BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 04:58 PM

It's too easy to get guns. There ought to be more restrictions on the purchase of firearms.
A person ought to prove his mental competency to own them. I'm sure it was fairly easy for the young student to acquire his weapon.

Some of the arguments presented in favor of unlimited control of firearms makes me wonder about those arguers' mental competency. When the NRA is criticized, the defenders begin to sound like angry hornets. Why should anyone doubt those with their anger showing under certain circumstances wouldn't use a gun irresponsibly?

BB you polluted the argument by bringing in the ACLU which has probably defended gun-owners in the past.

There is a sensible approach to all of this that has to do with diffusing the anger on this issue. This is an issue regarding the ownership of guns and who should be able to have them. Until this issue is solved, the Center for Disease Control will continue to cite gun violence as one of the leading health problems in the US.

So to all of you hot heads who are so angy about your guns being taken away, your anger undercuts your argument.

For those with cooler minds and logical thinking, who should have guns and who shouldn't could be given more serious thought.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Slag
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 04:59 PM

Yup Cap'n Ginger, 4000 miles of cold Atlantic Ocean. That's the same Atlantic that our gun toting GIs had to cross to save your bloody asses from the peaceful and loving appeasement which good old Neville Chamberlain negotiated with Adolf. The same ocean that more than a million NRA donated rifles crossed to provide means for a homeland defense for you peace loving English folks. Your time's coming because you have NOT learned from your past.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 04:59 PM

"I do like to think that I have the right not to remain silent."

Actually, what you advocate is a situation where the government CAN force you to remain silent.

Or give up any other right that the Powers That Be decide are a threat to "the public good" as defined by the Powers That Be.

But if you want that, feel free to argue with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:01 PM

"BB you polluted the argument by bringing in the ACLU which has probably defended gun-owners in the past."

Please look up "sarcasm".

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:02 PM

Er, Slag, you missed out the bit about speaking German!
And isn't it customary to say 'save your sorry asses' when talking about how the US won Dubya Dubya Two without any help from those goddam Commies?
Now trot off and play with your toys, there's a love.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:06 PM

I fail to see how fighting with each other will get any questions answered.

That aside, I goddamned guarantee you this: Give me a thousand in cash--coin of the realm--and I could go into any large city in North America and acquire a handgun or rifle within 12 hours. The legalityillegality of guns is a farce. If I needed a piece I would get one. It's that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:08 PM

I'm amazed how ballistic the debate can get when I leave for a couple of hours.

This time I don't think I'll even bother to return.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:08 PM

The USA entered the war because the Japs bombed your fleet at Pearl harbour, not to do us any special favours.

You'd probably still be doing target practice otherwise.

Sorry to defile such a thread, but you have no right to insult our country - just because you can't face the fact that allowing any idiot to buy a gun is not a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:12 PM

"Give me a thousand in cash--coin of the realm--and I could go into any large city in North America and acquire a handgun or rifle within 12 hours. The legalityillegality of guns is a farce."


1. I agree with you. So why shgould more ineffective laws be of any use, except to disarm the law-abiding citizen?

2. Name a single country that the statement would NOT be true. Those with more restrictive laws like Russia, England, and others still have gun violence.

3. Look at the countries with a requirement for fully automatic weapons in the home ( Israel, Switerland). Is there more or less crime there than in the restricted nation, like Russia?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:15 PM

very true Bruce, but a proper legal framework to control the ownership and use of firearms would create a less macho mindset in a large section of the American public, as well as placing guns in their true context...
Glad to see you still here.....best wishes A

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:17 PM

The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training and a mandatory period of service in the Rekrutenschule (the "recruits-school"), the initial boot camp, after which Swiss men still remain part of the militia either in a home guard or reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers). Each such individual keeps his army-issued personal weapon (the Sig 550 5.56x45 mm assault rifle for enlisted personnel, and/or the SIG-Sauer P220 9 mm semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home with a specified quantity of government-issued ammunition (50 rounds 5.6 mm / 48 rounds 9mm), sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unlawful use takes place. The emergency ammunition is the only ammunition that requires accounting for during inspections.[1]

From Wiki

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:20 PM

As would the control of freedom of speech to prevent inciting unrest, the prevention of public gatherings, and the restriction of religion to ones that the Powers That Be can depend on for support.

