Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?

Subject: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:58 PM

why?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:59 PM

Events dear boy, events

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:12 PM

I doubt they have the same reasons. I know that some more traditional cultures, which the world is still full of, don't necessarily hate us but see us, rightly I would say, as degenerate, with drugs, teen pregnancies, STDs and AIDs crippling and killing populations and they don't want to go down that path, which they most likely will if they adopt too many of our practices aka freedoms. Young people out of control, wasted on meth, often violent, often in jail. As I have said before, they do not want little Fatma or Kim Su Yung to follow in the footsteps of our teen idols such as Brittney, Paris etc. They probably don't want filth like South Park broadcast into their homes or listen to rap lyrics full of abuse and violence. The tyrants of course don't want to lose power and financial benefits to themselves. The politically enthusiastic don't want to lose systems they have fought and died to defend and/or set up. Some of course don't want to exchange guaranteed life support (and I would probably be one of them) for the risk inherent in a different system. But I think the moral degeneration is a huge factor and one that is not discussed enough. To say they "hate us because we are free" is not sufficient. To say they hate us because we are arrogant is not sufficient. To say they hate us because we seem to hate ourselves and why not jump on the bandwagon is not sufficient but it is a factor. There is of course economic jealousy of us and those who have made it here and I bet whole big bunches of those who "hate" us would certainly like to be here nevertheless. It is complex of course. mg

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:19 PM

The school yard is full of kids that hate the bug bully.

Barry

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 05:21 PM

Countries don't hate countries; people hate people and governments, for whatever reason seems best to them.

There are two very different countries on the Korean Peninsula; many of the people in North Korea hate Americans, although very few have ever met one, because that is the way their government has taught them to think over the past 55 years. On the other hand, few of those in South Korea (and I have personally met many) hate Americans, because they have had close contacts with Americans over the past 55 years and their nation is a close trading partner of ours. Some don't care much for the current government of the US, but that is equally true of many citizens of the US.

Much the same is true of Iraqis; individuals don't necessarily hate individuals but, as a group, they hate what the US has done, and is doing, in their country. They notice the reconstruction, of course, but realize that it is largely a result of the destruction of the past few years - and the fact that much of it was not done by the American (or allied) military in the first place, but rather by people fighting the Americans, is largely irrelevant to them. Jihadies are a different case, of course, but they tend to hate all "Crusaders", Americans only slightly more than others.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:43 PM

fydtswdchgfdrtyguihojpkwzerxtcygu

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 10:09 PM

Come on, man. You have to ask why those countries would get a wee bit ticked off at the USA??? Get real. ;-D

You been living under a stone for the last few decades or what?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 10:18 PM

I DID!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: The Walrus
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 10:26 PM

One problem is the "Teddy Roosevelt" syndrome.

TR said "Talk softly and carry a big stick"

To put it in 'cartoon terms'

The USA 'know' that they mean well.

America's allies can hear the soothing words and feel they can trust the US.

Some friendly states can't hear but hope the US can be trusted

But some states are further out and just see a muttering giant with a club.

As I say, just a cartoon like example, but it may help.

As for why there are hostile relations between any two states? As has been said - events and the perceived view of a society.

W

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 12:17 AM

The proposition, as artbrooks mentioned, is flawed in the asking. Individuals hate; groups like nations do not. When media, or noise and brouhaha create enough Fear Uncertainty and Doubt to make it appear that a whole group shares a hatred it is time to start talking to individuals; they are the only ones who can properly own an emotion or an attitude, and generally you will find most of them much more rational than any cloud of black-PR smoke will ever seem to be.


A

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 01:56 PM

DELETE

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:40 PM

You have to ask yourself a few crucial questions, cookster, like...

"Why did I get up this morning?"

"Who am I?"

"What's it all for?"

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:44 PM

US hegenomy is no secret. It is a systemic problem with the development of our country starting from the displacement of Native Americans through African American slavery not to mention the brutality of the Mexican American war.

I don't think that Iraqis or Koreans hate the American people. In many ways, they would like our material advantages. Jazz, rock, R and B, Rap and folk music are exportable ambassadors for American culture. Unfortunately, many Americans are ignorant of Iraqi or Korean cultures. It's an ignorant one-way street.

The people in power in the US have no regard for other cultures. They see them as money-making machinery to satiate their greed. The rest of the world knows this and rejects this provinciality. It appears as hatred but if you dig deeper you will find that it's the behavior of the ruling-class America that incites reaction, not that of all the American people.

