BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:52 PM

Please note, dianavan, that most people coming into America are OTMs (Other Than Mexicans, to use Border Patrol parlance). And please note that I feel the word "target" should be looked up in the "appropriate dictionary." People from all over the world are coming into America illegally. Lots come in through Canada. They just pass right through that country like a dose of bran and very few of them speak Spanish. But the people just to the south of the US present a special problem. They want to kill us. They say so. And national suicide is a bad idea. You are a typical liberal on the immigration issue. Your positions are fed to you as the needs of the corporate elite change. You will be for whatever they tell you to be for, even up to and including national suicide. But hey, you're an American, aren't you? If so, I defend your right to advocate national suicide. I'm personally against it, though, and I should be accorded the same right to my beliefs as you are. You're about to get protection for your beloved criminals with the most heinous immigration law to ever be shat upon America, and when some tubercular axe murderer is screaming at you in Spanish that he's taking over your house, don't forget that you invited him in.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 11:17 PM

"They want to kill us. They say so." Data source, please. I'd guess that the percentage of Hispanic migrants who want to kill citizens of the US is much smaller than the percentage of active posters on Mudcat who want to murder migrants. And, BTW, Dianavan is Canadian.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 11:34 PM

Canadian. Should've known.

artbrooks...didn't we discuss your support of groups based on skin color? Was that you, defending La Raza ("The Race") and Mecha and all those pigs? I think we left that where I was pointing out that if you support La Raza then you're by extension supporting the Aryan nation. And the KKK, I suppose. Like I say, you liberals don't think things through. "The Race" is bad. They're bad people. Why do you support racist groups?

Anyway, you America-haters will have a happy day tomorrow when the Amnesty bill is passed. Here's the first commentary on it I've seen. Read it and weep:

http://sessions.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=275456

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 07:45 AM

Anti-Im - It seems like now matter which side of the immigration debate you're on, the Senate Bill is a disaster. It doesn't seem to do anything for anybody, and it will make immigration enforcement next to impossible.

             It seems to me that the questions people might want to ask are 1. Who proposed it? 2. What was their purpose in proposing it? and 3. Who benefits if it passes?

             The last question might be the hardest to figure out, but if we had the answer it might provide a target to vent your rage at.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM

My rage is vented accurately. I've thought the immigration thing through. I know why it's being done, and I know who's pushing the legislation, etc. I also know that liberals are chowderheads and will parrot any nonsense they think is politically correct. I'm disappointed in "conservatives" who are turning out to be chowderheads too...supporting the Bush regime while they do this. Anyway, artbrooks can pop the champagne cork and embrace his fucking cutthroats now. All I can do is try to position my family safely and focus on the next America-killing legislation the Democrat/Republican monster will hit us with.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM

Anti-human, I ignored your previous comments as being too stupid to be worthy of a response. No changes, I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 12:55 PM

"I've thought the immigration thing through. I know why it's being done, and I know who's pushing the legislation,..."

                Okay, clue me in. It doesn't look to me like this bill in the Senate benefits anybody. Of course, it looks like it's going to fail now anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:42 AM

You support La Raza, artbrooks. La Raza translates as "the Race." The group bases their ideology on their skin color. A racist group. And you are fine with that. Hence, you're a racist. I don't really care, because you have that freedom as an American. The problem I DO have with you is that you want to turn my country over to foreigners.

The bill was voted down in the Senate today, by the way. A true surprise. It seems our elected officials still have enough fear of the voters to follow the will of the people when it comes to the nut cutting. The Kennedy/Bush team will come back swinging, though, such is their hatred of America.

As far as who's behind the filling up of America with illegals, just read the news. The May Day pride bullshit of May 1, 2006 was coordinated by Rob Allen & company. They managed Bush's 2 presidential elections and Vicente Fox's (former president of Mexico), his last campaign. They were hired to stage manage the "spontaneous" protest of the criminal illegals in America in 2006. No attempt was made to hide who was behind the spectacle--Rob Allen instructed various hispanic leaders to throw a switch on May 1, and upwards of 20 million people were suddenly waving Mexican flags on the streets of America and shouting into cameras that they were going to kill the gringos. The event backfired on them too, and that's why it wasn't repeated in 2007.

