BS: Another war in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:24 PM

The problem for the Zionists and the Israeli state is that the Palestinian people will not go peacefully into the dustbin of history or be dispersed across the world without a struggle.
The Palestinian people have lived on the land that they call Palestine for thousands of years often alongside smaller Christian and Jewish populations for much of that time.
Quite reasonably they have objected to being expelled from the land of their birth.They have fought back when their homes and towns and farms and water supplies have been seized by the armed invaders. They want the right to return! The same right that Jewish people across the world have.
For decades they have been imprisoned in large numbers,pushed over the new borders,bombed,assassinated,humiliated at the checkpoints and tortured by the Israeli state apparatus [check out Amnesty and other Human Rights reports}
.All the posturing,blustering and menacing of the Zionists on Mudcat and elsewhere cannot hide the fact of the enormous injustice done to the people of Palestine and the resistance that is continuing to the Israeli state terror.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: robomatic
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:48 PM

The sufferings of the Palestinian people are incontrovertible and a shame on the Arab world.

After the birth of Israel and the partial resolution (by a battle of self defense) of the legitimate rights of the Jewish people to obtain access to their ancestral homeland, Jews were often forceably evicted from many Arab lands, Jews who had lived within them for longer than the religion of Islam has existed. Many of these Jews are descended from the original tribes and were and are indistinguishable ethnically from Arabs, who are, after all, cousins of the Jews.

The Arab and Muslim nations who evicted much of their Jewish populations and expropriated their property did not in turn make an effort to alleviate the very real problem of displaced non-Jewish Arabs who had often left their homes in anticipation of an Arab military victory over the Jews.

This is a shame, but it is not the fault of Israel. To blame Israel makes me recall the book "Unfair to Goliath" Goliath's mother and wife lament much as many current 'palestinians'

"My children keep asking, 'When is Daddy coming home? Has he killed all the Jews yet?'"

Unfortunately, rather than seeking compromise, peace, and resolution, too many of the Arabs and 'palestinians' have followed the road to hate, prejudice, and nazification in the name of a perverted approach to their own religion. And it is winding up as a war among Muslims, as a battle of Arabs on Arabs.

And it all could have been avoided.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:10 PM

Ifor,

"THE DIVISION OF THE MANDATE FOR PALESTINE

In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then or now and they were determined to get ALL of that remaining 25%. Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron slaughters of 1929 and later the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British, at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became obvious to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.

The year was 1922, the British were empowered by the League of Nations to fulfill the Mandate of Palestine drafted two years earlier at the San Remo Conference. The Mandate that they accepted, under article 4, obliged them "to secure the cooperation of all willing Jews" and "to assist in the establishment of the Jewish National home". However, in the same year, the 1922 White Paper written by Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill declared that Palestine should not be "as Jewish as England is English". This was allegedly to prevent partitioning the land into two (Arab and Jewish). Although the Churchill´s White Paper stated that the Mandate "is not susceptible of change" the British sliced 76% of the land, east of the Jordan River, and gave it Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia). That land was renamed Trans-Jordan. Not even a year had passed and Great Britain was in violation of Article 5 of its Mandate, which stated "no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of, the Government of any foreign Power." From this point on, Jewish immigration to newly partitioned Trans-Jordan was forbidden whilst a blind eye was turned to Arab immigration to the west [of the Jordan River], in complete violation of article 2, which demanded "safeguarding the civil rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion"."


Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:13 PM

"Quite reasonably they have objected to being expelled from the land of their birth."


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have denanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:24 PM

"Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism."


From here.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:09 PM

The Palestinian people have considered themselves to be "Palestinian " for many , many years.It is how they describe themselves and it is really not the role of others [American,French or indeed Welsh ] to argue that point with them.

What is clear is that the Palestinian people whether Muslim or Christian have lived on that land for thousands of years...of course alongside other people including a relatively small Jewish population.

Incidentally the largest Jewish population in the ancient world was probably in the city of Alexandria which is now in Egypy ].
The biblical claim for an exclusive Jewish presence on the Holy Land is relatively weak.

One of the points I am making is that Israel/Palestine has been historically occupied by many different peoples of varying cultures and religions.However,it was the Zionist invasions and occupation which began in the late 19th century which has poisoned relations in Israel /Palestine in particular but across the Middle East in general.
These Zionists have been backed by US and Western capitalist interests,hence the booming Israeli arms economy and military machine.

However for the indiginous pre Zionist Jewish community life has been difficult under a Jewish theocracy with many treated as second class citizens partly as a result of their dark skin but also because they were seen as fairly close to the Palestinian neighbours.

The settler paramilitary groups ,however, [often with US or Russian accents] are really swaggering goons with their uzi guns contempt for the Palestinians who they want to drive over the border.These are the goons who taunt,threaten and assault,steal water and land grab.Take a close look at their housing built like fortresses on hilltops and totally out of keeping with historical Palestine...they indeed paved Palestine and put up aparking lot and a shopping mall.

Tens of thousands will be marching in support of a "Free Palestine"in London in early June to show that the Palestinian decades long struggle has international support including the support of many Jewish people from around the world.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:00 PM

" exclusive Jewish presence "
???


Oh, you mean that ISRAEL, instead of having the large Moslem and Christen population that it does SHOULD be more like

Saudi Arabia, which allows ONLY Moslems to be citizens.

Jordan, which prohibits Jews from becoming citizens.

