BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 08:09 AM

By Faye Bowers, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Thu Jul 5, 4:00 AM ET



Phoenix - Arizona leads the nation in population growth. More illegal immigrants cross its border than any other in the United States. Now, in an apparent backlash to those trends, the state is leading the charge to halt illegal immigration by cracking down on employers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 08:35 AM

"Why spend the money on "18,000 border guards" or "detention" when all you have to do is start "Punishing employers who hire illegal aliens"? Wonder why this is the last big idea on their list?"


         dianavan - I agree with you completely. The whole thing doesn't seem to make any sense at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:04 PM

Why spend the money on "18,000 border guards" or "detention" when all you have to do is start "Punishing employers who hire illegal aliens"? Wonder why this is the last big idea on their list?

The Secure Borders FIRST Act of 2007 will just add another layer of costly bureacracy and further criminalize a segment of the population who have contributed so much to America. Of course if you want to stir up hatred and punish people for trying to provide for their families, Congressmen Peter King and Lamar Smith will do a good job of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 09:25 AM

From an email I got after the bill was defeated:

Now that the Bush-Kennedy-McCain amnesty is dead and the open borders crowd is in total disarray, we must press ahead to pass the The Secure Borders FIRST Act of 2007, sponsored by Congressmen Peter King and Lamar Smith because the current status quo is unacceptable.

We need to regain control of our borders and ramp up enforcement. This bill does it by:

• Requiring mandatory detention for all illegal immigrants apprehended along the border;
• Expedited removal for any illegal aliens apprehended within 100 miles of the border;
• Deploying at least 18,000 more border patrol agents by Dec. 31, 2008;
• Funding and reaffirming the authority of state and local police to apprehend and detain illegal aliens;
• Mandating the use of electronic employment eligibility verification system (formerly voluntary);
• Eliminating loopholes in current law that allows illegal immigrants to receive Social Security benefits from their illegal work, if they are later legalized;
• Banning the use of Matricula Consular cards, identification cards issued to illegal aliens by Mexican consulates to enable them to open bank accounts, buy homes and obtain other forms of identification; • Making English the official language of the United States;
• Mandating the full implementation of US-VISIT, the visa entry-exit system intended to track visa overstayers – a critical system to protect us from terrorism; and
• Punishing employers who hire illegal aliens.

As you can see, this is a powerful alternative to the Bush-Kennedy-McCain amnesty.

In a few days, I'll send you some of the tools necessary to start building support for the King-Smith bill as well as other great House enforcement bills offered by real immigration reformers like Elton Gallegly, Tom Tancredo, Virgil Goode, Walter Jones and others.

But for now, I hope you will enjoy your Fourth of July with a renewed appreciation of the fact of what it means to be an American and that we, the people, once aroused, can reclaim our government and bring to heel those elected officials who forget that, at the end of the day, they are answerable to us.

Best Regards,

Edward I. Nelson, Chairman
U.S. Border Control

(Bush and Kennedy were actually hoping to sign this America-killing bill on July 4, Independence Day. I don't know much about this group, though I signed a couple of their petitions. Some of the things in the above seem to be for show, like a mere 18,000 border guards, but at least this group is offering a chance to push back against the globalist/corporate elite crowd. Since Bush/McCain were willing to pardon the crimes of 30 million "new Americans" and give them a 5-year tax holiday, I want a bill that does that for middle-class Americans too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:22 AM

dianavan - I think you're right. If Georgie really wants to do something about immigration before the end of his term, he would need to go into high gear with enforcement now. That would mean fining employers. If he does it, he could come back to Congress with some degree of credibility. If not, I think it's a dead issue until he's gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianvan
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:47 AM

Hooray!

It was stupid and cumbersome.

Maybe now they can get down to enforcement by fining the employers.

