BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:20 AM

No, that's subsection (D)(i) in the OTHER bill, the bill with McCain's special amendment. That's what Sessions is talking about. The subsection exists, but it says:
``(D) IN GENERAL.--The alien may satisfy such requirement by establishing that--

``(i) no such tax liability exists;

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1846416/posts

So McCain refers to a subsection that says the criminal illegal can claim no taxes are due. And the criminal illegal is provided free lawyers by the US taxpayers to argue the claim. McCain should be locked up for that. It's treason against the country he swore to protect. The source document on that is the Constitution.

As far as the NEW "reform" bill and the 24-hour thing:

Section 601(h) Treatment of Applicants

(1) IN GENERAL —An alien who files application for Z-nonimmigrant status shall, upon submission of any evidence required under paragraphs (f) and (g) and after the Secretary has conducted appropriate background checks, to include name and fingerprint checks, that have not by the end of the next business day produced information rendering the applicant ineligible

(A) be granted probationary benefits in the form of employment authorization pending final adjudication of the alien's application;

B) may in the Secretary's discretion receive advance permission to re-enter the United States pursuant to existing regulations governing advance parole;

(C) may not be detained for immigration purposes, determined inadmissible or deportable, or removed pending final adjudication of the alien's application, unless the alient is determined to be ineligible for Z nonimmigration status; and

(D) may not be considered an unauthorized alien (as defined in Section 274A(h)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1324a(h)(3))) unless employment authorization under subparagraph (A) is denied.

Read this any way you want, but after that period, they're in. And if they want to fight it, the US taxpayers have to provide them with free lawyers. That's in the bill too.

This bill is meant to bankrupt America's social services. You old farts living off the tit better pull free long enough to castigate the McCain-like traitors on this. When they want to kick America in the groin they vote 100-0, like on the Real I.D. Act. Call your reps and tell them you will hold them PERSONALLY responsible if they vote for any bills like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:43 AM

"'put a damper on human migration'". Sorry, that won't do any good in this world--"

             Ron - That's the only thing that will do any good, and in Europe they're trying to do it. We have a much simpler problem to solve than they do, but we have an administration that has no vision.

             Having immigrants come here before they decide to limit the sizes of their families only puts the burden on us and does nothing to help the places they came from. And to have them start climbing the economic ladder only makes "super consumers" out of them once they get here.
             Your proposals will destroy the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:48 AM

That is Senate Bill 1348, Anti - introduced 5/9/07. And Section (D)(i), which your quote says does not exist, reads as follows:
(D) EMPLOYMENT IN UNITED STATES-
    (i) IN GENERAL- The alien shall have been employed in the United States, in the aggregate, for--
       (I) at least 3 years during the 5-year period ending on April 5, 2006; and
       (II) at least 6 years after the date of enactment of the Immigrant Accountability Act of 2007.

I am unable to find anything in the Bill that implies that there is a 24-hour requirement to complete all checks. The only thing I can locate that relates to background checks refers to migrants in the temporary worker program, which says:
Sec 218(d) Background Checks- The Secretary of Homeland Security shall not admit, and the Secretary of State shall not issue a visa to, an alien seeking H-2C nonimmigrant status unless all appropriate background checks have been completed. No time frame is stated or implied.

SA 1190 requires the payment of back taxes, rather thn "requiring proof of payment of future taxes".

This is all, by the way, part of what historians refer to as "primary source documentation". That is, looking at the original documents, rather than relying upon what someone else, even the honorable Senator from Alabama, says that they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:47 AM

Anti-Immigrant- you've got more than just the one problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:51 PM

Who benefits from killing America? Well, gee, whoever benefitted from killing Argentina a while back. The IMF/World Bank. You folks look up the World Bank and...here, I'll do it:

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTHRJOBS/0,,contentMDK:20991366~menuPK:1477662~pagePK:64262408~piPK:64262191~theSitePK:1058433,00.html

The World Bank Group's mission is to fight poverty and improve the living standards of people in the developing world. It is a development Bank which provides loans, policy advice, technical assistance and knowledge sharing services to low and middle income countries to reduce poverty.

The Bank promotes growth to create jobs and to empower poor people to take advantage of these opportunities...

