BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?

Subject: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 04:00 PM

Hi..I have a backup car just in case but want to run this one (85 Buick Century) to the ground..I think the engine etc. is good on it...but it is stalling first thing in the morning..I have had the fuel line filter replaced...I am sure it needs a tuneup but I want to make sure that should fix it. I haven't changed the oil filter in a few months so I will do that...it will stall now about 4 times in the morning, at stops, thank heavens..(I drive on basically empty roads)...then when I drive it later in the day it is just AOK...carbeurator? choke? dirt clog somewhere? Thanks..mg

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 04:07 PM

If it has a choke that is the most likely culprit. If it is fuel injected, it's a sensor.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 04:18 PM

I think a really beautiful car stall would be made of flame-grained black walnut, lightly stained and finished with a simple wiping of boiled linseed oil.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: skipy
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 04:28 PM

The fact that cows live in it?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM

When was the last time the injectors were cleaned? Or the car was tuned up?
Try running some drygas through the system. You might have water in there. Once the car has been running for a while, the water might be mixed in with the fuel rather than settled out.
As you can see, there are plenty of possible answers.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:03 PM

The description suggests a choke problem as a first place to look.

In and around that era, it was common for (US) cars to use a "rapid unloader" of one sort or another that forced the choke open rather quickly, sometimes before the engine warmed up enough to run well - especially at idle at the first few stops. There were a couple of methods but a common one was to apply a bit of manifold vacuum "suck" to help the choke plate to the open position as soon as the engine was turning fast enough.

If it starts, the choke probably is closing sufficiently when cold, but may be "hanging open" when rpm goes down and some choke effect is still needed, so a bit of cleaning in the choke area might be helpful. This should not require removal or disassembly of the carbureter unless things are incredibly gunked up.

A fairly high-maintenance item on cars of that era was the PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) valve, that usually sticks into the top of the valve cover to allow vapors from the crankcase to be sucked back into the intake manifold and burned. The valve is supposed to open and close in response to intake manifold suction, and if it sticks open it can make the mixture "excessively rich" at idle, when your stall is occuring. Replacement of the PCV Valve at regular intervals was usually recommended in that era, but is more of an "as needed" thing with more recent vehicles. (Other things have been redesigned to reduce the amount of crankcase vapor the valve has to handle - they say.)

If you can access it easily, a PCV Valve replacement should be easily done, the valve shouldn't be terribly expensive, and it's probably overdue if you haven't had regular service on the car, although it's not a "sure fix" for you present problem.

Your vehicle probably also has an EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) system that feeds exhaust gas back into the intake to "final burn" the hydrocarbons out of the exhaust. (The addition of a bit of exhaust also makes the mixture "look richer" and allows leaner inlet fuel mix without knock/preignition etc.) There were numerous different systems, when/where they were used varies with which "market" the car was built for, and I have no reference sources to check what/which/ifany may have been on yours. Unless you're at least "semi-skilled" at maintenance or "obsessively curious" most maintenance of these systems probably is best performed by a competent shop ("competent" and "shop" used together are not always a non-sequitor, but caution advised)

When poor performance after sitting for a time occurs, and goes away after the engine runs for a while, a possible suspect is "weak electricals" but isolating this kind of problem can be difficult. What happens - sometimes - is that insulation develops cracks or porosity that allows moisture to penetrate "to the wire inside." Surface moisture allows "short circuiting" to unintended places - especially of high voltages in the ignition system, so things don't work well when you start up. When the surface moisture is evaporated, the "short" disappears, but this doesn't mean the absorbed/adsorbed moisture within the deteriorated wire/part is necessarily "boiled out." (An extraneous "wire" doesn't hurt a thing as long as it's not connected to something on the other end.) The condition can reoccur after fairly short times without use, since the internal moisture is still there, and only a very small amount of external/surface "dew" (usually not visible) re-establishes the fault condition.

An "experienced but not too fussy" mechanic might try spraying the ignition wire, plugs, and distributor cap with WD40 (a pretty-good, quick "drying agent") before the first startup to see if the problem is solved temporarily, but the only real fix is to replace the affected parts. (Note that excessive and repeated use of WD40 can cause deterioration of some insulating materials, although the amounts required for a quick look shouldn't be harmful.)