Or one of a host of OTHER nations, which require a specific religion to be a citizen of.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:09 PM

BTW, my questions still stand:

Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:43 PM

As Guest ifor seems reluctant for some reason to answer your question BB, the answers are as follows:

Question 1
Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

Answer
None it is against the law for a Jew to reside in Jordan under the terms of that country's Civil Law No. 6

Question 2
HOW many Moslems in Israel?

Answer
16.2% of the total population of 7.15 million people which means that there are approximately 1,158,300 Moslems living in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:45 PM

And ISRAEL is too exclusively Jewish for Ifor???????????

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:48 PM

Ifor,

Let me repeat, since you have not yet answered:

"Quite reasonably they have objected to being expelled from the land of their birth."


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 04:35 PM

Lebanon issues ultimatum to militants

By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI and SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writers
51 minutes ago


NAHR EL-BARED REFUGEE CAMP, Lebanon - Lebanon's defense minister issued an ultimatum Wednesday to Islamic militants barricaded in this Palestinian refugee camp to surrender or face a military onslaught.

Fighters from the al-Qaida-inspired       Fatah Islam militant group vowed not to give up and to fight any Lebanese assault.

Storming the Nahr el-Bared camp — a densely built-up town of narrow streets on the Mediterranean coast — could mean rough urban fighting for Lebanese troops and further death and destruction for the thousands of civilians who remain inside.

It could also have grave repercussions elsewhere across troubled Lebanon, sparking unrest among the country's estimated 400,000 Palestinian refugees. Already some of the other refugee camps in Lebanon, which are rife with armed groups, are seething with anger over the fighting.

But the military appeared determined to uproot Fatah Islam after three days of heavy bombardment of the camp, sparked by an attack by the militants on Lebanese troops Sunday following a raid on its fighters in the nearby northern city of Tripoli.

"Preparations are seriously under way to end the matter," Defense Minister Elias Murr said in an interview with Al-Arabiya television. "The army will not negotiate with a group of terrorists and criminals. Their fate is arrest, and if they resist the army, death."

Members of Fatah Islam said they were ready to fight.

"We are not going to let those pigs defeat us," said one of a half-dozen fighters standing outside the group's office inside the camp. The fighter, who identified himself with the pseudonym Abu Jaafar, wore a belt hung with grenades.

Another militant who said he was a deputy leader of the group said the fighters were willing to agree to a cease-fire if the military allowed them to remain in the camp.

But the militant, who gave his pseudonym as Abu Hureira, warned the troops would "face a massacre" if they attempt to enter Nahr el-Bared. It is unclear how many Fatah Islam fighters are in the camp, but Abu Hureira said they number more than 500.

Around half of Nahr el-Bared's 31,000 residents have fled since a halt in the fighting Tuesday night, some clutching babies and plastic bags full of clothes. They traveled on foot and in cars past burned-out shops on streets strewn with broken glass, garbage and dead rats.

But thousands remain behind, either too ill to travel or unwilling to abandon their homes, and are now in danger of being caught in the crossfire.

Ahmed Kanaan, 92, was staying in the camp with his 37-year-old daughter. "We are treated like dogs," said the old man, who fled his home in what is now the Israeli city of Nazareth in 1948 after the first Arab-Israeli war. "They step on us and continue walking."

"I would have been better off had Palestine died altogether" in 1948, he said.

Occasional gunshots broke the quiet at the camp Tuesday night, witnesses said, but there was no fighting during the day Wednesday. In the afternoon, the army brought seven more armored carriers to its positions ringing the camp, although the troops did not move beyond the front line.

Army officials in Beirut refused to comment on the reinforcements.

Murr said 30 Lebanese soldiers were killed in the three days of fighting, along with as many as 60 militants, including fighters from Lebanon, Jordan,       Syria and Saudi Arabia. But a top Fatah Islam leader said only 10 of his men were killed.

U.N. relief officials said the bodies of at least 20 civilians were retrieved from inside the camp during the lull in fighting.

The government appeared to be preparing in case the showdown sparks violence elsewhere in the country. In a sign of the danger, a bomb exploded Wednesday night in a mountain resort overlooking Beirut, a 90-minute drive south of Nahr el-Bared. The blast, which injured five people, was the third in the Beirut area since Sunday.

Fatah Islam denied responsibility for the other two bombings, which killed a woman and injured a dozen people. But many Lebanese fear more blasts if the siege continues.

After dark, soldiers have set up checkpoints across Beirut and its suburbs, stopping vehicles and searching male passengers as a precaution.

Lebanon has 12 Palestinian refugee camps, which are all plagued by poverty and overcrowding. The camps are home to many armed factions, as well as Islamic militant groups which have sent fighters to       Iraq to join the fight against U.S.-led coalition troops.

The Lebanese military stays out of the camps under a 1969 agreement that allows the Palestinians to run them.

Major Palestinian factions — including the mainstream Fatah and militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad groups — have distanced themselves from the militants in Nahr el-Bared. Unlike them, Fatah Islam adheres to al-Qaida ideology and appears to have a large number of non-Palestinian fighters.

But the Palestinian factions appeared divided over whether to send their fighters to help the Lebanese military against Fatah Islam.

Sultan Abuleinein, the Fatah chief in Lebanon, hinted his group might intervene, calling for the liberation of Nahr el-Bared from "the plague" of the militants in an interview with al-Arabiya television.

But Abbas Zaki, a PLO representative in Lebanon, denied that the major Palestinian factions supported a Lebanese storming of the camp or that they were willing to join. "Beware of being deceived that there is a decision by Fatah to fight," he told Al-Jazeera television.