That's just a quick, random search of what's on the web about the World Bank. Look at some of the members of the Bank. Thousands of organizations have crumbs of the pie, but the big pieces are owned by the old royal families and the banking consortiums headed by people like the Rockefellers, Mellons, Morgans, etc.

That quote about the Bank sounds pretty positive, right? Pretty "empowering." What they don't mention is that the way the Bank provides loans to a country like Iraq, say, is to seize all their oil, then loan Iraq money collateralized by the oil, and charge 40% interest on the money. The Bank calls this "empowering" poor countries.

And what's being done in Iraq is about to be done in America. The U.S. is run by corporate concerns that have nothing to do with national political ideologies or politics. Those things are just masks and diversions to keep us from understanding what's really going on. And what's going on is that the U.S. is being prepped for dismemberment. We are no longer needed as the world's offshore bank. Hell, Hershey chocolate is evacuating, moving to Mexico. The other day I read that in the past year, more companies have fled the U.S. than in the previous ten. The field is being cleared for battle. Literally.

Soon, the bankers will trigger "spontaneous" race wars. In the southwest. Witness the amnesty issue right now. Rioting will break out (CIA job), and the partitioning of the country will begin. The North American Union was begun two years ago and will technically end with a unified continent, but within that will be ten regional governments. Just like there are to be three in Iraq. This stuff is planned years ahead and then implemented methodically. The southwest U.S. will be under a pseudo-Mexican command most likely, to make the Mexicans and the American liberals happy, and the rest of the country will...hell, just look it up online. The Pentagon laid this out years ago.

The U.S. is about to have its dollar killed. Bush or Clinton will attempt martial law, and millions will die. Many will die because they've lost their property and can't compete on the streets with the felons the Dems/Reps just legalized, and many will die fighting the "foreign assets" that Bush/Clinton "reluctantly" calls in because our troops are tied down overseas. American liberals will see the co-mingling of troops as a good thing right up until the moment they catch a Nato round between the eyes.

Personally, I think we should just arrest all feds. They've entered us into World Bank contracts without our full consent and knowledge, so we have a legal right to default on our debts. Put the traitors on trial and execute them of course, and while the U.N. tries to claim "their" property that was put up as collateral for World Bank loans (the Great Lakes, the national parks, etc.), we need to secure the borders and then start building up our manufacturing again. Nothing else will save the U.S. And all this frigging concern over minimum wages and "inflation" when the dollar is fixing to be the world's next toilet paper is just sad. Pathetic. I'll never understand how the internet generation let this happen. All the answers right there at your fingertips, and you let this happen to our country.

The best thing Americans can do right now is admit that we've been had. Get your kids out of the military and talk to cops about what's going on. The multi-trillionaires that run the world are about to foment a shooting situation in America, and our local cops and our troops need to be on OUR side.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:32 PM

"put a damper on human migration". Sorry, that won't do any good in this world--if there is large economic--or other-- incentive to migrate, humans will migrate.

A much better, and more practical, approach, would be to try to educate the poor--since with education comes a realization of the advantages of smaller families. It has certainly been so in the waves of migration to the US---which is the issue at hand.

And to try to get them climbing the economic ladder--to avoid being a drain on financial resources--since that seems to be a main objection of the restrictionists--at least the rational ones--the ones not yelling about "blatant, public treason".

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:59 PM

"This legislation is meant to kill America."


             Anti-Im - Now all we have to do is figure out who has a vested interest in killing America, and we're on our way to unravelling the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:45 PM

Yo, GUest, AG...

What world do you live in???

Health care costs have almost doubled in the last 7 years...

Energy costs have doubled in the last 7 years...

(Oh, those kinds of things aren't factored into the Bush administration's inflation figures???)

Unless you are posting from a cooectional or mental health facility and have been in it for the last 7 years then the only reason that I can think of as to mhy you are so outta touch with the real world is that you are a crack-head???

You certainly aren't living in ***this*** real world...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:32 PM

artbrooks -- those sections, paragraphs, etc. are from LAST year's attempt at legalizing these criminals, aren't they?