Anyway, Rob Allen & company are doing the staging, but the usual players are behind the larger agenda. Vicente Fox was a Coca Cola CEO. Chase Manhattan bank owns Mexico, they installed Fox, and run the country. International conglomerate banking consortiums own Mexico, the US and Canada, and they're forging us into a single governmental unit. Or trying to. Beyond that, the usual couple hundred owners of the world are forcing the unions of the continents, and then it'll be multi-continental unions, then a world govt. That wouldn't be so objectionable if the people driving the bus weren't inbred satanists. The Windsor/Saxe-Coburgs, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, the Bushes, etc. Just follow the money and it leads back to the same couple hundred people over and over again. And they use religious and racial hatred to create turmoil. After the fighting is over and the races and religions have devasted one another, the elite move in and buy up things for pennies on the dollar, consolidate, then start over again.

America is their big obstacle, though. The US constitution, with its gurantees of free speech, and the right to own guns to keep govt in check, well that just doesn't fit in well with tyrannical world government.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 02:08 AM

" Lots come in through Canada. They just pass right through that country like a dose of bran and very few of them speak Spanish."

That is not true. Canada does not have a problem with illegals. Its the U.S. that needs to revise their immigration procedures.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 03:11 AM

Now THAT'S a high-powered rebuttal.

Canada has an ENORMOUS problem with illegals. The problem is you let anyone in, and they just pass through on their way to the U.S. Canadians are so stupid they don't even realize they're owned by the Queen of England. Crowns on everything, "dominion" stamped on everything, and you people don't realize you're the physical property of the English royal family. You're not even a country, you're a dominion. You are also muzzled by an occupational communo/fascist government that doesn't allow you to criticize anyone but Americans. You people never fought a war of independence, and now the royal family has arranged things so you go to prison if you criticize "protected groups." The one steam valve you're allowed is America, so you twits pass judgement on us constantly. But since you're the property of a bona fide nazi monarch, do you think anyone takes your judgements seriously? You are a pseudo-country, and you are the craven chattel of Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Canadians know this too, and deep down you people hate yourselves for never having thrown off the English yoke. Until you do, your opinions about REAL nations are crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:55 AM

Dianavan, since I support La Raza, which is news to me, and you are a craven chattel of the British Royal family, which I'm sure is news to you, why don't we just give it all up and go have a good cuppa tea and a laugh. My place or yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 01:40 AM

Well, Art - Since I live in Canada, I'm afraid if I go to the States, I might get tortured or shot. You should come up here but be careful when you try to return; the U.S. might think you are an illegal trying to kill them all for the crime of being White. Whatever you do, do not speak a word of Spanish at the border.

Eat your heart out, Anti-Im -

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dnd.ca/site/Governor_General/images/M_Jean_512.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dnd.ca/site/Governor_General/index_e.asp&h=258&w=200&sz=13&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=rWsJIm1ua5ihvM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMichaelle%2BJEAN%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:28 AM

"Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals"
Politicians are already legal. That's the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:09 AM

Sorry, you can't blame this one on politicians. They respond to their constituents--and rarely lead. And if they try to lead their constituents away from bigotry and fear, they often become a profile in courage out of a job. The problem is that Anti-Im's sentiments reflect more than just one person. In the US--and not just in the US--unthinking fear has always--and still is--a big part of the political landscape.   Look at the brilliant successes of Bush's Iraq propaganda campaign (summer 2002 to March 2003) -- and his 2004 campaign.

And bigots (and, it seems, sheep) can--and do--vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:27 AM

"Look at the brilliant successes of Bush's Iraq propaganda campaign (summer 2002 to March 2003) -- and his 2004 campaign."

             Ron--Wasn't that leadership? And when the truth finally came out, why would anyone be surprised that he wasn't allowed to lead on anything else?

             In all reality, though, the immigration bill that was proposed in the Senate didn't seem workable to me before it got out of the gate. And given the shameless way the 1986 laws were ignored, I don't see anyway they'll ever be able to do anything about immigration until they control the people coming into the country first. Once they can demonstrate they have control of the situation, I think most people would happily go along with a guest worker program.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 09:23 AM

Ring--

What I should have said is that politicians rarely lead away from bigotry and fear.

Bush actually had decent instincts--for a change--on the immigration issue. But didn't have the guts to actually propose a bill that made sense. Even though he will never run again--for which we can be eternally grateful. And even though he supposedly is concerned about his precious "legacy"--and since he's blown Iraq so badly and as a result may not have the strength to salvage Afghanistan, foreign policy is a total loss--while immigration reform is supposed to be something he actually accomplished. Fat chance.


