BS: Another war in the Middle East?

Subject: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:03 AM

from the Washington Post:

Rocket From Gaza
The Middle East is on the brink of another summer war.

Friday, May 18, 2007; Page A22


FROM DAMASCUS, Hamas leader Khaled Meshal yesterday hailed what he called "a historic opportunity." He was referring to the death of several members of his own Islamic movement in airstrikes by Israel. Even while engaged in bloody street fighting with the rival Palestinian Fatah movement in the Gaza Strip this week, Hamas has been firing scores of crude rockets at the Israeli town of Sderot, hoping to draw the Israeli military into a fight in Gaza that would mimic its costly invasion of Lebanon last summer and unite Palestinians behind Hamas's extremist agenda. By last night, Mr. Meshal was dangerously close to getting his wish.

The growing willingness of Arab and European states to tolerate and even aid the Hamas movement has been based on the notion that Hamas could be coaxed toward more civilized behavior and tacit recognition of Israel; that is why many supported the creation of a "unity" government of Hamas with the secular and more moderate Fatah. But Mr. Meshal and his sponsors in Syria and Iran have a very different agenda: to use force to intimidate and eventually dominate Fatah, and to wage an unending war of attrition against Israel. That's the same course that Hezbollah, another proxy of Iran and Syria, has been pursuing in Lebanon.

Israel's dilemma is that it cannot stop rocket attacks from Gaza without invading and reoccupying the territory -- and maybe not even then -- but it also cannot indefinitely tolerate daily attacks on its own citizens and their homes. The government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, which already is under heavy pressure to resign because of its failure to defeat Hezbollah, knows it is being invited into what Hamas regards as a trap, but the government hasn't found an alternative other than the limited airstrikes it launched yesterday. The government has resisted parts of a security plan offered by a U.S. envoy, Lt. Gen. Keith W. Dayton, that calls for Israel to help bolster a Fatah security force to check Hamas. It has also refused to extend a now-ruptured cease-fire from Gaza to the West Bank because it calculates that its operations against Palestinian militants in the West Bank are preventing suicide bombings in Israel.

Western and Arab intervention offers the best hope of heading off a war in Gaza that could easily spread back to Lebanon, and beyond. Egypt, which has allowed Hamas to smuggle hundreds of tons of weapons and explosives, needs to act decisively to seal its border with Gaza. Saudi Arabia and other Arab states should step up pressure on Hamas and on Syria, which is helping Hezbollah rearm in Lebanon. The Bush administration, which has focused much of its energy on a far-fetched attempt to start talks about a final Israeli-Palestinian settlement, needs to urgently mobilize its allies in pursuit of a more basic goal: preventing another summer war.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:06 AM

more from the Washington Post:
Prelude to the Six Days

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, May 18, 2007; Page A23

There has hardly been a Middle East peace plan in the past 40 years -- including the current Saudi version -- that does not demand a return to the status quo of June 4, 1967. Why is that date so sacred? Because it was the day before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in which Israel scored one of the most stunning victories of the 20th century. The Arabs have spent four decades trying to undo its consequences.

In fact, the real anniversary should be now, three weeks earlier. On May 16, 1967, Egyptian President Gamal Nasser ordered the evacuation from the Sinai Peninsula of the U.N. buffer force that had kept Israel and Egypt at peace for 10 years. The United Nations complied, at which point Nasser imposed a naval blockade of Israel's only outlet to the south, the port of Eilat -- an open act of war.

How Egypt came to this reckless provocation is a complicated tale (chronicled in Michael Oren's magisterial "Six Days of War") of aggressive intent compounded with miscommunication and, most fatefully, disinformation. The Soviet Union had reported urgently and falsely to its Middle East clients, Syria and Egypt, that Israel was massing troops on the Syrian border for an attack. Israel desperately tried to disprove this charge by three times inviting the Soviet ambassador in Israel to visit the front. He refused. The Soviet warnings led to a cascade of intra-Arab maneuvers that in turn led Nasser, the champion of pan-Arabism, to mortally confront Israel with a remilitarized Sinai and a southern blockade.