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~pol_s.359/immig.html

I'll check, but I think we're into 2007 now. And according to one of the people who was expected to rubber stamp this:

Last year's bill required illegal aliens to prove they had paid three of their last five years of taxes to get amnesty. This year, payment of back taxes is not required for amnesty. The bill requires taxes to be paid at the time of application for a green card, but at that time, only proof of payment of Federal taxes (not state and local) is required for the years the alien worked on a Z visa, not the years the alien has already worked illegally in the United States.   Though Senator McCain's S.A. 1190, adopted by voice vote, claimed to "require undocumented immigrants receiving legal status to pay owed back taxes," the amendment actually only required proof of payment of taxes for "any year during the period of employment required by subparagraph (D)(i)." Since the bill does not contain a subparagraph (D)(i), nor require any past years of employment as a prerequisite for amnesty, the amendment essentially only requires proof of payment of taxes for future work in the U.S., not payment of "back taxes." [See p. 307, and p. 293 as altered by S.A. 1190, amendment p. 2: 19-20.]

http://sessions.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=275456

The nasty thing about the bill they just tried to pass in secret is that it would give the government just 24 hours to make a decision on an application. One day to dig up an individual's convoluted history and say yes or no to legality. That's not enough time for the govt to do anything, so that means all criminals will get a free pass into the U.S., and the decision is irrevocable.

This legislation is meant to kill America.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,AG
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:10 AM

"Runaway Inflation"? What Country do you live in? Obviously not the U.S.

Plus tax collections going to D.C. have recently been at record levels. You might see "runaway inflation" when the tax cuts of the past 6 years are rescinded.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:13 AM

"You'd actually vote for a fundamentalist if he promised to stop the flow of illegals?"


                I'm not sure, but I'd think about it.

    "So far I've seen no actual facts by any immigration opponents--lots of incendiary predictions but no facts -- that illegal immigration is a danger to anybody--"


                Here's a fact. When the world was populated by a bunch of hunter/gatherers there were not very many people and there was very little man made degradation of the environment. By the turn of the twentieth century there were a lot more people and a lot greater man made degradation of the environment. Now there is more degradation than there was 100 years ago, and the population has risen alarmingly. If we don't do something about human population growth mankind might very well consume the planet.
                The one best thing that can be done to slow human popultaion growth is to put a damper on human migration. If your going to put out a fire, you have to control it first.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:10 PM

Ring--

Your fear of illegal immigrants outweighs your rather strong distaste for the "Christian Right"?   Why? You'd actually vote for a fundamentalist if he promised to stop the flow of illegals? There must be some other factor.

So far I've seen no actual facts by any immigration opponents--lots of incendiary predictions but no facts -- that illegal immigration is a danger to anybody--except the immigrants themselves. And as I've said, if you're against illegal immigration, you should be favor of increasing legal immigration substantially--(since one way or another, the immigrants will come.)    But I don't hear that from the folks yelling "Amnesty!"

And if we cut down on illegal immigration--by expanding legal immigration--the Border Patrol, etc. could do what they should be doing--combating crime and possible terrorism--not stopping people who want to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM

I'm in Virgina now, Rigs... Up until 2 years ago I was in Wes Ginny... In both states, IMO, things were better in the 90's than they are now...

Run away inflation is more of a problem than Hispanics, who BTW, have been responsible for keeping our food prices stable whilke everything else has jumped thru the roof...

Take away the immigrants and then even food prices will go outta control... Unless the US decides that slave labor (prisoners) should be forced to grow our food???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:25 AM

"Wonder why you all weren't screaming during the 90's when the economy was good, muchly being fueled by "illegal" immigrants..."

          Bobert - I don't know where you are, but where I am the economy is a lot better now than it was in the 90's. I was in California in the 90's and the illegal immigrants were absolutely destroying the place.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:44 PM

Have you read that bill, Anti? I have. Please provide the Title, Subtitle and Section that grants an exception to taxes. Section 245B(a)(1)(E)(ii), by the way, requires payment of retroactive income taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:39 PM

So you'd be okay with a program that aloowed the some 12M "illegals" a gateway to citzenship if they were to pay into the Social Security system???

Yes _____

No ______

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:31 PM

Under the bill they just tried to sneak through the US Senate, criminal illegals would have been given a FIVE YEAR NO-TAX period. No taxes at all. So, exactly how would they help Social Security and such if they pay no taxes?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:30 PM

"Do you agree with everything Tancredo and Dobbs say? I'll bet I can find something you don't buy."

