BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...

Subject: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: tarheel
Date: 01 May 07 - 08:06 PM

oh hum...the illegal run-aways from
Mexico to this country,walked off the job again today to demonstrate how much they are needed here...
well,i didnt see nor hear of any American Companies going busted while these illegals tromped the streets waving thier flags,yelling obscenities and just being good for nothing workers,while the rest of Americans not only did the job that they were hired to do,but also take up the slack left by the unlawful act of the illegals...!
today,proved that we DO NOT NEED them,if anything!
And...By The Way, try doing this on your job any day of the week and watch how fast a Pink Slip falls into your mail box!

Tar...

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Bugsy
Date: 01 May 07 - 08:20 PM

Perhaps it would have been a different story if ALL the illegals in USA walked off the job and marched instead of SOME of them?

Just a thought

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: 282RA
Date: 01 May 07 - 09:14 PM

Surely you're not telling us that illegals can walk off the job and natural citizens can't.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 07 - 09:51 PM

Jaysus, Tarheel.

Get your facts in a row befofe you open your mouth, eh?? These push-button hatreds of yours are tiresome, IMHO.

Here's a rundown on the events of the day which sparked Tar's spume.

According to the link, "About 7.2 million illegal immigrants hold jobs in the United States, making up 4.9 percent of the overall labor force, according to a recent study by the Pew Hispanic Center in Washington, D.C.

Undocumented workers make up 24 percent of farm workers and hold 14 percent of construction jobs, the study found.

The Senate is expected to take up immigration reform before Memorial Day."

Most any business can scrape through a day or two with a 5% reduction in force, but I doubt a farm could afford to reduce by 24% for very long.



A

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: tarheel
Date: 01 May 07 - 10:26 PM

oh amos...oh hum!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 07 - 10:29 PM

Why, how very responsive and germane!


A

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 May 07 - 10:35 PM

Er, tarheel, are you a full blood American Indian native? If not, where did YOUR people come from and WHY?????

We are ALL 'immigrants'. Deal with it.

PS---this attitude is being a Christian???? "And I say unto you, do unto others as you would have done unto yourselves. If you are smote on the cheek, turn the other cheek."

Yet another...."In my Father's house there are many mansions. Yet tho we see through a glass darkly." Perhaps these immigrants just live in another mansion? One without running water like yours perhaps?

George Bernard Shaw wrote a damn good book called 'Why I Am Not a Christian'. I think you should read it Chuck. Maybe even underline some of it and dog ear pages.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 May 07 - 10:41 PM

I would hate to see the price of produce, if the illegal workers left. They actually are skilled at the task.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Peace
Date: 01 May 07 - 11:01 PM

Dear Tarheel, fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Bert
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:58 AM

Human labor is an extremely valuable natural resource. It's a pity that our government is too effing stupid to welcome a cheap supply of it.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 07 - 01:21 AM

My ancestors would have been illegal, too - if today's laws had been in effect at the time. How about your ancestors, Tarheel?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 May 07 - 05:35 AM

Working to rule and withdrawing illegal labour is always a two edged sword.

Working to rule means abiding by ALL rules, not just the ones that suit you. OK, so you may not work overtime, but you may not be allowed that extra 20 mins cigarette break in the afternoons that you've been taking either..

By not turning up to work and parading in public instead, those workers have now given the Immigration board a good idea of how many 'illegals' there are and where they can be found. I'm sure there were several people videoing those parades for reasons other than recording a news event. I wouldn't be at all surprised if suddenly a lot of those who paraded find themselves taking a little trip down south and not coming back.

It opens up an interesting question - do those who knowingly employ 'illegal aliens' ever get prosecuted? By employing people at an impossibly low rate, these employers do nothing to improve the lives of their employees and get rich off the back of people who are so desperate that they will take any job at any wage.

Tarheel - there may well be fiscal repercussions from this day of inaction, but it won't show up until the books are balanced at the end of the month.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 May 07 - 05:39 AM

I bet if they weren't there for a week or more, you'd soon notice the difference.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 08:40 AM

"I bet if they weren't there for a week or more, you'd soon notice the difference."

          But if they weren't here for a year or two, the farms would mechanize and we'd never need them again.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 May 07 - 08:47 AM

And the price of food would go up, quality would go down. Price of fuel is going to continue to go up.

Of course, we could all go back to subsistence farming?