Of course Georgie boy will try to convince the Mexican-Americans with a vote, that at least he tried.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 12:57 PM

Well, for whatever reason, at least it's defeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:50 PM

Sorry about this post:

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:09 PM

Wrong thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:46 PM

Please, all you "Keep America Pure" types, do your best to defeat this bill. It's a bad bill--for exactly the opposite reason that you think it is. And, just think, the next one will be even worse for you----and better for people who want a fair shake for immigrants. Since both parties will be angling for the Hispanic vote more and more. ( Not that we can expect you to recognize that fact.)

So, by all means, have at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:34 PM

Nope, sorry. I live in the southwest, and I know that "illegals" have nothing to do with the percent of Hispanic population.

In the first place, the ancestors of many of the Hispanics in New Mexico have been here for 400 years or so. In the second place, like African-Americans, Hispanics are defined as people with any percentage of descent from a Spanish-speaking country, so our governor (you may have heard of him-running for president), whose father's family is from Boston and whose mother is from Mexico, is Hispanic. Our mayor, Marty Chavez, has plenty of non-Hispanics in his family tree, but he is one of those whose family here goes back to the 1500s.

Most of the "Hispanics" here in Albuquerque don't even speak Spanish!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: pdq
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:41 PM

This helps explain why people in the Southwest are concerned about illegals from Mexico and people from the Northeast are not.    (note: the open areas in Arizona and southern Utah are Indian reservations)

                         map

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:09 PM

Sir Cheney?

Sir Wolfowitz?

Sir Kissinger?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianvan
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:06 PM

"I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws."

That's simple. Don't make laws that you can't enforce. You have to wonder what is so difficult about fining the employers of illegal immigrants.

"Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness."

There are many other factors ripping at the foundation of educational services and multi-lingualism is not one of them. Most educated people can speak more than one language. It is enriching to be exposed to other languages and learn to respect the language and culture of others. Thats part of becoming educated.

"Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity."

Thats a cheap shot. How many incidents of genital mutilation do you know of? How about some data. Nobody I know favours this practice. Make a law to stop it if there isn't one already. Don't forget that many believe that male circumcision should also be stopped - and that's practiced world wide.

btw - Female circumcision is not practiced by all Muslims and seems to be confined to a few tribes in Africa. Do you really think the practice will spread to all corners of America?

Basically, you thrive on fear Anti-Im. Remember that ignorance leads to fear and fear leads to pain. Quite frankly, most people are not afraid of others. Have you ever been to see a psychiatrist about your paranoid delusions?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:53 PM

"Governor Lamm, walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast."

             Anti-Im - I always thought that Ross Perot did the country a great disservice when he prevented Richard Lamm from running as a third party candidate in 1996. If he'd had the nomination then, this whole discussion would have been taking place a decade earlier, and the problems wouldn't be nearly as great as they are now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:44 PM

What an unmitigated stream of rhetorical horse-patootie.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:23 PM

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits ~ make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century—that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and debate."

"Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant sympatric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them...."

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Every discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.'

American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America—take note of California and other states—to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength."

Governor Lamm, walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast.

http://www.vdare.com/collins/070626_lamm.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 07:20 PM

IT'S BACK!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:26 AM

"It occurred to the pundits that the bill is bad, alright, but they WANT that for America."


               It looks like the senators are getting cold feet. I think this bill is going to bite the dust again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:52 PM

That must be why the illegal immigrants have taken to starting wild fires on the border, to scare away the black helicopters and the people with tin-foil helmets.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:31 PM

Wow. Thanks for that link, Don Firth. I had no idea of how much knowledge I was lacking.

And it explains chemtrails too! "It has also been theorized that seed crystals have been sprayed from military and possibly civil aircraft in the form of so-called "chemtrails", which then enter the body of a host via the food and/or water supply or direct dermal contact."

