young folk tradition undermining folk

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:38 AM

"I'm for holding the young ones back for as long as possible."

Oh! Why?

Do please tell us what it is you are worried about.

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:32 AM

I'm for holding the young ones back for as long as possible.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:15 AM

foklie dave ,Kate Rusby is a big star,SO WHAT,That doesnt mean there isnt room for improvement in her singing.

That's Right Cap'n. I am not the person to offer it and neither (IMHO) are you.

She has been well promoted,

You prefer she was badly promoted? You prefer she was not promoted at all? I think all singers would like to be well promoted.

She has acquired good technique[breath control,and good intonation],but as far as I am concerned she sings with complete lack of understanding of the storyline.
if she has listened to any of the singers I mentioned it doesn't show.

Well since I first wrote, it is my understanding from information received that she DID listen to traditional music as I would have expected - but surprisingly she listened to a wide range other stuff too. Why should it show? Wouldn't people then accuse her of being a ...whoever....imitator had it showed?

the point is good technique can be learned[on a degree course or from a teacher],

Well the person who teaches voice (to the student on the degree course I spent an hour talking to yesterday )is Chris Coe and the student in question thinks she is wonderful as a teacher. I reckon most people would agree with that.


Kate spent years honing her craft and no doubt others will do so as well. It ain't that important Dick - I would contend that Martin Carthy and indeed the Watersons have very little stage craft. Tow of the biggest influences on UK folk music.

And do keep up Dick, John Foreman, Roy Harris and Derek Brimstone are all retired.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 02:55 AM

"That's why there are tutors like Chris Coe"

And I believe Sandra Kerr and Vic Gammon all working Folkies before becoming involved at the Uni under discussion here.

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: oggie
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 02:19 AM

Well said Diane

Steve

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 01:52 AM

Any undergraduate course, let alone what goes on at The Sage, is not 'job training'. Students go and study what, ideally, they have a passion to research and develop. And these are skills they will use in whatever path they follow, whether directly related or not.

The Newcastle degree is not '10 steps to become a folk musician' nor is it a crash course in oral tradition. These are people who would be playing and singing anyway, and learning from song and tune carriers. But it just so happens that they have been fortunate enough to get a place on an academic (but performance-based) course, the content of which includes these activities along with modules such as business skills.

Every time this subject comes up (and it has with unfailing regularity over the past five or so years), I have posted links to this very syllabus and entry requirements, but do any of these ill-informed knockers ever read it? It's a bit like when Thames Valley University's Hotel & Catering Department ran a course on Indian cuisine and out came the remarks about curry degrees.

There's really nothing like the serious study of English trad music (on the lines that has been the norm in Ireland, Scotland, Sweden and Finland for decades) to bring out the 'good enough for f*lk' brigade'. It is a symptom of how the English have been, for a couple of generations, conditioned into despising and ridiculing their own cultural heritage. Hurrah for the dedicated tutors (working musicians of long experience themselves) who are encouraging more and more graduates to get out into their communities and reverse this, and to persuade others as well as themselves to respect, perform and add to it.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:54 PM

has anyone making profound pronouncements on this thread actually taken the time to look at the curriculum of the Newcastle course? There's a loty of I really hope they're studying the tradition..."

Answer: they are. That's why there are tutors like Chris Coe on the course: to give them some grounding in the sources for the music.

Many of the gainsayers could do worse than reading the article about the degree in a recent issue of English Dance and Song magazine, or at least finding out a wee bit more about the course, before issuing their dire pronouncements on the graduates of the degree.


I stand by my earlier post. Yopu lot are beginning to sound like the Four Yorkshiremen in the Monty Python sketch...

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: shepherdlass
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:02 PM

It's very laudable to take disappearing ways of life and turn them into songs (which the new radio ballads - featuring one Kate Rusby! - have also done) ... but is this tradition? I'd have thought learning the techniques and the repertoires of older musicans was more the way that younger performers become immersed in a tradition, something they then take forward by adapting it to their own tastes, times and audiences.