A group claiming to be made up of Palestinians from Lebanon's largest refugee camp — Ein el-Hilweh — has posted a statement on an Islamic militant Web site warning that it would form "jihadi groups" — holy warriors — to fight alongside Fatah Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:31 PM

A few of the above seem to be an apologist for ethnic cleansing.....something the Zionists were very good at in 1948 when they conducted a systematic slaughter of Palestinian civilians in Palestine.This period was known as the Nakbha [or the catastrophe ] by the people of Palestine who were forced into exile for fear of being shot or baynotted by the Israeli death squads or military forces.

They had to watch traumatised as their villages and towns were bulldozed and their land ,orchards and farms confiscated and handed over to the invaders.

It is interesting that in one of the more recent Israeli attacks the IDF blew up the Palestinian Orient House where many of the pre Israel legal and land documents had been stored for reference and ownership purposes...all part of the process of writing the Palestinians out of the history of the their own land.

The Zionists who criticise above know better but bluster and blow to obscure the fact that Israel was founded on wholesale theft of land,ethnic cleansing,the use of Zionist terror squads and in defiance of UN resolutions.This whole savage business is being continued to this day with the invasion of Lebanon last summer,the strangulation of Gaza and the starving of its children,the theft of millions in tax from the Palestionian Gazans,the stealing of water supplies from the Jordan river by Israeli agribusiness and the building of the apartheid Wall and the continual encroachment of paramilitary settlements on Palestinian land.

Add all this to the wholesale imprisonment of adults and the bombing of civilians in Gaza and you end with one of the most disgraceful human rights situations in the world.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:50 PM

You have brown eyes, Ifor.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:12 AM

On the subject of "theft of land" Guest ifor, you have yet to give your views on those chunks of the demarcated "Jewish Homeland" grabbed as spoils of war by Egypt, Syria and Jordan during the 1948 War - or are your demands, energies and attention strictly focused upon what Israel must relinquish - that is what it looks like from the content of your posts.

So recently the IDF blew up the Palestinian Orient House did they Guest ifor, in order that land records relating to claims dating back to before 1948 could be destroyed as part of the process of "writing the Palestinians out of the history of the their own land". Couldn't have been that important, or of any real concern, to the Israeli's Guest ifor. If it was do you really think that they would have kept it on the "back-burner" for 59 years.

In 1922, Arabs in Palestine started killing Jews - can you tell us all how this came about Guest ifor?

The same thing happened again in 1929 - can you tell us about that Guest ifor?

It all happened again in the years 1936 to 1939, but this time there was a difference wasn't there Guest ifor, perhaps you could tell us all about it?

What happened in 1948 Guest ifor? How were things finally resolved? Was the State of Israel recognised by the United Nations? Why did the neighbouring Arab States renege on what they had agreed to? Where were Fedayeen attacks mounted from?

What happened in 1956 Guest ifor? How were things finally resolved? Was the State of Israel recognised by the United Nations? Why did the neighbouring Arab States renege on what they had agreed to? Where were Fedayeen attacks mounted from?

While you are at it Guest ifor do the same for 1967.

1973 another attack now what happened after this one Guest ifor that was markedly different to all the others?

Tell us about the "Palestinian" attempted coup in Jordan, Guest ifor. After all Guest ifor it might just give us a bit of insight into their latest attempt at destabilizing Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:30 PM

So, Ifor, NO answers to ANY of my questions????

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:42 PM

The Socialist Workers' Party doesn't answer questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:53 PM

Guest, ifor seems to be interested in diatribes and pre-arranged speaking points, which accounts for his/her non-engagement with the thread, i.e. doesn't respond to specific points but re-iterates propaganda and straw horse arguments.

Too bad, because a more engaged response would result in a more meaningful thread.

As a start, Guest, ifor, try making specific responses to my previous posts in this thread.

TYVM

robo

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:36 PM

you raise lots of points that I will try to answer.You wont like my answers.

Firstly the writers of the above are out and out Zionists who basically believe that the Palestinian people have few if any rights at all...indeed I suspect that to even use the term "Palestinian" is like a red rag to a bull for most of them.

Secondly none seem to really deny the historic fact that the Palesinians were ethnically cleansed from their land .....it seems to be an irrelevance to the above ,but for the real life Palestinians it is overriding factor in their lives...the fact that they have been exiled,bombed,half starved,humiliated, imprisoned and beaten up by thugs who are proud to call themselves Zionists.

There is also a deliberate confusion betwen the Palestinan people and those who have led them .The leadership has been poor,ill judged and worse...but that does not negate the legitimate claim of the Palestinians to receive justice in international law and common humanity.

The state of Israel has used its mighty military machine,backed by the power of the USA and others including the UK to pulverise the Palestinian resistance for decades but for some strange reason the Palestinians will not lie down and die or crawl away....the resistance keeps reasserting itself through the Intifadas,through peaceful and armed resistance and through cultural struggle.Palestinian consciousness is probably greater now than ever before despite the factional fighting in Gaza.