Also, religious zealotry and intolerance are at the basis of much of the conflict...as usual.

Frank

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 01:17 PM

Rent the movie "Network" and watch it. It was made in the 70's. It's about how television has slowly but surely in the last 60 years turned American society into a sick joke. Everything you could really want to know about why the world has begun to see America as an insane and dangerous monster can be grasped if you simply watch that movie through and think about the implications of what it's showing you...

And you know what? I hear it's even worse in Japan. TV is like air there. It's omnipresent. They have huge TV screens on the side of buildings and TVs in their trains and buses. Japan is not well liked by its neighbours either.

You take a nation of Americans, people who once had the patience and the grace to read books, plough fields, raise horses, write handwritten letters to each other, and engage in real physical daily life...and you plunk them down in front of a babbling TV for 4 or 5 hours every day of their life, bombard them with ceaseless inane advertising, and feed them potato chips and Coca-Cola...and, my friend, you are headed for something so collosally stupid, wasteful, and ugly that it simply has to be witnessed to be believed....and it has to be witnessed by someone who is capable of standing outside it and looking at it objectively, from an independent point of observation.

Unfortunately, when people are born right into the middle of it, they hardly even notice what's going on. They don't know any better, because it's all they've ever known. Thus are the young people trapped in the quicksand of the TV age, and swallowed up by what they take for granted.

This present age will not be remembered too kindly by whatever follows in its wake, in my opinion. We are living in something akin to the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, the latter days.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: pirandello
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

People have long memories; especially in Korea's case. America was, and is, perceived as an Imperialist aggressor. America's invasion of North Korea and the subsequent defeat of hers and Allied forces by the Red Army of China which came to the aid of the Koreans is still remembered.
America tried to fight an idealogical war and failed dismally. The same happened in Vietnam and the same thing is happening in the Middle East.
Isn't it about time America got the idea that losing wars isn't a great idea?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 12:35 PM

Cookster, you might as well ask why the Gauls, Hispanic peoples, Britons, Germanic tribes, Jews, Egyptians, Numidians, Greeks, Helvetii, Belgii, and all those other tribes back then hated Rome....

Same basic reason.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 02:33 PM

pirandello - 26 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

"People have long memories; especially in Korea's case. America was, and is, perceived as an Imperialist aggressor. America's invasion of North Korea and the subsequent defeat of hers and Allied forces by the Red Army of China which came to the aid of the Koreans is still remembered."

Now that has got to be the most twisted take on the Korean War that I have ever read.

From Wikipedia:
The Korean War began as a civil war fought from 1950–1953 on the Korean Peninsula, which had been divided by the post-World War II Soviet and American occupation zones. The civil war began on June 25, 1950, when North Korea attacked South Korea. The civil war was greatly expanded when the United States, and later China entered the conflict. The conflict ended when a cease-fire was reached on July 27, 1953.

The principal support on the side of the North was China, with limited assistance by Soviet combat advisors, military pilots, and weapons. South Korea was supported by United Nations (U.N.) forces, primarily from the United States, although many other nations also contributed personnel. When the conflict began, North and South Korea existed as provisional governments competing for control over the Korean peninsula after the Division of Korea by the United States and the Soviet Union.

Points of Note:
1) The aggressor was North Korea - documented fact
2) Defence of South Korea was undertaken by a United Nations Force of which the US provided the major part - documented fact.
3) The "Red Army of China" played no part in the conflict, no such force existed. It certainly did not defeat anybody - documented fact.
4) The Chinese force that took part in the conflict was the Chinese People's Volunteer Army, not the Chinese People's Liberation Army - documented fact.
5) I would be prepared to wager quite a sum that the people of North Korea now look at their brothers in the South and dearly wish that the Chinese had stayed at home - personal observation.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Leadbelly
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:04 PM

"Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?"

Do you really wanna be loved by these countries? And are you resp. your government are willing to love these countries?

After all, what do you expect? Think of your president.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:47 PM

Hatred arises out of fear. Clearly, those countries as well as many others are afraid of America. Ask yourself why.

Without any fear, you do not have hatred. You may have other negative emotions, such as contempt, etc, but you will not have hatred unless it has arisen out of a significant level of fear.

That, for instance, is why most North American Indians hated the white Americans in the 1800s...and it's also why the white Americans hated the Indians. Mutual fear, due to conflicting interests.

There are conflicting interests causing fear between America and much of the rest of the world. Those interests are primarily matters of economic competition and competition for scarce resources and markets.

And thus it has ever been. The Romans and Carthaginians hated each other for the very same reasons.

