Murder/Manslaughter-Amanda Knox acquitted(3-Oct11)

Subject: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:01 PM

Excellent programme on British television tonight looking at the case of Brian Blackwell, a 19-year-old student who stabbed his parents to death in 2004 before jetting off on a luxury holiday with his girlfriend.

He was jailed after admitting to manslaughter with diminished responsibility, on the grounds that he was suffering from a narcissistic personality disorder.

He claimed he just lost it. He stabbed his father 34 times after caving his head in with a hammer, his father was 72.

He hit his mother on the head with the hammer and then stabbed her 22 times.

We got off with a charge of manslaughter ! Sounds like murder to me. He achieved his goal of inheriting their money and the programme said he will be out in five years.

Does this sound like justice to you ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Willie-O
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:44 PM

Clearly accidental.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:46 PM

Did he throw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan?

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Ref
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:06 PM

Perhaps he was allowed to plead to the reduced charge because the State (Crown?) had a problem of proof. Sounds like a murder to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:17 PM

Sounds like he hired a good lawyer to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:21 PM

And if he was true to form, there was no one left to send payment to.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: pdq
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:27 PM

Once in the ol' Wild West a man was found dead with a rifle by his side.

Coroner noted death was caused by five bullets wounds. In the back.

Coronors verdict: suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,American
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:35 PM

In America, they want people like that back out on the streets. Can't take up valuable slave labor prison space with problem types.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:27 PM

IMO, timing of this thread is in poor taste, coming on the heels of Virginia Tech's tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Bert
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:33 PM

Right you are katmeluv, I usually ignore such threads started by a "GUEST".

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:42 PM

Sorry. Of course you're right.

One thing that might help is to stop all threads started by Guests in the BS section.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Becca72
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:38 PM

IMO, the guest who started this thread asked a valid question about a program he saw. It was some of the regulars who made light of the situation...

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:17 PM

If the programme was on last night then it was appropriate to ask the question.

Brian Blackwell was convicted of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility and sentenced to life in prison. He had planned to study to become a doctor or surgeon and was offered a university place to study medicine. I think we should all be grateful that he won't now be caring for anyone in that way - although I'm not holding my breath here because more ridiculous things have happened!

A manslaughter verdict would be OK if he was locked up in a secure hospital indefinitely.

I'm interested to know if his parents' money was used to pay for his trial or whether he will be entitled to everything when he comes out of prison. Bearing in mind the fact that some people recently released from British prisons after miscarriages of justice and having served long sentences when they were in fact innocent have now been asked to pay for their stay in prison from any compensation they have received. You would hope that no-one could benefit from their crime in this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:33 PM

No, he didn't inherit. There was litigation. Ex turpi non oritur causa actio.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:34 PM

Sunt ubi!

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:41 PM

Jose Iturbi!

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:02 PM

Thank you for opening this thread again. I only asked a simply question, I did not make any compassion with the sad events in America. One lady was a little over sensitive.

To me it was murder and the guy should never get out of prison. Over 30 stab wounds is not manslaughter, it's cold blooded murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,patty o'dawes
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:15 PM

I saw the programme and couldn't understand the verdict either. I also don't have any faith in the clinical assessment of his personality disorder. He was able to fool so many people for so long with his fantasy life style that I wondered if the personality disorder was another of his games.

A chilling programme and ufathomable to think he will be out so soon.

Equally unfathomable to be told by someone above that we should not have been discussing it - but that's another personality disorder I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:21 PM

I agree. The guy was out to take all the mother and father had, he lost love and respect for them. People should not be allowed this easy way out of the crimes they commit. Once found guilty, then it's up to the judge to get an assessment done before sentencing. He will be out in five years.
Still trying to work out how the person above could link this case to a school shooting myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:59 PM

On the other hand, you can take comfort knowing that the farmer who shot and killed someone who broke into his house will spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Canadienne
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:07 PM

If you're referring to Tony Martin his sentance was reduced to 5 years for manslaughter on appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:08 PM

I suspect the other person thought (as I initially did) that the 'murderer' in the thread title was the shooter in Virginia. The newspapers here in the UK have been making big headlines about his mental state and he would seem to fit the description - manslaughter due to diminished responsibility.

It's very hard to tell when mania or depression turns to violence whether it's been pre-meditated or not. I frequently express a desire to kill my spouse (especially tonight when he's snoring, snorting and twitching in his sleep and keeping me awake) and have previously been diagnosed with a mental health issue... If he doesn't wake up tomorrow, will I be guilty of murder or manslaughter? I didn't go to bed last night planning on killing him, despite expressing the desire to previously, but I've got one nerve left today, and he's snoring through it...

