BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:33 AM

Students who violate rules face suspension or expulsion.

When one of Ahmadinejad's predecessors came to Germany in 1967, there was a lot of even violent student protest against him. If all those who had violated rules then would have been suspended the universities would have been half empty. If all those violating university rules in their protests against the war in Vietnam would have been expelled the universities would have been even more empty.

Ahmadinejad has a clever way with words (if one reads the transcript). His intention is to fool others while at the same time feeding his supporters.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:10 AM

I didn't say he 'came off a hero', John. I did say he would be received as one at home in Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:07 AM

The only way Ahmadinejad comes off as a hero is if one already believed his view of the world. There are a growing number of people who do agree with his view of the world. Obviously some of them here. But NOT calling them crazy in the name of being polite doesn't stop them or their cause. The world needs to be reminded from time to time that people of the stature of a President of one of our major Universities -- as liberal as his politics might be to the western world -- STILL does not buy into the nonsense that the holocaust did not happen, that women should be treated like shit, that gays should be executed, that......do I really need to go on?

Had Bollinger not made that clear (that he finds those abuses appauling), one would have assumed him to be as tolerant (by virtue of his invitation to Ahmadinejad) of all those abuses as, say, the average mudcatter seems to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:55 AM

It wouldn't bother me one jot or tittle if Iran's president fell down the stairs and broke his neck. But Bollinger gave him the opportunity to come off looking the wounded set-upon visiting speaker. Bollinger was outsmarted. Next, the General Assembly will be outsmarted. I hope someone can keep Bush shut up. Between the two of them, (A and B), they could fuck up a one-car funeral. Keystone Cops without the humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:48 AM

Bollinger was an ass for speaking the truth and Ahmadinejad is a hero for lying?

It's a mixed-up, shook-up world here at the mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:44 AM

He's addicted to the ancient superstition of Islam. Other addicts elected him. The same reason GWB is the president of the US, only a different elixir.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: pdq
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:44 AM

"...why Ahmadinejad is the president of Iran..."

Jimmy Carter

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:23 AM

Better one should wonder why Ahmadinejad is the president of Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:17 AM

So then one begins to wonder, why is this guy the president of Columbia University?

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:15 AM

His treatment at the hands of Bollinger was deplorable. But once the rhetoric is washed away, Ahmadinejad is the head of a country with which the US might be at war in the future, and not understanding the guy who calls the shots is down-right stupid. He should not have been treated in the manner he was, no matter how disgusting his political views or world views. The unfortunate aspect to it all is that he'll return to Iran a hero, and that means the approach taken by Bollinger was nothing short of stupid. The Rolling Stones did a recording, the title of which rings a few bells: "Sympathy for the Devil." Yeah, right . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:38 AM

What protests? What bad manners? It never happened. There is no proof of protests and I deny it ever occured.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:03 AM

Alba - I agree completely. It wouldn't be too surprising to hear a politician eager to impress voters to say the things Bollinger said. But for the president of a university with the status of Colombia to say those things was nothing short of embarrassing.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Alba
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:54 AM

Sympathy for Ahmadinejad?.. I see none here but then that would depends on how one chooses to interpret some of the posts on this thread

Embarrassment at the behavior of an Academic President of a well respected Campus during his pseudo introduction to an 'invited' speaker?... some may be and some may not be. All down to each person's idea of decorum I suppose

Are some people Interested to hear what Ahmadinejad's answers are to the questions asked? ...Speaking strictly for myself, I believe it would be foolish not to want to know what this person had to say..
especially his rhetoric regarding the Holocaust and Israel

I thought that Bollinger would most definetly come out of this with some measure of respect for daring to go against the majority and inviting and allowing Ahmadinejad to speak at Columbia this time round. I say again, sadly, Bollinger came away looking like an ass. I do not however believe that Ahmadinejad came away with any sympathy. Academic respect perhaps for handling himself well under pressure ( like a President would when under verbal fire actually) but being seen as a sympathetic figure...hardly!

Today Bush speaks and then Ahmadinejad speaks at the UN.
I will be listening to both of their speeches.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:03 AM

I daily log on here and read the most vile language in the English language regularly used to describe George Bush, both as president and as a person.