That's why I consider mutual cooperation to be a better idea than competition. I always did.

Example: I found that I enjoyed playing table tennis a lot more if me and the other person didn't keep score...but just played for the fun of it. It was way more fun. It also led to more interesting play, because one wasn't worried about losing a point by trying a specially risky shot. It was better in every way. I discovered that I would much rather play for the sheer joy of playing than for the brief and pointless joy of "winning" (at the cost of making somebody else "lose"). I like winning, but I don't like to make someone else lose, so it's a conflicted situation.

Some people just can't relate to that at all. They only care about winning. I had a friend, Larry, an excellent player, and he simply couldn't bear to play without keeping score, because then he couldn't tell if he was "winning" or not, and winning was everything to him.

The Romans and Carthaginians could have decided to trade with each other in a friendly fashion, share in their knowledge, and co-exist as brothers. Both could have prospered. Entire cities of innocent people could have been spared from annihilation. They lacked the imagination to make such an arrangement.

I'm sorry to say that national leaders today also appear to lack the imagination to make such an arrangement. They're still playing to "win"...which means that somebody else must lose.

It's a shortsighted and destructive attitude. Today's winner will not necessarily win tomorrow...and even if he does, other people must suffer and die to secure his win...and their descendants will probably seek vengeance upon his descendants...or on someone else entirely.

You see, if you keep kicking the dog, then the dog will eventually get nasty and bite someone. Maybe not you. Maybe someone else. The person the dog bites will get upset and probably dump it on someone else. And so it goes....

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 05:10 PM

When Truman's sec. of State,Dean Acheson, stated that there was nothing in Korea that was of interest to us, the North invaded the south.
When Bush's ambassador to Iraq said we don't care what they do in the middle east, Saddam Hussein took that as a green light to take BACK Kuwait.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM

And apparently somebody in Thatcher's govt said something that led the Argentine junta to think that they could take the Falklands without any resistance ...

I think there's a lesson in here somewhere. Something to do with wishful thinking ...

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 06:12 PM

The Korean troubles go way back. Japan had wars with Korea in their medieval times. Japan later conquered and occupied Korea under a brutal colonial regime, then went on to invade China and fight a border war with Russia. So the Koreans, a single nation, were under the heel of Japan for a sustained period. Following Japan's defeat in 1945, the USA and Russia basically starting playing their own imperial games in the Korean peninsula. That resulted in Korea being divided into 2 sections with totally conflicting agendas, which was bound to lead to war.

To say that this was unfortunate for the Koreans is to understate it! It was not in their interests to be used as pawns of Japan or Russia or the USA.

Countries which are artifically divided by competing empires usually end up trying to reunite themselves...either peacefully, as Germany eventually did when the Cold War ended....or through war...as has happened in Korea and Vietnam.

In the case of Vietnam the war ended in a victory for the North, and the country was reunited. In the case of Korea the war ended in a stalemate, and the country remains divided...and still in danger of further warfare at any time.

Think what would happen if two foreign powers forcibly partitioned and divided the USA, and started arming both sections of it against one another. Do you think it would not lead to future warfare in what is now the USA?

All the history has to be taken into account when looking at Korea, not just the history since 1950.

It is a great shame that the victors of WWII saw fit to artificially divide Korea, a single nation, and fight each other indirectly across its battered body. Perhaps Japanese, Russians, and Americans should all admit their own complicity in what has happened in Korea.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 09:01 PM

Good heavens Little Hawk you do spout some complete and utter bollocks at times!! Your latest contributions in this thread defy description.

Now let's take a look at few examples:

"Hatred arises out of fear. Clearly, those countries as well as many others are afraid of America. Ask yourself why."

Yes Little Hawk I'll ask myself why. In actual fact most countries do not fear America. In actual fact most countries rely on America for their defence and well being. When you are talking about countries are you talking about the population of those countries or the governments of those countries?

"Without any fear, you do not have hatred. You may have other negative emotions, such as contempt, etc, but you will not have hatred unless it has arisen out of a significant level of fear."

You do not mention jealousy? You do not mention that the "evil" influences eminating from America actually liberate the individual according to some doctrines and that, of course must never be allowed to happen - why? - because the unelected mullahs and immams then lose control. Imagine a world in which the renaissance or reformation never happened? Imagine the fear and ignorance we would have been condemned to live in!

"There are conflicting interests causing fear between America and much of the rest of the world. Those interests are primarily matters of economic competition and competition for scarce resources and markets."

