BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney

Subject: BS: Olberman to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM

Powerful speech here from Mr. Olberman...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGq7mqkDJ7E&mode=related&search=

This is for folks who want to pressure congress to co-sponsor Resolution 333 (Kucinich's articles of Impeachment against Dick Cheney).

http://actforchange.workingassets.com/campaign/impeach_cheney

Subject: RE: BS: Olberman to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:29 PM

It's been covered Carol. Trust me, you won't make many friends around here with that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Olberman to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:35 PM

Did it have its own thread, or was it posted in an existing thread? And were both in there, or just the Olberman?

(Reason I'd like to know is because I did a search and didn't find anything.)

Subject: RE: BS: Olberman to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:42 PM

Trust me, you won't make many friends around here with that one.

LOLOLOL

Oh, you ain't seen nothin. You should have been around here about a year ago during the bombing of Lebanon.

LOL

The friends I still have here, I figure will probably always be my friends. Those that ain't, ain't.   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Olberman to Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:44 PM

It is quite evident, JL, that you listened to perhaps the first minute of it- had you gone farther you would recognize that, oh, yes, indeed, we agree with him.

Thanks for reminding us, Carol C.

Subject: RE: BS: Olberman to Bush/Cheney
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:54 PM

Bush and Cheney will not be gone soon enough. It is great that people (like Olberman) who have the opportunity and the wherewithal are speaking out. But the order of impeachment has to be Cheney then Bush. Just imagine Cheney as your President. That is enough to gag a maggot.

Subject: RE: BS: Olberman to Bush/Cheney
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 01:15 PM

I posted links in a couple of threads as well as the full text. It bears repeating.

Subject: RE: BS: Olberman to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 01:18 PM

Heh...

Jim Lad, I've just now read the thread you appear to be referring to (or at least the relevant part of it). I think you brought that one on yourself (sorry to say, because in many respects, I agree with you). It's just that you didn't pick your audience very well, and you made too many assumptions about those whom you were addressing.

You might find it productive to do a search on people's posting histories before making those kinds of broad sweeping generalizations about people. You have many more allies here in this forum than you seem to realize.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:07 PM

Right, Carol. I think that if Jim had, as you said, searched people's posting history here on Mudcat, he would have disabused himself of his apparent misconceptions and would not have made the mistake he made in the "Scooter—Free" thread. It certainly isn't difficult to figure out who here would most definitely not have supported and voted for Bush. The vast majority. In fact, of those who post here, you could probably count the people who did vote for Bush on the fingers of one hand. Mudcat is definitely not representative of the razor-thin 50 – 50 split in the American electorate. To accuse most or all of the Mudcat folks of supporting Bush and then lying about voting for him is a guaranteed method of alienating oneself. Sure, somebody must have voted for him, but you sure as hell aren't going to find many of them around here!

Jim is one helluva fine musician and singer and an intelligent guy, and I'm sure he has a lot to contribute in many areas.   I'd hate to see him persist in the misconception for two reasons:   first, what he said is just plain wrong, and second, I think his heart's in the right place and in his understandable disgust with the current administration, he just misread the crew here.

I agree with everything Keith Olbermann said, and I'm certain that the vast majority of Mudcatters either have, or will, respond to it with enthusiastic shouts of "Right On!!"

I've signed the "Impeach Cheney" petition. I'm not sure it will go anywhere, but I hope it does. I think it would greatly improve America's prestige in the world (which has slid badly in the past few decades and has taken one helluva hit lately) if the American people rose up and started throwing those Bozos out of office. We'll see. In the meantime, as patriotic Americans, it's our duty to make sure that nothing like the Bush Catastrophe ever happens again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:58 PM

Oh, and it's "Olbermann" with two "enz."

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 06:18 PM

I listen to Olbermann 'almost' everyday he's on...(well, until he get to the silly stuff about celebrities. ;>)

He has clear ways of making his points, and VERY intelligent guests whom he allows to speak, instead of just asking them 2 minute questions to get a 7 second answer, like ummm....Wolf Blitzer.