Mostly random thoughts here. Hands-on is the only way to be sure what's going on.

John

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:07 PM

If the car has a catalytic converter it may be clogged and have to be replaced. Another possibility would be the timing chain. I have a 1987 Dodge van and have had similar problems over the years.

                                                    SOL

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: John J
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:14 PM

A quick check for HT lead breakdown: Run the engine in the pitch dark, look at leads / distributor cap / ignition coil. Insulation breakdown will be apparent when you see the sparks (which may well be quite faint).

The oil filter, whilst it probably does need changing (do it at the same time as the oil change) won't cause a stalling problem.

The problem is going to be either sparks or juice, you need to decide!

Good luck,

John

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:16 PM

Does it run badly in wet weather, but okay in dry weather?

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:17 PM

On pre fuel injection cars, automatic chokes were very problematical, causing, amoung other things, stalling when cold. A lot of people in the uk fitted a conversion to convert to manual choke. these were very simple devices with nothing to go wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:22 PM

I absolutely love a manual choke....it seems to run the same in wet or dry..we have actually been quite dry lately..but we get a lot of rain here so things rust out.

Well, actually lack of maintenance could be a consideration here. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 10:19 PM

A tune-up is the first step. And, if this car is has fuel injection, clean the injectors. On a car this old, there are lots of things that can be worn down, out, or through. Don't replace anything that doesn't absolutely need it, because replacing all the worn parts on an 85 Buick will cost more than the car is worth.

Also, for the same reason ( unless you have a relative with a garage) you should do most of the labor yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 11:35 PM

From my experience, if it was the timing chain, it wouldn't start or go anywhere! At least when ours went out on a Ford Escort, that was the case. I was driving along and it just stopped. Nothing would make it do anything until they hauled it to the mechanic who had to put in a new timing chain/belt.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 11:48 PM

mg, does it run badly in wet weather, but okay in dry weather? Does it run well when warmed up, not so well when cold (first thing in the morning)? If so, there could be a simple and inexpensive fix for your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 03:25 AM

Try pumping the gas pedal a couple of times before you switch on... but be careful not to flood the engine. We had a Yugo that had the same sort of trouble.

Little aside here: When I took my first driving lessons, I always started in a 'warm' car. When I tried to start our car from 'cold', I could never do it. My instructor (who was a bit of a git), had never thought to tell me how to start a 'cold' car. I stalled the Yugo many times before I learned the correct amount of pumps (twice on good days, 4-5 when it was cold outside).

It may also be general crap in your fuel tank or hoses that settles to the bottom overnight, so clogs the feed when you start up again. Once it's been running for a while, the crap slooshes round with the rest of the gunk and flows properly.

Sorry if 'crap', 'slooshes' and 'gunk' is too technical for you - although I can fix a few minor problems and identify more, I still tend to use 'blondespeak' when referring to the infernal combustion engine.

Otherwise, don't let me near it - I've stalled an automatic car and that's nigh on impossible!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:08 AM

John J @ 6:14PM... The problem is going to be either sparks or juice, you need to decide!

Cheapest way to start..... do what Jonn said for spark (a water mist from a spray bottle on the spark plug wires is a good idea too.) For juice, start with a can of carbeurator cleaner/can of injector cleaner as the case may be.

Sometimes, the cleaners just won't be enough to solve the problem, but they might point you in the right direction.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: JennyO
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:14 AM

If it has a choke that is the most likely culprit. If it is fuel injected, it's a sensor.

I'd go with what Kendall said here as the most likely scenario. The fact that it improves as it warms up suggests that this is very likely.

A couple more ideas that haven't been mentioned yet, all of which have caused me problems from time to time -

I had intermittent problems with an '82 Holden which used to stall at lights. It turned out to be the ignition module.

I don't think anyone has mentioned the fuel pump yet, or the fuel pump relay. Have they been checked?