No wonder there's so much fear in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:22 PM

And this is necessary for protection.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:15 PM

Just to clarify what GUEST,Anti - Im is talking about,

Clicky.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 12:55 PM

Riginslinger -- the "pundits" on television are in favor of the death of America. Most of them are members of the CFR, which is sworn to a world govt. The biggest impediment to a world govt now is the example of the Bill of Rights, the first 10 Amendments to the US Constitution. It's very rare in history for the citizens of a country to have true rights, and America has to be destroyed before a world government can be formed. Can't have pockets of freedom in the tyrannical new world. It occurred to the pundits that the bill is bad, alright, but they WANT that for America.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 12:11 PM

Anti-Im - I'm having as much trouble with this bill as you are. What was really frustrating was watching the pundits on television shaking their heads in disgust when it was announced about the death of the bill in the first place. It never seemed to occur to any of them that this bill going away might be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 01:17 PM

The Senate is at it again. The media tells you this bill is dead, then you read this:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flaimmig19nbjun19,0,1293895.story?coll=sfla-news-sfla

The story is such crap. A death-to-America bill peddled as friendly.

The truth is that the US govt will have 24 hours to say yes or no to an immigrant, at the end of which time the immigrant gets a social security card. The aggravated felons who've already sneaked into this country WILL BE PARDONED by this action. And so will the dozen people each new citizen is allowed to bring in. THIS BILL IS BEING USED AS A MAGNET TO DRAW THE MOST DEADLY PEOPLE ON THE PLANET TO AMERICA. Serial killers from Serbia, pedophiles from Kuwait, etc., etc., etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 08:59 AM

It has nothing to do with immigration on the border. It's the entire country that suffers environmentally, though the border is a small part of it. In fact, once you turn them into super-consumers, the entire world suffers.

                The Sierra Club was never in alignment with Tom Tancredo, but it did take issue with immigration until it became politically advantagous for the leadership not to.

                It still pays lip service to population growth, and human migration. It's just that, for political reasons, the leadership is trying to cut North America out of the equation. Still, a third of the membership is trying to get that changed.

                There is absolutely nothing racists about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:08 PM

Sorry, Ring--opposing immigration is a loser for anybody who's aware of the history of the US--environmentalist or not.

Are you aware of the US record-- during the 20's, for instance? It was "Orientals" then, it's "Mexicans" now. Same tired racism--either subtle or blunt. No wonder the Sierra Club is not lining up with giant intellects like Tancredo.

If you don't think the environment on the border is now being trashed by the illegal immigration going on, you need to read a bit more. The answer is not some imagined means of slamming the door, but more legal--and controlled-- immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 10:54 PM

Ron - I'm sorry, that was me. Apparently my gizmos needed to be reset, and I didn't notice.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:58 AM

Guest--get a handle. Then you may be worth talking to.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 10:29 PM

I posted a comment earlier that hasn't seemed to survive, but I'd like to respond to this.

"In fact who do you think both provides most support to environmental groups, and staffs them?"

          One of the most influential environmental groups in America is the Sierra Club. This organization is supported by people who have enough disposable income to make contributions. It is staffed, unfortunately, by a bunch of political opportunists who want nothing more than to bring public attention upon themselves.

          About one third of the Sierra Club's membership openly express concern about what runaway human migration is doing to the environment. The other two thirds are really more concerned about being seen as being politically correct than the environment itself.

          When the real environmentalists tried to make a move to change the direction of the club's policy, the political operatives went into high gear.

          Morris Dees got involved. And when it comes to making a political spectacle of oneself, Morris Dees puts Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson to shame.

          The facts of the matter, however are these: Sometime in the late 1960's the Sierra Club did mention immigration as a threat to the environment in their literature. Once the political operatives took the club over, they changed their tune, and now refuse to comment on immigration or human migration. The people controlling the club's funds want to spend that money promoting their own personal agendas. Two thirds of the membership are so chicken-shit they're afraid somebody might think ill of them, so they let the club's management do what they want, and turn a blind eye to the degragation of the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM

Hey Anti-Im--

"You support the war in Iraq". That shows how aware you are of Mudcatters' attitudes.

And you were going to tell us what kind of music you like. This is your last chance. If you don't do so, that clinches it for me. You will have proven to my satisfaction that you are nothing but one of the more mentally unstable trolls it's been our pleasure to host on Mudcat. And I will treat you as such. I hope the other posters will do the same--and you will then enjoy your soliloquy.