Olbermann is one of the few liberalish commentators to offset the hoards of conservatives...who, with slanted rhetoric, get so much attention. I wish they'd give him a whole hour of serious commentary...

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 01:27 PM

I see some sound reasoning and insight in all of your contributions. What I have offered you however, is a view from the outside. Regardless of how I feel about Americans personally, I have taken this opportunity to let you see what the rest of the world is thinking/saying.
Impolite of me? Probably but where has politeness got us so far?
None of my business? Not from where I stand and for two reasons....
1) You may not take Lou Dobbs seriously but many do and he has in the past, made some pretty inconsiderate remarks regarding what he thinks America should do to Canada. An American invasion/hostile take over is not inconceivable to most Canadians.
2) I am your friend and your neighbour. If your friends wont tell you, who will.
Preaching to the converted? Yes & no. Not just to the converted. Your country is split right down the middle. To say that only the Democrats are visiting this site is, for the want of a better word, naive. Believe me, there are plenty of Bush supporters here and given the fact that he was elected twice, the chances of any American visiting this site having voted for George Bush is actually greater than 50%.
The chances of any of them owning up to it however are much, much lower.
So Carol: Don't worry too much about my hurt feelings and having brought it on myself. I'm just fine and it would probably take any one of you about thirty seconds of meeting me in person to figure out that I have nothing to offer but friendship and most of you would probably accept it.
That "English" comment still stings a bit though.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 01:55 PM

"Believe me, there are plenty of Bush supporters here and given the fact that he was elected twice, the chances of any American visiting this site having voted for George Bush is actually greater than 50%. " Jim Lad

Percentages are valid only in the context of an entire population.

It is like saying that every sixth person in the world is Chinese so if you are sitting here with seven members of your family, one of you has got to be Chinese.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:02 PM

Jim Lad, we've been getting the view from the outside for a long, long time (several years). You're not the first person here in the Mudcat to offer us that view.

Your mistake in the other thread was your statement as fact that nobody posting to that thread was doing anything about the problem. You're not really in a position to comment on what people are or are not doing off-thread, since you simply don't have access to that information, and you come across as being pretty ignorant, as well as self-righteous and condescending, when you try to make those kinds of assertions. And I would suggest also, you come across as pretty unCanadian when you behave that way as well. I've found that most of the Canadians who behave in the way you did on the other thread are immigrants to that country from other countries.

You would have served your purpose better if you had recognized and embraced your allies instead of insulting them. That, by the way, insulting your allies, is one of the traits of the US that most of the rest of the world resents, so I figure you would make a very good USAn. ;-)


Yes, all in all, I have to say, you really would make a better USAn than Canadian.

The other problem with your posts on the other thread is that you talk like you think you understand the political system and the political process in this country, but you do not.

The system is rigged here. We do not have a democracy, and we haven't for some time now. The vast majority of us are disenfranchised on election day. My vote for president in the next election probably won't even be counted.

The candidate I will be voting for will probably not get elected, and if I use my vote for him, I will be taking my vote away from the "not Bush" candidate who has the greatest chance of winning. But from my perspective, none of the candidates of the not-Bush party who do have a chance of winning will be all that much different from the candidates of the Bush party. They will all continue the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they will all try to wage war with Iran. You are not in a position to say whether or not I am doing enough outside of the voting process to correct this situation, since you know nothing whatever about me.

BTW, if you want to verify my politicl street-cred for yourself, I invite you to read my posting history. That should help you see the ignorance of your attitudes towards Mudcatters who live in the US.

You really should consider moving here to the US. You would feel quite at home here.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:13 PM

The other thing people were giving you a hard time about, and I agree with them, is that you are pointing fingers from a position of safety at people who are currently in the trenches.

