Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?

Subject: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:29 AM

How to ask? I'm hopeful because this is how we got to find out the name of the tune played in the circus -- with no more clues than what I have.
It's the tune -- played on the piano, that was used for little girls to dance to. Usually a tap dance. It was used in America and in Australia from about 1930. It turns up in many movies.

It sounds like this:
Did -illy dum dee dum dee dum dee dum dee dum dee dum dee dee.
Did -illy dum dee dum dee dum dee dum dee Did -illy Did -illy dee.

Then it repeats with a slightly changed bit on the end.

Anyone know it's name? It's been bothering us for years.

Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 09:08 PM

No takers?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:13 AM

I've tried, but can't think of anything which fits the Dums and Diddles.
There's currently a thread about humming a tune into a web site and it matching against a database. BLICKY . You could try that.
Quack!
GtD

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:02 AM

Thanks for trying Geoff. I might have to give that site a try.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:05 AM

Oops no Mic. Have to try and find a friend with one.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:15 AM

OK Here's a thought:

eff# g e' c' a g f# g g# a f' d' f' d'--

d'c#'c' b g' d' e' g a b d'

c'e'd'c'bag

key of c, obviously
time 2/4

Also it's in the recent re-make of "The Music Man". Made for TV.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: clueless don
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 08:53 AM

Joy,

I tried converting your notes to abc, and the result sounded somewhat familiar - though in my "mind's ear", I heard it as a waltz, not in 2/4. However, I didn't know what note value to give to your individual tones.

In your "didilly dum" rendering of the tune:

Did -illy dum dee dum dee dum dee dum dee dum dee dum dee dee.
Did -illy dum dee dum dee dum dee dum dee Did -illy Did -illy dee.

can you give us an idea of the note value (quarter note, eighth note, etc.) for each syllable? For example, is "Did -illy" a quarter note followed by two eighth notes? or is it a triplet? Does "dum" have the same note value as "dee"? etc.

Perhaps by the time I finish posting this, someone else will have given you the name of the tune!

Don

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 09:16 PM

No it's in 2/4 alright and very bouncy. Thanks for trying, Don. Did-illy is a triplet run and the other notes are mostly dotted. Does that help.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: clueless don
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 09:20 AM

Joy,

Try this: copy the following abc code (starting with the "X:1" line)

X:1
T: unknown
C: unknown
K: C
M: 2/4
L:1/8
(3ef^f|g>e'|c'>a|g>^f|g>^g|a>f'|d'>f'|d'2
(3d'^c'=c'|b>g'|d'>e'|g>a|b>d'|(3c'e'd' (3c'ba| g4||


and paste it into the window at Concertina.net . Then click the "submit" button, and you should get some sheet music and a link to play a midi file of the tune. If this works correctly, the question is: Is this your tune? It sounds somewhat familiar to me, perhaps with some slightly different notes.

If it is your tune, then we need to wait for some knowledgeable mudcatter to identify it!

Don

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Here's the tune What is it?
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:53 PM

Don, You've got it!! Thank you. That's it alright.
Now - the name somebody?
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:43 AM

Sorry!
Sounds familiar, but can't put a name to it.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:53 AM

That's what all our friends say, Geoff. Thanks for trying.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Declan
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:37 PM

Can't identify the tune although I've often heard it.

If i'm correct it's a hornpipe which might narrow down your search a bit. It sounds a bit like Fishers Hornpipe - but is a different tune.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Declan
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:52 PM

The tune is very close to a tune called "Mrs Kenny's Barndance" which features on Matt Molloy's album "Stony Steps" which dates from I think the early 80s. If its not the same tune, its certainly a close relative.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:02 PM

Thanks for your interest Declan.
The tune doesn't sound like a folk dance. Maybe a distant relative but I don't know ... it doesn't feel like one.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Declan
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:03 PM

X: 130405
T: Mrs Kenny's Barn Dance
M: 4/4
Z: B.Black
L: 1/8
This is an ABC of Mrs Kenny's as played by Michalel Coleman. I think this is the one you're looking for.