But please continue to oppose the bill--you're right, it's a bad bill as it stands--though not because of any of the imaginative fantasies you have concocted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:08 AM

What crap.

No one is well off in American society now. The dollar is falling at 2 cents per week, the govt has said it can disappear you at any time for any reason, torture and kill you, our jobs are evaporating, our industry fleeing, and on top of that our fraudulently elected "officials" are going to violate their oaths to protect us by dumping 30 million criminals onto the social services roles. And each one of those 30 million can bring a dozen family members into the country.

No one's safe in America, pal. Conservatives crossed over to vote for your liberal candidates, and you people have done nothing to hold those candidates accountable. You don't give a damn about life (you support abortions, you support the war in Iraq), so don't pretend you care about some cretin following the ant trail to the honey pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:30 PM

Funny that when the immigration laws were set up in a way that ignored the realities of the situation, no-one accused the administration of arbitrarily creating criminals.

This is not a matter of moral crime or even crimes against order or social well-being. The vast majority of people who arrive here are doing so in a desperate bid for freedom, and they work their buns off to prove worthy. I offer for consideration that most of those who wave their arms about criminal illegals are themselves well-established in American society, probably well-off or middle class, and mostly white. Thing is there are crimes and there are crimes. Some folks use the letter of the law to commit deeply immoral acts. Some folks will do the ethical thing as they see it, maintaining the spirit of the highest laws in the country, and ignoring the letter of the pettier rulings crafted by the bitter-brained politician.

It's an index of your personal level of humanity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:46 PM

Ring-

"Your proposals will destroy the planet". Uh, that's just a bit apocalyptic.

Au contraire. With education comes knowledge of the value of moderation.   Konsumidioten, in the felicitous German ,--(even better than "shopaholics")--are not the highly educated. In fact who do you think both provides most support to environmental groups, and staffs them?

Also not Konsumidioten.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:02 PM

Well, I think that pretty well establishes where GUEST,Anti - Im is coming from.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:26 AM

Yeah, this is no civil rights issue. It's a matter of law. Criminal law, not civil. Someone broke the law. The media plays it up as a great human struggle, the bleeding hearts buy it and want to kill their country to remedy the non-existent problem.

I have the day off so I'm going to chop cactus on my property. I don't need an illegal to do it either. No illegal would WANT to do the work I'm about to do today.

And you people are so eager to give my scrubland away to criminals. You have had the concept of nationalism burned out of your thinking. The concept of internationalism has replaced it. And you're so busy hopping on the train of internationalism that you don't see it's being driven by the ghosts of Mao and Stalin. You people are so easy to dupe.

So let's see, this carbon thing. Wild aliens crap in the woods and destroy "delicate ecosystems," therefore, according to Prince Albert Gore's enviro trade-off system, if I chop 1/2 acre or cactus and thereby destroy the evil carbon-breathing plants, I think I'm up by a carbon credit. But then I EXHALE a bunch more carbon than I normally would, so I'm down by two credits, right? And then there's the extra emission of methane on my part during all that, so how does this work? At the end of the day how much will I owe the United Nations for working on my own property? And if an illegal alien should happen by and demand his piece of the American Dream, do I have to give him cleared land or scrubland? There's been a bobcat on the place lately so I keep a rifle with me, so if I discharge a cartridge should I report that gas emission directly to Price Albert or just a local bureaucrat? I wish Hillery were already illegally installed in the White HOuse so she could simplify this process for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:43 AM

"There is just no use in trying to talk reason to a block of concrete."

                I think what might be going on here is, there are some people out there who want to view this as a "civil rights" issue. That's not what it is for a number of reasons.
                There are political activists who want to use what they perceive to be the "Hispanic Vote" to further their own political ends, and the concept of Latino immigrants as an American underclass works to their advantage.
                I don't think these people have America's interest on their agenda, and the country would be better off if they were just simply ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:25 PM

lol That's a great line, Don Firth.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:13 PM

Out! Out! I'm giving the whole world 24 hours to GET OUT!!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:12 PM

I grew up with Mexican kids. I'd rather live next to five of their families than one Anti - Im. He is the best example of (in his own words), "the worst of humanity."