He should have pointed out that a fence is totally worthless--and come out against "touch-back"--which as I said earlier is just a tease--any sensible person is not about to leave his home and family--on the off-chance that the brand new government program to let him back in the country will work flawlessly--when there are strong forces in the US trying to keep him out. Anybody who says they like immigrants but is in favor of "touch-back" is just not honest enough to admit he or she wants the illegal immigrants gone.

And, as I said earlier, should be careful what they wish for.

The $5,000 fine should have been cut down to something workable--maybe $500.

The people who predict the demographic "brown peril", amazingly like the "yellow peril", and the "Irish peril" etc. should start thinking. As I also pointed out, by and large, families go down in size with education. It's been that way with every group of immigrants so far--and there's no reason to think it will be different this time.

Also, Spanish is not about to displace English in the US. I've recently read that 94% of 3rd generation Mexicans in the US prefer to speak English--and many can't even speak Spanish.

This is a completely solvable issue--or it was before giant intellects like Dobbs and Tancredo started whipping the fearful into a frenzy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM

For starters, legalizing 30 million illegals will kill Social Security. And the media focuses people's attention on poor little Maria or Vlad or Mickey and you forget what the featured individual really is--a criminal. Why do you think they call them "illegal" immigrants?

You liberals have really had your thinking on this screwed up. You aren't very bright. A good example of this is dianavan's article. Something about the Governor General of Canada:

"The Governor General is the Queen's personal representative in Canada and is appointed by the Sovereign upon the advice of the Prime Minister. As Canada's 27th Governor General, the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean carries out Her Majesty's duties in Canada on a daily basis."

What does that have to do with anything? So Canada is a vassal state of England. So what?

The U.S. fought a war of independence, and now a group of gangsters has taken over the government. They are more beholden to corporate and banking interests than they are to their oaths to the constitution. They are trying to legalize the criminal illegals they've encouraged to come to the U.S. American citizens are trying to stop the process because it's national suicide. The media tells liberals it's all about little Maria. The liberals whimper and beg to have their throats cut.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 09:46 AM

LEgalizing thirty million illegal immigrants will create more than twenty-million payers into Social Security. Most illegals are in their twenties, or thirties; it's necessary to have energy, endurance, courage, and a lot of hope to jump the US' borders, especially if you do it on foot through the desert wastes east of here (San Diego) -- it is not a sport for those contemplating retirement.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:07 AM

By the way, Anti-Im, you were going to tell us what kind of music you like to play, sing, or listen to. We actually don't need any politics-only posters on Mudcat. We have a few members already who represent your political perspective--and make more of an effort to make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:42 PM

Believe me, Ron, Anti-Im is well known here. Under other names.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM

Ebbie--

Are you convinced Anti-Im uses other names? I'm not. And I'd be curious to know what kind of music the person likes.

Sounds like Aunty Em--but somehow I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:28 PM

Good example of intolerance. People on mudcat whine that "outsiders" shouldn't be allowed to post, etc., but you want to give my country away to criminal invaders. So you 1) say criminal invaders should be given all the rights of U.S. citizens while 2) think guest posters should be regulated and denied rights on mudcat. Why is that? If you assign an exclusive mindset to one scenario, why don't you to the other?

Possible answers:
A) you're intolerant by nature but have been monkey-trained by the governmen-owned media to give away your country, or
B) you're intolerant by nature but have been monkey-trained by the government-owned media to give away your country.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:21 PM

Yep. That's the one.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM

Sorry, Anti-Im---

On every website there are rules. If you don't like the rules on Mudcat, my heart bleeds for you--and you are welcome to find a site which caters to your specific needs. Good luck finding one.

It is a perfectly reasonable requirement that a poster should stick to one handle. There was even a note to that effect after your first post.

Interesting that you in fact have not said anything about your musical likes, lending credence to the idea that you are in fact one of our delightful politics-only posters.

It may have escaped your amazing powers of perception that this is a music website--primarily "folk"--which is a controversial topic in itself.

But though we also discuss political issues, we all have at least an interest in music--and many are quite talented.

So, again, what are your musical interests?