But I do NOT advocate the removal of basic rights for the appearance of safety, especially when the laws to be inacted have been shown, repeatedly, to not be effective in reducing crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:23 PM

OK, we can prohibit women from gun ownership. After all, why should theyhave any means to defend themselves? We can always trust the police to be right there to protect us.

( SARCASM: Please note the recent murders of women by men who have court orders against them, yet then pour flammable liquid on the woman and set them on fire.)

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:25 PM

OH fuck what's the point!!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:35 PM

If most Americans do actually want to have gun ownership as a legal right, that's their business. What strikes me as strange is a situation where this is seen as a constitutional right, rather than as a matter to be determined on a democratic basis of what most people actually want.

That doesn't really seem too democratic, especially since the amendment involved is so very strangely worded, with that "properly regulated militia" qualification hanging in the air.

In the list of important things to have, guns seem pretty low in the list. And yet all the other things - mobile phones, computes, cars. jobs, health care - are left to sink or swim on their own, without any constitutional amendments.

Is there another country in the world where there is this kind of special preserved protection for guns? Plenty of places where gun ownership is relatively easy, but that's another matter entirely. If the Swiss decided it might be a good idea to change their law they'd just have a referendum to determine whether to do so or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:37 PM

So, why does the USA have the highest rate (per capita and absolute) of gun violence of any industrialized nation?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:37 PM

TAKE IT TO THE GUN CRIME THREAD, PLEASE!

Let's keep this as a condolence thread. Do your debating in the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:41 PM

A condolence/obit thread has been started kat.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:43 PM

Darn, I thought this was the 'let's poke pointy sticks at the funny rednecks' thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

I've got my threads all in a twist!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:51 PM

Yes, Giok, I know, but this one did NOT start out as a gun debate. There IS a thread for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:54 PM

It's been part of the discussion since about the 9th post, not much we can do to change it now!
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:59 PM

there is no point...Those who simply WANT guns will twist any argument in order to have them. I have never seen so many fallacious 'straw man' arguments in such a sort space....many of them by my friend beardedbruce.

"shall we ban English majors?"...right. cute.

That vague clause in the 2nd amendment was written in a totally different time. The founders never saw an AK-47 or a Glock. (How many would that disturbed fellow been able to shoot with a muzzle-loader?)   
   Whether the founders intended for every citizen to have the right to keep firearms around **AT HOME** or not...which I doubt was the intent, it is time for that clause to be either amended or clarified to specifically state that weapons are to be possessed BY "a well-ordered militia" and issued TO qualified members OF that militia when necessary.

   I note that the smoke had not cleared until a gun advocacy group actually released a statement saying that IF their idea of allowing students to carry concealed weapons had been followed, 'this might have been avoided'. And when the cops rush in and find 27 students with guns, who do they look at?

   I submit- we have tried allowing guns to damn near anyone who asks for them for years now. It's time to try it the other way and SEE if reducing the number of guns AND legal gun owners doesn't also reduce gun violence.

...and for crap's sake...if you are going to advocate for a position, at least TRY to stick to relevant facts!

and bruce...***I can find the Bill of Rights when I need it***....PLEASE deliver us from tedious copy/paste of specious arguments and slanted irrelevancies.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:14 PM

A case can be made, imo, for arming oneself against intruders into one's home, if one is comfortable with balancing that need against the possibility of a youngster getting hold of said weapon. My guess is that statistics are available.

As far as protecting oneself against a government is concerned, keeping weapons for that purpose imo is a silly and vain hope. In the day, there were no fast highways or fleets to travel on them, there was no database detailing the location of homes and their owners, there frequently were no military or police authorities close to those homes.

I can just imagine my fighting off a tank with my popgun, or holding the door against troops intent on breaking it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:19 PM

Exactly, Ebbie!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:37 PM

The point has been made that IF your home is invaded, and unless you are trained and comfortable with having guns, you are VERY unlikely to have a weapon right at hand, and that it is more likely the criminal will end up adding YOUR gun to his collection...