You face no risk whatever for any activism you engage in with regard to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Those of us in the US do face real risks when we do the same. I know a lady who is on a terrorism watch list (and because of this, she even has difficulty wiring money for the purpose of buying a house... she would probably have difficulty flying as well) simply because of her anti-war activism. She's a nice, middle class, middle aged lady, who hasn't got a terrorist thought or impulse anywhere in her psyche, but nevertheless, she is on a terrorist watch list. I have no idea what sort of lists I'm on, if any, because I haven't tried to fly or wire any money since 9/11.

You left your native land because you found the government there to be oppressive. You did nothing to correct the problems in that country. You just left.

We who still live in the US are here facing, and are profoundly affected by the problems in this country, and most of us who post here in the Mudcat are actively participating in efforts to correct the problems here, even despite the personal risk that comes with that because of our own repressive government. You really do come across as hypocritical when you criticize others for something of which you yourself are guilty and they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:15 PM

"I invite you to read my posting history" ... I am not Canadian and probably know as much about the American, Canadian, British, Australian & Irish political systems as the average American, Canadian, British, Australian & Irish electorates do.

"You really should consider moving here to the US. You would feel quite at home here." I'm sure that I would absolutely love it. From what I've seen, it's a great place. My favourite so far.... the rolling hillsides of Oregon.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:31 PM

I should probably rephrase that one bit...

If you want to verify my political and activist street-cred for yourself, I invite you to read my posting history.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:33 PM

Not a problem, Carol. My comments are and have been aimed at the inactive lurkers, all along.
Regards.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:37 PM

Ummm - let's not forget that Bush got fewer than half the votes, both times...
I'm all for getting a woman president without an election. Let's impeach'm all.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:46 PM

My comments are and have been aimed at the inactive lurkers, all along.

That's good to know. You will probably get a lot less backlash for posts like those in the other thread if you make sure that you are very clear about who your comments are aimed at in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:59 PM

Oregon is my home state and the "rolling hillsides" were my natural habitat. (The peaked, snowcapped mountains of Alaska have drawn me away)

Oregon is a land of extremes, politically speaking. The Oregon I love is innovative and imaginative, open and embracing, tolerant and farseeing. But there is also the repressive, intolerant, narrow and judgmental side.

A lot of how one feels depends on where one lives. Oregon has such diverse geography-from coast to fertile valley to mountains to high desert to plains - that just saying one is from the state doesn't say a whole lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 03:00 PM

I made a judgement call and I can live with the backlash.
Just that damned "English" thing still stings though.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 03:03 PM

Ebbie: I just remember saying to Brenda, each time we go through there "Jeeze, I'll bet there's a lot of music in those hills". Catches me every time.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 03:03 PM

Nah... you're not English. You're not subtle enough for that. Deep down inside, you're really a 'red-blooded Amurican'. You just haven't realized it yet.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 05:07 PM

'Frank from Toledo', sometimes signed as 'Francy' is a Mudcatter. Toledo is a small town in the green hills inland from Newport, Oregon, on the coast. He hosts a music club that draws performers from all over.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 05:11 PM

Good to know. Next time we're down we'll try and take in some folk stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:11 PM

There's also an ongoing Friday night acoustic jam in an old school gymnasium outside Dallas (note NOT The Dalles), Oregon. Dallas is about 15 miles from Salem, the capital, and the gym is three miles from it on a two-lane road to Kings Valley.

Interesting how it began. When I first began going to the jams they were held in a country store, with performers sitting on bales of stuff.

Then the founders- Joe, his brother Mac (? I've forgotten), Leslie and Joe's ex-wife Sally - found a venue, Guthrie Park, up the road. The only remaining building from an old country school, the gym is a three room structure in a grove of oak trees.

Evntually, the owner held an auction for the property: the building and an acre or two around it.

Sally's bid was the winning one.

The group built a stage and there are church pews for the listening audiences.

It is still held on Friday nights, starting at 7:00. Performers come from all over, and some of them are very good.

