BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 07 - 04:50 PM

Speaking of the Irish, there were once the same hysterical fears being expressed about massive Irish immigration to the USA. That was back in the mid-to-late 1800s.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 May 07 - 05:51 PM

But don't worry--not only are dead-enders like our own dear Doug R, totally opposed to the deal, but quite a few illegal immigrants have concerns too. So would I, if I were an illegal immigrant. The $5,000 fine is a problem, but surmountable. But all heads of household would have to return to their "country of origin" for the stupidly artificial "touch-back" provision. Then they have to trust that the US will let them in again--and very quickly, since otherwise they may well lose jobs and their families will suffer.

The government will carry out a brand- new bureaucratic procedure with exemplary efficiency.

Right. About that bridge I have to sell Teribus.....

And that assumes that illegal immigrants will trust the government at all. And what reason have they been given so far to trust the government?

If I were an illegal immigrant, no way would I sign on to a procedure that requires me to leave the US. I wouldn't come out of the shadows for this.

So, all you giant intellects who wave the bloody flag of "amnesty", don't worry. The bill as it stands is going nowhere---especially since Pelosi is insisting on a guarantee by the White House of 70 House Republicans before she'll bring the bill up. For a glimpse of the likely reception in the House, look for instance, at the calm measured response by that paragon of clear thinking, Doug R, to support of the bill by Senator Kyl.

We'll just have to wait a few more elections, til the growing electoral influence of the fastest growing ethnic group--legally-- has its results.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:13 PM

McGrath, does the open door policy just apply to Romanians, or are all immigrants welcome regardless of nationality, criminality, valid passport or lack thereof? Is there any such thing as an illegal immigrant in Ireland? Do you have an extra room?

"Speaking of the Irish, there were once the same hysterical fears being expressed about massive Irish immigration to the USA. That was back in the mid-to-late 1800s." That's true. But the government and the taxpayers of the United States weren't asked to feed, house, and provide health coverage for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:51 PM

Okay, let me restate my question once again...

Where were you folks who ***now*** want to enforce the law 10 years ago when the economy was flourishing with cheap Hispanic (not necessarially Mexican) labor???

I mean, isn't this the corporate model???... Use people and then try to dodge any benefits that these folks might have coming??? I see little difference between the Hispanics who are now under attack by "Boss Hog's" goon than the labor union folks who were beat up in the 30's by "Boss Hog's" goons, or the UAW folks who are about to get a butt whup put on them by the new owners of Chrysler...

Like I said... This ain't about enforcing laws or not enforcin' 'um... It's about money...

And, BTW, emergency rooms have become the poor man's only access to health care regardless of race, cred or where you are from...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:59 PM

"...but I've been reading about the "Mexican Billionaires," and while there don't seem to be a lot of them, they have all the resources tied up so the working people don't have a chance."

             "I hope this was posted tongue-in-cheek?"


                No it's not tongue-in-cheek. It's factual. Forbes has a list of Mexican Billionaires. I've never been able to make that "blue clicky" gizmo work, but google them. They're out there, and they control so much of Mexico's economy that virtually no capital is made available for other activities.

                Call them Mezo-American robber-barons.

                They need a Teddy Rossevelt; it's a large part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 10:27 PM

Mexican Billionaires.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 May 07 - 10:42 PM

Taxes in the US are going to go up, probably with the next president, because we have this tiny little debt to pay off....

Get used to the idea -- we can't continue with this "borrow and spend" economy.

Personally, I like the "tax and spend" concept, because at least you're paying for for it up front instead of foisting it off on those who come after.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Dickey
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:11 AM

Bobert:

Obviously you are a shill woking for Boss Hogg. Just tell the cheap bastard you want a raise.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:39 AM

And, BTW, emergency rooms have become the poor man's only access to health care regardless of race, cred or where you are from...

Thanks for pointing that out, Bobert. It has been that way for far too long, imo.

Wow, TEN Mexican billionaires to America's FOUR HUNDRED, oh my!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:56 AM

'but I've been reading about the "Mexican Billionaires," and while there don't seem to be a lot of them, they have all the resources tied up so the working people don't have a chance.'

Must have been a short read . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:37 AM

If they are made legal, they will have to pay a fine of $1000.00 right off the bat. Then, after a series of trials and a number of years, they can return to Mexico and apply for citizenship after paying another $4000.00 fine, passing an English proficiency test, and accumulating points based on their education, skills or profession.

SUCH A DEAL!

Leave it to Bush to take a very good, Liberal rationale (amnesty) and turning it into a cash grab.

How many illegals do you think can afford to pay the fine just so they can be denied citizenship on the basis of poverty?

What a stupid system! The hard-working father trying to feed his family will never be able to scrape together the money while the drug dealer will have no problem, as long as he does not have a previous record.