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 May 07 - 09:19 AM

In one office I worked in, my boss said he could not come in for a month and nobody would even notice, but if the lowest paid employee stayed away for just a day, the place fell apart and all useful output ceased.

It was true.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 07 - 09:22 AM

"But if they weren't here for a year or two, the farms would mechanize and we'd never need them again."

There are many operations in growing and harvesting food that cannot be mechanized, if they could they would have been a long time ago - agri-business is in it for the money.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 10:30 AM

"There are many operations in growing and harvesting food that cannot be mechanized, if they could they would have been a long time ago - agri-business is in it for the money"

               Agri-Business is in it for the money, and if they had to pay living wages, state and federal unemployment, social security, state industrial accident, some form of health insurance(not to mention possible vacation pay and maternity leave), I'll bet they'd computerize and mechanize a whole lot of things real quick.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Grab
Date: 02 May 07 - 10:38 AM

The problem is fruit picking, where one object (say, a strawberry) must be detected and picked individually without damaging the object or the plant.

cannot be mechanized

Let's just say "cannot be mechanised until such time as we produce a robot with as good object detection abilities as a human". Such a robot does not yet exist, even in the best computer research labs, and they're getting military-industrial money. Agri-business is unlikely to significantly enhance this research, even if it needs that ability.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 11:28 AM

But I can remember when they said that about things like tomatoes and grapes, but those crops are harvested routinely with machinery now. Of course, some of the grape harvestors have been sidelined, because the illegal alien wages have gotten so low.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:06 PM

It's sad that in a 'hot' issue like this, almost everyone seems to gravitate to a "you're either for us or against us" position. Why is it so hard to see that there are multiple sub-issues embedded in this situation?

Yes, we ARE almost all either immigrants or descendants of them, but that is hardly a reason for continuously allowing in anyone who, for any reason, decides they want to come here and manages to avoid the legal process.
Yes, we need seasonal farm workers and some others....but what we are GETTING are millions of poor, undocumented folks with few skills, who don't speak the language, but require health services and who often resort to crime when jobs are in short supply.

   There are hospitals whose emergency rooms are at saturation because they are committed to treat everyone, but can't cope with the increase. We have schools who can't provide enough multi-lingual classes and who have multi-cultural discipline problems.

Yet, we still want to be a country which is welcoming to diverse cultures and tries to be fair and allow reasonable immigration to honest immigrants from MANY countries.

The mathematics is complex, but some obvious parts are simple...we cannot allow unlimited access to everyone who can sneak in! People must be assimilated, not just allowed to create a plethora of mini-ghettos in large cities, and a shadowy sub-culture in rural areas.

This is not....or SHOULD NOT...be a matter of political correctness, it should be a matter of fairness tempered by practicality.

   I see politician everyday now making statements based not on sense, but on what they see as the position that will get them votes...Crap!

I am tired of defenses based on just evoking sympathy, or on economics. Yes, 'most' folks we are concerned with are honest and hungry and just trying to survive, and yes, we need some workers to fill certain economic slots, but we cannot absorb everyone who might want to come here!
We MUST find a solution that deals will ALL aspects of the issue....and, I'm sorry, but that will mean disappointing some.


I could go on for many paragraphs detailing all the sub-issues involved, but you already know most of them, and I have work to do.

Please don't try to reduce all of them to some slogan.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:11 PM

Yes, we need seasonal farm workers and some others....but what we are GETTING are millions of poor, undocumented folks with few skills, who don't speak the language, but require health services and who often resort to crime when jobs are in short supply.


You speaking from a personal head-count here, Bill? Soounds like one of those logical fallacies you are fond of -- sweeping generalizations. And a couple of others.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:16 PM

Bill--I agree with everything you've said here.

          One of the things that puzzles me is, often many of the folks who constantly defend the environment are the same people who want to throw open the gates for poor immigrants. Most people have sympathy for the people, but more people in America certainly will place a greater strain on resources.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:38 PM

Globalization is helping NO one except the rich. Understand that and you'll understand why poor people wish to go to better places. (Folks rob banks because that's where the money is.)

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:39 PM

"You speaking from a personal head-count here, Bill? "

Why, no, Amos...I am speaking in response to many, many stories from news reports detailing those problems from government agencies, school districts and interviews with hospital workers and others directly affected...why do you ask? Do you think *I* would just invent those stories? Do you require that I post all my sources for the last 10-12 years? Of course, a sweeping gereralization MAY, in fact, be true.