The last I knew, each week there are 25-30 jammers and about the same number in the audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 03:25 PM

In case anyone is interested, here's article about Bush's commutation of Libby.

Progressive Daily Beacon Opinion Piece; July 10th, 2007 | Day 191 | Week 28

Commuting Scooter: Laws Don't Apply to the Privileged Class
A. Alexander, July 3rd, 2007

Scooter Libby received his 'get out of jail free card' from Mister Bush. On the same day another disgraced Neoconservative, Paul Wolfowitz, who had used his position at World Bank to enrich his girlfriend, found a new job at the Republican-Corporate think tank, The American Enterprise Institute. Indeed, it was a great day for Neoconservative criminals.

Conservative and Republican apologists continued to peddle the old lie that no laws had ever been broken and therefore; as Mister Bush claimed in his commutation statement, Libby's sentence was too harsh. No laws were broken, they claim, but a jury found Mister Scooter guilty of something like four felony counts.

Now, of course, the Republicans, when they say no laws were broken, are referring to the crime Libby tried to cover up - the crime the administration committed when they treasonously leaked the identity of an undercover CIA agent. Republicans continue to repeat the lie that Valerie Plame, the intelligence agent at the heart of Libby's criminal activity, wasn't undercover and therefore; Cheney and Libby leaking her identity to the press wasn't a crime.

-snip-

Click http://www.progressivedailybeacon.com/more.php?page=opinion&id=1595 for more of this article.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 04:09 PM

Good article, Azizi. I hope people use the link and read the rest of it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 04:58 PM

Perhaps you stopped deliberately where you did, Azizi but I'd like to make sure everyone reads the next paragraph:

"The problem with that lie is that the CIA has, on more than one occasion, stated that Plame was still in protected status. Also, the Republican Libby liars conveniently omit the fact that it was the CIA that had requested an investigation into her name being leaked to the press. Oh, and, too, Republicans act as though the prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, wasn't himself a Republican that had been appointed by a Republican. But honestly, it doesn't matter."

Thanks, Azizi.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:35 PM

...there are plenty of Bush supporters here and given the fact that he was elected twice, the chances of any American visiting this site having voted for George Bush is actually greater than 50%.

Pardon me for stating the obvious, Jim, but this is a folk music forum. I don't know how things are where you're from or where you live now, but in the US the folk music community is composed predominately of liberal, anti-war Democrats. If this were strictly a blues forum, you'd probably find the ratio pretty close to the 50% Bush-supporters you mention, and if it were a bluegrass forum you'd probably find well over 50%.

But it's not. It's the Mudcat, and if your looking for that mythical Average American, he's not here.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:50 PM

You're right, of course.
I did a quick search for "Bluegrass"

The Digitrad Results
0.8511 - SILVER DEW ON THE BLUEGRASS TONIGHT
0.7961 - BIG TRAIN (FROM MEMPHIS)
0.7742 - SMOKEY THE BEAR
0.7742 - BLOOD OF THE LAMB
0.7742 - WE NEED A LOT MORE OF JESUS
0.7742 - UNCLE PEN
0.7742 - TEAR MY STILLHOUSE DOWN
0.7742 - TALK IT ALL OVER WITH HIM
0.7742 - STRING BAND DISASTER
0.7742 - LITTLE MAGGIE
0.7742 - PEACH PICKING TIME IN GEORGIA
0.7742 - ORANGE BLOSSOM SPECIAL
0.7742 - OLD HOME PLACE
0.7742 - OH DEATH (2)
0.7742 - JIMMY BROWN THE NEWSBOY
0.7742 - THE MAN IN THE MIDDLE
0.7742 - KENTUCKY WALTZ
0.7742 - JOURNEY TO MY SAVIOUR'S SIDE
0.7742 - FOGGY MOUNTAIN TOP
0.7742 - FESTIVAL LOVE
0.7742 - ENGINEER'S SONG
0.7742 - I WILL MEET YOU IN THE MORNING
0.7742 - THE HOMESTEAD ON THE FARM
0.7742 - CORA IS GONE
0.7742 - FREEBORN MAN
0.7742 - FORT DIX STOCKADE
0.7742 - THE FORGOTTEN SOLDIER BOY
0.7742 - THE BIBLE'S TRUE
0.7742 - BAREFOOT NELLIE
0.7742 - ASHES OF LOVE
0.7742 - AMAZING GRASS

