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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Sep 07 - 03:42 PM Precisely. A version you don't like makes you value more highly a better version. And it can even make you more likely to sing it yourself, which is the best way of appreciating a song. Works of genius aren't damaged by being copied and changed in the copying, any more than a mountain is damaged if someone paints a less than perfect pucture of it. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: M.Ted Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:18 PM LTS--Are you questioning the worth of Patrick Kavenaugh's poetry? Or the judgement of the Irish people, who favor him second only to W.B Yeats? And is that remark about the the handles on cups a smarmy stab at the great man? |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Liz the Squeak Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:54 PM I am not familiar with the poetry of Patrick Kavenaugh, any more than I'd guess you'd be familiar with the works of Dorset poet William Barnes (who was a self-taught genius a hundred years before PK). I'm not saying he wasn't an intelligent and insightful man, I'm not saying he wasn't a genius - I'm just saying that genius, like taste, differs from person to person. I'm not trying to be smarmy or stab anyone, I'm just pointing out that what some consider genius, others think unworthy of the title. LTS |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Herga Kitty Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:57 PM But to each his own said the man as he kissed the pig. mg Must remember this for next year's Wareham Wail... Kitty |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Liz the Squeak Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:49 PM And the pig got up and slowly walked away.... LTS |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Tootler Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:17 PM To M.Ted. Like LTS, I am not in a position to judge whether or not Patrick Kavanagh is a genius as I am not familiar with his poetry, though I do think Raglan Road is a very fine poem. However, there is pretty strong circumstantial evidence that Kavanagh conceived Raglan Road as song and the tune he had in mind was Dawning of the Day. As a song, I suggest it is flawed. There are places in the song/poem where the musical phrases and the literary phrases do not match and a good song requires that this happens so that the melody enhances the words. This is particularly evident in the third verse; "... That's known to the artists who have known The true gods of sound and stone. And her words and tint without stint I gave her poems to say..." Strictly speaking there needs to be a pause after "words and tint" as "without stint" really starts a new sentence and the idea it conveys belongs to the next line. However there is not a natural pause in the music at this point which makes this section difficult to sing so as to convey the meaning properly. I notice even Luke Kelly, who many consider to be the finest interpreter of this song does not really get this bit right. Luke Kelly can be heard singing it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5HYGhU_C_k |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:55 PM Except that wasn't what Kavanagh wrote. The line in question as he wrote it is: And word and tint. I did not stint for I gave her poems to say. It can be a tricky stanza to sing, true enough. But it's perfectly singable in a way that respects the natural fall of the words and the meaning. The assumption people often make that a tune has to be pretty well exactly the same form verse to verse can make for needless difficulties. It's a nonsense assumption, with no basis in traditional singing in Ireland or for that matter in Britain. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Sep 07 - 08:42 PM "Except that wasn't what Kavanagh wrote." Exactly. This happens interminably in any debate about this song/poem. It's all very well to tell us to google it. I defy anyone here to reproduce the poem exactly as Patrick Kavanagh wrote it! |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Cluin Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:02 PM Better drag out the olde Ouija board then. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: M.Ted Date: 05 Sep 07 - 01:00 AM LTS--what moved you to make a point like that concerning a poet that you've never read? It seems flippant, at best. At any rate, I am familiar with William Barnes, who is certainly worth reading. He and PK had a significantly different world views--antithetical is a word that pops to mind-- |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,PMB Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:16 AM Ted, the adulation of the whole Irish people is scarcely infallible. Vox populi, vox Daithi? At least one great Irishman (he was a trinity, though never of Trinity) had some scathing things to say about Kavanagh's poetry, and he was no mean writer himself. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Liz the Squeak Date: 05 Sep 07 - 03:34 AM I didn't say I'd never read any of his works.. I'm just not familiar with them and couldn't quote you a title to save my life. Like Barnes and Hardy, he catalogues a way of life that has gone the way of the dodo. His is not a life or history that I'm interested in so haven't made a point of reading further than the few that have come my way in anthologies. PMB just reiterates my suggestion that one mans' genius is another mans' mediocrity. LTS |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:31 AM I can't see how the way of life catalogued in Raglan Road has "gone the way of the dodo". Some things change in the world, but not all by any means all. The words of the poem as Kavanagh had them published are available in any number of anthologies or collections. As a song it exists in numerous variants, that being the way of songs which are transmitted through being sung widely. I think that is something to rejoice in. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Liz the Squeak Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:51 AM McGrath - I'm not referring to 'Raglan Road', but other works of Mr Kavanagh. LTS |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Grab Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:29 AM Are you questioning the worth of Patrick Kavenaugh's poetry? Or the judgement of the Irish people, who favor him second only to W.B Yeats? Don't think anyone's questioning the worth, just the holiness. And the judgement of any particular group of people doesn't mean shit. The Irish also happen to love the cheesiest kinds of country music. And the British have happily voted "Grandad", "Mr Blobby", "Mistletoe and wine" and other tripe to the top of the charts. Not that PK's poetry falls into the same category as them, but just that popularity does not equal quality. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: M.Ted Date: 05 Sep 07 - 12:19 PM I think that we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I believe that the idea that "one man's genius is another man's mediocrity" relegates Shakespeare, Mozart, Charlie Parker, Rembrandt, and such, to the ash heap. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Cluin Date: 05 Sep 07 - 01:33 PM Hyperbole, anyone? Try some of the litotes. There very good this year. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Cluin Date: 05 Sep 07 - 01:35 PM Spot the deliberate mistake above. I meant to do that, yeah... sure... |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: M.Ted Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:11 PM Unfortunately, I am being straight forward here. I have heard all of the above, as well as many others of note, dismissed as "crap". Recently, I was having dinner with friends. We were close to the final resting place of one of my favorite writers, F. Scott Fitzgerald, which I mentioned--one of the friends launched into a long, loud, diatribe to the effect that his books were nothing but crap, that he was an overrated hack, and that he was much surpassed by writers like Stephen King and Danielle Steele-- By LTS reckoning, she would be right-- |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:13 PM It's supposed to go: "That's known to the artists who have known, True gods of sound and stone, and words and tint I did not stint, for I gave her poems to say" Which works on the page, but falls apart when sung to that tune in 4/4 times because there's a three beat gap between Stone and And - which makes the next bit a new sentence whether you want it to or not. Some pepole do sing it in 3/4 time, and it actually works much better. For example there's only a one beat gap there now. This song operates a bit like many pop songs. People edit what they hear, and only allow the bits that they like and can grok into their perception of what it's about. As a poem it had some merit, but I doubt many would have picked up on it. When sung it makes little sense if you use Kavanagh's words correctly, and even less when people try to change the words to put some sense back into it, and fail! I gave up singing it entirely once I discovered what the words really were. I decided I liked the poem as a poem and the tune as a tune - but I do use it in my songwriting workshops, because it illustrates loads of points about how words and tunes are supposed to work together, (or in this case; don't). In my personal opinion Loreena McKennit's version scores top marks for passion and vocal skill (which is terrific), but rather lower in terms of the interpretation of a difficult song (she unkinks the tune in a couple of places, which rather lets the air out), and a bit below that for lyric changes. Just watch her expression as she delivers the line she's decided to use for that difficult phrase above, lol! That said, people are obviously moved by this song wherever and however they hear it. Which I hope supports my pet theory that the secret of a good song is a good tune and some powerful images. (The secret if a really great song is both of these, but great words too)! Tom |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Tom Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:17 PM PS - I'm sure everyone knows but "sound and stone and words