In any case, whether I can satisfy your need for unlimited specificity or not, the fact remains that the basic fact in unaltered...that the USA cannot absorb unlimited immigrant growth.

Here is a hospital system in my area which is on the verge of closing...partially because they are swamped by the uninsured.

http://www.topix.net/forum/city/annapolis-md/TFKUA6RESACKCIB79

http://pgcares.newsvine.com/_news/2007/04/17/668759-patients-doctors-sure-hospitals-worth-saving-washingtonpostcom

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:45 PM

"Understand that and you'll understand why poor people wish to go to better places."

I understand that quite well...there are several ways to deal with that problem....help make where they are better (politically, economically, etc), reduce the population trying to subsist in their home countries to match the carrying capacity of the land, and...obviously, allow some to emigrate to other countries.

ALL of these require planning and organization...not random rushing about.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:46 PM

OK, Bill ... sorry I sniped at you, but you usually present your stuff more rigorously.

Here is a good editorial, albeit with an anti-liberal tenor to it, on some of the numbers, and what might consittute a rational middle ground in addressing the problem.


A

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Bert
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:47 PM

... I wouldn't be at all surprised if suddenly a lot of those who paraded find themselves taking a little trip down south and not coming back...

Actually, most deportees are back within a few weeks.


...By employing people at an impossibly low rate, these employers do nothing to improve the lives of their employees...

Many have skills and work at the going rate for the job. But even the underpaid ones are still doing better than they would back home, otherwise they'd just go back home.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:50 PM

The name of the game is usury. Make a profit and screw the workers. It has been thus for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:55 PM

Yes, Amos...that's a good article about many of the issues. It doesn't solve them...but it gives us talking points.

One such is the law that says any baby born in the US is automatically a citizen. That law was written when we didn't have quite the problems we do now. I wonder if it doesn't need amending.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 01:04 PM

"One such is the law that says any baby born in the US is automatically a citizen."

             It's my understanding that there is legislation being proposed now that would change this "anchor baby" law. They think they can do it without changing the 14th Amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 07 - 01:08 PM

hmmm...hadn't heard about that. I'd like to read the wording.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 07 - 01:13 PM

Shades of Dred Scott!!! Give me a break.

From the United States Constitution, Amendment 14:

"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. "


A

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 07 - 01:16 PM

Sorry, Amos.

Once you admit that times have changed, obviously the PAST amendments to the Constitution, like the 2nd, are subject to being altered to the present view of what is best for the present population.

Or have I misunderstood all the talk about gun control?

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 07 - 01:18 PM

I would feel better about the changes if they were not being driven by Bush and Neocons.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: heric
Date: 02 May 07 - 01:21 PM

It was a good article but it didn't resolve Amos' first point about the generalization. I have a feeling (without supporting evidence) that an anticipated/expected/accepted link between illegal immigrants and property crime is very tenuous. There are those among us who enjoy accepting it as true and as justification for unfounded and even malicious bias which should not be encouraged.

If there was a strong link between undocumented immigrants and property crime I would expect it to be fairly easy to document.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 07 - 01:47 PM

Dobbs: A peculiar day for immigration rallies
POSTED: 11:54 a.m. EDT, May 2, 2007

More on CNN TV: Watch Lou's prime time special, "Broken Borders," a town hall meeting on immigration from Hazelton, Pennsylvania tonight at 8 p.m. ET.
By Lou Dobbs
CNN

Editor's Note: Lou Dobbs' commentary appears weekly on CNN.com.

NEW YORK (CNN) -- What a spectacle, what a mess. What a day for thousands and thousands of illegal aliens and their supporters to march through the streets of many of our biggest cities demanding amnesty for illegally entering the country.

Tuesday was given over to illegal aliens and their supporters to demand forgiveness for using fraudulent documents and assisting others in entering this country illegally. What a day for illegal aliens and their supporters to demand not only amnesty but also the end to immigration raids and an end to deportations.

May Day was a peculiar choice for those demonstrations, a day in many countries in which international socialism is celebrated and a reminder of those old Soviet Union military parades.

It was also an unfortunate and ironic choice on the part of the organizers of the demonstrations. May 1 in the United States is actually Law Day, a day first established by President Eisenhower in 1958 and ultimately codified into law in 1961 at the beginning of John F. Kennedy's administration. The purpose of Law Day is to give all Americans an opportunity to reflect on our legal heritage, and by statute, encourages "the cultivation of the respect for law that is so vital to the democratic way of life."