And for many across the world the mask of plucky little Israel has slipped to reveal the racism,the horror and the mass murder that has accompanied the Zionists in their attempt to wipe out the Palestinians from their land.Ithas been a long road from Deir Yassin to the slaughterhouse camps in Beirut ,the illegal occupation of the West Bank,the annexation of East Jerusalem ,the mass murder of civilians ,Palestinians and Lebanese last summer,the Apartheid Wall and the deliberate starving of over a million Palestinians in the large prison we call Gaza.Tens of thousands of children are malnourished and half starved in Gaza as a deliberate consequence of Israeli political policy but the Israelis will not be able to kill them all and they will grow up to become the next generation of fighters.Is that what Israel really wants?
And by the way the aura of Israeli invincibility has gone probably never to return....despite its napalm,F16s .apache gunships,merkova tanks,cluster bombs,high explosives,warships and assassination squads the Israeli military took a pounding in the hills of Lebanon last summer...despite the military aid provided by the USA and the UK which both took a prominent role in the resupply of the bombs and rockets used to destroy the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon.

I dont think for one moment that any of the hardened Zionists reading this will change their views but there are millions across the world including many Jewish people who are sickened by the dead end murderous solutions of the Zionists.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:38 PM

Socialist Workers' Party response 101. SSDD.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:03 PM

Ifor,

You have failed to address even one of my questions.


Let me repeat them:

Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have denanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:43 PM

I have to laugh at the mention of the Socialist Workers Party because it was actually fouded by a Palestine born Jew called Ygael Gluckstein who later took the name Tony Cliff.

He was born in Palestine in 1917 into a Zionist family but as a young teenager broke with the Zionists when he saw the savage way Palestinian workers were treated by Zionist thugs.He actually had his arm broken by some of these goons when he spoke in defence of Palestinian workers when he was 15. A few years later he had to flee from Palestine after further death threats by the Zionists....so not much has changed then.

Tony Cliff certainly knew about Zionism at first hand...he saw that the road of the early Zionists had set out on would lead to a murderous dead end and for the rest of his long life he was an implacable foe of Zionism and a supporter of a free Palestine and a secular democratic state in Palestine/Israel .

The SWP has many Jewish members and I would recommend the book by John Rose on Zionism which has been a massive critique of the traditional viewof history has set out by the Zionists and their supporters.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:59 PM

Ifor,

My questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:10 PM

Bearededbruce,

Honestly, what's the point of arguing with the Ifors of this world?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:41 PM

IFOR - Thanks for writing, here goes:

Firstly the writers of the above are out and out Zionists who basically believe that the Palestinian people have few if any rights at all...indeed I suspect that to even use the term "Palestinian" is like a red rag to a bull for most of them.

This is an ad hominem attack. Machts nichts except it is actually a compliment to your opponents when you attack them rather than their arguments.

Secondly none seem to really deny the historic fact that the Palesinians were ethnically cleansed from their land .....it seems to be an irrelevance to the above ,but for the real life Palestinians it is overriding factor in their lives...the fact that they have been exiled,bombed,half starved,humiliated, imprisoned and beaten up by thugs who are proud to call themselves Zionists.

Your response is totally one sided. You are glossing over the historical development of a Jewish return to ancestral homelands, which occurred over time and multiple paths, and the very real antagonism facing Jews just for being Jews, the persecution of indigenous Jews in the area, and the fact that the "palestinians" were displaced as a consequence of a war that was not begun by the Jews. And of course, at the present time there IS a population of Arabs in Israel, WHERE is the population of Jews in any particular Arab country of the Middle East?

There is also a deliberate confusion betwen the Palestinan people and those who have led them. The leadership has been poor,ill judged and worse...but that does not negate the legitimate claim of the Palestinians to receive justice in international law and common humanity.

"deliberate confustion" implies you are a mind reader. I think there is some confusion is on your side and I don't presume to state whether it is deliberate. But you are not completely confused. I am encouraged that you have a poor opinion of the Palestinian leadership, as do I, except I had some respect for Hanan Ashrawi. I think Arafat was a corrupt megalomanic disaster. As for whether or not poor leadership can negate the legitimate claim of the Palestinians to receive justice, that depends on what constitutes a legitimatre claim. A man who is wronged by another man is not necessarily within his rights to blow him up.

The state of Israel has used its mighty military machine,backed by the power of the USA and others including the UK to pulverise the Palestinian resistance for decades but for some strange reason the Palestinians will not lie down and die or crawl away....the resistance keeps reasserting itself through the Intifadas,through peaceful and armed resistance and through cultural struggle.Palestinian consciousness is probably greater now than ever before despite the factional fighting in Gaza.

I have plenty of respect for the intelligence and tenacity of those who call themselves Palestinians. I suggest it is misapplied, partly due to the mis-education of so many, and the poor leadership mentioned above.

And for many across the world the mask of plucky little Israel has slipped to reveal the racism,the horror and the mass murder that has accompanied the Zionists in their attempt to wipe out the Palestinians from their land........ the UK which both took a prominent role in the resupply of the bombs and rockets used to destroy the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon.

One could easily take your whole paragraph, and substitute "Shiite" for Palestinian and "Sunni" for Israeli. Early in your response, you started with some reasonableness and logic, now you are sinking fast to diatribe. During the Summer you had little else to say but this kind of popular front loggorhea. This kind of Arab inspired violence whether it be in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, has led to an enormous amount of Arab on Arab violence.

I dont think for one moment that any of the hardened Zionists reading this will change their views but there are millions across the world including many Jewish people who are sickened by the dead end murderous solutions of the Zionists.

So how many tickets to "My name is Rachel Corrie" can I sell ya?
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 07 - 10:03 PM

Here's one for you Guest ifor - the Jews are as much "Palestinians" as the "Palestinians" that you so proudly support. The term was invented by Tosser Arafat to form a basis by which he could "con" the world - he suceeded, unfortunately not to the benefit of his invented "Palestinian" people but entirely for himself and his family.