and tint" refer to the four arts of music, sculpture, poetry and painting or did someone say that above and I missed it. If so sorry! |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Tootler Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:15 PM "That's known to the artists who have known, True gods of sound and stone, and words and tint I did not stint, for I gave her poems to say" Which works on the page, but falls apart when sung to that tune in 4/4 times because there's a three beat gap between Stone and And - which makes the next bit a new sentence whether you want it to or not. Which is exactly the point I was trying to make and is still valid whether you use the "correct" words or the version I posted - which is a common version, as far as I could determine and certainly is the version in the DT database. The assumption people often make that a tune has to be pretty well exactly the same form verse to verse can make for needless difficulties. It's a nonsense assumption, with no basis in traditional singing in Ireland or for that matter in Britain. Which is not what I was trying to say but rather that the natural pauses in the words need to fit with the natural pauses in the music. In practice, variation of the tune from verse to verse does not generally change underlying pulse, but more commonly you get notes lengthened or broken into shorter notes to accommodate different numbers of syllables in different verses plus, of course the singer's decoration of the basic melody to give some variation from verse to verse. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:49 PM It seems to me that if the singer is following the sense of the poem, the phrasing comes out right, and the necessary adjustment follows naturally enough. More easily, perhaps, when it's sung unaccompanied. But I grant you it's more often sung the other way, with a new sentence starting at "And words". |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST Date: 05 Sep 07 - 05:41 PM Luke Kelly did not change the words on his version on You Tube but should have been shot for his crap banjo accompaniment. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,mg Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:06 PM Well, that verse works quite well for me and everyone I have heard sing it that I like. WHich is almost all of them. But I don't believe I recall that anyone put the "for" in there. it makes it much easier...My musical purity stops at the place where you crowd too many syllables into a poor little note. mg |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:15 PM Well, the "for" wasn't there in the original poem either. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:17 PM Sorry - I was probably thinking of the wrong "for" there. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:54 PM I think Luke Kelly's banjo accompaniment was absolutely right for his singing of the song. Ten times better than a lot of the over-clever and over-complicated self-acompaniment of a lot of the English singers. I know very few poems (mostly because most of the ones I've read seem forced and stilted), but this one of Kavanagh's strikes a chord with me. I love "true gods of sound and stone and words and tint." I like to think the emphasis is on the word "true" with its implicit dismissal of the false, religious "God" who serves only to derail our cultural understanding and freedom of thought. And "let grief be a fallen leaf" is lovely to my ears. Carpe diem! Condemn any poem at your peril. The true poetry is in the way the reader/hearer reacts, and it can be a very personal thing. Anyway, Luke and this song are coming to the desert island with me. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Declan Date: 06 Sep 07 - 03:32 AM Why does it have to be one or the other? The "and words or tint" works both as the completion of the sound and stone line and the beginning of a new sentence "And words and tint I did not stint". It's not possible to convey that on a written page, because you need to opt one way or the other with the punctuation. But you can sing it that way and it works. I woul have no problem with people changing lyrics to suit the way they want to sing a song. It doesn't take away from the song/poem as written or other people's versions of the song. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 06 Sep 07 - 05:01 AM "Why does it have to be one or the other? The "and words or tint" works both as the completion of the sound and stone line and the beginning of a new sentence "And words and tint I did not stint". It's not possible to convey that on a written page, because you need to opt one way or the other with the punctuation. But you can sing it that way and it works." You can, and it does - after a fashion, but it doesn't work as well as the original poem works as a written/spoken piece. The original poem has its own integrity and mood (which as has been suggested above probably wasn't the mood that's engendered by the melody of The Dawning of The Day), which carries and clarifies all the imagery and 'in-jokes' when delivered well. The crafts of writing poety and songs are very different. The poet is free to stress