Most recently I had a problem with my car (a Ford Fairmont) running rough when it was idling but smoothly when driving along. A whole series of things were replaced or tried - the oxygen sensor, the map sensor, cleaning the fuel injectors. What it finally turned out to be was a faulty coil - nearly new but obviously faulty. There was a weak spark, which affected the idling but didn't matter once the motor was running above a certain number of revs.

One of the most frustrating things with cars is when the problem is intermittent. Murphy's Law dictates that the problem will never manifest itself when the mechanic is looking at it, only when you are by yourself at home or stuck on the road somewhere. THEY KNOW!!

Good luck with it!

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:19 AM

Liz - and others

Good advice about pumping the accelerator before starting - for ancient cars and a few early era "economy" cars, but by sometime ca 1985 or before on most US cars there was no mechanical connection between the "accelerator pump" and the "accelerator pedal." While I'm not positive when the changeover became universal in Buicks, I rather suspect that "pumping the pedal" would have no effect on the car in question.

In cars of around the 80s time period, the "pump" was withdrawn by manifold vacuum, sucking fuel into a small cylinder and compressing a spring. When you opened the throttle by "stepping on the gas" the vacuum in the manifold decreased allowing the spring to squirt a bit of extra gas/petrol/fuel down the carbureter throat. If the engine wasn't running, there'd be no vacuum to pull the pump piston up, there's no gas in the pump cylinder, so you could rattle that pedal all you like and it would NOT do a $#@@% thing to help starting.

This change in carbureter construction began appearing, I believe, ca. 1978 - 1980 in US full-size cars, and worked its way down to smaller engines within a very few years. There probably were a few cars on which it was not used, vehicles in other countries subject to different rules and design philosopies may have differed, and aftermarket performance carbs continued being made for some time with the old mechanical pump, but most cars since about 1980 or a few years later do not benefit in any way from "pumping the pedal" before the engine is running.

If you check the drivers' manual that came with the car, for most since about 1980, they usually recommended depressing the pedal once before you start cranking, because there was a mechanical (friction) link that could cause the choke plate to "hang" wherever it was when the engine stopped running, which was usally an open position. Pressing the pedal once allowed the choke to close before you started cranking, but any additional pedal motion just got in the way of the built-in engine/fuel control systems.

It has to be noted that the 80s were very much a "transition period" when auto makers attempted to meet emission regulations with "band-aid" patches to existing parts, so there was a lot of variation from one brand to another, and for different models within a given "name." I won't quibble with anyone who finds an exception to the above.

A few years later, most vehicles went to injection fuel controls which changed the optimum procedures once again, but I don't believe that a 1985 Buick likely had dispensed with the choke plate entirely. Someone who has one might want to check that out for us.

John

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 09:21 AM

Thanks John, didn't know that about newer cars.

Sounds like there might be a leak in your pump then and you aren't achieving that vacuum needed to push.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:19 PM

Am I the only one here who thinks there might be moisture getting into the electrical system (typically, the distributor cap and the spark plug cables)? If so, the car will tend to stall in damp weather or first thing in the morning when it is still cold. It will run fine once warmed up sufficiently to evaporate the moisture.

It's not a big deal to replace a distributor cap and put on new spark plug cables.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 02:29 PM

you`re not female are you.
                      cheers Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 03:09 PM

I am definitely female and only a girl so how do you expect me to know all this? Well, way past middle aged but who is counting. It stalls basicly only in the morning, wet or dry...and it seems to be mostly morning. If I walk to work and don't really start it till about 5 p.m. I don't think I have problems. I did have the fuel line filter changed and that changed it from stalling about 4 times on the way to work to only once when I started out..but it is back to about 4 times now..in morning, wet or dry...

I am inclined to think of gunk in the fuel tank that works its way out as it stalls and starts a few times. Warming it up in the driveway does not seem to help. It is like it has to go through the stop and start process a few times..and it doesn't cooperate when I cycle through that in the driveway.

Well, I like the car so I will print out these great suggestions and discuss a few with a mechanic...I think the car wants to keep running so I will put a bit of money into it..The mechanic I used to go to really understood the car but now he has retired.

