How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?

Subject: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From:
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 08:17 PM

I am trying to learn some Mance Lipscomb songs, so I have been listening to him a bit lately. It reminds me that I don't know the story of how he was brought to the attention of revivalists.

I know John Hurt, Doc Boggs, Son House, etc. made records in the 20s and people began to see if they were still around. Son House seems to have been stumbled upon by Alan Lomax before the revival. Fred McDowell was discovered by Lomax while he was nosing around the Delta.

I know Lipscomb was a sharecropper in Texas when he was discovered; but I don't know by whom or how. Did he make records in the 20s>

Murray

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 08:51 PM

Believe it was Chris Strachwitz from Arhoolie Records. I haven't heard of Mance recording anything before. Believe he was always a farm hand or share cropper. Hell of a musician. Have you seen any of the several videos on him?

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From:
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 03:17 AM

Thanks Rick. I was also wondering what made them look for him in the first place.

Yes I have seen him on some Vestapol videos. All but one seem to be from the same performance at a Texas TV station. One of him playing a "knife song" has him with a bandaged finger. I don't know where that one was taken. He plays "Motherless Children".

Murray

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 05:27 AM

Murray, Rick is right, Mance Lipscomb had never previously recorded before Chris Strachwitz and Mack McCormick "discovered" him in 1960. For the full story of how this came about I suggest you check out 'I Say For Me a Parable: The Oral Autobiography of Mance Lipscomb', compiled by Glen Alyn (1993, Da Capo Press).It's a fascinating read, I'm sure you'll love it.

Brian

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Lion (LEJ)
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 04:20 PM

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Lion (LEJ)
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 04:26 PM

It has been sometime since I have been able to find anyone to talk about the blues with, and since the Lomax name has come up, does anyone realize how badly they treated the guys who sang the songs? It's hard to believe that for all the songs the Lomaxes took from people like Son House that the only payment they made was a bottle of coke. Paul Oliver wrote a most interesting book "Blues like showers of rain" ? Not sure of the title.

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 03:03 AM

Lion,

I think the Paul Oliver book you are refering to is 'Blues Fell this Morning: Meaning in the Blues.' Paul Oliver has written a number of books on the subject, one of his best, and still one of the best general books on the blues, is 'The Story of the Blues.'

Brian

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Night Owl
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 03:17 AM

I just realized in reading this thread, that although I'm very familiar with the name Alan Lomax and have songs collected by him, I have no idea what his reality was. Has anyone read an "accurate" biography about his life...was he purposefully "ripping off" these songs or was he collecting on a shoestring with no idea of its subsequent success....did he get rich in his lifetime from his collections? I somehow had the impression that he struggled himself for survival....but really have no basis for the thought.

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 03:36 AM

Early in 1942, the government restricted the use of shellac, and blues and gospel releases - at 125 - were half what they had been in '41. In July 1942 the president of the American Federation of Musicians, J.C. Petrillo - worried about the effects of jukeboxes on live music - announced a ban on all recording, and the studios were closed for two years...Although commercial recording of music came to a standstill with the Petrillo ban, one recording concern was unaffected - the Music Division of the Library of Congress. Since 1933 they had been collecting all types of folk music on record to form a permanent reference libary in their Archives. A dedicated group of researchers, led by John A. Lomax, had been combing the countryside with small mobile recording units, concentrating particularly on prison farms and penitentiaries. Over the course of the nine years up to 1942 they had recorded about 4,000 titles by at least 850 black singers, quite apart from their activities in hillbilly and other spheres...Leadbelly was discovered and recorded by Lomax in the State Penitentiary, Angola, Lousiana, in 1933... Source: "Recording The Blues," Robert Dixon, New York, 1970, Stein and Day Publishers.

Mark

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 05:37 AM

Interesting questions about Lomax. Sandy Paton knew him and might have some thoughts on this. But a fascinating read is the story of Skip James. I'm sorry, it's late and I've forgotten the title and author (Steven Calt?) I'll check it out tomorrow if no one does it first. One of the points made however, was that none of the blues rediscovery guys had a clue just how small the market was at the time for their music. They figured that the enthusiasm of the collectors represented thousands of new potential fans (and album sales) when in fact it was more like a few hundred. Probably same thing with a lot of the folks Lomax collected, so they made diddly. I doubt if Lomax got rich collecting music. Whether he got rich in other ways, I don't know.