                I'm not sure about Dobbs--I think he believes that "supply side" economics is a good thing, and I do not. But as far as Tancredo is concerned, I disagree with just about everything else he stands for, but this is an overriding issue. It makes all the other political problems shrink in comparison. He proved himself to be as idiotic as all the other Christ-freaks when he raised his hand in the Republican debate to declare that he doesn't believe in evolution. But this is more important.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:44 PM

Well, back to the question: Where have all you anit-ims been the last 20 years??? Wonder why you all weren't screaming during the 90's when the economy was good, muchly being fueled by "illegal" immigrants...

Secondly, are you anti-ims ready for food prices to increase a 100% or are you content letting prisoners, like in Colorado, become a new slave class for Boss Hog's agri-businesses...

Thirdly, it seems that most of the folks who have become so enraged on late are conservatives whyo love nuthin' more than to tote out their "family values" BS every election cycle... How about the millions of Hispanic kids that have been born and lived their entire lives on US soil??? Send mom and dad away and put 'um in, ahhhhhh, adoption homes??? Family values, my butt!!!

There is no Christain or moral basis for what the conservatives are demanding here... Just a lotta hot air and hypocrisy...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:35 PM

"Factions within"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM

Ring--

Many of the "Latino" immigrants come from south of Mexico? So they walk through Mexico on the way to the US? (Since we agree, I suspect, that they are mainly poor and undereducated.) Could we have some evidence of their origins?

Factions with the Hispanic community want to "take over"? There are firebrands in every movement. John Brown was a firebrand and a murderer. Does this mean abolition was wrong? Do you agree with everything Tancredo and Dobbs say? I'll bet I can find something you don't buy.

Do you agree that as people get more educated and less poor, they realize the benefits of smaller families? If so--and I would assert this--the best way to get a handle on world population growth is to educate the poor and try to help them climb up the economic scale.

Once the illegals are legal, they'll "drain the Social Security system faster than anyone believed possible". Exactly how will they do this, if they are by a wide margin, of working age, not retirement age?

Also, as I said, why are restrictionists trying to kill this bill, when the next one on the topic is guaranteed to be less to their liking--for the reason I cited?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:37 PM

"Thats the problem, Riginslinger. You can't legislate unless you're willing to enforce."


            dianavan - You're absolutely right, and that's one of the big problems. People living in places like California and Arizona at the time of the 1986 amnesty plan remember exactly that. They granted amnesty to millions of illegals then, and did nothing by way of enforcement--nothing at all--that's why so many people living in those and other border states don't believe a word the government says.
            Then when you throw in the intense degree of credibility that George W. Bush has earned to bring to the issue, you can see where folks are with the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:26 PM

"But after legalizing the illegals, no effort was made to crack down on new illegals or the employers."

Thats the problem, Riginslinger. You can't legislate unless you're willing to enforce.

I agree that, as its written, the new immigration bill is not the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

"A Swiss man I work with came into the US over 10 years ago, and we're still trying to explain the concept of income tax to him."

See, not all immigrants are smart. Or maybe it's the teachers who are dumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:57 PM

"I think this immigration 'problem' is a red herring. As I've said before, all that has to be done is legalize those who are already in the U.S. and then clampdown on employers who hire illegals."

                Dianavan - That's exactly what they did in 1986, but there were only 3 to 5 million illegal immigrants at the time. But after legalizing the illegals, no effort was made to crack down on new illegals or the employers. That's why we have 12 to 20 million of them now.
                  The American public does not trust the government to live up to its commitment again this time. That's why the resistance to this immigration bill is so widespread. The government is without crdibility on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:33 PM

No, the Texas war for Independence wasn't at all like that. The Mexicans couldn't hold the northern territories against Indian raiders (Comanche and others), so the Mexicans invited Anglo settlers into the area to help secure the area. It worked. The lands were becoming secure against raids, but then the dictator Santa Ana violated the terms of settlement. The new landowners said no to his demands, and the war was on. Mexico got its ass kicked, and that's that.

Later, in the 1840's, blond haired blue eyed Emperor Maximillian of Mexico made some noises about invading the US, then Mexico sided with the Germans in WW1 and did some border raids, then they sympathized with the Nazis in WW2 but weren't in a position to bother the US. Mexicans need to get away from their strongman rule mentality, then maybe they can make the country a decent place to live.