...and yet this man who wishes to annihilate Israel and says that the holocaust didn't happen....him you can sympathize with.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 07:40 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tACSopIZVdk

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 05:28 AM

Gay people, even teens, face execution in Iran today.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:52 PM

beardedbruce, I'm not sure if your ROTC question is in reference to my post defending free speech, or someone else's, but in any case, for whatever it's worth, I am opposed to banning ROTC from campuses.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:43 PM

The Board of Trustees (or whatever the supervisory body of Columbia University is called) should demand the resignation of their president. As Alba says, an ass.
Almadinejad handled himself well, never losing his temper. We may not agree with him, but he is tempering the excesses of the extreme fundamentalists.
A middle class is growing. Not democracy as we know it but more representative than some governments in the area.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:28 PM

I haven't read this thread yet, I'm just jumping to the bottom to say I'm appalled at the bad manners of the Columbia community. Ahmadinejad stuck it out and spoke, despite the tirade visited upon him. If you invite someone to speak, then listen to what he has to say. All of those preconceived notions were put out on display, notions largely fed by a spotty, biased, U.S. media. The introduction could have been informative and gracious. This one wasn't. It's embarrassing.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Alba
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:11 PM

Thing is a lot of people in this Country already get to hear the views of the ROTC and other non-liberal Folks. Personally I have heard enough from Bush, Cheney and Coulter. There are many outlets available for those people's opinions to be aired in this Country.

I wish that Bollinger hadn't made an ass of himself today though but he did ....

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:31 PM

By the way, I agree wholeheartedly with BB...let's allow ROTC and other non-liberal viewpoints to be presented on campus at Columbia. By all means. Why not? Bring 'em all to Columbia. Bring Dick Cheney too. And Pat Robertson. And Anne Coulter. Should be fun.

Okay? Okay! Justice will be done at Columbia.

Now let's get back to Mr Ahmadinejad, shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:25 PM

Let's say that someone wanted to preserve as much fear and hostility as possible in their own public with regards to another party. In that case they would not want to have any public dialogue with that other party. They would want to stifle all possibility of such dialogue...in case the dialogue might lead in some positive direction.

This is why dictators and demagogues the world over don't want an open public dialogue with any of their chosen enemies. It might interfere with their promoting and maintaining a state of fear and crisis at home.

"If you stifle his oratory, you have nothing valid to argue or agree with."

Correct. Of course if someone wants nothing valid to argue or agree with...but just wants an official "bad guy" for people to vent hatred upon...then the obvious solution is: stifle his oratory, refuse to engage in dialogue with him or his underlings, when you report what he says only repeat a fragment of it preferably out of context, whatever fragment can be made to look most evil.

And that, my friends, is standard propaganda technique just about everywhere. The Bush administration does it. I bet Ahmadinejad does it too, back in Iran.

The rule is...repeat nothing the official "bad guy" says, unless it is something that can be made to look evil, sneaky, or duplicitous.

Hmmm. Kind of sounds like what happens on this forum with people who attack and nitpick the statements of their political opponents, doesn't it? ;-) From the halls of power to the peanut gallery, the tactics of ill will are much the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:21 PM

" My point is that if you stifle his oratory, you have nothing valid to argue or agree with. "

You mean, like when the students drove out the representative ( invited!) from the Minutemen ( anti-illegal immigration) or disinvited him the next year???


I still say that

1. They had every right to have Ahmadinejad speak.

2. Columbia should lose all federal and state funding for their failure to allow ROTC and other non-liberal viewpoints to be presented on campus.


"freedom of speech does not protect speech you like, it protects speech you hate."