Normally, I wouldn't dream of hurting him, but there are situations that make me want to rip his throat out and beat him with the soggy end. If I ever once give into that desire, the release will be enormous and may well result in multiple stab wounds. The number of wounds will have no significant reason, and to me would lean towards the uncontrolled, frenzied state that a mental health problem can bring on. To cold-bloodedly kill a person takes a great deal of control - something that would result in one or two significant wounds. So, either this guy really was unhinged and therefore the charge should be manslaughter or else he was clever enough to make it look like a frenzied attack.

Whether it was manslaughter or murder, he should not be let out for a long time, he should receive treatment for his mental disorder and not use it as a soft option.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:13 PM

Yes you are right. That farmer made an awful mistake from the start. He should have asked to get a social worker appointed to his defence, not a lawyer. And a psychiatrist, not a barrister.

He should have made faces at the jury and shock hands with the wall.

He would never have served on a hour. After the case we could have listed to an expect on the lunchtime news tell us the name of the syndrome he suffers from, craftious.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:15 PM

You are very fortunate that no one in your part of the world is mentally ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:17 PM

Plenty are I am sure, maybe with your skills you could assess them ?
So what does this murderer suffer from ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:21 PM

Don't get all shitty with me, Jack! I have no idea what he suffers from. Just like I don't have any idea what you suffer from. Try sarcasm next door. The guy there won't tell you to get fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM

Very nice. Charming in fact. A graduate of Charm School.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:37 PM

Thanks, Canadienne; that is the case I was referring to, but I was under the impression that it was far more recent. The fact that Martin only spent 18 months in prison certainly puts it in a different light ...

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:38 PM

Don't get shitty with me and I will be both polite and civil with you in return.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 03:43 AM

Funny isn't it, that Tony Martin was jailed for doing exactly what many Americans say they have a firearm for, he was defending his own home.
He was fed up with having his property broken into, and his farm equipment stolen.
He went to jail because his firearm was unlicensed, and the victim Fred Barras [?] was shot in the back, and was thus deemed to be non threatening and undeserving of being shot. This was in darkness BTW. (Perhaps he should have changed his name to General Belgrano!)
Make no mistake about it, Tony Martin went to jail for having an unlicenced shotgun, and for taking the law into his own hands. This was after he'd complained to the authorities about the constant theft and vandalism he had suffered from, but just because the law are too lazy to do anything about it, doesn't mean he should defend his property though, apparently.
I'm not saying what he did was right, as I disagree with all killing, but the man was shabbily treated, and was in a way driven to do what he did through lack of support from the authorities.
There is however no way that what he did should be compared with some of the others being discussed at the moment.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Megan L
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 04:42 AM

Perhaps it is time we started calling things what they are.
To take another persons life is murder (There may be extenuating circumstances but that does not change the fact that a life was taken.

To take another persons car is not joy riding it is theft at best the cars are often left burnt out or trashed becoming an eyesore. so often however the car is crashed taking innocent lives if that happens the charge should be murder.

same with drink it appears to be used as some kind of mitigation for what happened. It is not a reason if the perpetrator hadn't chosen to take that drink the person with thier head kicked in or lying dead in their car or by the side of the road would not have been put in that danger if drink is used as the excuse the sentance should be doubled.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Grab
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:32 AM

I disagree, Giok. If revenge ever becomes a valid reason for killing someone, we're all in deep trouble. Barras and his friend were running away, and he still shot them. Yes it was dark, but this was at point-blank range, and if you can see clearly enough to hit someone full on, you can see clearly enough to know where they're going.

But previous provocation *can* be a mitigating factor, which is why Martin's sentence was lowered and the initial sentence was clearly wrong.

As for this case, if you claim diminished responsibility on the grounds of mental illness, you're laying yourself open to the possibility of permanent imprisonment for as long as doctors still think you're affected, as eanjay says. Sadly the system isn't as well-organised as it could be on this though, but this is happening more frequently.

And the difference between murder and manslaughter is premeditation. If you can't show premeditation, it's manslaughter. If the CPS couldn't show (to a jury's satisfaction) that he planned in advance to do it, manslaughter is the alternative.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: jeffp
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:58 AM

Hitting somebody full on does not necessarily imply being able to see. A random shot has a chance of hitting full on. It's been known to happen. That being said, sounds should indicate whether a person is advancing or running away. The shooting was unjustified, but understandable.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 08:03 AM

I always felt sorry for Tony Martin; he was clearly at the end of his tether with it all. It doesn't make it right but as jeffp said it is understandable and the decision to reduce his sentence was the right one. Tony Martin does not appear to be, in normal circumstances, a dangerous man.