But Mexico is just a bit of the problem. The Mexican border is a major issue, but many (used to be a majority) of the people coming across that border illegally are European, Asian, Central & South American, etc. A Swiss man I work with came into the US over 10 years ago, and we're still trying to explain the concept of income tax to him. He had a 10-year free ride on paying income tax in the US, same as all other immigrants. That's in the new amnAsty bill, too--a tax moratorium. So this talk about what immigrants "pay in" to the system is a lie. The whole bill is a lie. The Senate was talking about censuring Sen. Sessions of Alabama for making the bill public (remember the article about the '20 loopholes'). The Democrat/Republican criminals are hoping to pass this IN SECRET, it's so bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:23 PM

I think this immigration 'problem' is a red herring. As I've said before, all that has to be done is legalize those who are already in the U.S. and then clampdown on employers who hire illegals.

If you think Mexican immigrants are a problem, wait until the world demands that the U.S. take care of the Iraqi refugee problem it has created. I'm sure that the same people who are complaining about Mexican immigrants are going to be whining about giving refuge to Iraqis.

"Over 2 million Iraqis have fled their homeland, most since the U.S. invasion four years ago. Each month an additional 20,000 to 30,000 leave, and that departure rate has swelled to more than 50,000 per month when more borders were open. The Office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees has referred 8,000 Iraqis for resettlement in the United States since the start of the war -- yet merely 701 refugees have been admitted, including only one in April and one in May."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/10/AR2007061000950.html?hpid=opinionsbox2

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:47 AM

"It's been done before--Remember the Alamo. True-except that was illegal immigrants from the US "invading" the new nation of Mexico, which gained its independence from Spain after a long revolutionary war in 1821."


          That's exactly right, and now they want to get even.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:17 AM

It's been done before--Remember the Alamo. True-except that was illegal immigrants from the US "invading" the new nation of Mexico, which gained its independence from Spain after a long revolutionary war in 1821.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:13 AM

Social Security isn't only for retirees. Dozens of other classes of people draw from it too. And illegals pay taxes from menial wages into the system. They are a drain on the system. They do not benefit this society financially, and the sudden shock of 30 million new people needing immediate social services will kill social security. I read an article by a veteran the other day talking about SS and veterans pensions. Legalize the illegal immigrants, he said, and there will no more money for veterans' benefits. Say no to the criminals who want to crap on your lawn. Send them back from whence they came.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM

"Specifically, why do you not think that succeeding generations of Hispanic immigrants will assimilate, just as has always been the case in the past?"

            Ron - I think they will eventually assimilate, but they will assimilate to a culture much changed, and changed to their liking. There are a number of things the "pro-immigrant" side fails to take into consideration, or if they do, they don't talk about them. 1--Many of the Latino immigrants now are coming from south of Mexico, Mexico is merely a conduit through which they travel because she shares a border with us. Looking south, there are tens of millions of them. 2--The world population is growing exponentailly, the only way to get a handle on that, is to slow down human migration. 3--There are political factions within the American Latino community who simply want to take over. They say they do and they make no bones about it. Unfortunately, they come from the ranks of the most educated among them. It's been done before--Remember the Alamo.

         Their effect on Socail Security might be the one good thing they do, but once they're legal, they'll drain the system faster than anyone believed possible. As far as the Hispanic vote, see item number three above.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:33 AM

Ring--

You--and Tancredo and Dobbs--want to put the genie back in the bottle. We need some evidence--as opposed to wild predictions-- from any of you that this wave of immigration is more a danger than any of the preceding ones. Specifically, why do you not think that succeeding generations of Hispanic immigrants will assimilate, just as has always been the case in the past?

And if you don't like illegal immigration, the obvious solution is to make more legal immigration possible. Instead, what I hear from Tancredo, etc. is exhortations to slam the door shut.

Re: Social Security: many illegals are paying into Social Security, which as you know is a program funded by workers for retirees. As long as they are illegal, they will never see any benefits from their contributions. They are lopsidedly not of an age which would benefit from the program. So I would think the illegal immigration opponents would be pushing for a program to legalize them as quickly as possible--to encourage even more to pay into the program.

Also, we both agree the bill as it stands is fatally flawed. However, if the restrictionists would start thinking, they would realize that when this one officially goes down in flames, the problem will not be solved. And-- legal-- Hispanics are the fastest growing ethnic group in the US. Both the Republicans and the Democrats will be pursuing that vote. The next bill will reflect that.