After that, we can resume discussing your unique theory that "my country" is being "given away" to, what was your charming description--"criminal invaders"?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 08:06 PM

So which ones are not among the talented? You're not very bright, Davies. It's known that immigration and more breeding choices improves the stock, so what went wrong with you? You got my interest now, so tell me, who on mudcat is untalented? You WANTED to talk music. Tell me, then we'll get back to talking immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 09:33 PM

Anti-Im--

Somehow you forgot to tell us what your musical interests are. I don't have to establish that I have quite catholic taste in music--that's pretty well known here. You have yet to establish that you're not one of the more mean-spirited trolls we've been privileged to host on Mudcat. You can prove your bona fides by telling us about your musical interests. And if you don't you've proven that you're a troll--and we will draw the appropriate conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 11:31 PM

"This is a completely solvable issue--or it was before giant intellects like Dobbs and Tancredo started whipping the fearful into a frenzy."

               Ron--Frankly I think Dobbs and Tancredo are right. You are right too when you say this is a perfectly solvable issue.
All we have to do is to enforce the 1986 laws, and the whole thing will straighten itself out. Once they have things under control, than--and only then--they can work on a "guest worker" program.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 11:39 PM

Maybe I'm just an immigrant to this site. Maybe I just came here to crap on it and take screen space away from you. What's it to you? You call your other members no-talent bums and then try to exclude me? Music talk is supposed to take place above the line. I follow the rules, see, and the society benefits here from my presence. How dare you try to exclude me after all I've paid in to the system. You have stopped breeding new neuronic activity and WE will reconquer you because we're lousy with neuronic activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:09 AM

Anti-Im---


.."the society benefits from my presence".    Interesting assertion. Still waiting for any evidence of that.

So far, much as it pains me to say it, I'm afraid the facts point the other way. I've told you how you can remedy the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:33 AM

Ring--

You--and Tancredo and Dobbs--want to put the genie back in the bottle. We need some evidence--as opposed to wild predictions-- from any of you that this wave of immigration is more a danger than any of the preceding ones. Specifically, why do you not think that succeeding generations of Hispanic immigrants will assimilate, just as has always been the case in the past?

And if you don't like illegal immigration, the obvious solution is to make more legal immigration possible. Instead, what I hear from Tancredo, etc. is exhortations to slam the door shut.

Re: Social Security: many illegals are paying into Social Security, which as you know is a program funded by workers for retirees. As long as they are illegal, they will never see any benefits from their contributions. They are lopsidedly not of an age which would benefit from the program. So I would think the illegal immigration opponents would be pushing for a program to legalize them as quickly as possible--to encourage even more to pay into the program.

Also, we both agree the bill as it stands is fatally flawed. However, if the restrictionists would start thinking, they would realize that when this one officially goes down in flames, the problem will not be solved. And-- legal-- Hispanics are the fastest growing ethnic group in the US. Both the Republicans and the Democrats will be pursuing that vote. The next bill will reflect that.

So far more Republicans than Democrats seem to be restrictionist. To current Hispanics--thanks to Tancredo particularly-- it looks like the Republicans at this stage are more than willing to write off their vote. Hence my earlier thread: "Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend".

I'd be interested in any rebuttal of the above--from thinking individuals like yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM

"Specifically, why do you not think that succeeding generations of Hispanic immigrants will assimilate, just as has always been the case in the past?"

            Ron - I think they will eventually assimilate, but they will assimilate to a culture much changed, and changed to their liking. There are a number of things the "pro-immigrant" side fails to take into consideration, or if they do, they don't talk about them. 1--Many of the Latino immigrants now are coming from south of Mexico, Mexico is merely a conduit through which they travel because she shares a border with us. Looking south, there are tens of millions of them. 2--The world population is growing exponentailly, the only way to get a handle on that, is to slow down human migration. 3--There are political factions within the American Latino community who simply want to take over. They say they do and they make no bones about it. Unfortunately, they come from the ranks of the most educated among them. It's been done before--Remember the Alamo.