Why is this still important? Because that three-week period between May 16 and June 5 helps explain Israel's 40-year reluctance to give up the fruits of that war -- the Sinai Peninsula, the Golan Heights, the West Bank and Gaza -- in return for paper guarantees of peace. Israel had similar guarantees from the 1956 Suez war, after which it evacuated the Sinai in return for that U.N. buffer force and for assurances from the Western powers of free passage through the Straits of Tiran.

All this disappeared with a wave of Nasser's hand. During those three interminable weeks, President Lyndon Johnson did try to rustle up an armada of countries to run the blockade and open Israel's south. The effort failed dismally.

It is hard to exaggerate what it was like for Israel in those three weeks. Egypt, already in an alliance with Syria, formed an emergency military pact with Jordan. Iraq, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Libya and Morocco began sending forces to join the coming fight. With troops and armor massing on Israel's every frontier, jubilant broadcasts in every Arab capital hailed the imminent final war for the extermination of Israel. "We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants," declared PLO head Ahmed Shuqayri, "and as for the survivors -- if there are any -- the boats are ready to deport them."

For Israel, the waiting was excruciating and debilitating. Israel's citizen army had to be mobilized. As its soldiers waited on the various fronts for the world to rescue the nation from its peril, Israeli society ground to a halt and its economy began bleeding to death. Army Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin, later to be hailed as a war hero and even later as a martyred man of peace, had a nervous breakdown. He was incapacitated to the point of incoherence by the unbearable tension of waiting with the life of his country in the balance, knowing that waiting too long would allow the armies of 100 million Arabs to strike first his country of 3 million.

We know the rest of the story. Rabin did recover in time to lead Israel to victory. But we forget how perilous was Israel's condition. The victory hinged on a successful attack on Egypt's air force on the morning of June 5. It was a gamble of astonishing proportions. Israel sent the bulk of its 200-plane air force on the mission, fully exposed to antiaircraft fire and missiles. Had they been detected and the force destroyed, the number of planes remaining behind to defend the Israeli homeland -- its cities and civilians -- from the Arab air forces' combined 900 planes was . . . 12.

We also forget that Israel's occupation of the West Bank was entirely unsought. Israel begged King Hussein of Jordan to stay out of the conflict. Engaged in fierce combat with a numerically superior Egypt, Israel had no desire to open a new front just yards from Jewish Jerusalem and just miles from Tel Aviv. But Nasser personally told Hussein that Egypt had destroyed Israel's air force and airfields and that total victory was at hand. Hussein could not resist the temptation to join the fight. He joined. He lost.

The world will soon be awash with 40th-anniversary retrospectives of the war -- and exegeses on the peace of the ages that awaits if Israel would only to return to lines of June 4, 1967. But Israelis are cautious. They remember the terror of that June 4 and of that unbearable May when, with Israel in possession of no occupied territories whatsoever, the entire Arab world was furiously preparing Israel's imminent extinction. And the world did nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:39 PM

Arabs despair over Palestinian violence By MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press Writer
Thu May 17, 3:14 PM ET



CAIRO, Egypt - Arab governments appear at a loss how to stop the stunning wave of Palestinian factional fighting, which threatens to wreck the region's already faltering efforts to resume the Arab-Israeli peace process.

Arabs watched television footage of the Gaza fighting in despair. "May God curse you all," Egyptian columnist Ahmed Ragab wrote, referring to the Palestinian factions.

The chaos is a heavy blow to U.S. Arab allies who have tried for months to mediate an end to the disputes between the militant Hamas movement and the mainstream       Fatah faction led by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

Regional power Saudi Arabia has stayed silent about the clashes in Gaza since they began five days ago, a sign of its anger at the two sides and its reluctance to get involved.

The kingdom put its political clout on the line in February when it hosted a summit between Abbas and Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal aimed at ending a previous bout of factional fighting. The summit in the holy city of Mecca ended with a deal on a Palestinian unity government that Saudi Arabia touted as a major breakthrough and is now in danger of collapse.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070517/ap_on_re_mi_ea/arabs_palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:41 PM

sorry about the ads...

no problem...j-clone

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 18 May 07 - 01:30 PM

Damn, I really sort of enjoyed the brief image I had of Mahmoud Abbas and Spiderman kickin' it old skool...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 19 May 07 - 12:15 PM