I'll bet you know about the illegal alien amnesty marches, but I don't know of a single news organization, electronic or print that pointed out that May 1 is America's Law Day. The cable news networks gave almost wall-to-wall coverage to the illegal alien demonstrations, but they apparently couldn't find any American celebrating Law Day.

And no one seems to want to take note that we are first a nation of laws, and that without those laws and their enforcement, the foundation of our great republic turns to sand. What a spectacle on Law Day for demonstrators to demand amnesty for those who broke the law to enter our country, many of whom also broke the law with fraudulent documents.

And what a mess when the president of the United States and the U.S. Congress are pandering to a group of people who are not citizens and refuse to demand enforcement of our immigration laws, our criminal laws, and fails to secure our borders and ports.

I couldn't help but wonder as I watched monitors bringing images of the marches and demonstrations from all across the country, who should really be protesting on May Day. What about the millions of legal residents who followed the long, drawn-out process to secure a visa to enter the United States lawfully? Maybe they should be protesting. What about the seven-figure backlog at the Citizenship and Immigration Services agency of people who are following the rules. Should they demonstrate?

What about all of our fellow Americans who are being marginalized by the massive importation of illegal, low-cost and mostly uneducated labor into this country? Perhaps those citizens should take to the streets. And what about the more than 250 million Americans who make up our middle class and those who aspire to it whose wages have stagnated and who are paying for the social, medical and economic costs of illegal immigration? That's a big march.

If yesterday's demonstrators and their supporters in Congress and corporate America are serious about their deep desire for American citizenship, why don't we hear any of them clearly say they're willing to give up dual citizenship? Or that they're willing to learn English and surrender demands of bilingual education? Or declare they embrace English as our official national language? Or demand that illegal employers of illegal aliens pay for the social, educational and medical costs now borne by the taxpayers?

Yesterday was Law Day. I hope that we celebrate Law Day with a great national enthusiasm next May 1. I guarantee you I'll march in that demonstration.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the writer.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 02:39 PM

H.R. 1940 (Birthright Citizenship Act of 2007) - would eliminate birthright citizenship for the children born to illegal aliens in the United States by limiting the granting of such citizenship to the children of: (1) U.S. citizens or nationals; (2) lawful permanent resident aliens residing in the United States; and (3) aliens performing active service in the armed forces. Rep. Nathan Deal (R-Ga.) is the measure's main sponsor.
Cosponsors

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 07 - 02:48 PM

Nathan Deal's voting record.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 07 - 02:51 PM

Riginslinger, the reason produce harvesting isn't mechanized is that it can't be. For crops that can be mechanically harvested (some root crops, cotton), small farmers cannot survive; the machines are too expensive.
As costs rise, produce is obtained from outside the country; mechanize or use unskilled local labor and prices skyrocket. In our groceries here we are getting fine tomatoes from Guatemala and Mexico; grapes come from Chile and South Africa, canteloupe from Central America. These are fine, hand-picked fruits. Hand-trimmed and carefully packed lettuce and greens from California, etc., will remain affordable only so long as skilled immigrant pickers remain in the fields- the price goes up and Mexico-Central America will become the source. Goodbye produce farmers!

Beardedbruce, Simple-minded Lew Dobbs is ignorant of much of American law. My children have dual citizenship, living in Canada with emigrated parents. Many who work overseas for American companies are required to take out citizenship of the country in which they work. The regulations are varied depending on countries involved and international agreements between them.

Mind-addled Lou and his bigoted demands for English only never mentions the large territory involved in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
In the constitution of the state of New Mexico, section 5 states "The rights, privileges and immunities, civil, political and religious guaranteed to the people of New Mexico by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo shall be preserved inviolate."
New Mexico's constitution recognizes the state as officially bilingual. (One of three families in New Mexico speak Spanish at home).
Section 10 of the Constitution: "Children of Spanish descent in the state of New Mexico shall never be denied the right and privilege of admission and attendance in the public schools or other educational institutions of the state, and they shall never be classed in separate schools, but shall forever enjoy perfect equality with other children in all public schools and educational institutions of the state, and the legislature shall provide penalties for the violation of this section. This section shall never be amended except upon a vote of the people of this state, in an election at which at least three-fourths of the electors voting in the whole state and at least two-thirds of those voting in EACH county in the state shall vote for such amendment."

Other states in territory obtained from Mexico and subject to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo have similar allowances.