The current attempt to solve the problem of illegal immigration will solve nothing. It will only provide another level of bureacracy.

The only way to solve this problem is to fine employers for hiring illegals or to give the illegals amnesty so that they will have to be paid a a minimum wage.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:36 AM

"'but I've been reading about the "Mexican Billionaires," and while there don't seem to be a lot of them, they have all the resources tied up so the working people don't have a chance.'

Must have been a short read . . . . "


                I'm going to give up on this. I don't seem to be able to make the point. You have posted individuals with billions, but the problem, as I understand it, is families with billions. In any event, most of the land and capital is in the hands of a very few people. It's getting to be that way in the US, and it got to be that way just before the Great Depression struck. One could make the point that Mexico has been in a Great Depression since its inception.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 07 - 10:39 AM

Ringinslinger-

Nobody denies that income in Mexico is not equitably distributed. Tell me, how would you describe the distribution of income in the US?

And why should poor Mexicans not have the opportunity to work for better wages in the US if they cannot get good wages in Mexico?

Or would you like to suggest that the US dictate how Mexico should improve its economic situation? I'm sure many Bushites would agree with you. They were never big on national sovereignty.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:25 PM

It seems to me that people have been denying the reality of the distribution of wealth in Mexico since I first brought it up.
But that aside, one of the primary reasons there are not better paying jobs in Mexico is because most of the capital is so tightly held, nothing is available for economic development there.

          I agree the comments that employers of illegal aliens ought to be charged, convicted, and jailed.

          Further, I would agree that all people who work should be paid a decent wage. In addition to that, payroll taxes, insurance for industrial accident, unemployment and health should be paid as well. If that were happening, employers would find hiring immigrants over American workers a lot less tempting.
          Add to that, taking away the threat to turn immigrants into the authorities if the don't do things just exactly the way the employer wants--work overtime for nothing and ect.--and the appeal to hire them becomes virtually nonexistent.


         Finally, supply side economists would like to suggest how Mexico could improve its economic situation, but I suspect the Bushites like it just the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:42 PM

"In any event, most of the land and capital is in the hands of a very few people."

That remark doesn't just apply to Mexico. It applies also to the USA, Canada, England--hell, the whole rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:49 PM

You brought up the Romanians, Lonesome, so I just put the record straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 May 07 - 02:41 PM

Reginslinger, I don't think anyone is denying the reality of the distribution of wealth in Mexico. Rather, everyone is basically ignoring that comment as irrelevant to the rest of the discussion. As Peace said, inequities in wealth distribution is a world-wide reality and, even though it is a well known (and well publicized) factoid in the US, it has always been more true in third world and fringe economies than elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 May 07 - 02:54 PM

McGrath, I'm actually genuinely curious if Ireland has a special relationship with Romanian immigrants, and why. Does it have to do with a Cold War sanctuary concept?

RE: The health care question. Manufacturing companies in the US have difficulty competing with other nations, and one of the principle reasons is the cost of worker's healthcare. The following from hospitalimpact.org...

"Let's take a look at this car - the good old American Ford Taurus.
What is the single most expensive raw material in this car? It's not metal or computer chips - it's healthcare. In fact, ~$1,800 of healthcare costs goes into each of these cars.
Compare that to a Japanese car, let's say the Toyota Matrix.
For the typical Japanese car, healthcare costs are ~$200."

This model also applies to American Manufacture versus Mexican Manufacture. One of the principle reasons for movement of American manufacturers south of the border is not only cheap labor pay rates, but the fact that manufacturers pay little or nothing for healthcare for workers. As we lose our manufacturing base, and face the accompanying unemployment and loss of tax revenue, isn't it ironic that Mexican workers come to this country to take advantage of availability of free health care, worsening our out-of-control health system costs, putting added pressure on an already unsteady structure, and increasing the manufacturingcost disparity with our competitors?
The healthcare crisis in the US is many-pronged and the repercussions are myriad, and unfortunately, there are many who have a vested interest in keeping it at status quo. Look at the way Republicans shot down the Clinton attempt at restructuring the Healthcare System in the 90s. It's time for a hard look at healthcare in conjunction with a stern approach to immigration reform. These are not Republic/Democrat issues, nor are they Liberal?Conservative issues...they are issues of national survival.

LEJ (stepping down from soapbox)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:36 PM

So for those of us who might be curious as to why George W. Bush seems to be so concerned about the Mexican immigrants.

There was a guy on "Book TV" this morning who'd written a book on Jeb Bush. He stressed the point that, if Jeb Bush were to run as VP in 2008, and then--assuming the Republicans lose--as President in 2012, his Mexican born wife, Columba Bush, would deliver the Latino vote for him.