Now about the rust on the car doors...a couple of really bad rust areas..you can see daylight through them. When I lived in Canada we had rust inspections so every New Year's Eve would get this grey stuff, and smear it on our rust and pass the inspection. I can't find any here. Does anyone know of any product I could buy? I finally found something that you mix up but this was like spackle for cars and worked well. I am just trying to keep the car going..not enter it in a best of breed or anything.. Thanks for all suggestions.mg

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 03:25 PM

What?????? You smeared stuff on the rust to hide it? You gotta be kidding! ;-D

There is only one way to deal with rust on a car. Fix it! This requires bodywork (all rust removed down to the bare, clean metal), holes filled with a suitable compound, priming, and repainting) done by a professional (unless you're really good at such work yourself). I get a local guy who works out of his home to fix any early rust spots on my old car long before they get a chance to rust right through or spread very far. You cannot allow rust to spread, because once it gets going it spreads fast, like a cancer.

But, hey...if you want to go the cheapest route possible...just put duct tape over it! ;-D It'll last a few months.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:48 PM

LH says Am I the only one here who thinks there might be moisture ..., thus confirming that he didn't read the prior posts (we knew that), or lacked understanding (he could ask Chongo) and thus didn't see the preceding half dozen(?) suggestions relating to this diagnosis.

mg: There is no such thing as "only a girl." Please remove that, and related blather from your vocabulary and from your thinking.

In one past instance when one of my vehicles had similar symptoms, changing the fuel filter produced the most positive results.

I don't have service data for your car, but you - or your mechanic - may find a filter in the carburetor body where the fuel line enters, although this one usually is "omitted" on more recent models and may have disappeared on yours.

There probably will be an inline filter tucked up beside a frame member "down under" the car. This style is easiest to replace, and is most prone to getting "gunked up." The usual cause is water/sludge in the fuel tank although even with a clean tank the fuel will contain enough "bits of crud" to require eventual filter replacement. If the filter is blocked enough to prevent full fuel flow on startup, stalling when engine rpm drops back to idle is common. Most such filters have a "bypass" that allows some fuel to pass even if the filter element is seriously plugged, and after you've run enough fuel through to "flush" it, it opens up a little more - but the crud "sets up" when it sits without running for a while, so the problem repeats.

A few vehicles have had a filter inside the fuel tank but usually the only in-tank thing is just a coarse "strainer" that shouldn't clog.

With the age of the car, if the filter is clogged it's a fairly normal thing, just from the amount of fuel run through it; but it is possible for a fuel tank to accumulate rather large amounts of water and some sediment. Small amounts of water can sometimes be cleared by adding a "fuel line anti-freeze" with each of a couple of tanks of gas. "Dri-gas" or many similarly named products are commonly available, and are basically just alcohol, which absorbs the water and allows it to be sucked out with the fuel as the car runs.

These "fuel additives" are very rarely effective if there's a large amoung to water in the tank, and removing what's in the tank, and replacement with clean fuel is the only remedy.

Your mechanic probably can estimate whether there's significant contamination in the tank to require cleaning by pulling a small sample of the fuel during replacement of the filter - especially easy if it's the "body rail mounted" one. If there's water, it will settle out when the sample stands for a while and will be visible.

If there is significant water in the tank, it's necessary to remove all the liquid possible from the tank, to get it out. Some shops prefer to remove the tank for cleaning but this is "major surgery," is actually rather dangerous, and isn't usually necessary (IMO). Careful draining and siphoning to get "as much as possible" usually suffices.

Water can be separated from the fuel after it's been removed from the tank, by straining through a piece of real chamois. (Lots of "chamois products" are actually synthetic and don't work for this.) The gasoline runs through, but the water doesn't. I've had no problems with returning gasoline thus filtered to the vehicle¹, but opinions vary. Some mechanics prefer to "discard" it (i.e. put it in their vehicle and sell you fresh stuff?).

¹ In one specific case, I siphoned 7 gallons from a tank and recovered only 3 gallons of fuel. The rest was water. This was from a car only about 3 years old, - - - but the humidity is pretty high in the Seattle area ... .