New Mexico hires teachers from Spain and Latin America, in conformance with Section 8 of the Constitution which states "The legislature shall provide for the training of teachers in the normal schools or otherwise so that they may become proficient in both the English and Spanish languages ...."

(Dobbs twists other laws, statutes agreements and treaties in his rants, especially with regard to China.)

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 07 - 03:00 PM

"The regulations are varied depending on countries involved and international agreements between them."

So, why is it the US has to allow people in violation of those regulations?

We aretalking about those who are here illegally: I have no problem with anyone, of any nationality, who comes here legally. But I know many who have bben trying to get here, to be slowed down by the legal process: YOU seem to say that those who violated the law should be allowed to benefit from that, and be made citizens without the efforts required of legal immigrants.

As for your comments of "Simple-minded Lew Dobbs " and "Mind-addled Lou ", if you wish to argue the points he brings up, fine- If you want to attack those who think differently than you do, please got to Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 04:24 PM

"My children have dual citizenship, living in Canada with emigrated parents."

             I think "dual citizenship" is something that ought to be eliminated as well.



                "Goodbye produce farmers!"

             Not that I think it's a good thing, but with the introduction on ethanol based fuels all the space is going to be taken up with corn anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 May 07 - 04:40 PM

So, where did tarheel go in all this?

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 07 - 04:54 PM

It seems to me there's a lot of "whose ox is being gored" going on in this matter.

Anyone who has any relatives trying to gain access or citizenship, or who has any financial interest in easy access for their friends, relative or employees asserts the set of arguments which tend to support them.

What we need is laws and procedures which are in the best interests of the country as a whole. Achieving this is not a simple process, as there is NO way to make a decision that does not upset or inconvenience some group. When I see videos of protests, or listen to interviews of supporters for amnesty and easy immigration, I hear very little reasoned explanations....I hear emotional pleas based on buzz words ("we're not criminals") and attempts to sway public opinion with alternating threats of economic disaster and international condemnation.

Now I see that Lou Dobbs is being called names and accused of ignorance and bigotry based on his continued calls for stopping the export of jobs and import of largely illegal immigrants. Dobbs has opponents on his program and debates with them politely. Listen to ALL of what he says, not just the parts that you disagree with. HE knows it is not an easy problem to solve, but he also is not afraid to explain why the status quo is not working.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 07 - 05:50 PM

1. Without comprehensive rewrite of regulations and renegotiation of international agreements it is impossible to apply direct simple (and legal) rules that apply to all immigrants.
2. It is physically impossible to remove 12 million undocumented immigrants. Actions so far in congress indicate that this is realized by legislators. Some sources, esp. South and East Asian nations, have indicated that they will not accept returned immigrants (1,371,000 estimated from that region alone, 2000 Census, http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/demographics/20060406/5/1809).
3. Studies in the journal "Tax Lawyer" (Spring 2006) of the American Bar Assn. Section of Taxation, and "Harvard Latino Law Review*" (vol. 9) by F. J. Lipman assert that "undocumented immigrants actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services" and "contribute to the U. S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services, filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs."
* http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/llr/vol. 9/lipman.pdf

4. The director of the Yale Center for the Study of Globalization, Ernesto Zedillo, asserts that illegal immigrants are only a drain on government services "when they are incapable of paying taxes; and that this incapacity is the result of restrictive federal policies that require proof of citizenship." He shows that the U. S. economy has "crucial" need for migrant workers, and that the current debate must acknowledge this rather than just focus on enforcement (Forbes, "Migranomics Instead of Walls," 1-8-2007, pp. 25-)

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 May 07 - 06:22 PM

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that an individual named Ernesto Zedillo has concluded that immigrants are needed to do work in America, and that Forbes would publish the study.

            Of course, Forbes and friends would want to see lower wages in America, they don't have to work for them.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 07 - 06:41 PM

"So, where did tarheel go in all this? "

No doubt to church!

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 07 - 09:13 AM

The New Colossus
- Emma Lazarus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


'Bout time to tear down thar frickin' statue, then.

Or, as Lou Reed would have it:

"Give us your tired your poor-
Piss on 'em!
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says."

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 May 07 - 10:19 AM

I guess when you've got too many people, you've simply got too many people. I think that's where the US is at.

Subject: RE: BS: illegals prove they are not needed ...
From: Amos
Date: 03 May 07 - 10:28 AM

Too many people for what?

Do you have any IDEA how much space there is in this country that is unused for productivre purposes? I think what we have is not too many people, but too little imagination, too little vision, and too little organizing talent.


A