So far more Republicans than Democrats seem to be restrictionist. To current Hispanics--thanks to Tancredo particularly-- it looks like the Republicans at this stage are more than willing to write off their vote. Hence my earlier thread: "Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend".

I'd be interested in any rebuttal of the above--from thinking individuals like yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:09 AM

Anti-Im---


.."the society benefits from my presence".    Interesting assertion. Still waiting for any evidence of that.

So far, much as it pains me to say it, I'm afraid the facts point the other way. I've told you how you can remedy the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 11:39 PM

Maybe I'm just an immigrant to this site. Maybe I just came here to crap on it and take screen space away from you. What's it to you? You call your other members no-talent bums and then try to exclude me? Music talk is supposed to take place above the line. I follow the rules, see, and the society benefits here from my presence. How dare you try to exclude me after all I've paid in to the system. You have stopped breeding new neuronic activity and WE will reconquer you because we're lousy with neuronic activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 11:31 PM

"This is a completely solvable issue--or it was before giant intellects like Dobbs and Tancredo started whipping the fearful into a frenzy."

               Ron--Frankly I think Dobbs and Tancredo are right. You are right too when you say this is a perfectly solvable issue.
All we have to do is to enforce the 1986 laws, and the whole thing will straighten itself out. Once they have things under control, than--and only then--they can work on a "guest worker" program.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 09:33 PM

Anti-Im--

Somehow you forgot to tell us what your musical interests are. I don't have to establish that I have quite catholic taste in music--that's pretty well known here. You have yet to establish that you're not one of the more mean-spirited trolls we've been privileged to host on Mudcat. You can prove your bona fides by telling us about your musical interests. And if you don't you've proven that you're a troll--and we will draw the appropriate conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 08:06 PM

So which ones are not among the talented? You're not very bright, Davies. It's known that immigration and more breeding choices improves the stock, so what went wrong with you? You got my interest now, so tell me, who on mudcat is untalented? You WANTED to talk music. Tell me, then we'll get back to talking immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM

Sorry, Anti-Im---

On every website there are rules. If you don't like the rules on Mudcat, my heart bleeds for you--and you are welcome to find a site which caters to your specific needs. Good luck finding one.

It is a perfectly reasonable requirement that a poster should stick to one handle. There was even a note to that effect after your first post.

Interesting that you in fact have not said anything about your musical likes, lending credence to the idea that you are in fact one of our delightful politics-only posters.

It may have escaped your amazing powers of perception that this is a music website--primarily "folk"--which is a controversial topic in itself.

But though we also discuss political issues, we all have at least an interest in music--and many are quite talented.

So, again, what are your musical interests?

After that, we can resume discussing your unique theory that "my country" is being "given away" to, what was your charming description--"criminal invaders"?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:21 PM

Yep. That's the one.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:28 PM

Good example of intolerance. People on mudcat whine that "outsiders" shouldn't be allowed to post, etc., but you want to give my country away to criminal invaders. So you 1) say criminal invaders should be given all the rights of U.S. citizens while 2) think guest posters should be regulated and denied rights on mudcat. Why is that? If you assign an exclusive mindset to one scenario, why don't you to the other?

Possible answers:
A) you're intolerant by nature but have been monkey-trained by the governmen-owned media to give away your country, or
B) you're intolerant by nature but have been monkey-trained by the government-owned media to give away your country.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM

Ebbie--

Are you convinced Anti-Im uses other names? I'm not. And I'd be curious to know what kind of music the person likes.

Sounds like Aunty Em--but somehow I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:42 PM

Believe me, Ron, Anti-Im is well known here. Under other names.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:07 AM

By the way, Anti-Im, you were going to tell us what kind of music you like to play, sing, or listen to. We actually don't need any politics-only posters on Mudcat. We have a few members already who represent your political perspective--and make more of an effort to make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 09:46 AM

LEgalizing thirty million illegal immigrants will create more than twenty-million payers into Social Security. Most illegals are in their twenties, or thirties; it's necessary to have energy, endurance, courage, and a lot of hope to jump the US' borders, especially if you do it on foot through the desert wastes east of here (San Diego) -- it is not a sport for those contemplating retirement.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM

For starters, legalizing 30 million illegals will kill Social Security. And the media focuses people's attention on poor little Maria or Vlad or Mickey and you forget what the featured individual really is--a criminal. Why do you think they call them "illegal" immigrants?