Now the answers to the questions that you so assiduously evaded:

1922 - The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Tosser Araft's Uncle) deliberately spread lies about Jews killing Arabs in order to instigate a racial and religious conflict which up until that time never existed. Fair enough Guest ifor - please contradict me if you find anything in error in what I am writing.

Tosser Arafat's Uncle then persuades the British that he is the only person who can restore the peace, the Brits are foolish enough to believe him.

1929 - The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Tosser Arafat's Uncle) once again deliberately spreads lies about Jews killing Arabs, this time he does not get away completely "Scot Free".

1936 to 1939 Tosser's Uncle foments the "Arab Revolt", this time however the Jews have learned not to trust to the protection of the British administrators, they have organised their own defence and hit back, rather effectively.

Still with me Guest ifor - this is factual history not your Socialist Workers Party tripe. Please feel free to contradict and back up with facts of your own - I somehow doubt that you will manage that - you've answered fuck all up to now.

Second World War intervenes and Tosser's Uncle disappears to be Hitlers guest for the duration in which Tosser's Uncle raises an SS Unit in the Balkans (Pictures of him reviewing the troops and handing out medals to his brave boys for rounding up men, women and children to feed the gas chambers).

1948 British Mandate expires, Arabs have refused to recognise the UN deliniated borders and attack Jewish Settlements. The Jews are more than prepared for this onslaught and kick seven bells out of the numerically superior and better equipped Arab Forces. The UN intervenes and a ceasefire is established, the State of Israel is recognised, Egypt has bitten of a chunk of Israel called Gaza, Syria has gobbled up part of Israel on the banks of the Sea of Gallilea and the Golan Heights and Jordan has stolen the West Bank. But peace reigns - or does it? Not on your fuckin' life. Too shit scared to openly attack Israel guess what Israel's Arab neighbours do Guest ifor? Much the same as Syria and Iran are doing at present, they sponsor terrorist attacks on Israel.

1956 comes along and the great pan-Arabist leader Gamal Abul Nasser decides to take on the Israelis and drive them into the sea - end result he gets his ass whipped big time.

GAN threatens it again in 1967 after having kicked out the UN's peacekeepers. Result, while the Arabs are blowing and blustering the numerically outnumbered Israelis pre-emtively attack and completely wipe-out the Air Forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria within the first 24 hours. Within six Days the UN is desperate to salvage something out of the situation and yet another "ceasefire" is agreed to - like all the others Guest ifor the Arabs have no intention of living up to the conditions they have agreed to in order to save face.

Sporadic attacks based from neighbouring Arab States continue until in 1973 the Arabs pre-emptively strike at Israel. Within days the Israeli's have recovered the situation in the greatest tank battle that has ever taken place (Even surpassed that of Kursk in WWII). Once again the Arab Forces of Syria and Egypt are completely routed and only the intervention of the UN prevents the Egyptian Second Army from being starved to death in Port Said. By the way Guest ifor are you keeping track of the number of times that Israel has been threatened and attacked - Remember the whole thing kicked-off with a bunch of lies told by Tosser Arafat's Uncle.

Now having been walloped severely on not one, not two but three occasions some of this pan-Arabist shit is beginning to wear a little thin for the so-called-front-line states so as part of the aftermath of the 1973 fiasco bilateral peace accords are reached with Israel which remove Egypt and Jordan from the equation.

Tosser's loyal followers in Jordan object vehmently to this and try to take over Jordan - this like every other damn thing that they have ever attempted fails and they are booted out to Lebanon (Syria and old man Hassad is far to cute and sensible to allow Tosser and Co to stay in Syria in any large numbers). Light the blue touch paper and retire, while the front-line States are getting weary of the expense of continually getting beaten, the likes of Iran and Iraq are only too willing to keep pouring fuel on the fire, mainly on the principle that they know they are not going to get clobbered.

Still with me Guest ifor, please feel free to contradict anything you don't agree with.

Saddam goes to the French and the Russians in order to acquire nuclear weapons and then finds out exactly what the reach and expertise of the Israeli Air Force is.

Arafat continues to play diplomat and terrorist, he doesn't prove to be too great at this and others start to rise to challenge his authority (Hamas and Hezbollah). In all this time attacks on Israel have not abated and absolutely bugger all has EVER been done by anyone to improve the lot of Tosser Arafat's creation - the "Palestinian" people.

And that Guest ifor is where we are today. By their gullibilty, their own damn stupidity in believing the tossers who fill their heads with empty promises the "Palestinian" people are where they are today. It is not the fault of the Israeli's, it is not the fault of the USA, it is not the fault of the West. They have been at this now for damn near sixty years, high time THEY start to look for a solution that does not involve the erradication of the Jewish people because that is not going to happen - live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 07 - 03:17 AM

"However for the indiginous pre Zionist Jewish community life has been difficult under a Jewish theocracy with many treated as second class citizens partly as a result of their dark skin but also because they were seen as fairly close to the Palestinian neighbours."

You got that right!

Ashkenazic Jews brought all of their hatred and fear with them to Israel where they hold the balance of power and continue the system of discrimination that was familiar to them in Europe. They had very good teachers. They discriminate against Arabs and
Sephardic and Mizrachi Jews and wallow in their self righteous proclamation of a homeland. Somebody should remind them that it may be a home for the Ashkenazic but it is also home for others.