That being the case, it's in the Bush's best interest to turn as many illegal immigrants into citizens as quickly as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:23 PM

Romania is one of the 27 countries in the European Union. We've all got the right to go and live in each each other's countries any time we want to. Here is a list.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 May 07 - 06:43 PM

What I greatly fear will happen is that the American car makers will fold and, like so many other companies, leave the taxpayers to pay off the pensions the workers were promised.

Spend the pension fund, close up shop, screw those who worked for you for forty years.

Check out the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation -- like Fanny Mae, a branch of the US gummint.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 May 07 - 06:53 PM

Thanks McG. I'm always learning something on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 07 - 08:56 PM

McGrath-

I've read, however, that though the UK was very open to Polish workers coming into the UK to work--- (in contrast to the attitude of France and Germany)--, it does not plan to be so welcoming for the new members of the EU. Is this so?

(at the risk of egregious thread creep)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Dickey
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:06 AM

Mr. Terrazas, CEO of TerraHealth, Inc., the No. 1 ranked company on the 2006 Hispanic Business 100 Fastest-Growing Companies directory, uses the elk hunting in Montana caveat to demonstrate how important it is to have the knowledge and foresight needed to navigate challenging business terrain.

Much of TerraHealth's 8,338 percent five-year growth rate is due to the specialized knowledge Mr. Terrazas gained while working as a Medical Service Corps officer while on active duty with the U.S. Air Force. His knowledge of the Department of Defense procurement systems and military healthcare missions drove TerraHealth gross sales figures from $180,000 in 2001 to $15.19 million in 2005.

Founded in 2001, TerraHealth provides medical staffing, consulting, and IT support for hospitals and other healthcare providers. A separate division, organized in the company's third year of operations and named Total Warfighting Support, literally bolsters Department of Defense war-fighting missions through IT, engineering, staff augmentation, consulting, and training.

http://dinero.aol.com/especiales/hispanic-heritage-month/hispanicheritagemonth_canvas/_a/terrahealth-no1-on-fastest-growing/20060906182809990001

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Dickey
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:44 AM

Bobert March 23 2005: "Life is good and if any Catters ever gonna be in the Shanandoah Valley fir anything, ya' let me know an' we'll hook up"

Bobert May 19 2007: "My standard of living has been going down steadily for the last 6 years"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Dickey
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:28 AM

I am against this immigration bill. We don't need a new set of laws to try to enforce. What we need is enforcement of the ones we have and improvemnets in the immigration process.

Before people here start in calling me a racist, my stance on Immigration is that is a good thing if done legally. America needs the workers and it needs them to follow the laws.

This whole country was built on immigration. Remember the Great American Melting Pot? Instead of a wall on the border, there should be another statue of liberty welcoming Hispanic immigrants.

That said, Illegal Immigrants should not be forgiven for being here illegally. They should be made to go through the legal channelsm that exist. But those channels should be widened and speeded up and quotas raised while businesses that hire illegal aliens should prosecuted for violating the law.

Whatever money that would be spent on more border agents and a multi-billion dollar wall should be spent on speeding up the immigration and naturalization process and screening for criminals.

Last but not least, the minimum wage should be raised to at least $10 per hour for Americans and legal Immigrants. This alone would be an incentive for ilegal immigrats to become legal but the immigration system is a bottleneck that should be streamlined.

Here is an interesting article on the problem

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:05 PM

"...if Jeb Bush were to run as VP in 2008, and then--assuming the Republicans lose--as President in 2012, his Mexican born wife, Columba Bush, would deliver the Latino vote for him."


          Many of the supporters of this bill are behind a "draft Jeb Bush for president" movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:10 PM

What's to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:23 PM

If you like George W., you'll love Jeb.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:39 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:05 PM

Would he have a chance running against Obama? HC?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:14 PM

Yeah, as long as he carries the Latino vote, and providing his brother makes them all citizens first.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:04 PM

bush has already legalized himself. now then how 'bout Lie-berman?

F.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:10 PM

Does anyone know the status of House Resolution 333?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Willie-O
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:26 PM

"Many of the supporters of this bill are behind a "draft Jeb Bush for president" movement. "

Except the Democrats, them, not so much for Jeb.

Yeah, whatever. I'm gonna give Americans the benefit of the doubt here. Which I am loath to do since 2004. But things being what they are, unless there's a whole bunch of good news out of Iraq (right!), and the economy that W has wrecked by pretending his world-domination-by-force hobby was more important, I don't think we can anticipate yet another President, or even nominee, named Bush in the next couple of decades. Jeb would need a lot more than a Mexican-born wife to pull that off.

But look out for either of the twins (I'm guessing Barbara, she seems to be able to avoid the trouble light better) around 2030. Even Michael Moore likes them!