his lines as he choses. Speech produces a melody of its own, and a poem (or well written script) implies its own tune - ask any good actor. A lyricist is bound by the constrictions of an actual tune, and his skill lies in finding words that work with a real melody, not just with it's rhythm and shape, but with it's mood also. (Or to write a tune which does the same with the words - or best still both together at the same time). For example, no (good) songwriter would ever have written the words "For I loved too much, and by such and such" to the penultimate line of The Dawning of the Day, because the rising notes at the end put a special emphasis on the 'such and such' which would have been a passive passage in the original poem. As it is now it just sounds a little silly. If I was writing a song and wanted to convey that thought with that tune I'd have put the 'I loved too much' at the end of the line - because that's where the emotional break occurs (and I'd have found something else to say in the half line before it). You also need to match the syllable count and the ticks of the rhythm nicely. 'Is happiness thrown away" is awkward to this tune. If you're not careful you sing 'is ha penis thown away,' because there are two ticks on the 'ha' and the 'pe' goes up so the syllable is emphasied. There are lots of other examples in Raglan Road where the words have to be bodged to fit the tune. It takes a lot of skill to sing this song well. Perhaps it would have been better if Kelly had completely rewritten the words (with Kavanagh's permission, of course), keeping the sentiment and imagery intact, but making a new song, which worked in its own right. But - hey, people love the song, which proves that it's not as hard to write lyrics as it is to write a tune. Perhaps. Tom |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 06 Sep 07 - 05:04 AM Sorry I meant to say "Speech produces a melody of its own, and a poem (or well written script) implies its own tune - ask any good actor..." But that tune is 'free' and doesn't have to repeat the way song melodies need to do. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 07 - 06:11 AM Another example of a poem that sounds slightly odd as a song (I've mentioned it before) is "The Song of Wandering Aengus" by Yeats, sung by Christy Moore. Christy, as with Luke, makes such a fine job of it that any little cavils I may have are soon dispelled. I love 'em both, flaws included! |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: vectis Date: 06 Sep 07 - 07:25 AM Bob Copper always said "take the song and make it your own" Sounds like this lass has done just that. This doesn't mean that you have to like it or start singing her version. Folk and good songs can stand some minor alterations or complete parodies and still be good songs in their own right. There is no right or wrong in this her version is just different. Accept it and don't let it upset you, you can't make her change what she's doing, so don't raise your blood pressure over it just agree to differ with her. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Tom Date: 06 Sep 07 - 07:28 AM Having an informed debate about these things is huge fun. No raised blood pressure lol!!! |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Santa Date: 06 Sep 07 - 04:25 PM I'd like to add what a treat this thread, and the associated ones, have been to read. I have, thanks to the tip about RTE, finally managed to hear both the Loreeta and Luke versions. For some unimaginable reason, I seem to have previously missed the song completely. I've also managed to get my wife and the computer together long enough to swap opinions. We agree that the Luke Kelly version is far too slow. I would also add that the performance borders on self-parody: I don't know what the Irish equivalent of "finger in the ear" is, but "finger in the Guinness" doesn't seem to fit. I guess that counts as individual taste. The Loreeta McKenna version was a bit over-emotive, but better paced. Having read the words separately, I think something rather cooler and reflective would suit the poem (and the beautiful tune) better. My wife's comments on the poem was "narcissitic bugger": I shall leave to those who knew the poet better to decide on the historic accuracy of that! I found the Van Morrison version on You Tube but the version was too staccato to listen to. I shall have to look out for the Martin Simpson one. She also said "Tom Bliss is a musician, then?" in response to your comments on fitting the words to the tune. As a decent unaccompanied club singer (I think she's better but I'm biased) she is used to changing tunes to fit words, and certainly doesn't feel that either should be regarded as inviolable. Not being a musician, singer or poet, I feel that considering the tune to be unalterable is the same attitude as regarding the poem sacrosant: if we stuck to both we wouldn't have the song at all. I only hope that this doesn't raise blood pressures too high. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: PMB Date: 07 Sep 07 - 04:33 AM Here's another Kavanagh poem, though I'll defy you to sing it (the tune is Pddy McGinty's Goat): Having To Live in the Country Back once again in wild, wet Monaghan Exiled from thought and feeling, A mean brutality reigns: It is really a horrible position to be in And I equate myself with Dante And all who have lived outside civilization. It isn't a question of place but of people; Wordsworth and Coleridge lived apart from the common man, Their friends called on them regularly. Swift is in a somewhat different category He was a genuine exile and his heavy heart Weighed him down in Dublin. Yet even he had compensations for in the Deanery He received many interesting friends And it was the eighteenth century. I suppose that having to live Among men whose rages Are for small wet hills full of stones When one man buys a patch and pays a high price for it That is not the end of his paying. "Go home and have another bastard" shout the children, Cousin of the underbidder, to the young wife of the purchaser. The first child was born after six months of marriage, Desperate people, desperate animals. What must happen the poor priest Somewhat educated who has to believe that these people have souls As bright as a poet's - though I don't, mind, speak for myself. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 07 Sep 07 - 07:05 AM That's wonderful!! But I think it fits even better to London's Calling myself! A musician? LOL! I think Napper would disagree (only kidding, Tom)! I write and sing unaccompanied as well as with a variety of instruments, and yes I guess it's true that RR would be much easier to do nude. In fact I've just tried it and it is. It certainly solves a lot of the timing problems, but it doesn't fix everything. 'Such and such' still seems too prominent, and I'm still not sure that such a beautiful sad tune can ever really convey the "wryly self-mocking" tone (as McGrath so astutely put it). Peersonally, I feel the poem passes through a number of emotions, though it's hard to judge having heard the song many times before I read the words as they were laid out on the page (and that makes a big difference as any poet will tell you). The tune now informs my reading of the poem, so it's hard to grasp that Kavanagh was really driving at. I suspect the local Dublin references are almost in-jokes, or geographical puns perhaps, so maybe there's some dry humour in poem, which is lost in the sad but quite opulent setting, leaving these references sounding merely perplexing. I don't have any problem with people changing words or tunes (as long as it's with permission if the writer's still alive). I do it all the time myself, in fact I think RR needs more drastic revision than you commonly hear to have real integrity as a song. I guess I say all this because I work hard to expunge any confusion from my own songs - while leaving room for the listener's imagination to flower. I require every syllable to count in the effect (even if I'm being deliberatly obscure and poetic), and, because I feel I'm talking to the audience when I sing, I also don't want to seem to be talking nonsense (well, not in a serious song anyway) to people who've kindly come out to see me. When I sing Raglan Road there are some lines that just don't make sense to me - so how can I convey the sense of them to an audience? If a lyric is completely free, abstract, in blank verse - as some are, that would be fine. But RR is quite specific and literal some of the time, but very non-specific and elliptical at others. It's in this disconnect that my problems lie. I just don't think many songwriters would deliberatly set out to give the listener this many hurdles to jump over. Whereas a poet would, and should. But as say, none of this really matters if it moves you personally (as it obviously does to most), and I understand Kavanagh was delighted with the setting, so this is really just academic blather from an inveterate devils advocate like me! Tom PS, I'm fascinated by the craft of songwriting, and it's my job too. If anyone happens to be interested, this is a download of the booklet that was serialised in Living Tradition magazine last year. (It's free) |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,mg Date: 07 Sep 07 - 10:55 AM songs don't have to make sense. mg |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 07 Sep 07 - 01:08 PM No, of course not, but usually when songs don't make sense it's either because of a deliberate decision by the songwriter/s, within the context of a cohesive package of lyrics and tune, or because of a natural process or erosion over time through the tradition - in which case it's usual for interpreters to rework the song, so that it does actually hang together. RR is, for me, a fascinating subject for study because of its very recent and unusual genesis as a song. We are seeing the start of the evolution process. A lot of singers seem to feel the need to do something about those uncomfortable areas, and going back to the poem doesn't seem to help a lot, as we've discussed. Loreena's version is one attempt at getting it into shape, but like you I'm really not sure it's an improvement. That's why, for now, I personally still prefer the words as a poem, and the melody as a (maybe different) song (does anyone know the 'original' words - if they ever existed, by the way?) Tom |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,mg Date: 07 Sep 07 - 01:34 PM I guess that is what bugs me..the deliberate reworking..it does not have to hang together either. The natural erosion is fine...and I have read something that indicates he always meant it to be a poem to that tune. I don't know. And I don't have trouble singing such by such and I am one who likes accents to go in the right place so I fail to see what the problem is, other than that extra for..mg |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Cluin Date: 07 Sep 07 - 08:30 PM "the tune is Paddy McGinty's Goat" Not a fucking chance, Buck. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:05 AM "I guess that is what bugs me..the deliberate reworking" mg, I believe you'll find that through the ages most traditional songs have been regularly and radically reworked, and deliberately too, for many reasons - which is why we have so many very different versions of what was maybe one root song. Not by every singer who took them up, of course, though there is always accidental change over time, (just compare one singer's own versions of the same song 5 years apart) plus the changes that take place during transmission - even if the new singer is trying to be faithful to the learned version. But it's highly likely that at least some singers have always been happy to make fairly drastic reworkings of a song it they felt it had become necessary, specially if they were taking it into a new environment, away from the community where they learned it. Just as happens today. What's unusual about RR is that the person who made the song, Luke Kelly, did not write either the words or the tune. The person who wrote the words is not responsible for the song either - only for a poem, which is a very different animal. And the person who wrote the tune certainly did not envisage those words with it. There is a large canon of works in this category of course - probably more than we know, as this practice is a very easy way to make a new work without doing any work (!), but RR is perhaps the best known of them, and as such it's very interesting to people like me. I suspect one key factor in its success is that there are no problems or tangles at all in the first verse, which works magnificently. Maybe we are happy to tolerate the eccentricities that come later because we have bought into the song during that excellent first verse (plus of course we're rewarded with lots of other magnificent lines, which do work perfectly with the lovely tune, as we go along). If so, that's a useful pointer to what makes songs work; what makes people like them. Does it tell us that, like when buying a house, you make up your mind about a song very quickly - in the first verse? If so we can contrast that with the knowledge that we can grow to love a piece of music we intitially hated, just through repeated listenings - so how does that fit with the above?! For someone like me who is really interested in the psychology of song, of music and singing generally (why and how it works, why do we rhyme, why metre, why melody etc, RR is almost a test case. Because it's not technically a song at all - and yet it obviously is, and a hugely successful one at that! Tom |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:13 AM Ah... One morning early I walked forth By the margin of Lough Leane The sunshine dressed the trees in green And summer bloomed again I left the town and wandered on Through fields all green and gay And whom should I meet but a colleen sweet At the dawning of the day. No cap or cloak this maiden wore Her neck and feet were bare Down to the grass in ringlets fell Her glossy golden hair A milking pail was in her hand She was lovely, young and gay She wore the palm from Venus bright By the dawning of the day. On a mossy bank I sat me down With the maiden by my side With gentle words I courted her And asked her to be my bride She said, "Young man don't bring me blame" And swiftly turned away And the morning light was shining bright At the dawning of the day. Well, maybe there are other versions too - certainly these are not as deep or as engaging as Kavanaghs poem! I wonder if it was the mention of hair that gave Kelly the idea for the link! |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Declan Date: 08 Sep 07 - 08:19 AM Tom, THat song is a translation of the Gaelic "Fáinne Geal an Lae", which means, as you might expect the dawning of the day - literally the Bright ring of Day. There is at least one other Dawning of the Day song to the same air which I have heard sung, but I don't know where the lyrics might be (The DT maight be a good starting point). On a more general point I find it hard to believe that PK wrote Raglan road, which actually contains the phrase "The Dawning of the Day" without this air in mind. It has been said elsewhere that Kavanagh gave Luke Kelly the lyrics and Luke matched them to the tune, but as I say this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:23 PM Has anyone translated Kavanagh's poem into the Irish? |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Sep 07 - 09:14 PM Tom