I don't have the same feeling for Brian Blackwell and he sounds as if he is a dangerous man.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM

Thread creep, I have been coming to this forum for some time as a guest, I don't post often but why should guests not start threads, would often be a change from the same old same old of some regular Non guests.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:02 AM

So far no one is stopping you, so don't worry about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:10 AM

And as for posting as Guest, Joe has requested that you take a 'handle' so as to distinguish you from all other guests. Right now you're the no-name variety.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:04 AM

I didn't see this programme. Is he serving in an ordinary prison?

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:28 AM

Thanks, LtS, but I didn't confuse this one with the one in VA. I guess I was too naive in believing that some folks would understand I viewed it as a lack of compassion to post a thread about another horrific killing by a young person right on the heels of the VA massacre. It is all painful and sad.

Also, calling someone overly-sensitive is a bully's cop-out.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 08:35 AM

Four Plymouth women were told they posed no risk to society
after they goaded two toddlers into fighting and filmed it.

The seven minutes of video showed a two year old boy wearing a nappy being called a "wimp" for not hitting a girl aged three back after she struck him in the face.

The four women were heard laughing as the toddler brother and sister are urged to keep on fighting.

The boy, aged two, is seen crying after being punched in the face by his three-year-old sister and is told by one of the four women in the room "not to be a wimp or a faggot" and to hit her back.

        
Anyone watching this footage... would have been sickened and saddened
Det Sgt Barry Walters said.

One of the women pleaded guilty to causing or procuring the children to be ill treated in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury.

The other three pleaded guilty to jointly inciting the ill treatment of children.

Judge Francis Gilbert, gave all four women a one-year suspended sentence, saying they posed no risk to the public.

Anyone watching such footage showing grown adults encouraging very young children committing unnatural acts would be sickened and saddened.

To give suspended sentences for a such crime is a scandal. At the same court a local woman received a £200.00 fine for not having road tax or a current M.O.T. !

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 08:56 AM

As long as we have many judges we will have many judgements.

Any prosecutor who can use his head instead of his heart will go for a lesser charge that he KNOWS he can prove rather than risk going for the more serious charge that he might not be able to prove, and consequently, watch the perp walk. (A bird in the hand.)

I used to read the court news in the paper, but all it did was piss me off. For instance, one day I read that in a local court, a man was fined $25.00 for carrying a concealed weapon in a bar. It was a loaded pistol.
In the same list was a man who was fined $200.00 for driving an overloaded truck.
Another man was fined $500.00 for shooting a Moose out of season.

Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 09:35 AM

Good points Kendal.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 12:57 PM

manslaughter verdict.

The pastors wife just got 3 years for killing her husband with a shot gun to his back while he was sleeping.

it just went off...

besides she testified that he wanted to have sex with "her bottom".

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:06 PM

"He achieved his goal of inheriting their money" - I doubt very much if that was the case.

As I understand it you cannot legally profit from a crime. The fact that Blackwell was convicted of manslaughter rather than murder would make no difference in this respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 07:42 PM

The parents had a will made, he was sole beneficiary. The fact he swung a diagnosis gave him rights under the revised mental health act, well that was what one guy said on the radio the day following the televised account of the murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 03:04 AM

30 stab wounds doesn't sound 'cold blooded'. sounds very frenzied and a bit crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:19 AM

I asked about the money in my post on 18 April 6.17pm and Richard Bridge answered at 7.33pm to say that there was litigation and he didn't inherit the money.

I'm interested to know if it paid for his trial and if it will pay for his stay in prison. That seems only fair in these circumstances when there have been people who have been victims of miscarriages of justice and the cost of their stay in prison has been deducted from their compensation.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 07:11 AM

All I can find is he received legal aid for his case. He wasn't charged for fraud for using his fathers credit card either.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 07:39 AM

It would be appropriate since he killed his parents and he was the only named heir that now that they are no longer here their money should be used to bring him to justice and to keep him in prison.

If he received legal aid then surely tax payers should be informed of what happened to the other money.

If he is seriously mentally ill then you would expect him to get appropriate treatment. I didn't see the programme and I haven't managed to find any mention of any treatment he is receiving that would mean he could be released back into the community after only five years.

Subject: RE: BS: Cold-blooded murder or Manslaughter ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:27 AM

If the man had been found not guilty by reason of insanity he might have a claim to inherit. But that wasn't what happened - he pleaded guilty of manslaughter and was convicted of that. I doubt very much if he could inherit under those circumstances, no matter what someone said on the radio.