It is no surprise that factional fighting has broken out again in Gaza.
The Israelis have been squeezing the life out of the city for a long time with its blockade,the bombings,shellings checkpoints and so much more.
Life is intolerable there for the Palestinians and the blame for much of that is the Israeli government and its military forces.
The Palestinian children are malnourished and terrorised, economic life has been savaged, schools and apartments have been attacked and whole neighbourhoods wrecked and electricity stations destroyed.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 07 - 12:30 PM

It is inevitable that competing paramilitary groups within a wartorn country, both of which want to dominate the local agenda, will end up fighting one another as well as fighting what they see as their common enemy. Such things happen again and again in human conflict. Why should it surprise anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:46 PM

And much of the Arab world is angry with Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:27 AM

"The Israelis have been squeezing the life out of the city for a long time with its blockade,the bombings,shellings checkpoints and so much more.
Life is intolerable there for the Palestinians and the blame for much of that is the Israeli government and its military forces.
The Palestinian children are malnourished and terrorised, economic life has been savaged, schools and apartments have been attacked and whole neighbourhoods wrecked and electricity stations destroyed." - ifor.

I could not disagree with what you have written more. The peace prosperity and well-being of the "Palestinians" can be had at the drop of a hat - all they have to do is acknowledge the right of existence of the Sovereign State of Israel.

There would be no blockade, bombings, shellings or checkpoints if indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians ceased. The ability to prevent such attacks lies entirely in the hands of the Palestinian Authority.

No group of "refugees" has had so much aid thrown in their direction with such little result. Mainly because that lying, thieving prat, Arafat ripped it off - look there for the cause of your malnourished Palestinian children. Saddam Hussein in his time offered relief to Palestinian families provided one of their children agreed to blow themselves up.

As for - "economic life has been savaged, schools and apartments have been attacked and whole neighbourhoods wrecked and electricity stations destroyed." You give the impression that the terrorists mounting attacks on Israel stear well clear of such places and that Israel deliberately destroys them out of spite. Nothing could be further from the truth. The members of Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah deliberately embed themselves in such places and operate from them to provoke attack. Faced with the choice between which civilians die, Israel quite rightly, according to Little Hawk, responds with deliberate specifically targeted attacks on the rocket launching sites and weapons making facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 20 May 07 - 08:14 AM

Reply to Teribus
Actually you sound like an apologist for the Zionists who have stolen the land,homes,towns cities and orchards of the Palestinians for many decades.
While Jewish people across the world have the right to settle in Israel the Palestinians and their children and grandchildren have no such right and are indeed barred from returning to their homes and homeland.There is the source of the conflict!
Even Palestinian citizens of Israel who remained in their homes after the founding of the state of Israel are treated like fourth class citizens in Israeli law.
Gaza is one of the most overcrowded places in the world.Before 1948 it was essentially a stretch of sand dunes before being populated by Palestinians fleeing Israeli terror gangs and the new Israeli military forces.
Israel must be one of the most divided and psychologically disturbing countries in the world.Its rulers have built a well named apartheid Wall across the land ,chopping up villages and dividing them from their hinterland but despite the shootings,the bombings,the mass arrests and daily humiliations th Israeli State cannot subdue the Palestinian people.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:04 AM

"The members of Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah deliberately embed themselves in such places"

Wrong - they are their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:18 PM

"Actually you sound like an apologist for the Zionists who have stolen the land,homes,towns cities and orchards of the Palestinians for many decades."

BULLSHIT!

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:21 PM

Look to Hamas. You want the seat of the present problem, LOOK THERE. You have rewritten Israel's history on many other threads. Don't start the same bullshit on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:40 PM

To the misnamed Peace,
It obviously comes as a surprise to you that the state of Israel has lost the support of millions of people across the world.

It is a highly militarised ,oppressive and theocratic regime that has grown more thuggish with each passing decade.

The armed paramilitary settlers who are occupying the West Bank and Hebron are utter thugs who seem to think nothing about grabbing yet more land ,water and orchards from the Palestinians they are terrorising.