Where did your family immigrate from Anti - Im?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:35 PM

Well, gol danged....

The only things worser than a nigga is a spic (spit)... They steal yer sh*t... No that's niggas... Okay, they won't work... No, that's them wops... Ahhhh, forgit it... Don't matter... (spit).... Wops, niggas, jews, spics, kinky headed hoes, honkies, hillbillies, rednecks, himmies... That's the problem... Plus the Cathlics... They are the big problem... Steal from ya and won't work (spit)... And the Poloks... Steal from ya, won't work and have bad breath... And camel jockies... Okay, these folks will steal from ya (spit), won't work and got bad breath, too...

And commies and socialists... All they wanta do is steal from ya 'cauase they is all Democrats and all niggas and spics (spit) is Dermocrats and Democrats will steal from ya, won't work and have bad breath... Plus they is lazy 'cause they been 'round them union folks who is all Irish and lazy, will steal from ya and have bad breath...

Oh yeah, what about these limies??? These folks weren't good 'nuff to be regular people... They is all theives... That's why they is limies...They are too lazy to steal from ya but if they could if they would just trt... But they sho nuff have the bad breath...

And the Piscopalians is just thieving Cathlics (spit)... Now we all know that Cathlics is stealin' theives and have bad breath so these folks will steal even from the Catholics and the spics... Now when you gotta staeal from Cathlics and spics thats bad as it gets... They all do it...

So, yeah, we gotta get rid of all these spics, Cathlics, Piscopalians, Poloks, niggas, towel heads (spit) Democrats, commie scoialists, limies and everything will be American again...

(spit)

A True American

p.s. And get rid of them indians, too... Ain't they seen the movies??? They lost so screw 'um... Send 'um back where they came from...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 06:04 PM

Well, Amos, there we have it yet again. There is just no use in trying to talk reason to a block of concrete.

(Sigh)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:07 PM

"'If someone breaks into my property for the purpose of trashing and looting, I would be hell-bent on restitution. But if they break in for the purpose of cleaning it--scrubbing the bathroom, mowing the lawn--then, in my way of thinking anyway, the debt goes in the other direction.'"

          That's got to be the stupidest quote I've seen in a long time. These people trash a lot more things than they clean up. And they wouldn't move a muscle to clean anything up if they weren't getting paid for it and putting American workers out of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:56 PM

What America Owes its 'Illegals'
Barbara Ehrenreich



Rush Limbaugh has been expecting liberals to start "whining" about the $5000 fine undocumented immigrants will have to pay to gain citizenship under the new immigration bill, but most liberals have been too busy chortling about the immigration-induced split in the GOP to make their own case against the bill. So let a mighty whine rise over the land: Undocumented workers shouldn't be fined; they should get a hefty bonus!

All right, they committed a "crime"--the international equivalent of breaking and entry. But breaking and entry is usually a prelude to a much worse crime, like robbery or rape. What have the immigrants been doing once they get into the US? Taking up time on the elliptical trainers in our health clubs? Getting ahead of us on the wait-lists for elite private nursery schools?

In case you don't know what immigrants do in this country, the Latinos have a word for it--trabajo. They've been mowing the lawns, cleaning the offices, hammering the nails and picking the tomatoes, not to mention all that dish-washing, diaper-changing, meat-packing and poultry-plucking.

The punitive rage directed at illegal immigrants grows out of a larger blindness to the manual labor that makes our lives possible: The touching belief, in the class occupied by Rush Limbaugh among many others, that offices clean themselves at night and salad greens spring straight from the soil onto one's plate.