I'm beginning to wonder if its Zionism I am opposed to or if its the attitude of the Ashkenazic Jews. Its as if their so-called entitlement excuses them from having any compassion for others. Perhaps its because they were treated so badly that they have no room left inside for empathy. A very self-centered and insular culture which creates second class citizens within a so-called promised land.

As far as I'm concerned, any birthright the Ashkenazic may have once had, they have lost by their own actions. Someone forgot to teach them that with privilege comes responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 07 - 09:44 AM

U.S., Arab allies send aid to Lebanon

By BASSEM MROUE, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 50 minutes ago



TRIPOLI, Lebanon - Military aid from the United States and Arab allies began arriving Friday after Washington said it was rushing supplies to the Lebanese army battling al-Qaida-inspired militants barricaded inside a Palestinian refugee camp in the country's north.

Sporadic gunfire exchanges early Friday punctured the lull in the fighting as the Lebanese army continued to build up around the Nahr el-Bared refugee camp near the port city of Tripoli.

The move appeared to be either a preparation to storm the camp — a maze of narrow streets and tightly packed residential buildings where hundreds of       Fatah Islam militants are holed up — or a tightening of the siege to force them to surrender. Thousands of Palestinian refugees are also trapped inside.

A deputy Fatah Islam leader threatened more violence if the army attacks. Abu Hureira told the pan-Arab Al Hayat daily by telephone that "sleeper cells" in other Palestinian camps and elsewhere in Lebanon were awaiting word for a "violent response."

Although U.S. officials said the military aid to Lebanon had been agreed to before the fighting broke out this week, the speedy shipment Friday marked the first tangible U.S. backing of the Lebanese authorities' fight with the militants.

By early afternoon Friday, a total of five military transport planes landed at the Beirut airport, including one from the U.S. Air Force, two from the Emirates' air force and two Royal Jordanian Air Force planes. Both Jordan and Emirates are close U.S. allies.

Secretary of State       Condoleezza Rice on Thursday renewed the Bush administration's support for the Lebanese government.

"I certainly hope that the Lebanese government will be able to deal with these extremists," Rice said. "It's just another example of extremists in the Middle East who are trying to destabilize democratic governments."

U.S. military assistance, limited during       Syria's control of Lebanon until 2005, increased after last year's summer war between Lebanese Hezbollah militants and       Israel.

Hoping that a boosted army could eventually disarm Hezbollah, the U.S. has pledged $40 million in military aid. Lebanon's 70,000-strong army is underarmed and overstretched, with army leaders complaining of a lack of heavy armor, anti-aircraft missiles and the absence of an air force.

At the camp, Lebanese troops entrenched their positions around the camp but did not appear to be attempting to advance. Reinforcements from other regions were also arriving, mostly from elite commando units.

A       Pentagon official said Thursday that the United States would send ammunition and other equipment to the Lebanese army in a military airlift of eight planes. Many residents of the capital saw Friday's international airlift but the Lebanese military refused to comment.

The fighting in Lebanon, which erupted Sunday when police raided suspected Fatah Islam hideouts in Tripoli while searching for men wanted in a bank robbery, has killed some 50 combatants and many civilians so far.

Thousands of Palestinians — mainly women and children — have fled the camp on the outskirts of Tripoli, but thousands remain inside.

Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said Thursday that Fatah Islam was "a terrorist organization ... attempting to ride on the suffering and the struggle of the Palestinian people."

Saniora said his government "will work to root out and strike at terrorism" but insisted it has no quarrel with the 400,000 Palestinian refugees in the country. Under a 1969 agreement, Lebanese military stays out of the camps that are run by the Palestinians.

Fatah Islam spokesman Abu Salim Taha repeated Thursday that the group would never surrender but "fight until ... the last drop of blood and the last bullet."

Storming the Nahr el-Bared camp could mean rough urban fighting for Lebanese troops and further death and destruction for the civilians inside. It could also spark unrest in Lebanon's 11 other Palestinian refugee camps. Palestinian factions have dissociated themselves from Fatah Islam but are angry over army bombardments that have partially destroyed Nahr el-Bared.

Three bombs have exploded in the Beirut area since Sunday, killing one woman and injuring about 20. Fatah Islam has denied responsibility for the bombings.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:00 AM

Ashkenazic Jews brought all of their hatred and fear with them to Israel where they hold the balance of power and continue the system of discrimination that was familiar to them in Europe. They had very good teachers. They discriminate against Arabs and
Sephardic and Mizrachi Jews and wallow in their self righteous proclamation of a homeland. Somebody should remind them that it may be a home for the Ashkenazic but it is also home for others.

I'm beginning to wonder if its Zionism I am opposed to or if its the attitude of the Ashkenazic Jews. Its as if their so-called entitlement excuses them from having any compassion for others. Perhaps its because they were treated so badly that they have no room left inside for empathy. A very self-centered and insular culture which creates second class citizens within a so-called promised land.

As far as I'm concerned, any birthright the Ashkenazic may have once had, they have lost by their own actions. Someone forgot to teach them that with privilege comes responsibility.

The nameless anti-Semite that spewed this hatred certainly knows sweet fuck all about the make-up of Israeli society.

If he/she knew anything, he/she would know that GENERALLY the most hardline Israelis are the Sephardics who were driven out out of Arab countries after 1948. They're hardline because they suffered at the hands of Arab oppressors and know Arabic society. As has been pointed out, there were more Jews driven out of Arab countries into Israel than there were Arabs who left Israel. The difference is that Israel made a home for the displaced Jews while the surrounding Arab countries have forced generations of "Palestinians" to live in filth, squalor and without human rights.