If a new fuel line filter doesn't solve the problem, the "emissions systems" are probably the most likely cause for your problems in a car of this era. These include lots of "vacuum tubes" that can leak, the PCV and EGR valves, and a few other "devices" that vary between different brands and models. In the era when yours was built, PCV valve replacement was a "scheduled maintenance" item, so it probably should be replaced as part of a tuneup. Other items require identifying which ones need attention.

Electrical component "leakage," as mentioned by LH and numerous others is another possibility. If you're going to trust a service shop to do the required replacement, you probably can/should trust them to find the problem.

And once again for LH - most states I've seen that inspect for rust specifically prohibit "duct tape" patching. A usual requirement is "no daylight visible through the hole" but a permanent patch method (not quality) is required.

I've gotten by with stuffing some crumpled newspaper behind a hole, slathering on some Bondo, and filing just enough to remove the rough spots.

John

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:07 PM

Thanks..I was just joking about being a girl. I know lots and lots of girls..ooops mature women..are great mechanics. I however would not be one of them...I like the newspaper idea. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 05:18 PM

"most states I've seen that inspect for rust specifically prohibit 'duct tape' patching"

No kidding!!! Really??????? By God, it's a damn good thing I have you around to advise me on matters like this, John. ;-) Hoo, boy, you might've saved me from a serious embarrassment there. Tell me, do they also specifically prohibit driving backwards down major highways at speeds exceeding 65 mph, whilst wearing a blindfold?

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:16 PM

do they also specifically prohibit driving backwards down major highways at speeds exceeding 65 mph, whilst wearing a blindfold?

Yes LH, although neither the speed nor the blindfold appear to be required elements in the offence.

As a matter of fact, my own father was ticketed once in Oklahoma for just that offense. The forward gears went out in his "little Nash Rambler" and he was attempting to reach the nearest garage - in reverse, going in the proper direction but unfortunately pointing in the wrong direction on a one way street, and keeping up with traffic. He'd gone about 3 miles before being stopped.

The officer who stopped and ticketed him affirmed that he was not creating a hazard or interfering with traffic, but the ordinance prohibited "backing more than 50 feet" on any public street.

They called a tow truck for him, and forced him to use it for the remaining 3 blocks. (He almost made it!)

I believe I do still have the newspaper clipping, which apparently got nation-wide publication. (They were a little less plentifully supplied with news back then - ca. 1960 or so, I guess.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:02 PM

I have a couple of acres in the Oregon hills just a mile from where my parents lived at one time.

I had a Ford Mustang with a stick shift - and an emergency brake I rarely used.

One day, however, I pulled it tight - and it wouldn't release.

I drove that car backward down the road to my parents where my brother took care of the brake. Odd feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:07 PM

LOL! Great story, John. It's a shame that cops are so literal-minded, I think. They also lack humor. ;-)

Hey, I did read the whole thread, but I skimmed it pretty fast, and I definitely missed part of your longish post of 6th July at 6:03. Sorry about that. You had it covered.

I also had posted a lengthy dissertation on electrical problems myself quite early in the thread, like way back about the 4rth or 5th post...hit "submit"...and went on to other things. I was frustrated to find it had vanished into cyberspace when I checked in quite some time later. I didn't have the heart to go through it all again. This happens a lot. I post stuff and it simply vanishes. I have no idea what the problem is, but it's damned annoying, specially when I don't catch it, but find out much later.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 09:21 PM

Ebbie - Yeah, that's the problem with emergency brakes...if you don't use them much. When you finally do, the damn cable gets stuck, for lack of lubrication, and it won't release. I had that happen with a Honda Civic once.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 09:28 PM

IF - your older car has not been fitted newer-rubber-hose-lines - the new gas mixtures MAY cause them to disolve....particularly, in the area of the fuel pump.

Your auto may run.... with the newer fuel....if you check fuel-lines and filters.

Fix the lines - continue to tweak the timing - sell it FAST.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 09:32 PM

By '85 GM cars had fuel injection... No chokes... This is a "cold start" sensor... No adjustments... Just replace...

Former GM certified tech (don't ask...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 09:50 PM

Aha! You could be bang on the money there, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 10:39 PM

Someone who has one might want to check that out for us.