The Forum Results (1 to 50 of 6928)

Maybe you'd like to explain your logic to these folks

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:56 PM

What folks? All I see is that about 30 songs out of the almost 70,000 in the DT have been tagged with a "bluegrass" classification by someone. Well over 300 have been tagged with a "train" classification. Does that make this a train forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:06 PM

Jim, perhaps you are unaware of it, but Bluegrass consists not of a specific list of songs or instrumental pieces, but a style in which those pieces are performed. You can list "Bluegrass songs" until you're purple in the face, and it means nothing. If "Little Maggie" or "Oh, Death" is sung by, say, a solo singer with no fiddle, no mandolin, no 5-string banjo, and no Martin Dreadnaught in sight, but accompanied, say, by a parlor guitar, or a dulcimer, or simply sung without accompaniment, it is not a "Bluegrass song." I have heard Scottish ballads done by Bluegrass groups, and considered—at the time, for the duration of the performance—as being a Bluegrass song. But I don't think Sir Walter Scott or Francis James Child would agree that the ballad is henceforth and forever stamped as a "Bluegrass song."

Like probably the vast majority here on Mudcat, I am urban born and raised and not brought up in any particular folk tradition. I am interested in, and sing, a whole variety of songs:   English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, American mountain songs, cowboy songs, railroad songs, prison songs, sea chanteys, love songs, many, many ballads, and—name a category and I probably know at least a few songs in that category. And that includes a number of songs that some folks might classify as "Bluegrass," but just because some bluegrass groups may do them does not mean that they are exclusively, or even mainly bluegrass songs. I will wager to say that, although there are some here on Mudcat who specialize in certain types of songs (a lot of Mudcatters are especially big on sea songs), Mudcat mostly consists of singers and musicians whose musical interests are as wide as mine, and quite probably wider.

Just to see what I would come up with, I tried a few searches on other categories and came up with huge lists. Try it. You'll see what I mean. Most songs on these lists can also be found on two, or three, or a half-dozen other lists as well. So I'm afraid your list of "Bluegrass songs" establishes nothing.

As I said, Bluegrass is a particular style of singing and playing, not a specific list of songs.

Jim, as far as the position you are trying to defend here is concerned, I'm afraid you're like Wile E. Coyote, standing in mid-air about twenty feet out from the canyon rim. The only reason you're not hurtling toward the canyon floor is that you just haven't yet looked down and discovered that you are standing on nothing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:28 PM

Jim, to illustrate a point:

On "Prairie Home Companion," Garrison Keillor's radio show (Minnesota Public Radio, but broadcast over most NPR affiliates every week), he has a running gag. It's based on the late-night infomercials hawking some group's CDs and it consists of Keillor making like the hard-sell announcer and a couple of people playing Bluegrass style—hyper-fast three-finger picking on a 5-string banjo and at least two people singing through their noses. They sing a whole disparate list of song-snippets, from Broadway show tunes, to songs from Disney movies, to operatic arias, to lullabies, all at the same fast, hard-driving tempo and "high-lonesome" singing style. The routine is pretty funny. What makes it funny is the total inappropriateness of the song/style combination and the fact that every song sounds almost exactly like every other song.

It probably makes a lot of Bluegrass musicians writhe. But it more than illustrates the point that a huge number of different kinds of songs can be done "Bluegrass style."