         Their effect on Socail Security might be the one good thing they do, but once they're legal, they'll drain the system faster than anyone believed possible. As far as the Hispanic vote, see item number three above.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:13 AM

Social Security isn't only for retirees. Dozens of other classes of people draw from it too. And illegals pay taxes from menial wages into the system. They are a drain on the system. They do not benefit this society financially, and the sudden shock of 30 million new people needing immediate social services will kill social security. I read an article by a veteran the other day talking about SS and veterans pensions. Legalize the illegal immigrants, he said, and there will no more money for veterans' benefits. Say no to the criminals who want to crap on your lawn. Send them back from whence they came.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:17 AM

It's been done before--Remember the Alamo. True-except that was illegal immigrants from the US "invading" the new nation of Mexico, which gained its independence from Spain after a long revolutionary war in 1821.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:47 AM

"It's been done before--Remember the Alamo. True-except that was illegal immigrants from the US "invading" the new nation of Mexico, which gained its independence from Spain after a long revolutionary war in 1821."


          That's exactly right, and now they want to get even.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:23 PM

I think this immigration 'problem' is a red herring. As I've said before, all that has to be done is legalize those who are already in the U.S. and then clampdown on employers who hire illegals.

If you think Mexican immigrants are a problem, wait until the world demands that the U.S. take care of the Iraqi refugee problem it has created. I'm sure that the same people who are complaining about Mexican immigrants are going to be whining about giving refuge to Iraqis.

"Over 2 million Iraqis have fled their homeland, most since the U.S. invasion four years ago. Each month an additional 20,000 to 30,000 leave, and that departure rate has swelled to more than 50,000 per month when more borders were open. The Office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees has referred 8,000 Iraqis for resettlement in the United States since the start of the war -- yet merely 701 refugees have been admitted, including only one in April and one in May."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/10/AR2007061000950.html?hpid=opinionsbox2

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:33 PM

No, the Texas war for Independence wasn't at all like that. The Mexicans couldn't hold the northern territories against Indian raiders (Comanche and others), so the Mexicans invited Anglo settlers into the area to help secure the area. It worked. The lands were becoming secure against raids, but then the dictator Santa Ana violated the terms of settlement. The new landowners said no to his demands, and the war was on. Mexico got its ass kicked, and that's that.

Later, in the 1840's, blond haired blue eyed Emperor Maximillian of Mexico made some noises about invading the US, then Mexico sided with the Germans in WW1 and did some border raids, then they sympathized with the Nazis in WW2 but weren't in a position to bother the US. Mexicans need to get away from their strongman rule mentality, then maybe they can make the country a decent place to live.

But Mexico is just a bit of the problem. The Mexican border is a major issue, but many (used to be a majority) of the people coming across that border illegally are European, Asian, Central & South American, etc. A Swiss man I work with came into the US over 10 years ago, and we're still trying to explain the concept of income tax to him. He had a 10-year free ride on paying income tax in the US, same as all other immigrants. That's in the new amnAsty bill, too--a tax moratorium. So this talk about what immigrants "pay in" to the system is a lie. The whole bill is a lie. The Senate was talking about censuring Sen. Sessions of Alabama for making the bill public (remember the article about the '20 loopholes'). The Democrat/Republican criminals are hoping to pass this IN SECRET, it's so bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:57 PM

"I think this immigration 'problem' is a red herring. As I've said before, all that has to be done is legalize those who are already in the U.S. and then clampdown on employers who hire illegals."

                Dianavan - That's exactly what they did in 1986, but there were only 3 to 5 million illegal immigrants at the time. But after legalizing the illegals, no effort was made to crack down on new illegals or the employers. That's why we have 12 to 20 million of them now.
                  The American public does not trust the government to live up to its commitment again this time. That's why the resistance to this immigration bill is so widespread. The government is without crdibility on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

"A Swiss man I work with came into the US over 10 years ago, and we're still trying to explain the concept of income tax to him."

See, not all immigrants are smart. Or maybe it's the teachers who are dumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:26 PM

"But after legalizing the illegals, no effort was made to crack down on new illegals or the employers."

Thats the problem, Riginslinger. You can't legislate unless you're willing to enforce.

I agree that, as its written, the new immigration bill is not the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:37 PM

"Thats the problem, Riginslinger. You can't legislate unless you're willing to enforce."


            dianavan - You're absolutely right, and that's one of the big problems. People living in places like California and Arizona at the time of the 1986 amnesty plan remember exactly that. They granted amnesty to millions of illegals then, and did nothing by way of enforcement--nothing at all--that's why so many people living in those and other border states don't believe a word the government says.
            Then when you throw in the intense degree of credibility that George W. Bush has earned to bring to the issue, you can see where folks are with the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM

Ring--

Many of the "Latino" immigrants come from south of Mexico? So they walk through Mexico on the way to the US? (Since we agree, I suspect, that they are mainly poor and undereducated.) Could we have some evidence of their origins?