Personally, I think Bobert cheated on us and went out and looked at one of the three he's got sittin' in the front yard. We're just lucky one of 'em's still got an engine in it (or close-by near 'nuff) to look at.

John

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 11:03 PM

Re "goin' bassakwards:"

When Yuma sent me to Flagstaff to run some "high altitude tests" they warned me that the admin vehicles (GI grade International Scouts, early '60s models) wouldn't run worth $#@%! (exact quote) "at altitude."

Sure enough, the first time I pointed one up an off-road slope the engine started missing. After I finally reached a spot flat enough to turn around, out of curiosity I turned it around an backed it onto the next slope and the thing went up like a scared 'coon on a tree with a pack 'a hounds on his tail.

If the nose went up, the engine died, because the float bowl was on the front of the carb and spilled gas down the intake and flooded it. As long as the other end was up, it ran just fine.

I did get back to Yuma a month later with a purple bruise that ran up the arm from elbow to armpit and back down my side almost to waist level, from leanin' out the window to see what I was backing over most of the time I was on the hill, but didn't have a bit of trouble with my Scout "not running at altitude."

Our photographer managed to burn out a clutch on his Scout when he got stuck and flipped on the four wheel drive, but forgot to engage the front axle hubs; and we broke an axle (which only left 7 to run on) on the truck we were testing, but it was sort of a fun trip (except for the headaches from "doing physical labor" at 11,000' MSL when acclimated to Yuma at near zero elev.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: JennyO
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 11:20 PM

By '85 GM cars had fuel injection... No chokes... This is a "cold start" sensor... No adjustments... Just replace...

Yes - seems likely. But that was what we thought when my car was hard to start, idled rough at the lights, and ran like a dream the rest of the time. We replaced two sensors, but it made no difference. In my case it turned out to be an almost new coil that had only been replaced a couple of months earlier, which was only giving a weak spark. I'd have put money on it being a fuel problem, but it wasn't.

Your problem seems a bit different to mine, because with all the problems I was having, my car never actually stalled - just sounded like it was about to. The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking something to do with the fuel pump. Sometimes they get weak and although they are sorta pumping they are not pumping well.

As far as rust repairs go, you obviously want to do something cheap and cheerful that will keep it on the road a bit longer without spending much money. I'm usually in that position with cars, although I'm hoping for a longer life with my present one, which fortunately doesn't seem to be showing any signs of rust yet.

I used to be married to a spraypainter/panelbeater, so I picked up quite a few useful bits of info from watching him. He always had old cars and was always working on them. Since the divorce, I've not had much money (had even less when I was married) and always had to battle to keep a car on the road. I've had quite a few cars that needed patch up jobs at registration time so they would pass the inspection, so I learned to do my own rust repairs.

These were not meant to be a proper fix, and were not strictly legal, but they did the job of passing rego. The only rust they were really strict about was in structural parts of a car, where there was a safety issue. As long as there was no OBVIOUS rust, it was okay. I'm familiar with the crumpled up newspaper scenario - even a rag, and sometimes a bit of mesh across the hole. One of my cars (an old '74 Galant) really was that bad. I managed to register that car three years in a row by patching it up, and by the time I had finished and painted it, it looked pretty presentable. You could pick it if you looked close - it was not meant to fool potential buyers, but it was good enough for registration purposes. I ended up selling it for a few hundred dollars when the opportunity to buy a better one came up.

The stuff you mentioned that you mix up - the 'spackle for cars' is the thing you need - body filler. It comes with a tube of stuff which activates the setting process when you mix them, so you have to use it within a few minutes before it sets, while it's soft and pliable. It's a good idea to roughen up the surface of the area to give it a 'key' before putting it on. When it has set, you can sand it to make it smooth. I got an orbital sander, which definitely paid for itself for the number of times I used it, but if you don't have one you can just get sandpaper and sand it by hand - it's just harder work. The orbital sander makes the job so much easier. Start with rougher sandpaper, and work down to a smoother one. The stuff we used here in Oz is called 'wet and dry' and comes in a number of different grades. The higher the number, the finer the paper.