Here Little Hawk you are viewing things from one perspective and one that defies history, particularly history that promotes the betterment of mankind. The conflicting interests at present are between those who promote democracy/free will/self-enlightenment against constrained religious freedom and strict adherence to Sharia Law. Now I don't know about you Little Hawk but I certainly know under which regime I would rather live. Maybe you would argue that that desire must not be "imposed" on others - Only thing is that if you take a good look at where illegal immigrants are heading for it is not towards the middle-east or to countries advocating the universal benefits of Sharia Law - does that tell you anything at all Little Hawk?

"That's why I consider mutual cooperation to be a better idea than competition. I always did."

Lovely concept, let's see what it looks like in practice. Please point out to me which stance is incorrect:

Hamas/Hezbollah avowed aim clearly stated in their charters is the destruction of Israel, the erradication of the Jewish people and wiping the stain of the Jewish State from Arab lands.

Recognise our right of peaceful co-existence and there will be peace.

OK Little Hawk, which of those parties appear willing and totally committed to following your advice - Hamas/Hezbollah or Israel?

"Example: I found that I enjoyed playing table tennis a lot more if me and the other person didn't keep score...but just played for the fun of it. It was way more fun. It also led to more interesting play, because one wasn't worried about losing a point by trying a specially risky shot. It was better in every way. I discovered that I would much rather play for the sheer joy of playing than for the brief and pointless joy of "winning" (at the cost of making somebody else "lose"). I like winning, but I don't like to make someone else lose, so it's a conflicted situation."

Please tell me, under those circumstances what is the point of even playing?

What is the point of even having rules for the game?

You could enjoy yourself by just hitting the ball up against a wall. But there again maybe that is what you want, something that is completely anti-social - are you really that much of a misfit? Basic fact of life, in every sphere and in every facet of human endeavour there are winners and losers, the more you lose the more you learn, the more you must aspire to, without that concept human endeavour is nothing, it's what keeps us moving forward, and we have contiued to move forward (but not in Gaza or in the West Bank), no matter what you attempt to teach your children - by the bye I take it that Little Hawk has no children, I, on the other hand have four, all well educated all through university, all well settled and happy

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:04 PM

Oh, come now. There is no need for you to trouble yourself so over my opinions, Teribus. I would answer your diatribe point by point...but to do so, I'd have to be as obsessed with attacking you as you are with attacking me.

And I'm not.

It's perfectly okay with me that you and I have very different lives and utterly different philosophies.

But I will answer one of your questions, regarding the ping pong.

"What is the point of even having rules for the game?"

The rules are precisely what make the game the game, and make it enjoyable to play, and possible to play. You don't have any game without the rules. One doesn't have to keep score to follow the rules, my friend, but one does need the rules to understand how to conduct any given volley until it is ended. Obviously. The fun is in making it as good a volley as possible while it lasts. Each volley is its own complete fun. I've played a lot of ping pong, and I can attest to that. Just playing flat out, volley after volley, without worrying about the score is as great as just sailing a boat, or riding a horse, or any other physical activity. And you do have to know exactly what you're doing in all of them and follow certain general rules in order to do it efficiently and enjoy it.

I have no interest in arranging for more winners and losers, T, none.

I also have no interest in dividing the world up into more archetypal "good guys" and "bad guys" and going off to kill someone over it.

But that's okay. There will always be plenty of people who do have an interest in that, so don't worry about me being some kind of threat that is going to end it all. ;-)

Hitting the ball against a wall, by the way...or against the raised table top on a folding table...is a great way of speeding up your play and improving your technique, but it's not nearly as interesting as playing against another human being.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 02:42 AM

By all means Little Hawk, have a bit of a pop at me and ignore the points I raised against your diatribe against the US, that is after all the specific topic of this thread, concentrate on your ping-pong analogy.

The fact still remains that - "most countries do not fear America". That is purely the product of your rather jaundiced and totally biased opinion - always for the underdog eh? Oh, favourite hobby-horse of yours Little Hawk - most people, within their "Empire", did not hate the Romans either, they too provided security, prosperity, order, good governance and improvement - the people, in general, tended to appreciate all that.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: The Walrus
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:27 AM

Gentlemen Please!

The point about 'Folk Histories' and 'National Attitudes' is that they are not driven by fact, they are driven by PERCEPTION.

As far as the North Korean people are concerned, the USA (or the UN) WERE the invaders, not because of fact, but because that's what they have been taught for the last Fifty-odd years.