Native-born workers share in this invisibility, but it's far worse in the case of immigrant workers, who are often, for all practical purposes, nameless. In the recent book There's No José Here: Following the Lives of Mexican Immigrants, Gabriel Thompson cites a construction company manager who says things like, "I've got to get myself a couple of Josés for this job if we're going to have that roof patched up by Saturday." Forget the Juans, Diegos, and Eduardos - they're all interchangeable "Josés."

Hence no doubt the ease with which some prominent immigrant-bashers forget their own personal reliance on immigrant labor, like Nevada's Governor Jim Gibbons, who, it turns out, once employed an undocumented nanny. And as the Boston Globe revealed late last year, Mitt Romney's lawn in suburban Boston was maintained by illegal immigrants from Guatemala.

The only question is how much we owe our undocumented immigrant workers. First, those who do not remain to enjoy the benefits of old age in America will have to be reimbursed for their contributions to Medicare and Social Security, and here I quote the website of the San Diego ACLU:

Undocumented immigrants annually pay an estimated $7 billion more than they take out into Social Security, and $1.5 billion more into Medicare.... A study by the National Academy of Sciences also found that tax payments generated by immigrants outweighed any costs associated with services used by immigrants.

Second, someone is going to have to calculate what is owed to "illegals" for wages withheld by unscrupulous employers: The homeowner who tells his or her domestic worker that the wage is actually several hundred dollars a month less than she had been promised, and that the homeowner will be "holding" it for her. Or the landscaping service that stiffs its undocumented workers for their labor. Who's the "illegal" here?

Third, there's the massive compensation owed to undocumented immigrants for preventable injuries on the job. In her book Suburban Sweatshops: The Fight for Immigrant Rights, Jennifer Gordon reports such gruesome cases as a Honduran who died from inhaling paint while sanding yachts in Long Island and a Guatemalan worker whose boss intentionally burned him with hot pans of oil for not washing dishes fast enough. "Death rates for Latino workers," Gordon reports, "have risen over the past decade even as workplace fatality rates for non-Latinos have fallen."

When our debt to America's undocumented workers is eventually tallied, I'm confident that it will be well in excess of the $5000 fine the immigration bill proposes. There is still the issue of the original "crime." If someone breaks into my property for the purpose of trashing and looting, I would be hell-bent on restitution. But if they break in for the purpose of cleaning it--scrubbing the bathroom, mowing the lawn--then, in my way of thinking anyway, the debt goes in the other direction. "
(From The Nation)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:07 PM

Anti-Im - I agree this legislation is bad for America, but what's in it for Bush, Kennedy and McCain (and now Jon Kyl)?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:59 PM

Fine. Split hairs, Mario. Refinements, minutae, etc., while the US congress is hell-bent to legalize 30 million criminals. They just got shot down, and normally it takes a while to get back to another attempt to defy the will of the people (the next session, say) but this group is waiting ONE MONTH to try their treason again. So split hairs all you want about what is is. That's what they want.

A legalization of so many criminals would wreck all social services in America. Such legislation is against the interests of Americans and treason to even propose. The politicians pushing this need to be removed from office, and you can't do it through the ballot box because they OWN the new voting machines. Hell of a fix.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: MMario
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 02:42 PM

What is incorrect in your last post? You say " a subsection that says the criminal illegal can claim no taxes are due"

wheras the subsection states the person must establish that no tax liability is due. A "claim" and "establishment" are very very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,Anti - Im
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 02:36 PM

I have read the bill artbrooks. I'm just trying to make it easy on you. What is incorrect in my last post? Nothing. The congress of the U.S. is trying to infest my country with the worst of humanity. I'm against it, you're for it. I accept your right, as an American, to be for it. I don't accept the likes of McCain, Kennedy and Bush being for the destruction of America. They swore to protect our interests. The proposed legislation is treason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: GUEST,AG
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM

Thanks, boobert.

Why not try posting PRIOR to 'smoking'. You might make more sense and you could do away your usual method of naming calling that you substitute for an apparent lack of knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:09 AM

You may wish to go to www.senate.gov and read the actual test of the Bill, with amendments.