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BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Aug 07 - 04:33 PM Oh - and we are on the second page so... Two to me too:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: katlaughing Date: 24 Aug 07 - 04:46 PM One word: DaveRwriter! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Aug 07 - 04:57 PM Thanx kat! Takat? kata? D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Amos Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:06 PM To my list above, add Cleave to brevity. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Aug 07 - 05:17 PM Right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Rapparee Date: 24 Aug 07 - 06:19 PM "Eschew longevity" says it in two words instead of three, Amos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Aug 07 - 06:38 PM A lot of it depends on who is expected to read it. Also what the subject matter is. I would write differently for a rifle magazine than I would for the "Mississippi Review." |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Aug 07 - 06:54 PM That's right. There are actually several different kinds of good writing, I should think, depending on whom one is writing for. Furthermore, styles of writing have changed greatly with the passage of time. Many of the officially "great" books of 150 to say, 300 years ago seem very long-winded by today's standards. They were written for an audience with a different mindset. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Amos Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:13 PM Rapaire: See the earlier rule: Cleave to the Anglosaxon. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Slag Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:33 PM Know your audience. Know your subject. Write the way you speak or think (the real work comes in re-vision). Seek criticism from those who are proven competent. Write all the time. When you aren't writing, read. Don't mimic other writers. Be your own person. Publish (there's nothing like it!). |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: GUEST,mg Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:41 PM doesn't cleave mean to cut something? mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:49 PM Q: "And don't start a sentence with and." Luke Capter 2 V1: And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. If it was good in the 17th century, it is still good now! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: GUEST Date: 24 Aug 07 - 07:50 PM "They were written for an audience with a different mindset." Little Hawk Not to mention a longer attention span. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: katlaughing Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:10 PM Dave Polshaw, OR: Takat (as in Taw!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Amos Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:17 PM No, in this sense it actually means to adhere to something. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Bobert Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:48 PM Finally!!! A thread that this ol' hillbilly can sink his teeth into... (Hey, Bobert, you just ended a sentencewith a preposition...) Hey, at least I din't dnagle no corpusles, 'er nuthin' important like that... But firget dangling corpusles fir just one danged minute whilst I tell you all about good writin'... First of all, way back when I was in English Comp 101, which i had started a week late due to a case of mono, I had this assistent professor whoes name I have conviently forgotten who had asked one of my fellow classmates out on a date who, BTW I ended up marryingm and this guy said that a sentence had end by the 17th word... Nope an 18 word sentence, written by Hemmingway or Wadsworth was junk... I think that was a tad on the annal side and therefore, other than the mere fact that the student he was intersted in was my new girlfriend, assured me a big ol' "F" at the end of the semester... Remember that little wiezel on Mash??? Well, this was this guy... (BTW, my first sentence contained a couple hundred or less words in it but well over the "17 Rule" that Professor Wiezle said was thwe absolut limit...) Okay, that was RULE ONE... RULE TWO is a tad harder to explainerate 'cause it has to do with "topic"... In every family in the universe there is "this" uncle... In some there also "this" aunt... And in jy family we had both a "this" uncle and a "this" aunt... You all know excatly waht I am talking about here... These folks would go on and on and on about abosutely nuthin'... There was enever a point to be made... Never a period at the end of a sentence... No, jus' no-stop blah, blah an' more blah... So RULE TWO is that don't write if yer, ahhhhh, friggin' brain dead!!! Now we come down to the nitty gritty of writin' and that is THE COMMA... When I was in high school doin' my best to maintain my D averaghe I had this lady whoes name I have conviently forgotten who said when it comes to commas "When in doubt, leave it out"??? Well, I like commas much as the next D student an' word 'round school was that she was a spinster... You know, a 61 year old virgin... Now when it comes down to RULE THREE I don't wnat