And as has been pointed out, there is a vibrant Arab minority in Israel while there is no Jewish population to speak of left in any surrounding Arab country.

And in what Middle Eastern country do Arabs and/or Moslems have the absolutely highest level of human rights? No it's not Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan, Libya, or even Kuwait. It's Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:16 PM

Well who would have thought that eh? ifor.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:24 PM

i am sure that those Palestinian farmers who are fighting desperately to save their orchards from the Israeli bulldozers are ever so grateful for their high level of human rights under Israeli law.

And of course those Palestinan refugee mothers sweltering in beseiged Gaza are thankful for the full weight of the Israeli law as tank shells and rockets slam into their apartments while their children wet the bed and scream in terror.

And let us remember the Palestinian students and workers kept for hours or even days at the checkpoints by trigger happy 18 year old conscripts who delight in the daily humiliations piled upon the civilian opponents..those workers and students have never been so favoured in Israeli law.

Then there are those Israeli and Palestinian marriages where the full majesty of Israeli law makes life as difficult as possible for the young lovers....all those human rights and yet no right of residence for the star crossed lovers......

I bet every evening the Palestinians, of all faiths and secular ,say a little prayer of thanks for the benefits of the human rights they enjoy under Israeli rule...or then again... perhaps they do not.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:27 PM

Yeah. Life's a bitch and then you die.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:29 PM

"with privilege comes responsibility."

How would you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:58 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting for you to address the questions.


If you want to make speeches, feel free- but do not expect us to take seriously the unsupported claims, without reference to the facts, that you insist should sway our opinions. WE could tell lots of stories of the suffering of Jew, but that does not add to the point of discussion:ie, whether what we are seeing NOW is the beginning of anothert war, caused by Moslems, in the middle east.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:36 PM

Damn
And I thought the last couple of wars were the result of an invasion of Iraq by the USA and the UK and the invasion and attack on Lebanon by Israel.Add in the beseiging of Gaza again by Israel...and there is a recipe for yet more violence,more wars and more sectarian hatred.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:48 PM

And all those innocent terrorist groups just minding their own business. You cover your hatred of Jews by pretending to be anti-war. Plainly, you are an aging Socialist who thinks the sun rises and sets on Marx and his failed philosophy of how things should be. You ain't even worth saying fuck off to.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 May 07 - 05:56 PM

Well Peace I can see you have a third class degree in foul mouth insults although I must say that your manner on Mudcat totally reflects your zionist beliefs.
And that name you use...it contravenes the Trade Descriptions Act!
Heddwch
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 07 - 09:32 PM

OK then Guestifor, let's talk about Gaza.

Point 1
It was originally stolen from the deliniated Jewish Homeland as defined by the UN and occupied as a prize of war by Egypt in 1948. But that is OK with you because it is land taken in combat FROM Israel. But do you get the gist Guest ifor it was never Egypt's it never belonged to the Arabs who happen to live in the general area collectively known as "Palestine".

Point 2
Gaza recaptured by Israel in the war of 1967 and traded off in a "land for peace" deal between Egypt and Israel signed at Camp David.

Point 3
Egypt hands this over to Tosser Arafat's "Palestinians" as a token so that the formation of an "Independent Palestinian State" can be built - at roughly the same time Jordan relinquishes it's claim to land it had also stolen in 1948 (What is known as the West Bank, which also used to belong to the Jews prior to 1948)

Point 4
Israel withdraws completely from Gaza and gives it to the "Palestinian Authority" on the understanding that the indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israel launched from Gaza cease.

Question for you Guest ifor - Did the indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israel launched from Gaza cease?

Answer - No they damn well didn't - Now, Guest ifor, ask Little Hawk what Israel's reaction to such attacks should be. According to Little Hawk so far with regard to Gaza the israeli's have not put a foot wrong.

I see that you seem to agree with the points made earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 26 May 07 - 01:14 AM

1 Gaza ...a giant prison controlled by the Israeli for decades but occupied by over a million Palestinian refugees who had originally fled from their homes in what is now Israel ...fled in fear of massacre.
2 Gaza..Originally an area of sand and dune bur now one of the most heavily overcrowded urban areas in the world.
3 Gaza...for decades its Palestinian were controlled at the point of a gun by the Israelis... internal and external checkpoints criss crossed the city making movement in,out and through the city excrutiatingly difficult for the population and a daily humiliation.
4 Gaza where a million plus Palestinians were policed,bossed and controlled while a few thousand heavily armed Zionist paramilitaries took the best land for farming and settlements and appropriated the water supplies.
5 Gaza ...where the Israeli livestock was allocated more water than the Palestinian population.
6 Gaza...where the sea front was controlled by the Israelis and its Palestinian population denied access to most of its beaches in a policy reminiscent of apartheid South Africa.
7Gaza...Where the Palestinian fishing boats were bossed about by the Israelis who controlled the sea around its coast.
8 Gaza ...where travellers are kept for days at the crossing points in a deliberate act of punishment.
9 Gaza...besieged for over a 18 months where apartment blocks and housing are smashed by Israeli tanks shells and high explosives and rockets fired from gunships.
10 Gaza where the children in their thousands are half starved and terrorised by the bombing and the siege.
7 were slaughtered this week by rockets fired by the Israeli military.
Gaza ..where power stations are destroyed,pumping stations blown up,schools attacked and neighbourhoods blown to smithereens.
8..where the Israeli govt has robbed its people of almost a billion taxes in withheld tax revenue because the Palestinians elected Hamas which will not do as it is told.
9 Gaza ..where the kids were blown up on the beach by an Israeli warship [not me guv came the slow response from the Israeli govy but we all know better].
Gaza....still terrorised and still resisting.
Heddwch
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:53 AM

Number of rather obvious inconsistances and ommissions aren't there Guest ifor.