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:05 PM

I agree, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:00 PM

It's certainly proper to disagree with him. Or think he's evil. Or agree with hi (if you're sufficiently crazy). My point is that if you stifle his oratory, you have nothing valid to argue or agree with. And I'm thoroughly ashamed (not for the first time) of my old Alma Mater.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:57 PM

They probably have a few homosexuals in Iran...but he just hasn't met them yet, that's all. ;-) And I doubt that he will, either...at least not knowingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:52 PM

"Ahmadinejad said women in Iran ``enjoy the highest levels of freedom,'' when watchdog groups such as New York-based Human Rights Watch have accused Iranian authorities of jailing women's rights activists. "

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:51 PM

"``In Iran, we don't have homosexuals, like in your country,'' Ahmadinejad said in response to a question about why homosexuals face severe punishments. ``In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I don't know who's told you that we have it.'' "

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:50 PM

Yeah, right!

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:49 PM

Perhaps he feels that the tragic and undeniably awful events of the Holocaust have been used since 1945 as emotional fuel to precipitate further destructive and tragic events in other places. If he does feel so, I would have to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:43 PM

'"Ahmadinejad said more research is needed on the Holocaust, calling it ``a historical event that has become the root, the cause of many heavy catastrophes in the region in this time and age.''

He said his main point was that academics should be allowed to continue their inquiries as they do in other fields.

``I am not saying that it didn't happen at all,'' he said. ``This is not that judgment that I am passing here.

``My first question was if, given that the Holocaust is a present reality of our time, a history that occurred, why is there not sufficient research that can approach the topic from different perspectives?'' Ahmadinejad said.'



Posted without comment (but I reserve the right to return and say a few words when those who post here and agree with Ahmadinejad come on the thread).

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:21 PM

Well, I was disgusted by the remarks made by the president of Columbia... He showed no grace, he was rude and he represented all that the rest of the world sees as American arrogance...

He should have have either said nothin' or should have shown more grace...

This was another golden opportuntiy that America thought was a fine time to show its ass...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:12 PM

Evidently Bollinger was doing his utmost to try to ensure that the questions would not be answered.

Very much in the inquisitorial tradition of "Have you stopped beating your wife? Answer Yes or No!"

Incidentally, is he anything to do with the champagne of the same name? (Thread drift, I know...)

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 07:44 PM

"You exhibit all the signs of a petty and cruel dictator," Bollinger declared.

"Frankly, and in all candor, Mr. President, I doubt that you will have the intellectual courage to answer these questions," Bollinger said, as protesters demonstrated outside the hall.

This, m9ind you, was an introductionIn my initial post, I suggested that Columbia could do well to teach its studens some basic good manners. I was premature. Somebody should teach Columbia some basic good manners. And I hold no brief for Ahmadinejad.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 06:56 PM

"you only ever view anything from one perspective, coloured by your own biased view"

Yes indeed! A lovely statement that accurately describes virtually everyone one this site, Teribus, yourself included. Matter of fact, it accurately describes virtually every person that presently inhabits the globe. People are biased. I've never met anyone yet who wasn't. Biased people view things from one perspective, and they only investigate alternative perspectives in order to find some flaws in them that they can gleefully pounce on and fulminate about to anyone willing to listen.

We don't agree about politics, Teribus. We never will. You would know why if you were inclined toward some form of useful introspection and self-criticism instead of merely addicted to verbal attack. Don't get too worked up over the fact that we don't agree, because it can only cause you unnecessary stress. Just enjoy your beliefs, my good man, revel in them, and I shall do the same regarding mine. I know your views aren't gonna change anything. I know mine aren't going to either. The world will keep turning regardless, and presently we'll both be dead, and someone else will be loudly arguing about it in our places.

Bla. Bla. Bla. and more Bla. But what fun, eh? ;-) It beats playing darts and watching telly, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 06:54 PM

Just wondering. Was Ahmadinejad recruiting for the Iranian military?

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 06:48 PM

I have no problem with them inviting him to speak- but how about letting ROTC back on campus? Or are you saying that only SOME have freedom to speak???

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 06:42 PM

"Do you know what the USA got Iraq to do to Iran for 8 years in the 80's?" - Little Hawk

Silliest question that I have ever seen posed. The premise that the USA got Iraq to do anything to Iran in the years 1980 to 1988 is historically and factually incorrect. Maybe Little hawk could enlighten us as to what channel of communication was used to achieve what he claimed?

