' bit someone is sure to call the RSPCA. I'm convinced that it is always given the 'anon' label because no self-respecting individual would ever own up to having said something so crass!)

Jim - I genuinely hope you define it so that the thousands can come back. There is no sarcasm at all meant in that.

If you are ever in North Yorkshire PM me and come and have a sing or a play or recitation or whatever you care to contribute. Accept us for what we are; try and change us if you care to; then either come back and do it again or don't dependent on what you find. But you would be welcome as would anyone else who ever cares to do something in this ill-defined folk thing. We enjoy ourselves and smile every week and look forward to the next.

Every Wednesday we get together and sing and play, do poems or whatever. We make a hell of a noise when we chorus songs together (unaccompanied folk songs!!). Listen when people sing quietly. Encourage the person who has never tried but always wanted to. It probably isn't folk but it feels a bit like it.

Be happy

Nick
Flaxton_and_ex-Farlington_Singaround_and_Session_thing_that_encourages_people_to_come_and_be_a_part_of_an_ill_defined_thing_that_continues_to_grow_inspite_of_it_being undefinedish.com

PS Not a folk plug but I'm playing in round 2 of Battle of the Bands in York at the Junction tonight so do come and support. Older than the rest of the band put together and still loving it. :)

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:57 PM

Que?

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Nick
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:11 PM

Richard

Perhaps I ought to drink less and post more as GUEST

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)..
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:27 AM

Nick,
I'm 66 and have been involved in 'folk music' since my early twenties.
I'm pretty sure I know what 'folk music' is - it's the music and song that drew me into the clubs way back when. Without re-opening the 'definition' argument, (plenty of threads on this forum for that) if I ever forget what it is, I can always go to my bookshelf and refresh my memory from the many hundreds of books there.
My taste and interest in music is fairly catholic; I love jazz and blues and some classics, I regularly listen to Sinatra and Peggy Lee and I have a sneaky regard for some early C&W (nostalgia rather than taste).
I have no interest whatsoever in pop music - it leaves me stone cold (and has done since the early sixties - when The Beatles and football were instrumental in driving me from my home city of Liverpool).
I, like everybody else I know, pigeonholes their tastes. If I want to listen to chamber music, that's what goes on the player, similarly with any other category of music. In the old days back home, I would go to The Cavern (a jazz club then) for my jazz, to the top floor of Sampson and Barlow's for my C&W and to the middle floor of the same establishment or to Gregson's Well for my folk.
When I went out at night, I knew precisely what I would hear, and I could tailor my evenings to suit my moods and inclinations.
That is still the case with Jazz, C&W, Blues and classical music, but it has long ceased to be so with folk music.
I and ( I am convinced) thousands like me ceased to attend 'folk' clubs when they became the dumping grounds for any category of song and music it suited people to attach with the label 'folk', usually for personal convenience rather than misunderstanding and ignorance.
I often used to wonder how an audience for (say) classical music that had turned up for a concert, would react if they were presented with Tommy Peoples - long queues at the box office for their money back, and rapidly dwindling audience if the practice was repeated.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM

I really do respect you Jim, and your committment to your vision of folk music, which many if not all your contributions are about.

however this bit:-
I often used to wonder how an audience for (say) classical music that had turned up for a concert, would react if they were presented with Tommy Peoples - long queues at the box office for their money back, and rapidly dwindling audience if the practice was repeated.

it really is a bit disingenuous - as it presupposes that there are a vast of army of frustrated folk fans who hunger and thirst for the spirit of Cecilia Costello, Tommy Peoples, et al to be there in the clubs.

I just know that this is so far from the sensibility of most modern people, and I think bottom line - you damn well know it too!

The awful fact is that the big emptying of the folk clubs took place in the late 60's early 70's when so many people were performing traditional material without the skill to make it palatable - if indeed such a skill exists. I have yet to be completely convinced.

I used to give guitar lessons. I persuaded this lady pupil to go to a folk club, and she took a group of her friends from work to go and see a folk performer I had recommended - as he was and is a marvellous musician. It was a disaster.

Its the earnestness, the Cromwellian zeal that defeats most modern listeners - that and the deliberate rejection of 20th century musical idioms of rhythm, style and pronunciation.

people are always telling me I talk rubbish on this site. at least its rubbish, I've arrived at from my own experience - rather than that shelf full of books.

Kind regards.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:47 PM

Just an observation: I often hear people attending classical concerts complain about modern composers like Schönberg etc., and many jazz fans don`t like dixieland - so this doesn`t seem to be something special to folk/folkies. So everywhere there seem to be people who complain about things being too modern (like Jim?) or too old fasioned (like WLD?). Seems there is no help at all...

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

Jim and I are both on the same side - we both want to see folk clubs - plenty of places for folksingers to work, and develop their skills.

Jim thinks we need to hold hard to our national identity. I think we need to hold onto an audience that has buggered off already.

I think maybe we are both doomed to disappointment.

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Marje
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM

At classical concerts, they somtimes adopt the "classical sandwich" approach - you start and finish the concert with well-loved pieces and put something new and unfamiliar in the middle. The audience may find they like it more than they expected (in my observation, they may choose this point to have a nap, but perhaps I shouldn't generalise from what I've seen in Worthing on a Sunday afternoon).

I would like to say how this could be applied in folk, but I'm struggling. I suppose individual artists/bands can and do try similar strategies, but in a mixed folk concert, people will just get up and wander off to the bar (or leave for good in a festival with season tickets) if they think they're not going to enjoy it.

For me, one of the nice things about festivals with season tickets is that I can get a taster of new artists and types of music without committing to a whole evening of them. It's more difficult for clubs to make this sort of things possible, although there are possibilities - theme nights, nights where good regular floor singers do extended spots, etc.

Clubs can still make it clear what kind of music they're about, and yet be a bit imaginative in the way they run the evening, not just offering the same floor singers doing the same old songs every week or month.

Marje

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:19 PM

Most of the open mic's that I've been to have been pretty eclectic. At the one that I currently host we have a woman who comes in each week and plays Buddy Holly tunes on a pennywhistle. A couple of months ago we had a guy who played "Blue Monk" on an accordian. We have a fellow who comes in, from time to time, who just brings a pair of drumsticks. he lines up chairs, tables, music stands, and anything else he can find and creates rhythm for fifteen minutes. If an open mic is working properly all styles of music are welcome.

Stephen Lee Rich

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: goodbar
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 01:58 AM

play whatever the hell you want. seriously, who the **** cares?

Subject: RE: What is acceptable (at a folk club open mic)...?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 06:04 AM

I have been interested in Folk Music for 40 years now. In all that time I have only known two people who have actually been banned from folk clubs (as opposed to not receiving an enthusiastic reception - which, I suspect, many people on this and similar threads interpret as being 'banned'). One of these two people was banned because (a) he was disruptive and (b) a really bad singer. The other person was banned because he was a really, really, really bad singer. Interestingly, they both chose to sing very, very long songs (no, not traditional ballads) and their floor spots therefore seemed interminable - there's a lesson there for us all!