If you can paint the area, it will look a lot more convincing. If there are windows or trim or doorhandles etc nearby you have to cover those bits with masking tape or tape and newspaper so they don't get overspray on them. Here in Oz (I'm assuming you could get the same thing where you are) There is a range of spray paint in cans made in the manufacturer's colours for particular makes and models of cars. You should be able to look up the right colour for your car. They also have primer in cans that you put on first. Then two or three thin coats of the colour. The trick is to put it on thin so it doesn't run, and wait between coats. I got quite good at it after a while. The old Galant was a metallic green, and metallics are harder to blend in, but I was pretty happy with the result.

More recently I did some rust repairs around the windows of an '82 Holden Commodore I had, good enough for it to pass several years in a row. A series of mechanical failures were what killed that car. It became uneconomical to keep going with it.

Hope all this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:57 PM

How many thousand miles on the vehicle? What engine 6 or 8?

150,000 or more. Replace the timing chain pronto!!!! (300UK) or you might be looking at (1200UK) to replace valves etc.

Consult the net auto-forums for your Make,Model,Year so you can go to a mechanic without options more than money.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 11:01 PM

A friend with no money, and no job....offered to clean the SHOP windows, (inside and out)floor, sweep, mop, dust, clean the toilets, polish a 1940 Chevy....for the cost of his bill... 200 US......8 hours unskilled labor for 2 hours skilled.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 04:27 PM

John in Kansas -

You are easily the best 'handyman' on Mudcat. You seem to have a solution for all problems. I know you have certainly helped me with yourideas. Can I borrow your brain for awhile? I need to do a kitchen and bathroom renovation that requires plumbing expertise, electrical know-how, carpentry, tiling and flooring. Everyone is busy working on the Olympics and I need help sooner than later. My talent stops at designing.

How did you get so smart?

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 04:49 PM

Ahhhhh, John...

Close but not me but back in Wes Ginny there was this guy in the mountain who everyone jus' called "Crazy Eddie"... Well, this dude had 'bout 10 GM beaters surroundin his house like in a hedge row... BTW, he also was a Vietnam vet and would occasionally get a hold of a few hundred quarter sticks and throw them out of his house like hand grenades 'bout one every two minutes... The cops didn't come back in there much and noone really wanted to p.o. Crazy Eddie so everyone just tunred the radio up until he ran outta quarter sticks...

JennyO... There is something called an "idle silenoid" on fuel injected cars and this regulates the mixture od gas and air when the car is idlin'... Weak coil can do the same thing but usually when you have a weak coil the car won't start and even if it does it won't run right at any rpm range... I probably would have checked the silenoid 1st... But I'm gald you got it running okay with a new, new coil...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 10:44 PM

dainovan -

Unfortunately, the part of the solution that I lack for all the stuff falling apart around my own home is the funds for the parts and the energy to "get down and do it all."

I may have a significant contribution toward the car thing though. My own '95 Chev has been having some misfire and stalling problems occasionally, so the whole thread here has had lots of "familiar points."

This afternoon I made a run for provisions (including a couple of "routine maintenance" parts for the vehicle). When I went into the store at the last stop it was beginning to look just a little grey. When I came out, it was beginning to shower. Two blocks down the street, it was raining so hard that the wipers wouldn't leave enough of a track on the windshield to see approaching headlights at 50 feet, so I pulled off to one side.

As soon as I hit the first 5" deep puddle, the engine died. Since the engine was warm, it would "dry out" and restart after a couple of minutes, but at the next puddle - instant death.

After the seventh restart (and about 1.2 miles progress), the battery was beginning to get a little low, so I called Lin to warn her to get her britches on in case I had to have her come after me. Three stalls and two restarts later, I called again and suggested she come and tow me home.

The third restart did come, and I managed to drive it home with her following; and of course by the time we got there the sun was shining as it went below the horizon.

Diagnosis - I have a strong suspicion that I've got some really shitty electrical junk under the doghouse (it's a van, so getting to the engine costs more in labor than fixing anything that's in there). Ignition module etc replaced not long ago, but probably is the most likely suspect, although rotten spark plug wires and such are probably in there too.