By the same token, I have spoken with Americans who solomnly declare that the USA has never lost a War (?!!!) when challenged over Vietnam, that was put down to the collapse of the South Vietnamese while the War of 1812 was declared a victory because impressment of (nominally) British born seamen* from American ships ended (Ignoring the fact that the cause for impressment - the Napoleonic Wars - had ended and the Invasion of Canada had failed badly) - Again, this was not a matter of Fact, but of Perception, they had been taught that way, if not by the schools, then by the likes of Hollywood and TV.

I'm sure that I, and everyone else on this forum, have similar problems as none of us grew up in isolation.

It's not what 'Nation A' plan to do (or not) to 'Nation B', it's what the people of 'B' believe that will shape their attitudes.
It's never about what really happened, it's what people believe.

Tom (Walrus)


* The official excuse for impressment of seamen from foreign ships, More honoured in the breach than the observance

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: pirandello
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:44 AM

Teribus, it is FACT that the Allies invaded North Korea at the insistence of MacAthur when Truman was happy for the Allies to stop at the 38th parallel. It is FACT that the Allies managed to get as far as the Yalu River which marks the geographical and political border with China. It is FACT that the Allies were ignominiously thrown back to the 38th prallel by vastly superior Chinese forces.
The only reason that China did not go further was because her supply lines were becoming dangerously over-extended.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:15 AM

It would be a surprise to the soldiers fighting on the side of the South Koreans, including my father, that the Chinese stopped at the 38th parallel. In fact, the Chinese took Seoul, the Korean capitol, and held it for several months.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:34 AM

Perhaps it"s the Americans' APPARENT disdain for anything and anyone outside their own admittedly rather large and complex country? Before the D-day invasion of Normandy, it was considered necessary to issue all American troops with a booklet outlining the history of France and its people, and the achievements of its engineers and scientists in the fields of aviation,medicine,electricity, mathematics,civil engineering, town planning, and the list goes on, whilst the average GI could only think of cheese, garlic, and women with hairy armpits ! Not that they were not CORRECT in that assessment, of course, but when carrying out an invasion of someone elses' country, whether hostile or for "liberation", it makes a huge difference if the "invader" shows respect for, and knowledge of, the ways ,habits and customs of the "invaded" .In virtually every film that I have seen, featuring the US army or Marines fighting in Germany, Korea, Vietnam, or wherever, the enemy are ALWAYS portrayed as being dumb savages, and ALWAYS referred to as Krauts, Gooks, Slopeheads, or whatever, which is very arrogant. History shows us that people who fail to understand or respect their enemies get their arse ( ASS) kicked !!! When I saw those pictures of that US Army woman humiliating her Iraqi prisoners in that disgusting way, ( and I don"t care how justified she thought she was, and anyway she seemed to be enjoying it too much) , I thought " Uh OH !! The Yanks have lost us this one---every Arab in the world is going to be against us NOW !!" And , of course, they are . And you can bet North Korean TV had a propaganda field-day with that one, too. !!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Dickey
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM

Amos: I totally agree that "The proposition, as artbrooks mentioned, is flawed in the asking. Individuals hate; groups like nations do not. When media, or noise and brouhaha create enough Fear Uncertainty and Doubt to make it appear that a whole group shares a hatred it is time to start talking to individuals; they are the only ones who can properly own an emotion or an attitude, and generally you will find most of them much more rational than any cloud of black-PR smoke will ever seem to be."

It is difficul to see through the media and government hype. Also foreign propaganda has a lot to do with it.

A further flaw in the question is that it implies everybody in Iraq and North Korea hates everybody in America and rather inflammatory. It is like asking why do wives hate their Mothers in Law?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: heric
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:35 AM

The question is further flawed in the asking beause of the comma after Iraq. You've got to ask yourself, cookster, do commas matter?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:52 AM

Well, I can't see that the comma in that sentence matters much one way or the other. While unnecessary, and incorrect, it does not create any ambiguity.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:55 AM

Teribus, I do think that the USA is the most feared country in the world at present, and is seen by a majority of people in the world as a rogue nation that is dangerous and out of control. I don't think there's really any doubt about it. And I don't think they truly protect anything but their own corporate mercantile interests.

Remember what Benito Juarez said?

"Poor Mexico. So far from God and so near the United States."

He was speaking from experience.

