Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?

Subject: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 12:44 PM

OK. we've had the usual range of blokes defending Young Hunting.

So who thinks Matt Hyland was a whingeing wimp, a mercenary bastard, an arse interested only in money?

Lord's daughter says to him: 'You'd better scarper, me dad's found out about us' and he says:

'Ah, must I go the young man said
Ah, must I go without my wages?'

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: HouseCat
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 01:05 PM

I'm so glad someone feels that way. ALWAYS thought he was a complete wussy. I do like singing the song though.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 01:20 PM

Well . . . I have to admit that I've come close to learning the song a number of times, but that whining about his wages when the love of his life is at stake has always put me off.

Now, the kind of lovers I admire are like the young lady in Jock o'Hazeldean. She knew what she wanted and she went after it! Way to go, girl!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 01:40 PM

All right, yes, he's whiny - but it's SUCH a lovely song. Part of the joy in a certain kind of ballad is being able to sing about very silly people doing very silly things with lovely tunes as a frame. It's like a soap opera for those who don't watch daytime TV.

So while I agree it's a mercenary thing to say (unless he's just grasping at excuses to stay, in which case I'd have to go back to the whiny diagnosis), I still love singing the song. And it's nice to have the female character be the strong one in the relationship.

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 01:52 PM

Matt Hyland has glorious TUNE.
Really needs something else set to it.
Now the character I really admire is Willie o'Winsbury:

O A will mairry yer dochter Janet
By the truth o my right hand
An I will mairry yer dochter Janet
But the de'il tak aa yer land

Dick Gaughan says he sang this for an audience of Merseyside dockers who all stood up and cheered after that verse.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Declan
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 02:00 PM

Assuming the doclers were Union men they probably would probably also have cheered Matt Hyland making sure his boss paid him what he owed him before he sent him into exile. He would have surely been a wimp if he had agreed to slink away and leave without getting what was due to him.

I'm getting a distinct feeling of Deja Vu about this. I think there was a similar thread about this quite recently.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 02:11 PM

. I think there was a similar thread about this quite recently

Was there?
Can you find it and link?
I was just leaping from Child #68 to #100.
And one song to the tune of another.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: peregrina
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 02:27 PM

Does wages really mean wages in that verse? Or could it be metaphorical wages, a private promise between the two of them? Or is that being too complicated

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 02:32 PM

Since the next line is:

Here's 50 guineas in bright gold
And that's far more than father owes you.

I don't think there's much doubt that Matt wants his dosh,

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Declan
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 02:36 PM

Diane,

Can't find it. It may have been elsewhere.

Anyway I still think he was right. If the daughter was proposing to run off with him it might have been different, but she was telling him to run away and she was staying put - why should he loose both the money and the girl!

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Declan
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 02:57 PM

In any event, I don't think it was much of sacrifice for Willie to give up the offer of the land, since he was already the lord of so much land as you'd ride on a long summer's day. Which means either that he was either already rich or he had a very slow horse.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:05 PM

Well, that was the point, wasn't it?
A riposte to the father who thought he could bribe Willie into marrying his daughter.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:10 PM

In other versions Willie tells the king "She will a queen as I am a king when we get to far Scotland." So he's rich.

I always chuckle at the wages line in Matt Hyland - when I'm not the one singing it - and there's nothing wrong with a little comic relief in a ballad.

It would be interesting to find other variants. I only know the one, which seems to a relatively late variation, since it refers to the (potential) transportation of Matt Hyland.

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Declan
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:15 PM

Yes but its easy to turn down the money if you are already rich. 50 guineas in bright gold is (or was) a lot of money for a servant.

Maybe the father and the daughter were working a scam - she befriends the servant, she then tells him the father has found out and he runs off saving the father a fortune.

OK it doesn't fit in with the rest of the song. But maybe she changed her mind when she discovered he wasn't a total sap and wasn't going without his money.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:38 PM

Where ever does it say Matt Hyland was rich?
Just has a strange sense of priorities.

It's Willie o' Winsbury who's rich.
The King's daughter would be well advised to leave immediately with him though.
Cos the King's dosh was possibly intended to try and purchase Willie for himself . . .

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Declan
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:50 PM

I don't think anyone said Matt was rich.

His (Matt's) negotiations (with the help of the daughter) ended up very successfully for him, he got the girl, his 50 guineas and was made a lord. A much better outcome than runnong off with nothing.

You might be right about the Da. He seemed to be quite taken by Willie. Maybe I should rephrase that.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 03:54 PM

Certainly less balls than 'Sweet Lovely Joan' -go girl!

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 05:51 PM

I was always quite concerned at the number of young women who had milk pails on their heads at crucial moments (not in Matt Hyland, I hasten to add). Wonder if this was an early version of the brown paper bag?   And how often, after moments of what one can only describe as intimacy, the couple politely shake hands before going their separate ways. We've lost that kind of politeness today - at least, none of my swains ever shook my hand afterwards. Maybe I've always met the wrong men?

Anne

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 05:56 PM

Yes, I agree Matt Hyland can be perceived as a wimp. I've always loved playing song when my singing partner sings it, however.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:38 PM

The earlier thread that touched on this aspect of the song (apparantly of 19th century broadside origin and rare in tradition; though popular for a while in the rival) was Origins: Matt Hyland origins??.

Many of the same comments made here were made there. See the earlier discussion, though, in particular for some trenchant and enlightening comments from John Moulden which puts the situation into useful perspective.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:39 PM

'revival', of course, not 'rival'.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: harpmolly
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:15 PM

Well, there's no question that the daughter (oddly nameless) is the dominant one in that relationship *grin*. But I never really held his asking about wages against him...I'd have to agree with Declan. She's basically saying, as Juliet would put it, "...And the place death, considering who thou art,/If any of my kinsmen find thee here." In other words, he doesn't have much choice. And it's reasonable not to want to wander off without any money to live on, unless you're Jane Eyre. ;)

M

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:19 PM

I don't think he was much of a wimp...he just loved gold more than her...very smart man.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Gulliver
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 10:01 PM

I think anyone posting to this thread is a wimp--takes one to know one

(shit, that includes me too)

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: IvanB
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 10:41 PM

Without money, Matt was about as good as dead. Remember, the lord had complete control of him, most likely even to the extent of making him unemployable anywhere he could get to without funds. With some money, he was able to get far enough away to be out of the lord's influence. I'm thinking his remarks might well be interpreted as "without money, I might as well be transported because I'll be a dead man here."

I've loved this song for a number of years and never begrudged Matt his lament over his wages. Too many of us brand him a wimp looking at him from our experiences where, all too often, "deprivation" means we couldn't get our extra towels at the Holiday Inn because the washer broke down.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 11:41 PM

Still, that verse changes the mood of the song & the character of one of the two principles & kills the romance. I prefere to sing the song without that verse & would rather keep noble act of love in tack.

Barry

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: harpmolly
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:02 AM

Funny, I feel the verse sort of adds to the heartbreaking quality of the song...I never felt that it killed the romance. She's looking out for him, and has obviously anticipated his nervousness by having the fifty guineas all ready. I think IvanB hit the nail on the head. I think it would have killed the romance a lot more if she'd said, "Hey, sorry man, my dad's minions will be along any minute to haul you away, so hit the road, Jack...it's been nice knowing you."

;) Molly

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:31 AM

I don't think it killed the romance - couldn't have, since the next thing they do is hold each other for half an hour.

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:05 AM

Tabster said: "And how often, after moments of what one can only describe as intimacy, the couple politely shake hands before going their separate ways."

I like how in Down the Moor, he "courts" her all the livelong day - whether this is a euphemism for shagging I'm not sure, but it implies there's at least some canoodling going on - and then when she runs off to look after her sheep, he reveals that "her name and place I did not gather".

Frankly, that's quite bizarre. You spend all day tumbling in the heather with a girl, and you don't even get each other's names? And they say the youth of today have no morals...

Another illogical courtship song: Courting Too Slow. Here's a bloke who buys a woman shoes, and she dumps him. Rule number one, ladies: if he understands the importance of shoes, he's a keeper.

Sorry - answer to the OP's question: yes, that line has always made me laugh. What a loser.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 03:47 AM

Let's rewrite it to give him the fate he deserved.

"Ah, must I go," the young man said
"Ah, must I go without my wages
With ne'er a penny in my purse
Just like some poor forlorn stranger?"
"OK," she said, "Just hang around,
And when the cops come in the morning,
You ask them for your fifty pounds,
Don't say I didn't give you warning!"

There is a ship out in the bay,
It's setting sail for far Australia,
Matt Hyland's chained down in the hold,
Because he's such a hopeless failure.
And in the castle there's a maid,
She's sitting writing out a letter,
To Sits Vac in the local rag,
Let's hope the next bloke will be better.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 05:27 AM

I think Matt was very brave to insist on his wages. These heroes to stand up to non paying bosses are few and far between. And they rarely get credit for it. Consider the hardest bargainer of the lot:

Lankin was as good mason as ever cut stone.
Built a castle for Lord Wary but payment got none.
"Come pay me Lord Wary. Come pay me out of hand."
"I cannot pay you Lankin unless I sell my land."
"Come pay me Lord Wary. Come pay me my fee."
"I cannot pay you Lankin for I must go to sea."

How many people bother to sing those verses? How many just dive in and make it look like the poor lad was a demented psychopath?

And friend and I once had an interesting evening adding verses to finish off folk songs in a more Marxist manner. This one got:
Come all of you nobles and listen to me -
If you hire a workman then pay him his fee.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 05:31 AM

Long Lankin was a demented psychopath.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: GUEST,IS
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 06:58 AM

Come on, everybody knows that Lankin/Lamkin/etc was neither a demented psychopath nor a wronged mason - we was just a poor leper seeking a drop of infant's blood to heal him.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM

Come on, Lamkin was a mason.

How tough is that for him.

So he didn't get paid. One dodgy handshake, a word in the right ear and his friends will rally round and help him out.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:16 PM

I am currently writing a biography of a man who was tutor to Prince William of Orange (Who later became King William III or King Billy) for 18 months and never got paid for that. When William's mother died, the new guardian apparently told him to depart forthwith.

See here in Wikipedia Samuel Chappuzeau

However, the only musical link I have found is where he describes the orchestra in the theatre, which in those days sat in the wings or at the back.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:29 PM

Mr Chappuzeau, a Calvinist thrown out of France. Yes, well . . .
I don't suppose Flora MacDonald got paid for rowing Charles Edward Stuart over the sea to Skye.
Though I imagine she wishes she'd tipped him over the side and we'd been spared that awful song.
See Brian McNeil's Strong Women Rule Us All for a glimpse into a life which was so unfair but during which she retained her dignity.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 02:10 PM

He was NEVER thrown out of France!

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: GUEST,Pavane
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 02:15 PM

And it is clear that he held modern views on women's rights, believing that they should be propely educated, and criticising actresses for not joining the men when discussing new plays.
He also said that all people's religious views should be respected, and he would not criticise those of other faiths.

But sorry for the thread creep.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 02:19 PM

He was excluded, whether officially or by choice, for religious reasons. Which cannot be right.

Point is, Tom Payne managed to become persona non grata absolutely everywhere. Which gave rise to loads of great songs.

None of which has anything to do with the wimpish Mr Hyland.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 02:53 PM

Poor Mr (or Sieur) Chappuzeau - with a name like that, NO-ONE could write a song about him, I think.

Subject: RE: Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp?
From: harpmolly
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 05:24 PM

LOL!