Mudcatters who want to see a little of the reality of the occupation might want to go to "Liveleak" to see these paramiliaries and their children at work, on camera , taunting ,threatening and assaulting Palestinians trying to get home from school or going about their daily business.
As for Hamas it has grown in influence and importance precisely because of the failure of the secular led Fatah parties in the face of the ruthlessness of the Israeli armed forces.
One last point an international report has come out this very week condemning Israel's policies with regard to East Jerusalem and the treatment of its Palestinian residents.
Heddwch
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:07 PM

To the racist, ifor. Piss on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:16 PM

When I see you post that the various Islamic countries that surround Israel are as concerned about the plight of the Palestinians as you feel the Israelis should be, I will begin to read what you have to say. AgFor tenth time on this and other threads you just come across as a Jew hater.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:35 PM

It is a typical of the Zionists to shout anti semite at any opponent of Israel's murderous policies towards the Palestinian people.Within a few posts you have resorted to a sort of inane incoherent name calling.

Israel has been led by three open terrorists in its fairly recent past so I can see where you get your hatred from.

Shamir,Begin and Sharon were all leaders of terrorist death squads in their time and Sharon of course is remembered throughout the world as the "Butcher of Beirut" unleashing slaughter on that city in the early 1980s and mass murder on the Palestinian camps .The Lebanese fascists did the wet work with their knives while the Israeli forces controlled the perimeter, provided intelligence and the floodlighta and gave the green light to begin the slaughter of thousands of old men,women and children.
His dirty work has continued like a thread with last summer's attack on the civilian population of Lebanon....the neighbourhoods bombed,civilian convoys slaughtered, refugees gunned down and so much more.
With friends like you Israel is in serious trouble.....its got the guns and the military machine but it will never subdue the Palestinian people who have lived on that land for thousands of years .
heddwch.... but with justice
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:37 PM

It is typical of Jew haters to find fault only with Israel and never with Israel's neighbours. Go choke on your own barf.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:16 PM

You've stepped ober the line Peace - change your handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:31 PM

"Mudcatters who want to see a little of the reality of the occupation might want to go to "Liveleak" to see these paramilitaries and their children at work, on camera , taunting ,threatening and assaulting Palestinians trying to get home from school or going about their daily business."

"typical of Jew haters to find fault only with Israel and never with Israel's neighbours"

Peace = your denial of such activity marks you as no different from those who deny the Holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:28 AM

On the subject of "stolen" land Guest ifor:

Gaza - captured, occupied and kept by the Egyptian Army in 1948, it was originally part of the "Jewish Homeland" during the Mandate.

Golan - Certain parts were captured, occupied and kept by the Syrian Army in 1948.

The West Bank - captured, occupied and kept by the Jordanian Army in 1948.

Ifor anyone can go to Israel, anyone can settle in Israel, provided that they recognise and acknowledge the right of the State of Israel to exist and to live peacefully and abide by the laws of the land.

Foolestroupe, CNN ran a documentary piece about a couple of days ago on the subject of rocket attacks on Israel from inside Gaza. The "Guides" were members of Hamas who showed CNN's reporter the whole process of rocket manufacture. The most dangerous part of the process was the production of the rocket propellant, fumes given off during this process apparently are highly toxic and had recently killed one of their number, this facility was based in a school - that is what I was meant when I stated that Hamas and other like-minded organisations embed themselves amongst the most vulnerable in society - but there again I believe that you did actually know that. Now were I a parent of any child at that school, I would tell Hamas to move their production facilities elsewhere - For this, myself and my family would probably be killed by those who are supposed to be "protecting" me and "fighting for my rights" - Right Foolestroupe.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:59 AM

"It is no surprise that factional fighting has broken out again in Gaza." - Guest ifor.

Any surprise or explanation for the fighting currently underway in North Lebanon ifor? Islamic Terrorist Group based within a "Palestinian" Refugee Camp who launched and attack upon Lebanese Army posts and units.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:15 AM

"Now were I a parent of any child at that school, I would tell Hamas to move their production facilities elsewhere"

But it is claimed that these are outsiders who do not care bout the locals, so you wold just be shot, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:22 AM

Who calims they are not local?
They are, and they use their own as human shields.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:38 AM

I haven't a clue as to whether or not they are locals Foolestroupe. But one thing is certain, neither they (the terrorist organisations), those who finance them, neighbouring Arab Governments or the elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people have EVER given a toss for the "Palestinian" people - that and that alone has been their biggest burden since 1948 and the greatest tragedy in the whole sorry mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:55 AM

And neither have most of the rest of the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 12:16 PM