Walrus made a good point. National attitudes are not driven so much by fact as they are by perception. Perceptions are shaped by whatever mythology a government feeds to its people, in its schools and its media. North Korea teaches its kids to hate and fear the South Koreans and the USA. The USA teaches its kids to hate and fear North Korea, Iran, and various other such boogeymen. These things are not done to help anybody in the ordinary public, but to serve some grand and shadowy domestic or international purpose which is never clearly explained to those kids growing up. They are done to prepare people to go out and kill other people.

It's the ultimate game of competition, played out on the world stage, and it is founded upon lies, greed, and hypocrisy.

Great empires always do a lot of that...and yet, you can defend them by saying that they also establish order and bring various advancements (as the Romans did) (as the British did) (as the Americans have done in various cases too) (as still other empires have done). Well, yes, that's part of the picture. As you say, they (the Romans) brought "security, prosperity, order, good governance and improvement". I'd agree with that. Still, they were certainly resented, because they brought all of that at the point of a sword, and they came into other people's land and took it for their own...not because they loved other people or loved freedom and justice...no, because they loved conquest. They did it to satisfy their own appetites.

So again, it's a matter of perception, isn't it?

When Rome was governed well and wisely, then their subject peoples would have felt more respect for them. When Rome's rule deteriorated badly under a series of corrupt emperors, their subject peoples began to lose respect for them.

So, how wisely is America now being governed?

That again is a matter of perception, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: heric
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:01 PM

>So, how wisely is America now being governed?

That again is a matter of perception, isn't it? <

No, the quality of the current administration and the Congress is pretty much passed as a subject of debate.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:07 PM

Osama Bin Laden has told us in plain English why they hate us. We invaded their land and we still have troops ,(infidels) on their holy ground. Sure, we can disagree with him all night but that's not what it's about. It is THEIR attitude that we have to deal with.

One of the well known secrets of military success is, "Know your enemy".

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: heric
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:14 PM

The comma is a distraction. A very small one, sure, but with the page layout bringing it repeatedly to the top and to one's attention, it grates. The annoyance grows, ever so slowly . . .

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Dickey
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 11:37 PM

My plea to fellow Muslims: you must renounce terror


As the bombers return to Britain, Hassan Butt, who was once a member of radical group Al-Muhajiroun, raising funds for extremists and calling for attacks on British citizens, explains why he was wrong

Sunday July 1, 2007
The Observer

When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network, a series of semi-autonomous British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology, I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.

By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the 'Blair's bombs' line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.

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Friday's attempt to cause mass destruction in London with strategically placed car bombs is so reminiscent of other recent British Islamic extremist plots that it is likely to have been carried out by my former peers..."

        "..people are again articulating the line that violence carried out by Muslims is all to do with foreign policy. For example, yesterday on Radio 4's Today programme, the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: 'What all our intelligence shows about the opinions of disaffected young Muslims is the main driving force is not Afghanistan, it is mainly Iraq.'

He then refused to acknowledge the role of Islamist ideology in terrorism and said that the Muslim Brotherhood and those who give a religious mandate to suicide bombings in Palestine were genuinely representative of Islam.

I left the BJN in February 2006, but if I were still fighting for their cause, I'd be laughing once again. Mohammad Sidique Khan, the leader of the 7 July bombings, and I were both part of the BJN - I met him on two occasions - and though many British extremists are angered by the deaths of fellow Muslim across the world, what drove me and many of my peers to plot acts of extreme terror within Britain, our own homeland and abroad, was a sense that we were fighting for the creation of a revolutionary state that would eventually bring Islamic justice to the world..."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2115832,00.html

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 12:14 AM

Uh-huh. Well, here's a plea to all people and their governments:

We must renounce the use of terror, whether it is carried out by hidden cells (such as Al Queda) or by national armies (any of them) or by covert agencies (such as the CIA) on behalf of national governments. All actions of organized and premeditated violence are the use of terror...since they are clearly intended to terrorize someone else into surrender...or to simply kill someone else who is regarded as "undesirible" from the point of view of he who orders to the terror attacks to be carried out.

We must renounce the use of aggression. (based on the notion that one has the right to attack others first, as Hitler did to Poland, as Japan did to Pearl Harbor (etc), and as the USA and Britain did more recently to Iraq and Afghanistan.)

We must renounce the use of torture.

We must renounce the abrogation of our own people's civil rights in the name of "security".

We must renounce the further building of weapons of mass destruction.

We must renounce the unwillingness to honestly confront evil when it is we, our own governments, agencies, and armed forces who are doing it.

There's a reasonable start. Apply it not only to the Muslims worldwide, but also to all other people on this planet, and tell me when you think you can achieve it.