Doesn't make them Bluegrass songs, though.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:50 PM

And the reason we need to establish that this is not a bluegrass forum is because, as I alluded above, the typical Mudcatter has different values than the typical bluegrasser. I'm not saying that all bluegrass musicians and fans share a common set of values, only that on average bluegrassers tend be more conservative, patriotic, religious and, yes, Republican than most of the folks who frequent the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:40 AM

Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 03:57 AM

Don: I'm familiar with the Garrison Keillor piece. My wife enjoys it more than I do. I am wondering though if you got the point that Bee-dubya-ell was making.

Bee-dubya-ell: The Forum Results shown were the first 50 of 6928 Blue Grass threads. Not 30 Bluegrass threads out of 7.000 others.
I can be wrong for so many different reasons and enjoy debating them, just not the reason you gave.
I can't accept that Blue Grass players are more likely to vote Republican. That's stereo typing.
I'm letting this one go.
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:08 AM

I'm dismayed to see that a couple of people have taken JimLad's latest bait (of perplexing, illogical blind alleys) that he's dangling in front of the Forum.

Having perused JimLad's posts for some time, I have come to think that not only would he make a very good "USAn", but that he would fit right in with the Bush Administration. He insults his allies while claiming that he's their friend and neighbor, he makes sweeping generalizations that are patently false, he defends those generalizations by citing "proof" that doesn't exist, he seems totally oblivious to his ignorance and arrogance, and he calls people "these folks"!

Don Firth apparently knows Jim as "one helluva fine musician and singer and an intelligent guy" so I'm sure that's true, but what of it? Okay, so he's talented and smart; we all know talented, smart people who annoy the bejesus out of us off-Mudcat. For that matter, Dubya is a helluva fine rancher and bird-shooter (and, I suspect, more intelligent that he lets on -- his parents are no dummies). Don has the impression that Jim has his heart "in the right place". Dubya has his convictions that he's doing the right things, too. Seems to me that both Jim and Dubya are immovably stubborn people. The difference is, the rest of us have the option of ignoring the bizarre things that Jim says.

Personally, I prefer to save my energy for refusing to ignore the bizarre things Dubya says and does, rather than expend it boxing with JimLad's shadows. Sorry, Jim, no harm intended but, as you say, this is my "view from the outside" (outside Canade, that is).

But with regard to the subject of this thread... CarolC, your links are much appreciated, as is your persistent activism. As Kat says, Olbermann's words bear repeating (till they ring from the Alaska mountains and over the "rolling hillsides" of Oregon to the Appalachian Trail). I hope you count me among the friends you have around here!

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:36 AM

So we're all agreed then.
Thank You Sharon, for your summation..
Kind Regards.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:41 AM

Oh, and, um, Jim, Bee-dubya-ell didn't say "30 Bluegrass threads", he said "30 songs" -- you know, the ones you listed under "The DigiTrad Results". Actually there are 31 there; not that anyone's counting... :^)

Underneath that DigiTrad list, of course, you pasted the reference to the Forum results "(1 to 50 of 6928)". Thank you for not pasting those 50 into this thread! Those results have nothing to do with Bee-dubya-ell's statement about bluegrass forums, anyway; it's just more obfuscation.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 10:29 AM

I just saw Olberman's speech. Powerful stuff. Thanks for posting it, CarolC. I can't imagine what it would take for me to ignore such a speech, if it was aimed at me. But politicians seem to let stuff like that roll off them like water off a duck's back. As if the basic ability to feel shame has been removed from them, and been replaced with a skill for rationalising such attacks behind the belief that they are right anyway, and sod the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 10:30 AM

Thanks, SharonA...

I hope you count me among the friends you have around here!

Of course! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 12:26 PM

"Having perused JimLad's posts for some time, I have come to think that not only would he make a very good "USAn", but that he would fit right in with the Bush Administration. He insults his allies while claiming that he's their friend and neighbor, he makes sweeping generalizations that are patently false, he defends those generalizations by citing "proof" that doesn't exist, he seems totally oblivious to his ignorance and arrogance, and he calls people "these folks"! Sharon A

Thanks for encapsulating it, Sharon. 'As for me and my house", I won't rise again.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 01:24 PM

Sigh!