Factions with the Hispanic community want to "take over"? There are firebrands in every movement. John Brown was a firebrand and a murderer. Does this mean abolition was wrong? Do you agree with everything Tancredo and Dobbs say? I'll bet I can find something you don't buy.

Do you agree that as people get more educated and less poor, they realize the benefits of smaller families? If so--and I would assert this--the best way to get a handle on world population growth is to educate the poor and try to help them climb up the economic scale.

Once the illegals are legal, they'll "drain the Social Security system faster than anyone believed possible". Exactly how will they do this, if they are by a wide margin, of working age, not retirement age?

Also, as I said, why are restrictionists trying to kill this bill, when the next one on the topic is guaranteed to be less to their liking--for the reason I cited?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:35 PM

"Factions within"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:44 PM

Well, back to the question: Where have all you anit-ims been the last 20 years??? Wonder why you all weren't screaming during the 90's when the economy was good, muchly being fueled by "illegal" immigrants...

Secondly, are you anti-ims ready for food prices to increase a 100% or are you content letting prisoners, like in Colorado, become a new slave class for Boss Hog's agri-businesses...

Thirdly, it seems that most of the folks who have become so enraged on late are conservatives whyo love nuthin' more than to tote out their "family values" BS every election cycle... How about the millions of Hispanic kids that have been born and lived their entire lives on US soil??? Send mom and dad away and put 'um in, ahhhhhh, adoption homes??? Family values, my butt!!!

There is no Christain or moral basis for what the conservatives are demanding here... Just a lotta hot air and hypocrisy...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:30 PM

"Do you agree with everything Tancredo and Dobbs say? I'll bet I can find something you don't buy."

                I'm not sure about Dobbs--I think he believes that "supply side" economics is a good thing, and I do not. But as far as Tancredo is concerned, I disagree with just about everything else he stands for, but this is an overriding issue. It makes all the other political problems shrink in comparison. He proved himself to be as idiotic as all the other Christ-freaks when he raised his hand in the Republican debate to declare that he doesn't believe in evolution. But this is more important.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:31 PM

Under the bill they just tried to sneak through the US Senate, criminal illegals would have been given a FIVE YEAR NO-TAX period. No taxes at all. So, exactly how would they help Social Security and such if they pay no taxes?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:39 PM

So you'd be okay with a program that aloowed the some 12M "illegals" a gateway to citzenship if they were to pay into the Social Security system???

Yes _____

No ______

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:44 PM

Have you read that bill, Anti? I have. Please provide the Title, Subtitle and Section that grants an exception to taxes. Section 245B(a)(1)(E)(ii), by the way, requires payment of retroactive income taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:25 AM

"Wonder why you all weren't screaming during the 90's when the economy was good, muchly being fueled by "illegal" immigrants..."

          Bobert - I don't know where you are, but where I am the economy is a lot better now than it was in the 90's. I was in California in the 90's and the illegal immigrants were absolutely destroying the place.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM

I'm in Virgina now, Rigs... Up until 2 years ago I was in Wes Ginny... In both states, IMO, things were better in the 90's than they are now...

Run away inflation is more of a problem than Hispanics, who BTW, have been responsible for keeping our food prices stable whilke everything else has jumped thru the roof...

Take away the immigrants and then even food prices will go outta control... Unless the US decides that slave labor (prisoners) should be forced to grow our food???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:10 PM

Ring--

Your fear of illegal immigrants outweighs your rather strong distaste for the "Christian Right"?   Why? You'd actually vote for a fundamentalist if he promised to stop the flow of illegals? There must be some other factor.

So far I've seen no actual facts by any immigration opponents--lots of incendiary predictions but no facts -- that illegal immigration is a danger to anybody--except the immigrants themselves. And as I've said, if you're against illegal immigration, you should be favor of increasing legal immigration substantially--(since one way or another, the immigrants will come.)    But I don't hear that from the folks yelling "Amnesty!"

And if we cut down on illegal immigration--by expanding legal immigration--the Border Patrol, etc. could do what they should be doing--combating crime and possible terrorism--not stopping people who want to work.