BS: Could there be multiple universes?

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:17 PM

The construction, however, does reflect the reality as far as we have tested it Richard. Discrete energy levels and particle entanglement are testable actualities. Why do you think quantization is just a "construct" ?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:32 PM

Heisenberg. You can never demonstrate which route the last photon actually took. Discrete energy levels are measurable - within what we know of measurement of energy. What if one did not recognise the concept of vorticity in measuring water-flow energies? What we cannot prove is that ther eis a photon or quark, or subatomic particle.   What we can at best show is that the gross evidence is consistent with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 25 May 07 - 05:59 PM

Why not a triangular universe?

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 07 - 06:16 PM

No reason why not. The notional 4D frame of our apparent universe strikes me as arbitrary as all get-ut. Left-corkscrew space, three-vector time, and self-multiplying energy would be fun variables to start a universe with, I think.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:37 PM

I have a suspicion that the 'variables' are actually pretty UNvariable....some things just make more sense than others.....and before you suggest that my idea of 'sense' is narrow & rigid, Amos..*grin*, I still would be willing to bet 25¢ that most theoretical varients will remain that way. Equations are fun, but we can always describe things we can't really conceive of or explain in any useful manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 07 - 08:11 PM

I created a character that could travel in the Z axis of space and effectively step into a preferred mirrored universe.

While he can get out of tragic situations, each Z axis side step causes him to become left handed instead of right and visa versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 07 - 08:58 PM

Bill:

I think this depends entirely on what you consider space tiself to be, and whence it cometh. Most pure-physics models are pretty dull about this, citing space as the thing you find energy in, and energy as the things you find in space. Very circular and indicative that there is somer underlying paradigm, or assumpiton, that just begs to be discovered. Of course it is very disturbing to think about a defintion for space itself, since we are accustomed to mostly being inside "it" (or "them" depending on your definition). It strains the brain like a fish trying to describe water. But that is not grounds for rejecting the question.

Thought itself, it seems to me, creates a variety of dimensional-like constructs in its exercise and may have more to do with the kind of space we see than one would suppose.

Just messing with you, though, Bill. I know this is all silly stuff, since thought is generated by the brain which is safely and permanently located in space, and therefore space can only be some external bowl of water in which we swim, I guess... :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 07 - 08:57 PM

gee...you ARE getting close, Amos.... ;>)...but even that bowl of water metaphor is dangerous, as it tends to give substance TO space.

I know...lots of debate over whether 'space' is curved...positively, negatively, or just flat. Some of those theories and equations require one or the other. .....Now I wonder what 'shape' space might have been one second before the 'big bang'.(if there was one)....and if that shape changed a few seconds after the big bang. Well, what I really wonder is whether 'space' makes any sense without things 'in' it.

Was there at some 'time', NO-thing? And if so, was there any space to be curved? Is 'space' only a name for that not-solid area between the solid stuff we care about and can weigh, measure and take pictures of?
I am, of course, heading in my usual direction of wondering just how our obvious need to name certain aspects of whatever passes for reality also affects how we construct theories about the ultimate nature of things.

" Most pure-physics models are pretty dull about this.."

Yep...kinda dull. It is a lot more interesting to manipulate terminology and imagine META-physical realms where dimensions and planes of existence and entire universes can be tossed about with impunity. Entire religions have been built on these imaginary realms...(Oahspe, Urantia). We make fun of them, but talk seriously of wormholes into other universes where physical laws are 'different'.

It's an interesting feeling to have evolved into a being with a physical brain complex enough to ask these questions and wonder ....ummm...how we can ask these questions! Just being able to contemplate our own existence seems to imply ALL the other questions - even the ones we can't answer. "Can God make a weight he can't lift?"...Can Man ask a question he can't, by definition, ever answer?.......me, I suspect he sure enuf can....

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:25 AM

A fine an easy to read commentary:

We will never explain the cosmos by taking on faith either divinity or physical laws. True meaning is to be found within nature (link to GUARDIAN)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:37 AM

...thought is generated by the brain... That's a hypothesis in itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:39 AM

What I mean by that is, it has been suggested that that is analogous to assuming that a TV programme is generated by the TV set.

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:33 PM

A very nice commentary, Wolfgang. It even hints at the semantic issues of referring to "physical law" as if it were a set of rules which were 'followed' as the Universe took shape, instead of just being the relationships we discover.

When someone suggests there 'may' be other universes where neutrons and protons had slighly different weights, and thus don't combine, I see the point, but I also suspect that part of BEING neutrons & protons...etc..IS their weight relationship, and that the very speculation makes little sense. In any case, I can't see how we could ever test the hypotheses about alternate universes...even if we can 'describe' them mathematically.

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM

What if dark matter is matter in a parallel universe? Perhaps it warps space that is close to our own but does not interpentrate it so it is not perceptible to us but the effects of that warpage are felt in our universe but we can only understand it as some kind of invisible matter clumping our universe together.

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 05:34 PM

ah, yes...'perhaps'. We can't see it, feel it, measure it...but we can talk about it.

*shrug*..if we can't TELL either that we are affected by something, or that it exists at all, speculation about its nature is but a game...perhaps...

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:09 PM

Mudcat is the ultimate alternative universe.....imagine a world where someone gives a shit about what you think.....where your intimate thoughts are preserved for posterity.......

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:18 PM

Of course there are parallel universes, that's what accounts for ghosts, We all inhabit the same space at different wavelengths, and sometimes when they get too close, we can almost see the people in another dimension. This is why they appear to walk through walls, because those walls don't exist in their world.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:33 PM

how did you get there Giok?