Irrelevant Foolestroupe, those I mentioned have a duty and an obligation to do what is in the best interests of the "Palestinian" people. After nearly sixty years they should have by now come to the conclusion that the way forward does not lie in the purchase of arms, use of suicide bombers and the endless repetition of empty promises. Had the "Palestinian" people been given leadership instead of Tosser Arafat, they would be better off and more prosperous than Monaco according to the aid that has been thrown at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:09 PM

To Teribus
You mention the arms purchased by the Palestinians in the on going conflict...however it is Israel which is one of the most highly militarised [and ironically one of the most dangerous] places in the world today.
Israel has one of the largest armies in the world...it is equipped with all the latest military hardware from America ..and has a range of modern fighters,bombers,tanks ,artillery helicopter gunships etc which is more than ready to use against its enemies, and more accurately, civilian populations of neighbouring countries.

Any other country would have gone bankrupt from the cost of this arms economy but Israel is the largest recipient of US aid in the world.
While Palestinian suicide bombers get themselves blown up the equivalent Israeli bombers drop their high explosives or napalm on civilians and then go home for a nice cup of coffee and a dessert.

It is true that the Palestinian leadership has been poor but it is also true that the Israeli leaders are war criminals,human rights abusers and no respectors of the United Nations...and time and time again they have missed opportunities to make a lasting peace that involves justice for the Palestinians.
They have reaped a whirlwind and the events of last summer when they got a drubbing in Lebanon show that time is also running out for the warhawks in Israel.
The current Israeli president is facing rape charges which somehow epitomises the stature of the leaders in Israel today.Zionism is a dead end and a pessimistic and thuggish set of policies.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:38 PM

Nothing to say about Israeli land taken by force in 1948 then ifor?

Nothing to offer by way of explanation as to why people based in a "Palestinian" Refugee Camp in Northern Lebanon are attacking those who have given them refuge (Damn sight more than Syria ever offered - True?) Mind you those "Palestinian" Refugees in Lebanon are only sticking to previous form. When they were the guests of the Jordanians they tried to destabisle Jordan and overthrow the government there - That ifor was why they had to move to Lebanon - Tosser Arafat disappeared to Tunisia, where he made millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:47 PM

You say Fatah and I say Hamas....let's call the whole thing off.


F.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:22 PM

Up yours, Foolestroupe. The fact that you too hate Israel then makes your remarks about Israel noting much to read about. You claim to expect fairness for the Palestinian people but you don't want that for the Israelis. Crossed the line? Go admonish someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:23 PM

Let's see where you are really at, Foolestroupe. Has Hamas ever done anything wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:38 PM

And where we differ, Foolestroupe, is that I do see when Isreal is wrong. You and your friend have spent countless hours posting against Israel with never a bad word about anything the Palestinians or their neighbours do to contribute to the problem. Stepped over a line? Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:02 PM

"This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: "Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messenger, lo! Allah is strong, almighty.""

from the Hamas Charter (1988)

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:06 PM

And speaking of genocide: "A senior Hamas leader in Gaza declared that it was signed and sealed within his party that Israel would be wiped off the map and replaced by a Palestinian State, Israel Radio reported. He added that rockets and missiles were the means of removing Israel from the picture."

That is from the Jerusalem Post.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:16 PM

"Israel threatens to kill Hamas leaders"

Kuwait Times (?).

But then the lines are already drawn, aren't they, between those warmongering Jews and the peace-seeking folks in Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:28 PM

And the coming unrest in Lebanon. Gee, I wonder who Shaker Al-Absi really is?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:30 PM

One thing I think most of us can agree on is that the Bush foriegn policy toward the Middle East is a complete and utter failure...

I blame him for not continuing a foriegn policy of trying to cajole Middle Eastern folks to get along... This policy goes back to the days of Richard Nixon and continued thru half a dozen presidents, some which had more success than others but when Bush stole the office his first order was to tell his staff to do 180 degrees opposite what Clinton did, regardless of the issue...

This made his Christian Right and redneck base all warm and fuzzy but it sho nuff didn't help in the Middle East...

All this crap didn't have to happen...

BObert

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:29 AM

"The fact that you too hate Israel "

Peace - that's defamatory - I do not "hate Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:35 AM

"You and your friend have spent countless hours posting against Israel with never a bad word about anything the Palestinians or their neighbours do"

For a start , I have no 'friends' here on Mudcat - just a few acquaintainces I met thru the net - most of whom are polite.