Remember what it says in the Bible, Dickey? (I know you respect the Bible.) It says not to go on and on about the speck in the other fellow's eye, while ignoring the beam that is stuck in your own eye. What do you think all these governments are doing when they pretend that evil can be seen only on the face of their chosen enemy?

They're lying. And they are committing evil acts themselves in the process.

Of course, this sort of thing has been going on for centuries, so why should anyone be surprised...?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Dickey
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 08:29 AM

It's a mean old world ain't it Little Hawk? But if you study it closely you will see it is getting less mean all the time.

The gist of the words by the former Muslim terrorist is that the "hate" is not caused by foreign policy but a desire for fundamental muslim justice to prevail in the world and not just in the middle east. I think you will agree that Muslim justice, stoning to death of women and homos for example, is very mean indeed.

The Bible and the Qur'an both are books where you can find anything argued both ways. For and against peace. For and against killing those that disagree with you. Therefore they can be used to support or condemn any position thay anyone takes. As far as I can see, religion has been used as a reason for wars and killing more than anything else. Remember Patton used to pray to God for good conditions so his men could kill the Germans?

"Almighty and most merciful Father, we humbly beseech Thee, of Thy great goodness, to restrain these immoderate rains with which we have had to contend. Grant us fair weather for Battle. Graciously hearken to us as soldiers who call upon Thee that, armed with Thy power, we may advance from victory to victory, and crush the oppression and wickedness of our enemies and establish Thy justice among men and nations."

I am not a religious person but I seek to get along with anybody of any religion, to coexist, to not force my beliefs or non beliefs on anyone else. But when someone announces they want to kill me because I do not believe what they believe, I tend to resist being either killed or being converted to their beliefs.

I live within sight of a brand new "Islamic Learning Center" that is still under construction. I am wondering if it will change the character of the neighbor hood. I am wondering if Muslim families will buy the neighboring houses that go up for sale. I am wondering if they will start imposing their belief system on others and be biased in their treatment of non Muslims.

I am fully hoping I can coexist with these people if the move in as I anticipate but if they show me intolerance, they will get intolerance in return but I am not going to be the to cast the first stone.

By the way did you know that when Muslims buy a house they can't pay interest so the interest is added to the price of the home up front? Or it is called rent paid over and above the payment toward the principle.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 01:13 PM

Yes, Muslim justice as set out in the Qran (and in the Christian and Jewish Old Testament) is a viciously mean set of rules, Dickey. It's an insane set of rules. I don't subscribe to it. Fortunately, there are plenty of more liberal and modern Muslims, Christians, and Jews who don't either.

Every religion has its extremists, I'm afraid, and they're no fun to deal with.

Yes, the Bible and the Qran can be used to justify anything. You just select the passage that suits your purpose, and interpret it the way that suits your purpose.

People are tricky that way... ;-)

Anyway, I've got a brand new theory as to why Iraq, Iran, and North Korea hate America....(quite aside from the fact that America has overtly threatened them on a number of occasions...)

It's unrequited love! They feel that America has rejected them. And remember, there is no anger like that of a lover spurned. I think you could also say that about Castro's Cuba. Shortly after his revolution succeeded, Castro went to New York to speak at the U.N., and he went with the expectation that he would then go to Washington and speak to the president and Congress and work out friendly trade agreements and stuff.

They wouldn't even talk to him. Total rejection. Nothing hurts like rejection, Dickey. (smile) The gloves were off after that. He went to Russia on the rebound.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,philgarringer
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 10:52 PM

I suspect that we are hated now for many of the same reasons that the British were hated for so long.

White Man's Burden

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

I would suppose that those Iraqis that hate us (I am not referring to the jihadis or the Baathists) hate us because they see us as the cause of their all of their problems. There is also the undeniable influence of their religion and racial pride.

The Koreans? Most of the Koreans that I have met do not hate the US, unless you are speaking about the North Koreans. Who knows about them? It's kind of hard to take an opinion poll up there, what with the Glorious Leader's thugs with AK's everywhere. I would imagine, though, that any North Korean who would say he hated the US would risk life and limb if he thought he could get himself and his family over here.

I am sure there were plenty of folks over in the Soviet Union that "hated" us the same way, as well.

I think a BETTER question would be why the Western Europeans (as well as our good neighbors to the north) hate us so...

Another good question would be, should we care?