Also, if you DO have a gun, and IF you shoot at an intruder, you'd better be sure they fall inside! otherwise, they...or their relatives..may sue you, claiming 'no proof of criminal intent' or something similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:39 PM

Although, those war-like lads of Afghanistan seem to be holding their own with their popguns ... not to mention those war-like lads of Iraq ...

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:41 PM

Well, I was really hoping that the VT kids and professors who were killed would be buried before the gun debate entered at full throttle...

I have made no attempts to hide my feelings in past threads how I feel about handguns and will look forward to voicing those thoughts again when the ***timing*** is appropriate...

I remember after Columbine, Bill Clinton was asked why he hadn't propsed stronger handgun controls and he said, "Because the votes aren't there in Congress"...

Well, I don't know if the votes are there this time around but I certainly expect a vigorous debate not only among the population by also Congress over the next few months...

BTW, posting right wing, pro-gun, NRA cut 'n pastes is not a discussion... Discussions involve ***ideas*** and not endless propaganda collected by folks who profit financially from the proliferation of handguns...

Might of fact, discussion should rarely involve cut 'n pastes... Integrating research is one thing... Accepting reems and reems of propaganda as fact isn't research...

I'll be looking forward a real discusssion about handguns when the ***timing*** is more respectfull to those who have been killed...

Bobert
(Former NRA member)

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:41 PM

No sweat, Bill. Willing to fill out the forms.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:45 PM

popguns? They have a bit more than popguns...

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:48 PM

you are quite correct Bill

I'm sorry but when is there a more compelling time to discuss gun control?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:10 PM

There ya go. When burglars and such knock on your door and ask politely if they can come in and take whatever they want.... make them tea!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:44 PM

Yes, indeed, there are more than popguns involved in Iraq, not to mention that the only tanks there are fighting for, not against our lads. And to watch our lads break down doors chills my bones.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:42 PM

Just something that struck me as bizzare, as I did happen to read BBruces paste of those prohibited from gun ownership:

"Anyone that is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner."

Why in God's name doesn't that line end with the word "threatening"?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Slag
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:56 PM

Threadbare! Rest in peace you victims of another madman. There's no peace here on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:29 PM

Nope.

"popguns? They have a bit more than popguns... "

"Yes, indeed, there are more than popguns involved in Iraq"

Yes - and there are more than popguns stashed in cellars, garages, warehouses, barns and bunkers all over the USA. Don't kid yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:37 PM

Gun purchased legally a week or so ago.
Apparently he was one sick puppy already - if the campus cops had realized that instead of just going Oh, just a domestic dispute, nothing big, perhaps somebody might have shut the door after one of the *first* few times he popped his head into the class before coming back finally and shooting...

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:57 PM

I have no idea, Guest/meself, how many bigger-than popguns are hidden in "cellars, garages, warehouses, barns and bunkers all over the USA" and I don't know how you know but anyone who uses an AK47, say, against a tank or a squad of troops must plan to go out blazing-with the emphasis on 'go out'.

If the day should ever come in this country when citizens must rebel against a tyrannical government that is being enforced by a military/police force, I would say, we must do what we must. Conceivably a suicidal citizenry would turn the government around- ya think?

In a bitter slice of irony this happened in Japan today:

TOKYO - The mayor of the Japanese city of Nagasaki was shot to death in a brazen attack Tuesday by an organized crime chief..."

Today

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: GUEST,gun owner
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:16 AM

The media and the politicians haven't waited to start the debate over handguns, so why should the people who will be the most affected by it not debate?

First of all, did this guy really say this?:

Democratic Sen. Barack Obama says the killings at Virginia Tech University were "the act of a madman on some level" that probably couldn't have been prevented.

But, he said Monday night in Milwaukee, the tragedy offers America a chance to examine violence in our culture, including the "verbal violence" expressed by radio personality Don Imus in his rant about the Rutgers University women's basketball team....