"spent countless hours posting against Israel with never a bad word about anything the Palestinians or their neighbours do"

Wrong. Check my postings.

I think you've lost the plot and if you continue to spout wild defamatory accusations, I'll have to make a formal complaint against you. Take your meds, mate, I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Dickey
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:00 AM

"All this crap didn't have to happen" Run that by me again Bobert.

    * 1948 Arab-Israeli -War Truman
    * 1956 Suez War -Eisenhower
    * 1967 Six Day War -Johnson
    * 1970 War of Attrition -Nixon
    * 1973 Yom Kippur War -Nixon
    * 1982 Lebanon War -Reagan
    * 1987-1993 First Intifada -Reagan-Clinton (awk awk)
    * 1982-2000 South Lebanon conflict -Reagan-Clinton (awk awk)
    * 2000-2006 al-Aqsa Intifada Clinton(awk awk)-Bush
    * 2006 Lebanon War -Bush

Now which ones of these didn't have to happen?

You need to read this book It takes away the egos of the scholars who usually arm themselves with complicated conclusions so they can sound like they know what they are talking about when nobody, in 2,000 years, has been able to successfully navigate the Middle East to peace

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:24 AM

from the Washington Post:

Storm-Watching in Jordan

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, May 22, 2007; Page A15

AMMAN, Jordan -- The lobby of the Grand Hyatt Hotel here looks as it always has. The reception desk is to the right, the jewelry shop is off to the left, and straight ahead is the lounge area -- no hint that back in 2005, suicide bombers walked into this and two other hotels here and killed 59 people. Since then, nothing much has happened. Call it the quiet after the storm -- or, more likely, the quiet before the storm resumes.

Jordan, this oil-less concoction of a Middle East state, is as good a place as any to grasp the extent of the American debacle in Iraq. Jordan is also a place to understand that the debacle is not solely an American one and that the debate in Washington -- cut and run, stay the course, surge, don't surge -- has a meaning here far beyond domestic politics or even international morality. Soon, this country could have an awful fight on its hands.

Here is the scenario: The implication of a U.S. withdrawal/defeat would not be lost on any of the region's many extremist groups -- Hamas in Gaza; Hezbollah in Lebanon; al-Qaeda all over the place; and Iran behind the curtain, the puppet master of much regional terrorism. A withdrawal would empower, enthuse and just plain excite these groups. If America can be defeated in Iraq, then why not Jordan in Jordan or Egypt in Egypt -- to name just two pro-American regimes in this neck of the woods -- followed, of course, by the final battle with Israel? This is not the way the so-called war on terrorism was supposed to go.

more

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:56 AM

As Senator Barack Obama points out, "nobody has suffered more than the Palestinian people from the failure of the Palestinian leadership to recognize Israel, to renounce violence and to get serious about negotiating peace and security for the region."

Had the Palestinians opted for leadership that was not based totally on corruption (Arafat) or religious fundamentalism and fascism (Hamas), there would have been peace and a Palestinian state long ago. The vast majority of Israelis are starving for secure peaceful co-existence with a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:00 AM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:42 AM

"Wrong. Check my postings."

Then tell us all what Hamas has done that's bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:43 AM

"Take your meds, mate, I do."

Double the dose.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:54 AM

Besides, Foolestroupe (and there's no need for you to change YOUR name), my remarks to that other guy had nothing to do with you. You stuck your face in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: robomatic
Date: 22 May 07 - 12:41 PM

On the Gaza front there's the Hamas militia sending so many home made attack rockets into Israel that the Israelis have pulled people away from their own village.

On the Lebanese side the Lebanese army has taken on religious militant groups which true to form have withdrawn into the civilian depths of refugee camps. Now the UN wants to bring supplies in.

This is a long term problem which has not been directly addressed by the Arab parties in the Middle East - to resettle Palestinian refugees just as Israel has resettled Jewish AND Arab refugees. The unrealistic attempt to foist it all off on Israel has yet to be abandoned and the Saudis, Egyptians, and Syrians have yet to accept their own responsibilities in the area.