R: hornpipe
S: from M. Coleman
K: C
(3EF^F | Gedc Gedc | A2 df a3 g | a2 ge f2 AB |\
(3cBc (3ecA G2 (3EF^F |
Gedc Gedc | A2 df a3 g | a2 ge f2 AB |1 (3cBc e2 c2 :|2\
(3cBc e2 c4 ||
K: G
(3bag dg (3bag dg | (3c'ba ea (3c'ba ea | fd^cd e2f2 |\
(3gba (3gfe d2 B2 |
(3bag dg (3bag dg | (3c'ba ea (3c'ba ea | fd^cd e2f2 |\
g2 f2 g4 ||
BABd cBce | d2 g2 g3 f | edeg agfe | d6 (3edc |
B2 g2 g2 (3dcB | A2 f2 f3 b | aeeg fefa | (3gfg b2 g4 ||

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Declan
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:07 PM

My comments in the last message seem to have gone into the middlwe of the tune, which may prove a problem in trying to play it back. Here's a clean version

X: 130405
T: Mrs Kenny's Barn Dance
M: 4/4
Z: B.Black
L: 1/8
R: hornpipe
S: from M. Coleman
K: C
(3EF^F | Gedc Gedc | A2 df a3 g | a2 ge f2 AB |\
(3cBc (3ecA G2 (3EF^F |
Gedc Gedc | A2 df a3 g | a2 ge f2 AB |1 (3cBc e2 c2 :|2\
(3cBc e2 c4 ||
K: G
(3bag dg (3bag dg | (3c'ba ea (3c'ba ea | fd^cd e2f2 |\
(3gba (3gfe d2 B2 |
(3bag dg (3bag dg | (3c'ba ea (3c'ba ea | fd^cd e2f2 |\
g2 f2 g4 ||
BABd cBce | d2 g2 g3 f | edeg agfe | d6 (3edc |
B2 g2 g2 (3dcB | A2 f2 f3 b | aeeg fefa | (3gfg b2 g4 ||

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 09:20 PM

Ah! Now I see what you mean, Declan. The tune does sound like a very close match. It must have been changed a little before it slipped into a show or a film maybe. Then was picked up by dance teachers.
Thank you. I believe you've solved it.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 10:18 PM

Started a bit of a search on Mrs. Kenny's Barn Dance. The dates on it (c. 1934) suggest it was being used by a dance band/dance-bands playing pre 1930s music. I note that it goes by several different names and has many variants. Also, after the first 4 bars, the match is not a really close one to the tune as we know it.
Could it be that there is an earlier composed tune that pre-dates all of these?

I also note that the TV film of "The Music Man" uses the tune as we know it -- albeit a fragment - and that is set in 1912. (Don't know if the earlier film uses it). The tune is used as a child's piece played on the piano. It is the only music, in the film, not composed by Meredith Willson. (Except for a little of "Goodnight Ladies").   If this is an acurate use of the tune -- and the rest of the film seems to be careful about acuracy -- then this is an earlier glimpse of it.

True-Love has a gut feeling that the tune comes from 1900 or before. He first heard it as a child in the 1940s. He is from Iowa - as was Meredith Willson -- for what that's worth.

Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: MystMoonstruck
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 01:07 AM

I feel really stupid that I didn't leap in on this. As soon as I read the initial description, I thought of Amaryllis in the film version practicing her song and getting the final note wrong each time. Is that the tune after all? I should have commented! *SIGH* I've been checking in, following the investigation.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 10:56 PM

Thank you MystMoonstruck. Every little clue helps. So -- this is the same tume used in the older film version? I haven't been able to check that out yet.
The "Internet Movie Data Base" is no help with this. The music is all credited back to Meredith Willson -- and we know he didn't write this little piece.
Keep watching -- We may be making progress.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Joybell
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 10:57 PM

tume?? Make that tune.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: Declan
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 06:47 AM

Matt Molloy learned Mrs Kenny's Barndance from the playing of Michael Coleman, a County Sligo born fiddle player who lived most of his life in the States. His recordings made in America had a huge influence on Traditional musicians here in his native Ireland.

I don't know anything about the provenance of Mrs Kenny's although I'm sure there is information around somewhere as Coleman's playing has been the subject of a lot of research over the years.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that Michael "borrowed" the melody from another tune that may have been popular in the US at the time, but the borrowing may also have happened in the other direction.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The tune little girls danced to. Title?
From: clueless don
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:45 AM

Back on 14 Sep 07 - 01:07 AM, MystMoonstruck wrote

"... I thought of Amaryllis in the film version practicing her song and getting the final note wrong each time. Is that the tune after all? ..."

This scene may be viewed at this YouTube link. The tune starts at about 1:16 into the clip.

Although I see the similarities between the tune in question and Mrs. Kenny's Barn Dance, I don't think they are the same tune. I suppose, as others have mentioned, that the two tunes could have a common antecedent.

I would still like to know the name of this piece!

Don