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:33 PM

Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary on 4/24/2007, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:36 PM

How long before they can act on it (if they do) Art? (Thank you, BTW.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:06 PM

They can act any time, but don't hold your breath. Since it takes a 2/3 vote of the Senate to convict, a vote of the House to impeach would basically be a symbolic waste of everybody's time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:38 PM

yo Dickey,

Why can't one look at one's standard of living as going down while still no thinking that life is good???... Life and standard of living are not the same...

But you probably wouldn't understand that... Ask you parents of garndparents who came thru the Depression... There is something about having to live a little closer to the land to eat that brings a higher "quality of life" while one's "standard of living" might be going the other way...

Like I said, you prolly don't understnd that...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:52 PM

"2/3 vote of the Senate to convict"

OH. Then this ain't about to happen. I guess the thread title should then include Republicans, too.

Thanks for your help understanding this thing. In Canada, the government 'falls' when there is a dismal vote on an important bill proposed by the ruling party. If the bill is defeated, it is assumed that there is no-confidence in the ruling party and they have to call a general election. Is it 2/3 in the House or 3/4?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:54 PM

"Even Michael Moore likes them!"

      The Bush twins? That's kind of hard to believe.

      One of them wrote a book, or at least, had somebody write a book for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:58 PM

"Does anyone know the status of House Resolution 333?"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:00 PM

Whoops, sorry.


    "Does anyone know the status of House Resolution 333?"
   "Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary on 4/24/2007, Peace."

            What are we talking about here?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:37 PM

There is no "Democrat" and "Republican" in the Senate or in the Executive Branch. Both parties vote for big government. It's a bureaucracy, and bureaucracies survive by expanding. Why are you folks still working at cross-purposes on this simplest of all issues? Ted Kennedy and GWBush are both FOR legalizing 30 million criminals. That doesn't "benefit" either of the so-called parties in America. But what it does do is kill Social Security, for starters, and then put a permanent drain on the U.S. Treasury. And American taxpayers will be told that the amnesty was a "mistake" later on, and taxes will have to go up, etc., etc., etc... You've heard it all before. Reagan's 1986 amnesty was going to be a "one-time amnesty," and over the past 20 years we've heard what a mistake it was, and NOW THEY'RE GOING TO DO IT ON A SCALE 20 TIMES LARGER.

The US dollar is now falling in value at about 2 cents per week. A year from now your dollar will buy half a dollar's worth of goods and services. And this is happening because you've put your trust in one of the "parties." THEY'RE WORKING TOGETHER to destroy America. America will be reduced to a Mexico-level country in the very near future, and when your "standard of living" means working all day to earn a tamale and a bowl of beans, don't even THINK about going up to the hacienda on the hill to steal a tomato. Blackwater mercs will blow your ass away.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:07 PM

"THEY'RE WORKING TOGETHER to destroy America. "

Nope.

They're not "working at it"

They're all so incompetent (because they can't see beyond the end of their selfish rich noses) that they will just stuff it up .... as usual...

Never ascribe to malice what is more easily explained by mere stupidity...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:58 PM

A little realism might possibly be called for here.

Ringenslinger--

Do you honestly believe that the wife of a candidate can "deliver" an entire ethnic group?

I have this bridge I was saving for Teribus but...

Offhand, I'd say that the outcome of this fight on overhaul of immigration laws might just possibly have more of an impact.

And unless Jeb comes out NOW against "touch-back" and the $5,000 fine--and in favor of a bill without either---, he can kiss the Hispanic vote goodbye---since both of these seem to be just fine with GWB. They're not just fine--and anybody named Bush will have to learn this.

It's also not clear that Hispanics and their supporters will sign on to a bill where the emphasis changes from the current family preference to skills desired.

Particularly since all Hispanics have to do is wait a bit--demographics are their friend--and nobody else's. There's no question that both the Democrats and Republicans will need Hispanic votes progressively more--and that won't change any time soon.

Handing the presidency to Jeb Bush is just a bit premature. It may take a while--like forever--unless he makes the changes I've outlined.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:04 PM

Riginslinger, HR 333 is the resolution to impeach Dick Cheney. Peace, I'm pretty sure that the vote to impeach requires only a simple majority. In the US system, the House impeaches (which means about the same as indicting) and the Senate trys and finds the party guilty or innocent. No sitting President or VP has ever been convicted after being impeached.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:18 PM

Thank you again, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 07 - 12:23 AM

Yes, thanks on HR 333.

"Do you honestly believe that the wife of a candidate can "deliver" an entire ethnic group?"

               And no, I suspect Latinos think for themselves like everybody else, but that's what the journalist from Florida who wrote the book on Jeb Bush said that's what he thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 May 07 - 12:50 AM

Currently, it's a crime to knowingly hire an illegal immigrant, and the fines range as high as $10,000 per offense. But those laws are rarely enforced, and employers are rarely prosecuted.

No new laws, legislation or fence is needed. Its already a crime to hire an illegal immigrant.

Enforce the law and the problem will be solved.