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 01:59 PM

You know, I've asked and answered questions to the best of my ability. Agreed with some, disagreed with others followed some links and offered some.
I've written here and on the "Scooter" thread, without any real emotion. If you have been reading that into my writings then your mistaken.
I have done all of this (against the advice of friends here on Mudcat) without ever calling anyone names or reducing the dialogue to personal attacks.
Don, Kat, Carol and one or two others who disagree with me, have managed to air those differences in the form of debate. They know that I appreciate and enjoy that.
Yet, every time one of you calls me something, the rest of you have to jump in with your own version on "That's a good un".
Ebbie: You stooped lower than anyone when you compared me to a dog with worms, dragging his arse on a carpet.
Why anyone would choose to align himself/herself with you after that comment, is entirely beyond me.
If this really is the Kerry side then I would have to suggest that Mr. Bush was in fact, the lesser of two evils.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:08 PM

sigh

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:28 PM

You know, I think we're all, basically, on the same side here. Why don't we get back to discussing what Keith Olbermann said and turn our fire on the real target?

This whole discussion reminds me of someone's definition of the Democratic Party and why it's far less effective politically than it could be:   "A firing squad standing in a a circle!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 02:53 PM

And Jim in the middle.
I'm afraid the debate ended some time ago. All that is left are a few stragglers waiting to see who can deliver the best insult.
I have learned much about the American way of thinking, here and will keep it in mind for a long time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 03:12 PM

So you're going to lump every single one of more than three hundred million people and the way they "think" into a single category for you to make value judgements about, Jim? I think maybe Sharon was right about you after all. Or maybe someone else was right about you and you really are a troll. You're the one who diverted this thread from its original subject with a rather spectacular bit of dishonesty. I, personally, would prefer it if the thread could return to its intended subject, but I really don't see that happening if you continue to post on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 03:31 PM

I think I've got the right Olbermann report here.

Those who'd like to look carefully at what was said, and perhaps even to make citation to this item, may want to note that there is a transcript (text) available:

Olbermann: Bush, Cheney should resign

The transcript omits an introductory reference to the commutation of Libby's sentence, but otherwise appears to have "the meat of the matter" accurately.

The "original?" MSNBC video is also accessible at the above web page.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 03:33 PM

I'm tellin' ya, guys, don't rise to his bait!

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 03:36 PM

(JimLad's bait, that is)

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 03:49 PM

Sadly Carol, I think that Mr Olbermann's speech has been forgotten all too quickly and not just on this thread. Still, you're right let's give it another go. In the meantime however, you will note that Sharron is still yapping at my heels, never having read the threads nor contributing to them. I'll have a tough time accepting anything anyone has to say as long as you all keep condoning that kind of behavior.

I asked previously if Mr. Olbermann is known for ranting or if this is a measured response by him to a situation that will actually bear some fruit. Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 03:49 PM

The entire text of Olbermann's piece is posted in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:12 PM

Yes, I see it all clearly now, Jim. I have deleted you from my myspace friends. There's a certain level of despicableness that I just don't have time for in my life. I'm finished communicating with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:33 PM

Then I'll go out where I came in.

I am sick and tired of hearing Americans say. "Don't blame me. I didn't vote for him".
I just don't believe you any more.

Now you can all get back to the healthy sport of bombing helpless nations for their oil and blaming Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 04:58 PM

Just for the record, I've never met JimLad so, unless he's invaded the computer I'm using, he has no way of knowing what I have read and what I have not.

Note that he has used a metaphor to compare me to a dog after (a) telling Ebbie that she had "stooped lower than anyone" by comparing him to a dog; and (b) claiming that he's not "ever... reducing the dialogue to personal attacks." Yet another example of his M.O.