Jordan is already a Palestinian State.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:15 PM

U.N. Relief Convoy Hit in Lebanon Battle
AP - Tue, 22 May 2007 11:45:58 -0400 (EDT)
By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI
A convoy of U.N. relief supplies was hit in a third day of fighting Tuesday between Lebanese troops and an Islamic militant group holed up in a crowded Palestinian refugee camp.

In two other refugee camps in Lebanon, angry Palestinians burned tires to protest the Lebanese army assault on the northern camp of Nahr el-Bared. The unrest heightened fears that the military's attempt to crush the al-Qaida-inspired Fatah Islam could provoke a broader backlash among hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in other refugee camps, where Islamic extremists have been growing in influence.

Overnight, the Lebanese government ordered the army to finish off the militants who have set up in Nahr el-Bared, where 31,000 Palestinian refugees live on the outskirts of the northern port of Tripoli. At least 50 combatants have been killed since fighting erupted Sunday.

Black smoke billowed from the area Tuesday amid artillery and machine gun exchanges between troops and militants. Lebanese troops skirmished with Fatah Islam fighters, trying to seize militant positions on the outskirts of the camp.

"There are dead and wounded on the road, inside the camp," screamed a Lebanese woman, Amina Alameddine, who ran weeping from her home on the edge of the camp. She fled with her daughter and four other relatives after Fatah Islam fighters started shooting at the army from the roof of her house.

At the same time, Lebanese troops sought to flush out fighters hiding in Tripoli. Soldiers raided a building where Fatah Islam militants were believed to be hiding out, blasting an apartment with grenades, gunfire and tear gas.

They found no one in the apartment, but hours later, while pursuing a militant, they ordered him to surrender. He dropped a pistol but then detonated an explosives belt on his body, police officials said. None of the troops was injured.

Reports emerged from Nahr el-Bared of heavy destruction from the three days of bombardment by Lebanese artillery and tanks and militants who returned fire with mortars and automatic weapons.

"The shelling is heavy, not only on our positions, but also on children and women. Destruction is all over," Fatah Islam spokesman Abu Salim Taha told The Associated Press by telephone from inside the camp.

A U.N. refugee official said dozens of buildings were believed demolished, with residents trapped inside. There was also word that food and medical supplies were running out. The reports could not be confirmed because officials and reporters could not enter the camp.

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Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:24 PM

Truce broken at Lebanon camp; U.N. workers trapped

POSTED: 1:15 p.m. EDT, May 22, 2007

Story Highlights• NEW: Talks ongoing to help between 8 and 10 trapped U.N. workers
• Cease-fire broken as U.N. trucks fired on in Palestinian camp
• Fatah al-Islam militant blows himself up in Tripoli
• Up to 75 dead in fighting between Lebanese soldiers and militants

TRIPOLI, Lebanon (CNN) -- A truce declared by the militant group Fatah al-Islam in a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon ended soon after it was announced Tuesday, when a U.N. relief convoy in the camp came under fire.

A U.N. relief official in Beirut told CNN that three of the group's vehicles were hit, and between eight and 10 U.N. workers trapped inside the Nahr al-Bared camp were trying to get out.

Three other U.N. trucks managed to get out of the camp, which is outside Tripoli. It's not clear who fired on the convoy or whether it was specifically targeted. U.N. officials in Beirut said it wasn't known if anyone in the convoy had been injured. (Watch an explanation of what's behind the fighting )

CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson, reporting from Tripoli, quotes U.N. officials as saying they are negotiating with both the army and the militants for the safe passage of the aid workers stranded in the camp.

Battles between Lebanese soldiers and militants have killed at least 30 troops and as many as 25 militants, according to Bilal Aslan, who belongs to the Fatah movement of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. The fighting has also left 20 civilians dead, he said.

Earlier Tuesday, Fatah al-Islam had declared a unilateral cease-fire from 11:30 GMT (7:30 a.m. ET), and the Lebanese Army said it would not open fire unless fired upon.

Spokeswoman Hoda Samara, in Beirut for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, said the trucks were loaded with water, food and medical supplies.

She said the medical situation was particularly bad, as there is no hospital inside Nahr al-Bared and the agency's health center had been closed by the fighting.

Shortly after the cease-fire was announced, Aslan said Fatah al-Islam would pull all gunmen from the streets and prevent them from using the camp's rooftops to fire weapons.

Also, food supplies would be distributed to residents and the wounded would be evacuated to hospitals, Aslan said.

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