it to come from a 61 year old virgin... No, I want it to come from like Racheal Welsh... But over the years I have figured out why this lady was so intent on teaching "When in doubt, leave it out..." This wasn't about grammer... This was some kinda Freudean thing... I don't know... Maybe she had some potty trainin' issues... All I know is that RULE THREE sucks... I like my commas and, by golly, I'm gonna stick 'um wherever I think they look good... So, my fellow Mudders, that's 'bout all ya' need to know 'bout writin' good... Let's do a little review here: RULE ONE: No sentences over 17 words unless a couple hundred works better... RULE TWO: Don't write nuthin' if you is a moron... RULE THREE: Don't ever believe a 61 year old virgin... Somethin is drastically wrong with these folks... Now I'd like to introduce RULE FOUR, which BTW is my own, and that is that writin' is jus talk that has been put into script and so it ain't 'bout commas, 'er jealous professors, or even moronish stuff... It's 'bout who you are and what you feel and all that kinda sappy stuff... That's my 2 cents worth and given that the phrase "2 cents worth" goes back to, ahhhhhh, maybe a hundred years and adjusted by the value of the dollar, inflation an' all them other economics stuff is prolly worth about a buck these days... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Aug 07 - 08:55 PM Yeah, Guest, you are so right that they had a longer attention span. ;-) I was thinking that, but I didn't say it. Those people grew up in a society without TV, telephones, and radios. They wrote long letters to loved ones. They read long letters that they had to wait weeks or months for, and they focused intensely on every word. They were accustomed to paying full and proper attention to one thing at at time far more than people are nowadays. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Seiri Omaar Date: 24 Aug 07 - 09:04 PM And hence why Gulliver's Travels became a literary classic. .. ... .... *shudders* God, I hate that book. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: JennyO Date: 24 Aug 07 - 11:21 PM Here's a little ditty by one of our National Treasures, Bruce Watson - well at least, here's the chorus. I don't have the verses. Be sure to never split an infinitive, Never use no double negatives, Never generalise, that's a rule you'll see everyone break. Choose your words well, profread everythnig well, Keep everything clear, don't be vague. And avoid cliches like the plague. And as Bruce says - WHO NEEDS RHETORICAL QUESTIONS? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 25 Aug 07 - 12:43 AM So far no one has mentioned one very important factor. If you know what kind of people will be reading the thing, then craft it to meet their needs and expectations. My husband has done much technical work for a company from Taiwan. For a long time, reports were greeted with frustrated cries of "It doesn't make any sense!" I suggested that he try writing reports that contain as few abstract nouns as possible, because the Chinese are used to writing that is based on pictures, and pictures are based on concrete objects. That company had gone through 11 consultants in 10 years. They have kept my husband on for nine years now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Aug 07 - 12:48 AM That's interesting leenia. Can you compose a few sentences that demonstrate our approach and the chinese approach, so as to show the differences? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Rapparee Date: 25 Aug 07 - 11:04 AM Our approach: You got that sucker turned on, dummy? Their approach: You got that computer turned on, stupid one? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: GUEST,Don Firth (I get my computer back next week) Date: 25 Aug 07 - 11:23 AM ". . . depending on whom one is writing for." Tsk tsk, Little Hawk! That should be either ". . . depending on who one is writing for," (which ends the sentence with a preposition, but that seems to be more acceptable these days), or ". . . depending on for whom one is writing," (which is more formal). Mrs. Beezley |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Amos Date: 25 Aug 07 - 11:34 AM Ours: If even this does not remedy the problem, you may be dealing with a condition known as FBKC (failure between keyboard and chair). In this case, please restore your computer to its orignal packing and return it to the vendor for a complete refund. Theirs: You are spawn of a devil and do not deserve a computer. Surrender the computational unit and all containers to the State and await reassignment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: GUEST,Don Firth Date: 25 Aug 07 - 11:42 AM The only way they'll get my computer away from me (once I get it back from the shop) is to pry it off my cold, dead desk! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Aug 07 - 01:23 PM LOL!!! (snort!) MORE, people, give me MORE examples of Chinese translation!!! To say "on who" in any context is grossly incorrect, Don. It has to be "on whom" to be correct, because "whom" is the object of the preposition "on". |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Amos Date: 25 Aug 07 - 01:51 PM Ms Beezeley, you are sadly, deeply, in error. Little Hawk, for once, is precisely correct. So va fingule. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Aug 07 - 02:02 PM Once again proving that anyone can eventually hit the bullseye...if he just fires enough arrows... Right, Amos? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: GUEST,mg Date: 25 Aug 07 - 02:14 PM I think you are both wrong. It definitely should be whom but not for the reasons stated. I think depended on is one of those phrase verbs and whom is not the object of the preposition on but the object of the phrase period. But that could be argued. I also think that whom is the object of the preposition whom and that there is a hidden or assumed object..such as "the person" .... so the phrase or clause of the sentence is really (I am rusty obviously) is really depending on (verb phrase..but that is arguable) (the person...assumed object) whom one is writing for (or for whom one is writing). I am Catholic. We know these things, or at least used to. mg Tsk tsk, Little Hawk! That should be either ". . . depending on who one is writing for," (which ends the sentence with a preposition, but that seems to be more acceptable these days), or ". . . depending on for whom one is writing," (which is more formal). |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: GUEST,mg Date: 25 Aug 07 - 02:34 PM oops ..I meant whom is object of preposition for. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Aug 07 - 03:43 PM (laughing in disbelief here...) Ummm...yeah. Right... Have you considered getting treatment for your condition, mg? Try freebasing some "Little Friskies" in order to attain greater clarity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Amos Date: 25 Aug 07 - 04:38 PM One does not "write for who". C'mon For is the preposition directing the verb to write, and whom is the object of it. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Slag Date: 25 Aug 07 - 11:49 PM Ah so Amos-san. I believe acronym is PICNIC (Problem in chair, not in computer). Guest Leeneia, see my earlier post: Know your audience, Know your subject. To wit, four time better than half-wit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 26 Aug 07 - 10:11 AM Amos said: One does not "write for who". Many of us (including me) tend to glaze over when given the technical grammatical reasons for approved usages. I flatter myself that I can write well and write grammatically, but somehow my English teachers never made most of the terminology relevant or meaningful. There are simple procedures, though, that accomplish the same (and correct) result, without resorting to grammar jargon. In the case of who/whom, the decision of which to use is always solved by retaining the sentence structure but substituting "he" or "him" ("she" or "her"). In Amos's example above, "One does not write for he" is immediately recognizable as wrong. It has to be recast as "One does not write for him." Thus, "write for whom" is indicated. I have never seen this test fail to indicate the right usage. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 26 Aug 07 - 11:28 AM Uncle DaveO you've got a good test, and for people who don't know the answer instinctively it can also be used to resolve the I/me question. BUT.... You've allowed Amos to lure you away from the phrase at issue. It is depending on who, not write for who. I wonder if Amos would ever write depending on whom you ask. For my money Mrs Beezley was right and deserves to have her PC returned. Notwithstanding his pontificating on the subject, George Orwell had a ponderous, sometimes laboured style. However he did write (in a different essay) "The art of writing lies largely in the perversion of words." He was bemoaning gaps in even in the colossal English-language vocabulary and must have had a point or Edith Sitwell would not have needed to write: "The morning light creaks down again." A well-known British author Alan Sillitoe has always tested the quality of his writing by seeing how it sounds when he reads it aloud. Rapaire, there is nothing exceptional about it's and its. One is a contraction, the other is a personal adjective like his. Or should that be hi's? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Amos Date: 26 Aug 07 - 11:42 AM I beg to differ,, Pete. The clause "depending on for whom one is writing" is built around the verb construction "writing for whom". A parallel example would be "depending on whom's ox is being gored.". Obviously, whom is incorrect in the latter example. It is facetious. It is not about depending on someone, but rather an idea that depends on for whom one is writing. The concept is what is depending, and it is depending on a fact. If the verb to depend meaning "relying on a person" was being used, the construction might be, for example, "depending on who is depending on whom." :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Janie Date: 26 Aug 07 - 11:51 AM Maticulously correct grammer is not something I consider to be an absolute of good writing. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 26 Aug 07 - 12:52 PM Janie told us: Maticulously correct grammer is not something I consider to be an absolute of good writing. Meticulously correct Actually, grammar (despite what our grade-school teachers may have told us) is not that absolute in itself. Every one of us speaks at least one (probably more) dialect of the language, and perhaps writes a somewhat different dialect. And each of those dialects has its own grammar, understood and followed by its speakers/writers. Cockney has its own understood rules. Gullah has its own understood rules. Ebonics (remember that?) has its own understood rules. Geordie has its own understood rules. And on and on. The set of rules we generally refer to as "good grammar" represents an attempt to codify what is expected in high, formal English. Every one of those grammars (and there are hundreds if not thousands of them) is subject to change over time. The formal grammar I was taught sixty years ago is recognized today by the foremost English mavens as severely outdated in many respects. What passes today for educated high English grammar will be laughably outdated in another sixty--actually, in another fifteen or twenty--years. The trick is to recognize at what level of formality one intends to write or speak, and to what audience, and in what dialect. Then apply the appropriate grammar to that standard. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Aug 07 - 01:44 PM Yes, it would properly be "depending on whom you ask", since "whom" is the object in that case, and "you ask" is not the object. The again, it would properly be "depending on who does it". That's because in that case the object of the prepostion "on" is an entire phrase "who does it", so the word "who" in that entire phrase remains unchanged. The word "who" is the subject of the phrase "who does it", while the phrase itself is the object of the preposition "on". Confused yet? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: mg Date: 26 Aug 07 - 01:55 PM whom is the object of ask. You ask whom. I still think there is a hidden, assumed, object there. Whom you ask is a phrase that goes with the hidden object. Depending on the cat whom you ask. Depending on the sailor whom you ask. It is like a contraction where the word is implied but not spoken. But you could have one of those intransitive verbs and then who would be ok. He is the person who wrote the book. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:05 PM You're right, by golly, "whom" IS the object of "you ask"... There are a lot of lonely "whoms" wandering around these days, because so few people can be bothered to use them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:31 PM Many people in today's world see "whom" (in whatever context) as hifalutin', and wouldn't use it to save their lives. A little hyperbole there, but you get the point, I'm sure. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: GUEST,Don Firth Date: 26 Aug 07 - 02:47 PM "This is the sort of pedantic nonsense up with which I will not put!" --Winston Churchill Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: GUEST,mg Date: 26 Aug 07 - 03:29 PM true...and most of us don't speak that way...I rarely use whom in speech and quite often break the rules in writing. But it is part of my religious heritage to at least know the rules...mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: katlaughing Date: 26 Aug 07 - 03:37 PM A well-known British author Alan Sillitoe has always tested the quality of his writing by seeing how it sounds when he reads it aloud. I've always done that with my writing, too. It makes a big difference sometimes. I am going to send a link for this thread to the senior editor to whom I sent my editing test. I am sure it will get a chuckle and then, he'll probably want to hire the lot of you! Oops, maybe I'd better not until I know I have the job!**bg** I agree with Janie and Uncle DaveO,though, a creative writer will use various voices depending on their characters and thus "correct" grammar will vary also. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Stringsinger Date: 26 Aug 07 - 04:08 PM Hi Kat, The magic words are "Strunk and White". (Beg, borrow, steal, .....) And: Eschew any obdurate propensity for sesquapedalianim. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: katlaughing Date: 26 Aug 07 - 04:21 PM Hi, Frank, yes, thanks. I still have my copy from Junior High! But, for editing it is the Chicago Manual of Style which happens to be online now! Of course, I'll have to subscribe if I get the job and want to be able to access all areas of the publication.:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: M.Ted Date: 26 Aug 07 - 04:30 PM It is probably best not to ask this group any question that requires an absolute answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Janie Date: 26 Aug 07 - 04:43 PM Dave O. is absolutely write about the spelling. I knew it didn't look right but was too lazy to check it. My bad. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing? From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Aug 07 - 04:50 PM "My bad" is not good English, Janie! It indicates that one is not willing to expend the energy required to say something with more than 2 syllables in order to express the concept that they are in error. (grin!) This could yet become a classic thread for we pedantic types to frolic in... |