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 06:33 AM

Yeah, you're right it is by Stven Calt. Title is "I'd Rather be the Devil" and dollars to donuts this sucker is out of print. I don't remember when I bought this, but I think I found it in a used bookstore in Atlanta. Watch, I'm [robably totally wrong and it's being reissued as we speak...but I kinda' doubt it!!!

catspaw

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 09:17 AM

As far as I'm aware, it is still in print and available. It's published by Da Capo Press (who have been putting out a lot of previously out of print books on the blues) and you can easily get a copy and support the Mudcat by following the link to Amazon.

Brian.

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 09:26 AM

BTW I might have missed some recent news (?), seeing as everyone seems to be refering to him in the past tense, but as far as I'm aware Alan Lomax is still alive.

Brian

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 09:51 AM

Brian,

I just went to Amazon and the book is out of print, but they will do a Used search for you.

catspaw

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Lion
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 10:03 PM

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Lion
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 10:07 PM

Brian, your memory is in great shape! Blues Fell This Morning is the title I was groping for. Also, another and more generous point, was the fact that the Lomax budget was probably limited and poor Alan was stumbling aroung the bayous and whatnot getting no recognition and then trashed by me. I am now somewhat subdued about my quick take on the fellow's character. However, I still liked Paul Oliver better!

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Lion
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 10:36 PM

Rick, Brian et al:

I just remembered an amusing anecdote about Mississippi John Hurt. Must share it. At some point towards the end of his life he was booked to play a concert somewhere (curse this memory) and he was given a wonderful intro and the audience waited and he didn't appear, so another wonderful intro was given, he still didn't appear. Eventually, don't know how long, he was discovered sitting in the wings thoroughly enjoying all the wonderful intros and nice things that were said about him!

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 03:20 AM

Nice story Lion. If anyone wants a copy of Stephen Calt's book on Skip James, Red Lick are still selling copies of it, email [e-mail]

Brian

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From:
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 09:31 AM

My VDU has been on the fritz for a few days and I just caught up with this thread again. Thanks Brian for the Autobiography of Mance Lipscomb. I will look for it.

I also was under the impression that Alan Lomax was still alive.

As far as I can see, during the time Lomax was collecting for the L of C he was on a limited budget and probably couldn't give his performers anything. On the other hand, during these later years he has been puting together collections of the field recordings and I don't know what happens to the money (if any) that they bring in. Lomax did, by his own account, a lot toward providing a career for Muddy Waters and Fred McDowell and probably others. He did record Son House in the 40s(?); but I think he was re-re-discovered later.

Until recently, our picture of Leadbelly was distorted by John Lomax's point of view; but I don't know if Alan Lomax can be blamed for any of that.

I really would like Sandy to chime in at this point!

Murray

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: ddw
Date: 16 Nov 99 - 01:14 AM

Murray,

Don't know if you're still interested in this, but I was away on vacation when the original postings were done and I do have a bit of an interest in Mance — if you noticed last week I was asking people's opinion on whether/how to go about producing some albums from some live recordings I have of him.

I've heard Mance was "discovered" by Arhoolie's Chris Strachwitz in 1960, so I don't know what happened in the interim, but I first heard Mance at a coffee house (Sword and Stone) in Oklahoma City on May 5, 1966 and he told me that night that he didn't have any records. When I asked why not, he said he had had a hard time getting social security because the family Bible had been lost in a fire and he couldn't prove his age. He finally did get it, but somebody told him that if he made records and made a lot of money for a short time, the government would cut him off and then he'd have to go through the whole process again.

I thought somebody should be able to hear him, so I asked if I could take a tape recorder to the club the next night and tape the show. He agreed and I got nearly three hours of pretty great stuff.

A few months later I was back in NC, talking to my brother-in-law and playing a little music. I told him about Mance and said it was a real shame he wouldn't make records.

Richard (the B-i-L) worked for Social Security and one of his sideline jobs for them was to produce 15-minute spots of folk music, to be run as public service on radio stations, with info about the SS interspersed with the songs.

Richard said he thought Mance sounded like a prime example of the kind of performers he was looking for, so I told him where Mance lived (which I now don't recall except that it was in central Texas) and he looked up which field office he would deal with.

Richard called and found out who his field rep was and authorized him to talk Mance into going into a studio and cutting some discs for SS. I'm not sure if he ever did, but Richard told the field rep to assure Mance that commercial recording would not jeopardize his SS status and I think ML did some recordings after that.