Documenting these traditions/patterns of living is something else, just as important and notable as performance, and obviously something that can inform and shape future performance - but is the documentary side of folk music absolutely fundamental to the tradition (maybe in border/war ballads or occupational songs? more debateable in supernatural tales?) or something that really came to the fore in the 1950s and 60s with MacColl et al?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 06:18 PM

how much of Ewan MacColl's output is still widely sung?


perhaps you should go to a folk club and submit a reseach paper on the subject.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: oggie
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:56 PM

Oral history is a different field from folk music. Writing songs based on oral history is not, in my opinion, adding to the tradition per se. Some songs may become (to the chagrin of their authors) "trad" (take a bow John Connolly), some may be good songs which are widely sung for a few years and then vanish (how much of Ewan MacColl's output is still widely sung?).

Remould Theatre did this type of work (The Northern Trawl et al) as across the country have done countless other Drama Groups. Writing songs or plays about history doesn't somehow validate the course or the people on it. I am not sure that the purpose of the course is to turn out people who can write songs about disappearing worlds, just as my degree (Economic History) didn't condemn me to a life of history.

Statistically very few students end up in jobs directly relevant to their degree although the skills they learn in doing their degree may well be important in their future career. For the students on the course (like most students) I suspect that the bottom line will be "do I get a job at the end of it?"

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:38 PM

er shepherdlass I think that is my point - they should indeed be doing that but also I believe they should be going into communities and listening to real people finding out about their disappearing and changing lifestyles contributing to the tradition, discovering writing music about real issues, real life. I am not digging at anyone-I have friends on the course, and I am sure learning from other musicians is enlightening -but the traditional musicians of the future for me would be the likes of Dave Evardson, who take the real stories turn them into wonderful songs that are a social commentary on the way that the fishing industry in Grimsby has changed over the last 30 years or so -if the course produces a dozen Dave's then its a job well done.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,FP
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:04 PM

WE totally agree!

The folk police.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:46 PM

well if you ask me, they're all bastards.

they have totally improper technique, and consequently they all stick the wrong finger in their ears...sometimes in the wrong ear. Bloody disgraceful!

And whats more they sing fol de diddle di day, when Cecil Sharp and Hammond were quite clear that fol de diddle rye day is not just a random load of crap sung sung by pissed up peasants but refers to matters of great great cultural significance. I mean one's a flattened fifth, and one's a minor accidental. Need I say more...?

Quite frankly, one's heart bleeds to think of our wonderful tradition entrusted to these ruffians and deliquents.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: shepherdlass
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:32 PM

Linda, I've seen some examples of both the students and tutors at the Newcastle degree course going out there with notebook and pen (well, more likely a minidisc recorder, but you get the drift) to interview and record the performances of traditional musicians. I don't know if all those on the course study context and community as thoroughly, but certainly those that I've met indicate that it's far more than a "technique factory". Hope this is reassuring. Incidentally, I'm not on the folk degree course, nor at Newcastle Uni, so have no axe to grind.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM

I don't know whether they do or not, Linda (referring to your last sentence). But I know that some of the youngstersb are indeed digging metaphorically, to find old material. They are probably less interested right now in documenting the present or recent past - somehow I feel that this is more of an interest to your generation and also to mine. Not sure why - perhaps it requires a few years of living experience to want to look to your immediate roots, close up as it were; while the more distant past fascinates more readily and is less contentious or politically/emotionally loaded with links to one's own experience.

But the interest in the past, recent or distant, is being established in the minds of these youngsters, and that's what's important. The seeds might take a few years to germinate in some; in others (like Jim Causley) they take hold immediately - some of the wording in Jim's sleevenotes for "Fruit of the Earth" give this away, I think his immediate family probably had the biggest impact on him though.

I don't want to get back into a definitions discussion; but any good music/song/dance/art has to have relevance, in my book. Not necessarily relevance to today, but to something that touches us, moves us, makes us feel or think, instinctive or conscious. If it doesn't, it simply does not succeed. Every kind of music that is listened to, does so because of that relevance. It's just that hip-hop relates to different things than traditional folk, whose relevance in turn differs from that of Dylan's songs or those of Johnny Cash. The youngsters coming out of the Newcastle course are looking for relevance to themselves too, and this might differ to ours. So it may be that some parts of the folk music we love may not have relevance to them any more - other than academic - ad they may be overlooked. THIS is where academia helps to preserve such temporarily "uninteresting" areas, until their turn comes again perhaps, in the cyclical way that interests and fads sometimes move.