Bliss a écrit: "Personally, I feel the poem passes through a number of emotions, though it's hard to judge having heard the song many times before I read the words as they were laid out on the page (and that makes a big difference as any poet will tell you). The tune now informs my reading of the poem, so it's hard to grasp that Kavanagh was really driving at. I suspect the local Dublin references are almost in-jokes, or geographical puns perhaps, so maybe there's some dry humour in poem, which is lost in the sad but quite opulent setting, leaving these references sounding merely perplexing." The poem's intentions are very clear. I simply cannot understand why you find it "hard to grasp what Kavanagh was really driving at." He wasn't "driving at" anything. He was writing a poem. The message of the poem is overwhelmingly simple and clear. I find nothing perplexing about the Dublin references and I don't understand your notion that Mr Kavanagh was perplexing us with near in-jokes. The poem's "message" is simple and clear, even to a non-aficionado like me. We need less of this wishy-washy bullshit when we are presented with poetry and more of the simple directness of the Luke Kellys of this world conveying the message to us. That way, poetry becomes that bit more accessible to us all. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Jerry O'Reilly Date: 09 Sep 07 - 02:38 AM If I remember correctly Des Geraghty has done a translation into Irish. I'll give him a ring and try to persuade him to post it here. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 09 Sep 07 - 04:11 AM I can't find it now, but I'd understood that there are many more references to Dublin places buried in the poem than just Raglan Road and Grafton Street. I'm sure someone said elsewhere that the The Queen of Hearts was a pub as well as a reference to both the nursery rhyme and the lady in question. I think also The Ledge was a ginnel as well as a metaphor for a dangerous path and The Ravine was a place within a park - and I believe there is a reference to a bakery somewhere - sorry not to be more specific. I think we all understand the overall message in the poem, Steve. But Kavanagh has obviously chosen his words very carefully indeed, and there are lots of places where it's not immediately obvious what he meant. That's as it should be in a poem - the listener/reader makes up his own mind. Songs tend to be slightly more direct than poems, as a rule, but the listener still has to make up his own mind. In both cases that choice is personal and private. But if you are a singer who is planning to re-write someone else's words, you are taking on a big responsibility - specially if your version may be widely heard. So you need to engage much more deeply which what the original writer was trying to achieve - just as you would if you were planning to take a chisel to a statue. If you don't, you could wind up making a pigs ear out of a silk purse. That's my problem with Raglan Road. There are lines which I think sound wonderful to that tune, but others where the tune makes the words hard to understand, or even quite ugly - when they were beautiful on the page. So that's why so many people opt to make changes - and I agree that changes are necessary if the song is really to speak properly. The trouble is that some people's changes diminish the original work, instead of supporting it, which is shame. For example, I'd prefer there to be a better way of resolving the words/hint conundrum that doesn't banish the four arts - because i think they are a core idea in the poem - IF I understand what Kavanagh was 'driving at.' But i can't resolve it, which is one of the reasons I've stopped singing the song. I've heard many other versions where people have tried to knock off the corners because words and tunes don't sit well, but I seldom find them an improvement. And Loreena's decision to change the sexes undermines much of the power of Kavanagh's original imagery, which again I think is a pity. Maybe it's just because I'm a writer myself that I want to respect other writers' work. I have no problem changing trad songs, because the writers are long gone. I have no problem altering the work of living writers, because I can ask them first if it's ok and then get their approval for the changes. But Kavanagh is different. I know who he was, I hope I can understand him a little from the original poem and his other works, but I'm not comfortable with Raglan Road. I want to make changes, but his presence is still too strong, too alive. But also I can't talk to him and delve further in search of a really good solution. You see? Tom |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Sep 07 - 06:31 AM 'I gave her gifts of the mind,' I always hate that line. I'm sure the woman would have preferred a large gin and tonic, and a gift voucher for Next. |
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Subject: RE: She changed the words to Raglan Road From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Sep 07 - 06:33 AM seriously though he gave her 'gifts of the mind' and he's wondering why she pissed off........! |
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