BTW — The story I heard of how Mance got to the Sword and Stone was that some people who hung around there were driving to the Texas gulf on a holiday and found him playing on the porch of a crossroads store. They listened until he packed up and left, then drove south for a week or so. On their way back to Oklahoma City they stopped at the same store and were told Mance had been jailed for vagrancy. They went back to OKC and told the crowd at the S&S, who took up a collection, and then drove back to Texas to bail him out. Apparently ML was so grateful that any time the S&S wanted him to play he would get on a bus and ride about 12 hours to get there for a gig.

Now, for a disclaimer of sorts. Apart from the dates I first heard him and I recorded him, a lot of this is hearsay filtered through 33 years of imploding grey cells and Richard's part in it is only what he told me. I do know Mance told me in 1966 that he had no records out, so I don't know what was happening or not happening with Arhoolie at that time.

There's somebody else on the Mudcat who might be able to fill in a lot of blanks. Banjoman hung around the S&S and was there long before and long I was in that scene. He knew Mance much better than I did (those two nights were the only times I met him) and would know more about the "discovery" story than I do.

I know you're out there, Banjoman, so wade in and tell us what y ou know.....

david

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: andyjim
Date: 16 Nov 99 - 09:20 PM

Lion,

I don't know if this is where the story on Mississippi John Hurt originated or not:

I went to a Son House/John Hurt concert at Oberlin College in about 1966. Son House played first, and was so drunk he was hardly understandable. When he finished, John Hurt was introduced. At the end of the introduction the audience applauded heartily, and Mississippi John laughed in embarrassment from the balcony where he'd been enjoying the show, and made his way down to the stage.

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Nov 99 - 10:02 PM

Great stuff. Still would like to hear from Sandy (and Banjoman)

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 16 Nov 99 - 11:34 PM

Alan Lomax is still alive, but he has had a stroke and is in a wheelchair. His mind works clearly, but his speech is halting. This is from reports from friends, as I haven't seen Alan in many years. He attended a recent program in Brooklyn, organized by Jerry Epstein, and by all reports he was completely aware of what was taking place.

I know nothing of his financial arrangements with the folk he recorded in the field, although there have been some stories bandied about. One thing is clear: there has never been any serious money in the folksong collecting game. Believe me, I've been there. Alan was always fortunate (or skillful) enough to find sponsors for his field work: the Carnegie people put up money for the Library of Congress field work he did and I was told that the BBC helped finance his field work in the UK. His reputation as this country's leading folksong collector surely helped establish his credentials among sponsoring organizations, as well it should have.

Sandy

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From:
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 03:29 AM

Yes, David, I am still interested in this topic. Thanks for all that info. It explains why Lipscomb had such a "low profile". I never got into your thread; but I will look it up now.

Sandy: I heard in one guitar newsgroup that Alan Lomax was "in a coma somewhere in the South suffering from a 'Medical Emergency'". Your news is at least better than that.

Murray

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 12:46 PM

Murray: How recent was that report? I hope it doesn't mean he's had more trouble!

Sandy

Subject: RE: How was Mance Lipscomb discovered?
From: ddw
Date: 17 Nov 99 - 11:12 PM

Murray,

As I said, I can't vouch for the complete accuracy of all of it, but that's what I know first-hand. I also found numerous references (did a little digging at home) about his recordings and can find nothing documented except his two on Arhoolie.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that they were in fact done in 1960 (the evidence seems pretty overwhelming) and he had sorta moved on when I met him and just didn't mention them. I can't remember now whether I asked him if he "had any records," or "any records out" or "any records for sale." If it was the first or third question, he might have taken it to mean with him at the time and answered "no." That COULD account for such an apparent discrepancy, but I may never know for sure.

I'm also going to do some checking and see if he did, in fact, record anything after Richard authorized the guy in Texas to tell him he could. Don't know how I could find out if he did anything for Social Security, since Richard is now dead and I have no idea how to chase down the info without a whole lot more expense than I want to lay out, but there are ways to trace his discography in the commercial world.

I wonder if Arhoolie has any unreleased material laying around in its archives.

Anyway, I'm still anxiously waiting for Banjoman_CO to wade into this with his knowledge. Saw a post from him in another thread that said he was in Colorado, so maybe he's spending limited time on the Net these days.

Cheers,

david