Jaysus on a bike, but I've rambled...sorry.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 03:31 PM

I think it is a pity because I would like to think that traditional music is not just a snapshot in time to be studied in books and libraries, but experienced and added to by each generation. I am all for young musicians knowing the provinence of traditional music. But I would also like to think that there are people out their talking to actual people, learning and discovering communities and traditions before they disappear. It may be in my interpretation of tradition (I think we've been down this road!) differs from everyone else, but in 200 years time I don't want there to be a gap in our traditional music history -I want that generation to be able to hear songs about the decline of the farming, or the fishing in this century. I get letters sent to me all the time telling me stories and incidents which are totally fascinating, and invited to talk to people, harbour masters, Humber pilots, little old ladies in residential care who have amazing memories that they are desperate to capture-small stories amazing stories -all to make you cry or laugh and desperate to be made into a permanent memory in verse or song. We need young musicians to capture the here and now of our lives, before they are lost to us and all the generations to come. If the university courses sned out students into the community with notepad and pen so they can lay down traditions for the future -then bring it on-but I fear that they do not.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: mandotim
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM

I can remember my first, stumbling attempts at trying to communicate with an audience via a folk song. (Shudders delicately). I can also remember a number of older, much more experienced performers who took the time to criticise (usually constructively), suggest things, praise where appropriate, teach me, recommend me to others and generally encourage. I'm still not the performer I'd like to be, but I'm better than I would have been without their guidance.

As a result, I see my role now as enjoying the music of newer generations, helping where I can and where that help is sought or welcomed. An example; a lot of young musicians don't have a clue about how to set up a PA to produce a good sound, especially with acoustic instruments. I do; and I have a really good PA setup that I don't use all the time. I work with a number of young soloists and bands, usually for free or expenses. It's not altruism, though. I see it as indirectly repaying the debt I owe to my own benefactors, who played their part in 'keeping the river moving forward' (thanks for the image, George!).

I'm an academic these days, so I can't really attack the role of academia in society generally; but I would argue for balance. Folk music is not a theoretical pursuit in my view, and whilst study can produce knowledge and background, there is also a need for talent honed by performance and feedback from audiences. It's a bit like the recent move to train nurses in universities, rather than on the wards; a knowledgeable nurse is not necessarily a good nurse. That comes from the interaction with patients in the 'live' situation, and drawing on the experience of other staff. The study of folk music has it's place though; greater understanding of the material and its history must surely lead to more informed performance, at least in the long run.

Sorry for the long post; I still haven't managed to say everything I wanted to.
Tim

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: stallion
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:35 AM

Giok I don't think Dianne has abrasive in her underwear as you suggest the posts aren't always vitriolic, it's more an allergic reaction to some keywords.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:27 AM

The future of folk music relies on many things. The dwindling folk club scene has its role, and so do the festivals. And the open mike cafes, and the centres of excellence, and the arts centres, and parents singing songs to their kids, and the existence of the EFDSS and the V.Williams library, and C# House. I feel no need to single out the "most important" factor in ensuring a future for folk music because a) I don't know it and b) I am pretty certain that no single factor can ever be sufficient. Folk music is/should be pervasive, turning up at all sort of moments in one's life and all sorts of place - hence, many avenues required for it to travel freely.

In a flowing river, the water molecules go this way and that, individually; some hit obstacles, some backtrack, some never make it to the sea. But the river moves forward. And so does folk music, I believe.

(PS: Ruth, regarding the raised hand: I knew it, I was behind the one-way mirror!)

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:26 AM

In my humble opinion NO-ONE is undermining folk music, it's not possible, this is why it has endured for so long. [ and continues to do so ]


The mere fact that young people are actually studying folk music etc. can only be regarded as a good thing, when and if they start performing professionally, they will learn, and pay their dues.

Lets have more.

eric

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:18 AM

It's a pity the future of folk music relies so much on academia

Does it?
And if it does, why not?
As somebody said, the only harm you can do to a trad piece is not to re-arrange it.
And, I'd add, not be aware of its origins and of the provenance and cultural background of the song and tune carriers.
'Tradition' does not equate with ignorance and studied lack of awareness.
That's coming dangerously close to 'good enough for f*lk'.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:14 AM

Diane, I love some of your posts, but sometimes wonder if your knickers are sandpaper lined. You do go in for the odd abrasive remark don't you?

Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:05 AM

"It's a pity the future of folk music relies so much on academia though - kind of throws the face of the tradition."

Why?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:03 AM

Surely all students (in my experience) think that the older generation have neither seen the things they have seen-or done the things they are doing -I wouldn't single out Newcastle students partcularly. The ones I have encountered are bright young things, lively and talented. I have never however, singled them out as being more or less talented than others. Some young musicians do lack presence and personality, but you get that with experience and those words my mother said to me and I say to my granddaughters come to mind 'When your older.....'. It's a pity the future of folk music relies so much on academia though - kind of throws the face of the tradition. I think we have to accept that things move on -festivals are the thing and many do do their apprenticeship, just not in the folk clubs.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:52 AM

Ruth - £400 for a trio is a fair fee , with the distance travelled taken into sonsideration , its a VERY fair fee to charge ! However £1200 for a group to travel fifty miles to a club (as WE were quoted a little while back) is a little greedy !

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: oggie
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:51 AM

Arrogance is not the sole preserve of the young neither is ability the sole preserve of their elders.

Why do performers need to pay their dues in the same way as people before them? Times move on, there aren't the Clubs there used to be which offered a (hard) living, if someone will book them for an Arts Centre good luck to both parties. Having a 40 year career as a professional folk musician may no longer be viable (if it ever was for all but a few), Kate Rusby may well be the career model for one type of new performer. Pete Coe, with his mix of work and interests may be another.

It will be interesting to see down the road the mix that Northumbria turns out. My own guess is that there will be a very few musicians who have a lengthy career, a few who do it for a few years and end up taking paid employment and some who do nothing, rather like music courses (of all genres) have been doing for years.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: stallion
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:37 AM

George and Mike, I take the point but who is thrusting them into the limelight? Why don't they graduate and then build a reputation for themselves, when was the last time a "Starred First" was given the Chair of a faculty upon graduation? Perhaps they are being driven before they have been broken to the harness. perhaps they ought to be Mentored by an old hand, like training plough horses. OK, so I had a bad experience with an arrogant oik, I shall put that behind me and try to look through the mists of youth, after all, someone has to make allowances it may as well be me.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:32 AM

*raises hand*

"Performers need to pay their dues, and not expect to be treated as 'special' because they've done a course, however good it may have been."

I have to say, I haven't encountered that attitude amongst the Newcastle students. But I have noticed that a lot of the older generation of folkies are rather chippy about the whole concept of the degree. There seems to be an attitiude that the degree is "anti-folk" in some way, and a bit of the "Eeeeh, when I were a lad we didn't need no degrees. We played the circuit, took our knocks, learned the hard way..."

And if anything, I think some of the students from the degree course actually have a tougher time gaining acceptance, as a load of old folkies with their arms crossed, sucking their gums, stand in front of them thinking "Okay, let's see why you're so bloody great then. Let's see what you learned on this so-called folk degree..." The expectations of them are higher, and there are some people I've met who are actually quite smug if kids from the degree trip up, or have a bad night, or don't set the world on fire with their between-song patter.

I certainly think that the degree should be scrutinised - there's nothing wrong with healthy criticism, and if constructive it can only help the degree to get better all the time. But as far as "needing" a folk degree...well, lots of great young performers are getting on very well without it, others are benefitting hugely. Horses for courses.

Is the degree a Good Thing? Is it anti-folk? Well, lots of countries who take their folk music far more seriously than England does - the Scandinavian countries, for instance - have incorporated folk music into university study for years. It stands alongside classical music in terms of status. That can't be a bad thing.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: stallion
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:26 AM

I have no problem with a centre of excellence as long as they don't fill the students heads with the idea that they are God's gift to folk music and there place is on a pedestal. In every occupation and calling respect and reputations are earned and a good reputation takes a lot of hard work a bad one a damn site less. Some of the graduates, not all, seem to be completely detached from their audience, so in the past the old salts earned their following so it amazes me that some of the grads. have such high profiles, is it PR or am I just out of kelter with everyone else in not being that impressed?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:17 AM

Seems to me that the Sidmouth errors could have been on either side.