You liberals have really had your thinking on this screwed up. You aren't very bright. A good example of this is dianavan's article. Something about the Governor General of Canada:

"The Governor General is the Queen's personal representative in Canada and is appointed by the Sovereign upon the advice of the Prime Minister. As Canada's 27th Governor General, the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean carries out Her Majesty's duties in Canada on a daily basis."

What does that have to do with anything? So Canada is a vassal state of England. So what?

The U.S. fought a war of independence, and now a group of gangsters has taken over the government. They are more beholden to corporate and banking interests than they are to their oaths to the constitution. They are trying to legalize the criminal illegals they've encouraged to come to the U.S. American citizens are trying to stop the process because it's national suicide. The media tells liberals it's all about little Maria. The liberals whimper and beg to have their throats cut.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 09:23 AM

Ring--

What I should have said is that politicians rarely lead away from bigotry and fear.

Bush actually had decent instincts--for a change--on the immigration issue. But didn't have the guts to actually propose a bill that made sense. Even though he will never run again--for which we can be eternally grateful. And even though he supposedly is concerned about his precious "legacy"--and since he's blown Iraq so badly and as a result may not have the strength to salvage Afghanistan, foreign policy is a total loss--while immigration reform is supposed to be something he actually accomplished. Fat chance.


He should have pointed out that a fence is totally worthless--and come out against "touch-back"--which as I said earlier is just a tease--any sensible person is not about to leave his home and family--on the off-chance that the brand new government program to let him back in the country will work flawlessly--when there are strong forces in the US trying to keep him out. Anybody who says they like immigrants but is in favor of "touch-back" is just not honest enough to admit he or she wants the illegal immigrants gone.

And, as I said earlier, should be careful what they wish for.

The $5,000 fine should have been cut down to something workable--maybe $500.

The people who predict the demographic "brown peril", amazingly like the "yellow peril", and the "Irish peril" etc. should start thinking. As I also pointed out, by and large, families go down in size with education. It's been that way with every group of immigrants so far--and there's no reason to think it will be different this time.

Also, Spanish is not about to displace English in the US. I've recently read that 94% of 3rd generation Mexicans in the US prefer to speak English--and many can't even speak Spanish.

This is a completely solvable issue--or it was before giant intellects like Dobbs and Tancredo started whipping the fearful into a frenzy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:27 AM

"Look at the brilliant successes of Bush's Iraq propaganda campaign (summer 2002 to March 2003) -- and his 2004 campaign."

             Ron--Wasn't that leadership? And when the truth finally came out, why would anyone be surprised that he wasn't allowed to lead on anything else?

             In all reality, though, the immigration bill that was proposed in the Senate didn't seem workable to me before it got out of the gate. And given the shameless way the 1986 laws were ignored, I don't see anyway they'll ever be able to do anything about immigration until they control the people coming into the country first. Once they can demonstrate they have control of the situation, I think most people would happily go along with a guest worker program.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:09 AM

Sorry, you can't blame this one on politicians. They respond to their constituents--and rarely lead. And if they try to lead their constituents away from bigotry and fear, they often become a profile in courage out of a job. The problem is that Anti-Im's sentiments reflect more than just one person. In the US--and not just in the US--unthinking fear has always--and still is--a big part of the political landscape.   Look at the brilliant successes of Bush's Iraq propaganda campaign (summer 2002 to March 2003) -- and his 2004 campaign.

And bigots (and, it seems, sheep) can--and do--vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:28 AM

"Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals"
Politicians are already legal. That's the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 01:40 AM

Well, Art - Since I live in Canada, I'm afraid if I go to the States, I might get tortured or shot. You should come up here but be careful when you try to return; the U.S. might think you are an illegal trying to kill them all for the crime of being White. Whatever you do, do not speak a word of Spanish at the border.

Eat your heart out, Anti-Im -

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dnd.ca/site/Governor_General/images/M_Jean_512.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dnd.ca/site/Governor_General/index_e.asp&h=258&w=200&sz=13&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=rWsJIm1ua5ihvM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMichaelle%2BJEAN%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN