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Origins: Matt Hyland origins??

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MATT HYLAND
MATT HYLAND 2


Related threads:
Review: Was Matt Hyland a wimp? (41)
Tune Req: Matt Hyland - Guitar Tablature? (9)
Chords Req: Matt Hyland (14)


GUEST,penny 20 Jan 07 - 03:01 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 20 Jan 07 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,John Moulden 20 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM
Malcolm Douglas 20 Jan 07 - 09:58 PM
GUEST 21 Jan 07 - 01:04 PM
The Borchester Echo 21 Jan 07 - 01:20 PM
Little Robyn 21 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,penny 22 Jan 07 - 08:13 AM
Declan 22 Jan 07 - 01:53 PM
The Borchester Echo 22 Jan 07 - 02:09 PM
Barry Finn 22 Jan 07 - 02:38 PM
Declan 22 Jan 07 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Guest: Hempsey 22 Jan 07 - 03:00 PM
GUEST 22 Jan 07 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,John Moulden 22 Jan 07 - 05:33 PM
Barry Finn 22 Jan 07 - 06:32 PM
Gulliver 22 Jan 07 - 06:39 PM
Don Firth 22 Jan 07 - 07:37 PM
Barry Finn 22 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM
GUEST,John Moulden 23 Jan 07 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Gerry Doyle (17 Feb 2015) 21 Feb 15 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,Ron Adams 20 Feb 17 - 04:36 AM
rich-joy 21 Feb 17 - 12:47 AM
Ross Campbell 21 Feb 17 - 10:01 PM
GUEST,Desi C 22 Feb 17 - 06:06 AM
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Subject: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST,penny
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:01 AM

Hi I have recently learnt a song called Matt Hyland - trad. Irish. Just wondering if anyone knows the origins of this song?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:07 AM

If you go to Watersoncarthy.com, click on albums and choose But Two Came By, you'll find Martin's brief explanation of how he found the song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

Cathal McConnell learned this song from a singer called Tommy MacDermott, who has just himself, at a fairly advanced age, made a cd. Cathal performed it on a Mercier Press (Cork) LP which was later republished by Topic. It was called "The Irish Jubillee" and he made it with Robin Morton (I wrote the sleeve notes). That, so far as I know was its earliest introduction to the 'folk scene' though it was widespread on Irish ballad sheets of the latter half of the nineteenth century and has been collected in USA as "Young Martiland". A version, sung by Liz Jefferies, is on one of the Topic "Voice of the People" series.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 09:58 PM

Broadsides issued by Armstrong of Liverpool (1820-1824) and Birmingham of Dublin (c.1867) can be seen at  Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads, together with another of unknown provenance:

Young Mat Hyland / Mat Hyland / Young Matisland

Robin Morton printed a set from Sandy McConnell of Bellanaleek, Co Fermanagh, in Folksongs Sung in Ulster, 1970, 1-2, and commented that its had "become increasingly popular ... since Tommy McDermott, from Co Fermanagh, sang it in the ballad competition the year he won the All-Ireland championship. In fact it seems to be sung traditionally only in south-west Ulster."

Jim Carroll and Pat MacKenzie got a couple of sets in the 1970s (Jim posts here sometimes; perhaps he will comment too), and a few other examples are listed in the Roud Folk Song Index: number 2880. Evidently Joe Heaney knew it, but I don't know if he ever recorded it.

It does seem to have been a fairly scarce song in tradition (although its rarity in collections doesn't necessarily mean that it was not more widely known in reality), though it became very popular in the Revival for a while. Presumably it originated in the broadside press of the earlyish C19, though I'd imagine that the rather grand tune is older. I'd be interested in anything anybody might have to add on the subject of the tune; I feel as if I ought to recognise it from somewhere else as well, but I can't put a finger on it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 01:04 PM

We recorded it several times from Irish Travellers; Andy Cash from Wexford was the only one to have a full set of it.
Peggy McMahon of Mullagh, West Clare gave it to us more recently.
It's very popular here in Ireland, hadn't realised until I checked on Roud that there were so few recorded traditional versions, though I was aware of it's popularity in the revival.
I find it a strange song - as Malcolm says, a very grand tune, but the narrative has always struck me as somewhat bland.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 01:20 PM

somewhat bland

. . . and ever so whingey. Like the wuss couldn't even think of pushing off cos he hadn't had his wages. So she gives him 50 guineas in bright gold 'and that's far more than father owes you . . . ' I mean, it ain't Lord Bateman, is it?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: Little Robyn
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM

Forget the words. Tony Rose made it sound luverly!
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST,penny
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:13 AM

Thanks guys - this is helpful. I agree that the words are not the most inspiring, but there are some nice versions of it out there. I first heard it at a session in Ireland when i was trying to trace some family history (the Hylands are in my family background) and i was hoping to find out if it directly related to my family or if it was just a coincidence?

It's probably too many years ago for anyone to know the real answer.........


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: Declan
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:53 PM

The first person I heard sining this song was Al O'Donnell who did a lovely version.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:09 PM

Al O'Donnell's rendition certainly was excellent. Threadhopping shamelessly, I did wonder about his complete airbrushing from Folk Hibernia. Al's early career had certain parallels with those of Luke Kelly and Christy Moore who were very much part of the UK folk scene in the 1960s. All returned to Ireland in the early 1970s: Christy to form Planxty, Luke to hook up again with Ronnie Drew and become a Dubliner, but Al to work at RTE. Now that he has retired, there have been whispers that he might tour again. Anyone know anything?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:38 PM

It's been so long since I fist learnt this that I can't remember where I got it from (I haven't song it in years) thanks for bringing it up I'll have to renew myself with it. I've always loved the song except for the verse where he (I do agree) "whines" about his money. Not a very romantic act & I've often wondered if it wasn't a poor add-on. If it were left up to 'the folk' I think that verse would've disapeared with just a little more time. I think Jean Redpath did this (recorded) in the late 70's early 80's, I never liked her rendition of it though, it soundede like a parlour song when she did it.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: Declan
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:39 PM

He has done a few gigs around Dublin. I haven't been but I've heard good reports. There was an Al thread here a while back and his son (I think) was providing information on upcoming gigs.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST,Guest: Hempsey
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:00 PM

What do you mean he was whining about having to depart without his wages. Sounds like a good trade unionist to me.

Hempsey.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:25 PM

I saw Al O'Donnell play at the Cobblestone (Dublin) during the Summer. He had some nice songs, in particular a few dealing with 1798, but there was hardly anyone there. Very few of the crowd I play with in Dublin sessions have even heard of him, which is a pity. I suppose he's been off the scene too long...

I learned this song from Gerry Crilly, years ago. He's still on the go, plays O'D's on Monday nights.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:33 PM

The lines that say:

"Oh must I go away," he said, "Oh must I go without my wages",
"Without a penny in my purse, just like a poor forlorn stranger."

have to be read in the context of the hiring system of the agricultural labour market in 19th and early 20th century Ireland (and Scotland too and much or northern England) where a labourer was bound to a farmer for six months in exchange for an agreed wage which was paid only at the end of the period. Leaving early meant the loss of, in this case (because the couple needed time to get to know one another) approaching half a years money. I think that's no small matter and worth whingeing about. Hiring was an iniquitous system which met its end with the Second World War and the Agricultural Workers' Wages Board. I remember hearing that Joe Holmes (Len Graham's singing partner who died in 1979), who had hired, remarked that he had never had a decant week's pay till that man Hitler came along.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:32 PM

Thanks for that John, it does lend a little more to his whining character. I guess some of us would like to sing of folks with more heart than pocket, however unrealistic.

Maybe "Must I leave without my love, I care not for my wages" would've been a bit more likeable even if not as practical.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: Gulliver
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:39 PM

Ooops, lost my cookie--that last Guest comment about Al O'Donnell was me...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:37 PM

I really like the song, and I was about to learn it. But that one verse sort of put me off my jam and bread. I can sympantize with the poor sod's situation, but his making an issue of it tends to spoil the romance of the thing.

I moved on to learn "Jock o'Hazeldean." Now, there's a chick who doesn't just sit there and let herself be pushed around. Way to go, girl!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM

Yes Don, I just never could stand to add that verse when I was singing it.

Ya, the last verse in JO'H is as much the balls to that song as the other verse in MH is a loss of balls to itself.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:23 PM

What would it mean to you to be turned off your job and lose half a years pay? That statement is not comparing like with like but is a bit more realistic than invoking romance, which in any case is a luxury of the middle class. These hired workers were poor people, living on or below the breadline. I've recently read "The Dillen" by Angela Hewins. That gives a view of what the English labouring poor went through in the late 19th early 20th century. Their lives were easily as bad as the Irish poor.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST,Gerry Doyle (17 Feb 2015)
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 05:55 PM

Hyland is a surname in Mourne, County Down, and i heard a version that mentioned the river Bann. The upper Bann rises in the Mourne Mountains and the song is popular in Down.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST,Ron Adams
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 04:36 AM

I'm doing a gig at Aylesbury Rotary tonight with a romantic theme and put Matt Hyland in. I then thought I'd look on Mudcat to see what people know about, so thanks everybody....seriously. I don't think, though,that I'll give them a lecture on all this. :)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: rich-joy
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 12:47 AM

I can never think of this song (Roud 2880), without hearing the glorious voice of ARCHIE FISHER!
Both he and Martin Carthy recorded it on their 1968 albums; Archie's being the self-titled one for Transatlantic (XTRA 1070), and to this day, one of my all-time faves! :) :) :)

Cheers,
R-J

https://mainlynorfolk.info/martin.carthy/songs/matthyland.html


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 10:01 PM

First encountered Matt Hyland on Archie Fisher's debut LP, which I practically wore out. The album seemed to disappear into the Dave Bulmer abyss for years, with the occasional spotting of allegedly CD-R versions.

Just came across this on Amazon, available March 3rd 2017, £11.90 + £1.26 unless you spend £20

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Archie-Fisher/dp/B01N2WJ5CO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1487730483&sr=8-3&keywords=archie+fisher

Released on the Chariot Records label, also available from Proper Records Distribution from Friday 24th February 2017, £10.49 post free.

http://www.propermusic.com/label/Chariot-Records-6048

I cannot recommend this album highly enough. The choice of songs is excellent, while the musical arrangements are as tasteful as you could wish for.

Other Archie Fisher and Barbara Dickson albums also appear to have been recently re-released by Chariot Records.

Ross


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Subject: RE: Origins: Matt Hyland origins??
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 22 Feb 17 - 06:06 AM

One of my favourite songs, I love the line where he asks 'must I go without my wages' has his priorities right eh! A friend in Dublin told me it was influenced by Romeo & Juliet and that the happy ending last verse is a late addition from an original version


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