Jim, I look forward to reading more of your comments about music, French toast, etc. But the Mudcat political discussions seem to bring out your dark side. If you're really leaving the political threads for good -- which I doubt -- then don't let that particular door hit you in the Cheney.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 06:16 PM

Well, I tried, but the task was too great. I give Jim's last post all the attention that it merits:

[Sound of toilet flushing]

You're on your own, Jim.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 10:50 PM

"I am sick and tired of hearing Americans say. "Don't blame me. I didn't vote for him".
I just don't believe you any more."

I'm American.

I didn't

Do you believe me?

Subject: RE: BS: Trolling behavior -- don't encourage it!
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 11:49 PM

TIA, don't encourage JimLad! He's exhibiting behavior here and in the Scooter Libby thread that is known in Forum-speak as "trolling" behavior... which he hasn't exhibited in non-political discussion threads, so I hesitate to label him as a troll.

But troll or not, he is not interested as much in debating the topic of said political thread discussion as in baiting people (tempting them to react to his statements emotionally rather than rationally). When he gets an emotional reaction, he feels rewarded. When he gets a rational reaction -- any attempt to treat his statements in a reasonable manner -- his reaction is to post a more irrational, unreasonable statement in order to increase others' frustration level so that they will finally react emotionally (at which point he again feels rewarded).

As much as he may claim to desire to discuss the topic, he doesn't spend nearly as much time and energy on the topic as he does on the other discussers. He doesn't defend his position on the topic; he offends in an attempt to jockey for position emotionally over others (or, at least, he feels that he achieves a superior position when others become angry or leave the discussion in frustration, though in truth he ends up at the bottom because he has debased himself).

The best way to treat such trolling behavior is to ignore it, just as you would ignore tantrum behavior in a small child. The troll (or, in this case, part-time troll-wanna-be) will react similarly, raising his stakes in an attempt to induce others to cave in and reward his misbehavior, so one must remain strong in the face of this and refuse to pay attention to it. Eventually the troll himself will become so frustrated at the calmness and coolness around him that he will make some parting shot, and he will leave the discussion himself (as we have just seen). Don't be fooled, though; he's lurking, waiting for someone new to flare up at what he's said so he can come back to fan the flames.

So, again, please don't encourage him.

TIA, I'm guessing you've come here to discuss Keith Olbermann's speech, as I and others had done. We can have that discussion, as long as we can be strong enough to resist reacting to JimLad's outrageousness and letting the thread become his sideshow again. Okay?

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 11:54 PM

Ebbie,

Where is Wayne Morse now that we need him again? The ONLY senator to vote against the Gulf Of Tonkin resolution! That was the Oregon I was magnetized to.

I surely did love Oregon. The coast is where we settled---Depoe Bay in 1967. I started the Folk Art Shop on highway 101. There was no folk scene of any kind anywhere that was discernible in Oregon. Chicago seemed better as a place from which to secure gigs, so we headed back home to Chi-town.----- And that has made all the difference. (Blatant Thread Creep)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 12:21 AM

Another step in this thread creep dance: Art, I lived at the Coast in 1967! From 1964 through 1968 the first time (I went back in the '80s). I lived first in Gleneden Beach then in the Cutler City area and then Taft. (For others' info, the latter two are part of Lincoln City)

I like the Oregon Coast a lot and that is where I'd wish to move if I returned to Oregon. Which isn't likely. I like Juneau even better.

I agree about Wayne Morse. Morse and Justice William O. Douglas were two of my heroes. As was Governor Tom McCall.

So many heroes. So much time and and so much water under the bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: van lingle
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 04:48 PM

Excellent post on 7/11/07 at 11;49 P.M. Sharon. It would be nice to see it depersonalized and preserved as a quick link.

Subject: RE: BS: Olbermann to Bush/Cheney
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 07:31 PM

Sharon--


"...don't let that particular door hit you in the Cheney." That's just classic--you've coined a catchphrase. Wonderful!