But it's not supposed to rain again until ...

John

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:48 AM

Ah John, you're magic.

A couple of asides. Many cars around 85 in Oz had steel timing chains and sprockets. When these wore, they did so gradually and the engine just got rougher and rougher but would go for surprisingly long times. Since then, most timing "chains" have been notched "belts" of fibre and these are the ones that need to be replaced every 100,000 km no matter how well the motor's running. I discovered this in a Ford van I'd bought second hand; I stopped at an intersection and the motor just died. A similar situation in my Subaru had me tossed as the belt was only 75,000km old; it was also one of a pair and the other still worked. Well, a little bit.

Being a person who's had to routinely drive long distances I'm also aware of the traps when most of your driving is for short distances that don't allow the motor to run for any length of time at its proper operating temperature. Condensation doesn't just occur in the petrol tank, it can also occur in the sump. You check the oil level at the start of the trip and it's OK but, after you've run it for an hour or so, the level has dropped alarmingly because all the condensation has been evaporated by the longer duration of high temperatures.

Back to stalling when cold. Just outside my entrance the road to town climbs a couple of hundred metres over a kilometre or so. If I started before dawn, the Subaru would occasionally stall about half way up; I couldn't figure out anything as 'wrong' as, if I let it roll back down to the entrance and tried to start it it would generally go OK. Now, my grandfather's 1926 Rugby had this problem ( and also, like John's example, would go up anything in reverse) because the petrol was gravity-fed from the tank to the motor but I figured this wouldn't apply to a 1988 Subaru. The mechanic told me that it was just a little out of tune, enough so that the metal of the engine block and carburettor area was cold enough (at that time of day and before the motor had warmed up properly) to prevent the fuel-air mixture working properly. Tuning fixed it, as did letting the motor run for a few minutes before tackling the hill.

Cheer, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:59 AM

Backward driving - so if you stopped every 50 feet would, that have made it legal? Or is it 50 feet a day?

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:43 PM

If he'd stopped every fifty feet, McGrath, they'd have given him a ticket for obstructing traffic--they get you comin' and goin'--

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 06:54 PM

When we were very young a mate of mine who lived in Heidelberg (Melbourne) had a Standard Vanguard that did a rear wheel bearing while he was in Camberwell, about 6 miles from home. He found that, while he couldn't drive forward he could get it going in reverse. It being after midnight, he drove it all the way in reverse. The only problem was the lack of airflow over the radiator while groaning up the Burke Rd hill; it boiled and he had to wait for it to cool enough to keep going.

It only took him three hours to get home. No cops, however. Although the rule in Victoria then was you were allowed to reverse "a reasonable distance"; he regarded getting home to his own bed fitted that ctiterion.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 09:23 AM

My Fiat 128 once snapped the clutch cable - lucky none of the traffic lights stayed red in front of me long enough to cause problems - I was able to get home - also lucky it was not peak hours traffic...

You can start a car in first gear, you know - it's exciting.... so is stopping... :-)

Think 'double declutching' without using a clutch.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 05:56 PM

fairy liquid in the petrol tank,or boot polish instead of oil may do the job.Good luck with your stalling

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 12:44 AM

Foolestroupe, you've just reminded me of how I practised and practised on a Landrover (while in the CMF) until I could change from any gear in either ratio into any other gear in either ratio without using the clutch. Listening to both the engine noise and the tyre noise was critical to success, but the, I WAS used to singing harmonies and picking tunes up by ear.

And I still routinely double declutch in some situations even though most cars I have driven in the last 20 years have perfectly good synchromesh.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 10:59 AM

Rowan, even though being involved in amatuer motor sport prior, I didn't mean that the process of getting home was enjoyable... :-0

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 05:30 AM

Bobert -

It occurs to ask: "Did Crazy Eddie have a backhoe."

He sound like the kind of guy who might have instigated the old saw:

"Never Piss Off A Redneck With a Backhoe."

Or maybe it was Cletus.

John

Subject: RE: BS: What could make my beautiful car stall?
From: GUEST,sinky
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 11:05 AM

cheese in the distributer