"There would also be no Al-Queda had the USA not sought out and trained Osama Bin Laden's religious fanatics in the 80's, and formed them into the Mujahedin in order to kill Russians for the USA in Afghanistan. Reagan's people did that. They gave birth to what is now Al-Queda. They gave birth to what is now the Taliban. And they did it to kill Russians and bankrupt the Soviets." - Little Hawk

Left wing myth, exploded by the senior officer in the Pakistani ISI who did seek them out, supplied and trained them, oh some of it was done with American cash, as well as more from Saudi Arabia, Republic of China and few other interesting sources including Iran. As previously stated some American cash filtered through Pakistan to the Mujahideen but not to Al-Qaeda, that was the brain child of:

"A wealthy Saudi named Osama bin Laden was a prominent organizer and financier of an all Arab islamist group of foreign volunteers; his Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK) funnelled money, arms, and Muslim fighters from around the world into Afghanistan, with the assistance and support of the Saudi and Pakistani governments. In 1988, bin Laden broke away from the MAK and formed Al-Qaeda."

Mega-Corporations eh? Spend too much of your time with your nose in comic books LH, try actually looking at history and studying it as it should be studied, you only ever view anything from one perspective, coloured by your own biased view.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 04:15 PM

Reading the press releases, it seems to me like the president of the university came off like an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 03:54 PM

Just remembered the title of the documentary about Michael Moore and the controversy over his invitation to speak at a college: "This Divided State." Well worth seeing! Check your local library. Also available from Amazon.com. It's a lesson in the meanings of free speech and academic freedom.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 03:46 PM

I'm with Dick Greenhaus on this one. Academia should be a bastion of free speech.The real test of free speech is allowing viewpoints that are repugnant to you. Ahmedinejad's views are repugnant to me, but if I was at Columbia, it would be an opportunity to hear him in person, and to possibly pose challenging questions to him (and I hope Columbia is planning Q&A after his talk). Remember, Students and community members in a town in (Utah, I think)) tried to prevent Michael Moore from speaking, arguing that his views were totally repugnant to the community, and that college fees should not go to him for a speaker's fee. Students supporting free speech won the battle, and he gave his speech.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 03:19 PM

BB-
You don't have to like, approve of or endorse someone in order to allow him to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 02:53 PM

Point of fact, LH:

How many people in Iran were killed by the "evil" shah ( or his secret ploice) during his TOTAL reign?

How many Iranians were killed by the fundamentalists in the first YEAR that they controlled Iran?

When you have those numbers, then talk to me about Iranian lives...

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 01:55 PM

One gesture which wouldn't do any harm would be for the USA to formally apologise for the shooting down on July 3rd 1988 of a civilian Iranian passenger jet flying in a commercial air corridor at 17,000 feet, resulting in the death of everyone on board, 290 people.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 01:41 PM

Free speech- IF they agree with you---or was that another thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 11:49 AM

"I would say, "Mr Ahmadinejad, that is a fine gesture on your part, and one that I and all Americans can appreciate. Therefore, I am going to go WITH you to the 911 site and we will both lay down wreaths together in memory of the innocent people who died on 911."

          LH - I suspect that's what FDR would have said too. It only goes to point out the degeneration of leadership in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:34 AM

Anyone see him on 60 minutes last night? Interesting.

Scary thing was, some of the stuff he was saying we agreed with.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 12:20 AM

Another cost of free speech:

In an interview with The New York Sun, the speaker of the Assembly, Sheldon Silver, said lawmakers, outraged over Columbia's insistence on allowing the Iranian president to speak at its World Leaders Forum, would consider reducing capital aid and other financial assistance to the school.

Well, that'll show them, for sure! Nah, nah...we're going to take away your allowance if you talk to him! Jaysus.

Jeri, me, too. Rapaire, well put.

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: mg
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:13 PM

I would let him go and lay a wreath with very high security and US dignitaries as well, and not a huge amount of publicity. I don't see what it can hurt. He might be compartmentalized and OK in some areas. I don't know. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Ahmadinejad at Columbia
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:45 PM

Bill D-
The incident you described may not have enlightened you about Mr. Rockwell, but I suspect it provided some worthwhile insights about the people around you. All in all, probably a good learning experience.