"It is better to suffer the hatred of evil men than their company"

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 10:58 PM

Are you he who is trying to save the St Lawrence River manatees? If so, my sincere thanks to you.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 11:46 PM

Speaking as a Canadian...we don't hate you, philgarringer. We don't hate ordinary Americans at all. We fear your irresponsible government leaders, your secret service agencies, your military leaders, and your giant corporations. We fear that they may commit irrational imperial acts which will in the end destroy our way of life and our freedoms...as well as yours. We fear that they will drag the world into another great war.

We are not evil men. Not in the least. We are ordinary men, just like you. Our hopes and dreams are much like yours. We are patriots, just as you are.

Your comparison to the British empire's unpopularity at its height is rather apt, as is the poem, but I think the British usually ran their empire a bit more wisely and sanely than yours is being run at present. They were self-serving despots, true, but they were still a good deal more rational and legally consistent than most despots are. They were a lot like the Romans...ruthless, but at least dependably consistent in their ways.

I would not have blamed people for hating the long arm of British Imperial power in those days, nor would I have called those people "evil men" for so doing.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 12:51 AM

The US is, has or wants an empire? That would be news to most of us, including the idiots in Washington.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:05 AM

Well, if the US doesn't have an empire, who will call the World Series games? Huh? Huh?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 10:54 AM

I never heard of the Manatee tribe before.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:04 PM

Empires are run a bit differently now. Official colonialism is dead, not being politically acceptable anymore. But economic colonialism is alive and flourishing. Present day empires are run by banks, corporations, marketing men, and media conglomerates. Money moves freely around the world electronically, and most of it is in the control of a small number of huge commercial and banking entities. Backing up that money and marketing machine are the largest military forces in the world, nuclear weaponry, biological weaponry, space weaponry, the CIA, professional hit men and torturers, paramilitary death squads, bought judges, bought politicians, and bought governments in Third World countries.

If you happen to get in the way, you get run over like an ant.

The best you can hope for is that you don't happen to get in the way.

If you lack conscience...or just lack full awareness of what you're actually doing...you can get a job working for the empire as a cog in its machine. If so, you will probably be more or less allright as long as your health holds up...and you don't get in the way.

But it all depends on how you look at it. Every empire has its enthusiastic followers and loyal soldiers. Britain did. Rome did. Germany and Japan did. America does. China does.

Just don't get in the way.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,Philgarringer
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 10:05 PM

Yes, I am the lonely defender of the St. Lawrence manatees. Thanks for the support!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,Phil Garringer
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 10:45 PM

Bonum est confidere in Dominum, quam confidere in homine.
Bonum est sperare in Domino quam sperare in principibus.
(117:8/DRV)

It is good to confide in the Lord, rather than to have confidence in man.
It is good to trust in the Lord, rather than to trust in princes.

Little Hawk, I am SURE you and would disagree politically on son many issues, but I think you and I can agree on this quote.

ALL governments suck. Yours sucks. Mine sucks. Your country is run by multinational corporations, just as much as mine is. In Canada, they give you the illusion that you are being taken care of and that your hands are clean, but that's about the only difference.

I do disagree on one thing, though. There are those who do hate my people and culture (not just my government), in Canada and the Western European nations that have been in the past "allies".

The phrase "oh, we don't hate the Americans as PEOPLE, just their government" is the same as when someone says "don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are (fill in ethnic group here)!"

I have seen it, and experienced it in my travels to both England, France, and Canada. When children's hockey teams have their bus attacked by a mob of screaming Canadians, don't tell me that the mob is attacking an international corporation!

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31846

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48221

I guess the Canadians just hate our teenage multi billion dollar corporate hockey team CIA thugs, not us as a people.

And our good amigos del sur...they must just hate our evil corporations, wait, our evil corporations WANT to grant amnesty to the illegal aliens... Maybe it's our support of the jews, then. Who can keep up with this kind of thing? Not me, as an untravelled, uneducated, insular American.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,275993,00.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/28/91333.shtml

And the Palestinians (of course, they just hate our evil corporations, which are run by the jews, who had advanced notice of 9/11, and so none were hurt in the attack...)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34187,00.html

Maybe this all started as legitimate concern over the direction that American is taking in foreign policy. Or maybe, just maybe it's actually a real and deep seated (however irrational) hatred of the USA and of her people.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 11:00 PM

I think the Manatee crusade deserves a clicky. Bless you, Phil, for this wonderful service....

Also see: Phillip the Manatee. A sample:

A Manatee
by Travis
A manatee is playful.
A manatee is fun, but our
Manatee is Philip and
He's an endangered species.

Are those Canadian or American manatees you're trying to protect, Phil?
-Joe Offer-