Was it one of the Folk scene standard songs Thousands or More, Wedding Song or any of thousands of other songs. If so the oncoming group should have swapped it for a reserve song or at least apologised somehow even saying something like "We hope you like our version of the song just sung by..... " would have been better.

However if the song was one the act have recorded or are known for then the floor singer should have known that the act were to follow and sung another song.

If we are to lay blame at either door we need the full facts but again I don't think this is the place to name names and one upsetting incident should not blind us to all the good stuff that is out there.

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:07 AM

Another point in defense of young folkies wanting to go straight to the top and play arts centres etc etc. I don't think this is at all to do with having gained a qualification - rather, it's a result of today's "get famous quick" and celebrity culture, exemplified by the multitude of so-called talent and "reality" (not) shows.

Will those who remember singing into a hairbrush in front of the mirror raise their hand, please...

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:01 AM

Mike of Northumbria, you put your finger on an important issue with your last paragraph. Excellent point, and one we'd all do well to remember.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 06:58 AM

I don't know, Diane, in principle I agree but all floor singers don't know the repertoire of all "named acts", especially one that is presumably a comparatively new trio. But to repeat a song just sung by anyone is definitely bad manners, even if it is your own.

At the same time, Songthrush, and though it's hard to judge as I wasn't there, I'd generally cut the youngsters some slack in terms of behaviour. They are young, and carry some of the baggage of youth (enthusiasm being some of it, high spirits too, often peppered with an as yet undeveloped ability to put oneself in other people's shoes); I made quite a few behavioural "faux pas" in my younger days (and not only then!), and learned on the way. Call it part of the learning process.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 06:53 AM

The above was addressed at 'Songthrush' of whom the line:

if I had an arrow in my hand
And a bow bent on a string

springs to mind.

Such spiteful jealousy towards students going through great hardship to study what they love is entirely unwarranted.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 06:47 AM

It seems to me, on the contrary, extremely odd that a 'floor singer' taking part in a session to which a named act had been invited, chose to do a song that said act was known to have as part of their repertoire.

Normal polite behaviour would have been to have checked first if the act (whether from the Newcastle course or not, provenence is not important) intended to do that particular song and if so, to do something else.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 06:43 AM

Hi Stacey,

More alert posters have already said most of what I would have written in response to your initial observations. However, here are a few words of encouragement for you - and any others of your generation who are following this thread.

"The crime of being a young man, which the honourable gentleman has, with such spirit and decency, charged upon me, I shall neither attempt to palliate nor deny; but content myself with wishing that I may be one of those whose follies may cease with their youth, and not of that number who are ignorant in spite of experience." (William Pitt, 1741).

Anyone from my generation (the bus-pass generation, that is) who looks back honestly on the follies – musical or otherwise – or their own youth has probably got quite a lot to feel embarrassed about.   But making mistakes and being embarrassed by them is an essential part of the learning process. No pain, no gain.

Unfortunately, the fast-tracked young whiz-kids of the Folk Nouveau scene are doing their learning under a spotlight. Some of them may be irritatingly bratty at times – but weren't we somewhat similar when we were their age? Those of us who were able to make our juvenile mistakes in relative obscurity should show a little more patience and tolerance to today's young hopefuls.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Songthrush
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 06:37 AM

I was appalled by the behaviour of a group of students from Newcastle during a folk club session at Sidmouth last year, this particular threesome were booked to do two spots during the evening, they arrived in the company of a very "big" name half way through the first half and made as they say an entrance. They listened to some of the floor singers (well they were in the same room so I assume they were listening ) and then they were called upon to do their spot, which although not entirely to my taste was adequate, they then committed a cardinal sin of singing a song that the last floor singer had sung. I must admit I left after the first half . If there is anyone here who teaches on the Newcastle course can I recommend that they teach good etiquette and respect for other performers because without that they may be brilliant but they will succeed in alienating much of their audience.

Viv, who is not a performer

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:51 AM

'McMullen' makes some good points.

Performers need to pay their dues, and not expect to be treated as 'special' because they've done a course, however good it may have been. If it turns into a 'fast track' to Arts Council type fees, then it will certainly lead to resentment, and perhaps also an over-inflated sense of personal importance. I'm quite sure that the people who run the Newcastle course (all of whom, so far as I know, came up the hard way) would be very uncomfortable if their protegés were to behave in the arrogant fashion described by 'stallion'.