1. So the Palestinians "fled in fear of massacre" to Gaza in 1948 did they Guest ifor - at least would appear to be your contention. What was it then about the events of 1956, 1967 and 1973 that prompted them to stay put? Why was there no "fear of massacre" on those occasions?

2. Does an area that is composed of nothing but "sand and dune" have any good farming/pasture land and water? Or does that have to be installed and created?

3. You mention nothing about rocket attacks, which are totally indiscriminate in their targeting, made on Israel from inside Gaza, round about 140 in the last week according to the BBC.

4. Instances please of power stations destroyed,pumping stations blown up,schools attacked and neighbourhoods blown to smithereens. All good ultra left Socialist Worker's Party stuff. Mind you one school that does warrant blowing up might be that one where members of Hamas make the propellant for their rockets.

5. You failed to mention the tunnel networks used to smuggle in arms Guest ifor.

6. You failed to mention the lack of leadership or responsibility shown by the elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people. After all if the Israeli's could make this area of sand and dune bloom, why not the Arabs? Why could they not do anything of worth with the billions in aid that has been thrown in their direct? I am sorry, of course they couldn't, Arafat ripped great chunks of it off for himself and spent millions on his cronies and arms.

I could go on and on Guest ifor but I won't - it just would not be worth it. But I will give you the following comparison:

During the 1948 War, Arabs living in "Jewish" areas were advised to leave in order to give the forces of the Arab League a free hand, on the understanding that once the "Jews" had been despatched they could return. That amounted to about 480,000 people, who ever since have been treated like political pawns by their leaders and their host nations. At the same time by way of collective reprisal for not having suceeded in killing off the Jews of Palestine, neighbouring Arab countries confiscated the goods and belongings of 800,000 of their Jewish citizens and explelled them. These people were taken in by Israel and in the ensuing years they thrived, prospered and became part of the Israeli nation. So on one side you have an example of non-existent leadership combined with political cynicism and opportunism deliberately manipulated to maintain the Arabs of Palestine in poverty and misery. While on the other side you see an example of pragmatic, responsible behaviour and plain hard work.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 26 May 07 - 07:18 AM

Amnesty International is an excellent source for unbiased information on events in Gaza,the West Bank and Israel....they are full of information about the many Palestinian children killed in their beds , on their way to school ,or shot in the head in their classrooms. Rockets fired from jet fighters or apache helicopters are indiscriminate when they explode in busy streets or crowded apartment blocks.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 07 - 08:02 AM

Amnesty International - unbiased - ROFLMAO - maybe "Once-upon-a-time"

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 26 May 07 - 01:18 PM

If you think that Amnesty is biased try Human Rights Watch which has a long article on the destruction of thousands of Palestinian homes in Gaza,especially at the southern border with Egypt which is controlled by the Israeli military...actually there is a mass of info about the oppression of the Palestinians for anyone interested in getting behind the news headlines.I am not referring to the Zionist apologists on mudcat who have their own narrow agenda to pursue.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: guitar
Date: 26 May 07 - 01:38 PM

another war on mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 27 May 07 - 01:31 AM

I think it was the journalist Paul Foot whose book was called Words Are Weapons Too.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 27 May 07 - 02:01 AM

There is a video posting on liveleak this morning which is well worth looking at and shows the continous grab for land that is going on in the illegally occupied West Bank.
It shows a huge bulldozer guarded by machine gun toting Squads of Israeli soldiers tearing up trees on land belonging to Palestinian farmers...watching and bearing witness and being shoved back are young Israeli peace activists and local people.
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 07 - 02:12 AM

'Israel responds to Hamas rocket attacks

GAZA, May 25: Several buildings were damaged and four people slightly injured Friday in Israeli airstrikes against Hamas positions in Gaza.

The strikes followed the firing overnight of eight Qassam rockets, including one that started a fire in a wheat field near Sderot, The Jerusalem Post reported.

Palestinian authorities said a missile fired late Thursday exploded near the house of Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh in the Shati refugee camp next to Gaza City. The missile reportedly hit a shack where guards sleep but no one was in the structure at the time.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said he has no intention of halting Israel's offensive against Palestinian militants in the Gaza strip despite calls for a cease-fire by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, Ynetnews reported.

"Israel will continue to operate against Hamas' terror," Olmert told a Thursday night Cabinet meeting. "They will not control the situation, we will control the situation."'

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 27 May 07 - 03:58 PM

Olmert says "They will not control the situation.We will control the situation"....a bit like the war last year in Lebanon I suppose.
This from the most unpopular man in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 07 - 05:34 PM

100 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,AL
Date: 28 May 07 - 02:46 AM

When will Moedechai Vanunu be allowed to leave Israel?
He was the nuclear whistleblower who served some 18 years in an Israeli jail for the crime of revealing to the world that Israel,in the tinder box that is the Middle East, was a nuclear arms country.
After serving his time,much of it in solitary confinement,he has renounced his Jewish faith and Israeli nationality and wants to leave the country.
However he is still be harrassed by the authorities and is not allowed to leave that country.When will it all end for him?
al