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/4/17/204951.shtml

If he said that, then out of the gate they're trying to tie this bloodshed to "verbal violence." Amazing. Don't forget that 45 days after 9/11 we had the USA PATRIOT Act, and under that act you are a domestic terrorist if you break a federal or state law. Looks like the politicians are gearing up for an omnibus "violence" bill that will outlaw EVERYTHING.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:48 AM

"go out blazing-with the emphasis on 'go out'"

My impression is that there are a good many who would be willing to do just that. And, yes, I think "a tyrannical government" would have a very difficult time with a popular rebellion in the US, if it ever came to it. If it was the tyrannical government that had the popular support, then it might be a different story.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:11 AM

Gun owner: You have omitted a few things what Obama said. Here's the rest.


"So much is rooted in our incapacity to recognize ourselves in each other, to not realize we are connected fundamentally as people," he said, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Obama also cited a 1968 speech by Robert F. Kennedy after Martin Luther King Jr. was shot and killed, in which Kennedy said any violent loss of life degrades America.

And even though it's been nearly 40 years since then, Obama says it seems like little has changed regarding violence in American culture.

"The reason we don't do anything about it is not technical . . . it's because our politics is broken. We've given up believing we can change things. So we turn away . . . and start worrying about ourselves."



I realize you put a link to the article, but maybe most folks won't look for the rest. Just making sure folks get to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:50 AM

I watched a programme on British television last night about a guy who murdered his parents and got off on a charge of manslaughter.

I started a thread about it, someone moaned about it because of the events in Virginia it was poorly timed. Hence my thread was closed, (Murder or Manslaughter) For the love of God what was such a programme got to do with this thread ?


Should they moan to Independent Television for showing it?


Clearly the old network still alive and kicking on mudcat.

Anyone any idea of the times of church services this coming Sunday ?
Has mudcat a Christian Sunday School ?

Get real.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: GUEST,gun owner
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:31 AM

This is the "Letter to the Editor" I've been mailing out:

New Omnibus Anti-Gun/Anti-Speech Law Coming?

According to Newsmax.com, Senator Barack Obama said, "the tragedy offers America a chance to examine violence in our culture, including the "verbal violence" expressed by radio personality Don Imus in his rant about the Rutgers University women's basketball team...."

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/4/17/204951.shtml

If he said this, then we should be on the watch for omnibus legislation outlawing all types of "violence." Don't forget that 45 days after 9/11 we had the USA PATRIOT Act, which makes you a "domestic terrorist" if you, among other things, break a federal law or a state law. The U.S. Congress passed the PATRIOT Act as a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11 then said later they didn't have time to read the thing before voting on it. The same thing could be shaping up in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings. Congress could be pressured to vote on a sweeping "anti-violence" bill that would take away our guns, our right to free speech, and our rights, period.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:47 AM

CNN reports that two Secret Service Agents were injured yesterday in the accidental discharge of a firearm near the White House.

Yes, guns are safe in the hands of trained professionals.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:13 AM

The straw men are flying thick and fast on this thread! Behold, obfuscation at its rhetorical finest--the NRA is trying to not get pinned to the wall.

Let's put it this way: Pro-gun folks are entrenched in their views, just as the gun-control folks are. But the pro-gun folks, if they're honest, MUST be feeling a twinge of doubt about now. They protest too much the positive aspects of individual gun ownership. Act on that twinge. Accept that regulating hand guns is necessary (note, I didn't say hunting rifles.) Your way hasn't worked, so do something different.

I won't be moved by crocodile tears for the poor gun manufacturers and Washington lobbyists. They knew what they were doing. Now its time to pay the bill.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:21 AM

On another note, does it occur to anyone else that Iraq sees more than 32 violent deaths EVERY DAY?!!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:56 AM

If you have been reading my posts, you would know that I beat the editorial cartoonist of the Washington Post by a day.

(Thank you SRS, you reinforce the point very well.)

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Bee
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:04 AM

Guest gun owner, with your 4000 rounds of ammo for the relatives and your exaggerated paranoia, you are a poster child for some kind of gun control!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:09 AM

CAPT GINGER
nice of you to join us and weigh in your opinion, facts and hopes for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:09 AM

127 dead today at the hands of a suicide bomber.