Who exactly was that person? I think we should be told (provided, of course, that the reference is accurate). I've noticed that people usually only start listing their degrees when they have been challenged on something and can't provide an adequate answer.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:37 AM

foklie dave ,Kate Rusby is a big star,SO WHAT,That doesnt mean there isnt room for improvement in her singing.
She has been well promoted,She has acquired good technique[breath control,and good intonation],but as far as I am concerned she sings with complete lack of understanding of the storyline.
if she has listened to any of the singers I mentioned it doesnt show.
the point is good technique can be learned[on a degree course or from a teacher],but singing from the heart is something youve either got or havent,and learning stage craft,is best done by going out at folk clubs and festivals[observing people like HughieJones, Brimstone ,JohnForeman,RoyHarris]and then doing it,in other words,Practical experience.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Uncle Boko
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:27 AM

"As for the YFA, any fule kno that Smoothops/MH are a load of wankers"

I love it!!

I'll report on the Blackmore's Night gig tomorrow, but I won't be allowed to tape it because it says so!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:16 AM

I heard a couple of the 'Newcastle Prodigies' the other night and, in spite of my rather low expectations, it was a good evening - excellent choice of songs, very professionally presented. There was even one of those 'spine-tingling moments' which are increasingly rare these days.

But (there had to be a 'but' - didn't there?), apart form the 's-t m' mentioned above, there was a certain bloodlessness about the evening - as though the performers were relying on their (undoubted) virtuosity. It was almost as if they were saying to the audience, "we're displaying our virtuosity - what more do you want?"

Well, actually I want passion and daring - a sort of 'tight-rope walking over Niagra Falls' scary quality; and if you can give me one 's-t m' I want more!

Interestingly, the 's-t m' came when one of the performers sang on her own (for most of the night they had performed as a duo). Please remember that the classic performances of British trad. song have usually involved a single, unaccompanied singer. Personally, I think that the 'band' phenomenon is partly responsible for the bloodlessness - everyone wants to be in a f..king band these days - but in a band it's easy to hide behind the other performers and never really give of yourself.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:09 AM

"take the plank out of your own eye before telling others about splinters in theirs."

Biblical references yet!

Matthew 7:5 I believe - well thats the original which is almost the same .

Point is perhaps we should all think along those lines.

This is not the God Slot it's the philosophical point made in that phrase.

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:59 AM

Dave: is Sam doing the Newcastle degree then? Last time I talked to his dad I thought he'd decided against it. Something about a conversation with Chris Wood...

"It seems to me that a lot of these VERY talented youngsters get to the 'Specialist' Folk Universities and hone their technique to perfection , then when they finish they dont want to work small venues , but only Art Centres and Festivals , who can afford to pay 'Silly' Money !"

I like taking young bands for my venue. I recently took a 3-piece who had all done the Newcastle course, for the princely sum of £400. They got some more for doing a school workshop (something many of the Newcastle students are keen on and good at), and I sorted out some accomodation the night before because they had to be at the school at 11 am. They chose to drive back up to Newcastle after the gig.

If £400 for a 3 piece band that has travelled 4 or 5 hours each way to do your gig is "silly money", I guess I'm guilty as charged. But I'd have been frankly embarrassed to pay them any less.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: concertina ceol
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:58 AM

inverted snobbery? havn't got the talent to get there yourself?

aimed at Stacey

why can't this forum software be updated to something useful!

Have seen and enjoyed TDI, Crosscurrent, Damon O'Kane and Shona Kipling, and the Witches none of whom fit the box that Stacey wanted to put them in.

I know one person on the course quite well, he plays in sessions, for morris, and folk clubs and also does not match the mini superstar ego described.

I still can not believe the first post. A great deal of people going on the Newcastle course go as mature students and they have years of experience and grounding in the folk tradition. Just because it is not the route you have chosen doesn't make it fake or less valid than the route you have chosen.

Good luck with your journey Stacey - but take the plank out of your own eye before telling others about splinters in theirs.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:26 AM

"Brian Peters: you know very well what type of club I'm talking about."

Yes, Diane, I do, although we might disagree about the proportion. I also realise that my own attitude to changing and tuning facilities is a product of low expectations and might not be shared by everyone. Nonetheless, on the accommodation issue, I repeat that this is almost always offered by folk clubs as part of the deal, and is usually more than acceptable. And that if club fees didn't cover fuel costs they wouldn't get even semi-pro guests to turn out.

But this is off topic. And of course I endorse your praise of TDI.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: mandotim
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:12 AM

Just for the record; I've heard Stacey in a folk club. Mansfield Folk Club, at the Brown Cow, I think? (Correct me if I'm wrong, Stacey.) He's a highly original, thoughtful performer with a balance of older songs and some very good ones of his own. For me, he is the very antithesis of the 'modern' young folk artiste. Quietly funny, able to engage an audience at several levels with either song or chat, and a damn fine musician to boot. Also very young and good looking. I hate the bastard.

My real point is; talent will find a way to express itself, and perhaps the best thing to do at the early stage is to try lots of different avenues for performance. Folk clubs are just one; others include sessions, festivals, 'open mike' events, house concerts, support slots for established artists and showcase events. Try them all, and don't worry about the odd 'bad fit' between what you do and the nature of the event. Even bad gigs help a performer to learn the business, and those artists who really sustain a career seem to have learned those lessons well; and are still learning.

Good debate Stacey, thanks for opening this up.
Tim (the old geezer with the wierd red mandolin!)

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:11 AM

I mentioned Kate Rusby earlier,the song was I courted A Sailor.Kate Rusby HAS Potential,unfortunately all the while she is being overhyped,she runs the danger of believing her publicity.,she will not improve, until she exercises some musical self criticism.
A good starting point for her might be to listen to early Anne Briggs,MaddyPrior or better still Jeannie Robertson[now there was a really good interpreter of a story,someone that could always bring a song to life].

You may not have noticed Cap'n but Kate Rusby is a BIG star.

Whether you like her or not is irrelevant and since her career has been extremely successful in terms of headlining big folk festivals she has been a great success. In money terms, record and video sales she is a massive success and I bet if she never worked again she would probably be able to have a very comfortable life.

That is her choice and nothing to do with you and I, you don't have to buy her records or go to festivals where she is appearing (unless you are booked yourself of course).

Now purely as a matter of interest - how do you know she didn't listen to those singers you mention? She comes from a folk family.

The folk music scene is far bigger than it ever was, and my belief if that if you are any good you will "make it".

Knocking the Folk Degree (hardly a route to stardom - one of my friends who did it is working in the kitchens at the Iona Community - (!)) does not respect those who did it, and are doing it. And any of them who think it is a road to stardom will I suspect become very disillusioned.

There have been - at a guess - 60/80 students who have graduated so far - can anyone name more than ten?

Can I suggest that Stacy reads Jacey Bedford's advice on how to get gigs on folkwise? And good luck Stacey - plough your own furrow and don't take any notice of old farts like me.

And now - off to Handley Village Festival to watch some young artists like the Askew Sisters and Kerfuffle - none of whom did the folk degree. Although Hannah James is just finishing her first year and Sam Sweeney- now he is old enough - starts in September.

But there again it is Mudcat - don't let the facts spoil a good story.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 03:56 AM

Yes Diane

I worked that one out (all by myself)

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 03:47 AM

Wot I was thinking (but not writing) was TDI (The Devil's Interval) not the Department of Trade & Industry (which might have a Morris team to match that of The Lord Chancellor's Department . . . maybe).

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 03:42 AM

"Jim Causley (+ Emily Portman & Lauren McCormick), collectively DTI, are some of the Best Things to come out of it so far,"

Don't know if it's wot you were thinking of Diane but I said something very much like that in the other thread.

To restate my case.

I think that the younger generation who take the Tradition(s) forward (perhaps using modern instruments and styles)are to be commended for keeping it alive. I happen to like Spiers and Boden, Bellowhead, Devil's Interval and the Witches of E. They contribute things in a different way from my fellow club singers and I but I don't see that as a bad thing. Just not the way I do it.

Oh and the clubs in my area do book the likes of the above from time to time and so do the Art Centres and Concert Hall/Theatre type venues.

So I don't think it is a matter of "undermining" more a matter of building on it.

We older peeps won't be here for ever and we need the youngsters for the future.

Dave