BS: Signs Of Sanity

Subject: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 07:01 PM

Mark Twain said:

For business reasons, I must preserve the outward sign of sanity.

-snip-

I'm curious. What are the signs of sanity?

And what is the most insane thing that you've ever done?

**

I'll go first.

I think that one sign of sanity is to be curious.

And another sign of sanity is to recognize yourself when you look in the mirror.

By these measures I guess I'm sane.


**

Perhaps the most insane thing that I've done is to post on Mudcat.

Just kidding.

;o)

**

Okay, it's your turn.

And btw, thanks in advance for posting to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 10:22 PM

Well, lets work backwards here... Einstein, who I have mentioned a time or two, defined "insanity" as "repeating a behavior expecting different results"...

Now if we take you defination of being "curious" then I believe we have indeed found the converse in that curious people tend not to repeat a behavior expecting differnt results...

But, there's another element and that is the clinical element... Sadly enough, while working as a social worker in "adult services" I delt with hundreds of folks who wer clinically insane...

Maybe we are splitting hairs between insanity and menatlly ill, here...

Nevermind that...

Okay, in the sane world of looking at insanity, insanity is one of those admirable traits that make us human... You know, like taking risks... But taling risks takes us back to "curious"... Yeah, I think there is a ""Wonder-what-happens-if-I-push-this-button" in everyone... Some more than others...

Now sometimes when we push the button things end up real bad and sometimes they end up real good... I thing that the sane person will push the button just to see what happens and if it's good then all is well... Back to Einstien... The insane person will push the button, bad stuff happens and rather than push another button, the insane person will pust the same button...

Kinda like music...There are certain things that just don't work... All musicans who are self taught know all about the what-don't-works and avoid them... 'Cept the insane musicans... We know who you are and would you please quit playing that obnoxious riff... It don't work...

Speaking of which, there are the curious and the insane musicans who just love to push the envelope even if they don't have a clue that in doing so they are going to have to grind up a lot of gray matter escapin' their own curiousity (which, remember is the cornerstone of sanity)... I'm not going to mention anyone here but if I did his name rhymes with Ron Leahey... You all know exactly what I mean...

So, sanity/insanity, insanity/sanity??? Fine line that wanders 'round keeping us all entertined, while also on gaurd...

Bobert (Sane, on occasion...)

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 10:30 PM

They are as the wings of doves, sanity and insanity.



Craziest thing?













                            And that's all I'm gonna say about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 12:08 AM

One standard phrase that deacons or other adults made when they offered prayers during religious services was that they "thank God that they woke up this morning clothed in their right mind.

For a long time, since I was a child and until fairly recently, I heard this phrase, but didn't try to suss out what it meant.

But now that I am older, I "get" the meaning of a person being "clothed in her or his right mind". And I think it's a remarkably creative descriptor of one sign of sanity.

And though this song was never sung this way, in the tradition of folk music, I'm thankful that I can say

Well, I woke up this mornin still
clothed in my right mind
I woke up this mornin still
clothed in my right mind
I woke up this mornin still
clothed in my right mind
Hallelu
Hallelu
Hallelu-u-jah.

It coulda been clothed the wrong way
Yes-es Lord
It coulda been clothed the wrong way
Yes-es Lord
It coulda been clothed the wrong way
Yes-es Lord
Hallelu
Hallelu
Hallelu-u-jah

It coulda wore no clothes at all
Yes-es Lord
It coulda wore no clothes at all
Yes-es Lord
It coulda wore no clothes at all
Yes-es Lord
Hallelu
Hallelu
Hallelu-u-jah

Well, I woke up this mornin still
clothed in my right mind
I woke up this mornin still
clothed in my right mind
I woke up this mornin still
clothed in my right mind
Hallelu
Hallelu
Hallelu-u-jah.

-snip-

{Of course, these types of songs are open ended, so any body may add another verse using that same pattern if she or he so chooses}.

Or you can pay this adaptation of that song no never mind at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 12:21 AM

Here's a new African proverb:

Sometimes you have to be light when things are heavy duty.


**

I started this thread because I was struck by the quote attributed to Mark Twain that I had read on a political blog this evening.
My sense is that Mark Twain meant that in order to succeed in business {and in the rest of society?}, he {and other folks} had to act in ways that society considered "normal".

I guess what I was trying to get at was that I think it's too bad that society doesn't have a wider range of normalcy. And it's too bad that society can't accept individuals who think, and talk, and dress, and act, {and look in the multiple layers of that word} different than what society considers to be the right way to think, talk, dress, act, and look.

**

I mean/meant no disrespect to folks who are struggling with conditions of mental illness.

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 12:47 AM

Sanity has emotional components and reasoning components.

In both vectors the most notable sign is correct assessment of the present situation.

Emotionally this means that emotions are appropriate to the actual dynamics of the situation in which one finds oneself. Curiousity is part of this because it is how you observe what is going on a round you and learn more about it.

It is less sane to be mad about a long-past situation. It is less sane to be wildly cheerful about a sad situation while it is going on. It is less sane to be full of fear when there is nothing to fear in the present. It is less sane to have no fear when facing danger. These are examples of emotional sanity of greater and lesser degrees.

In reasoning, using wrong data or a messed up sense of what is important, or dropping out the true sequence of events, or getting married to a false idea such as a generalized conviction that all Muslims are psycho or all women are control freaks is less sane than reviewing the information you are using for correctness, completeness, reasonable sequence, applicability, a correct sense of importances compared against positive purposes, and so on. When these things get screwed up, thinking goes cross-eyed and strange answers to problems are arrived at.

Another indication of sanity is the continued willingness to communicate, to discover new facts, and to compare viewpoints (curiousity again). Without these traits one individual tends to end up in a solitary individuated bubble of own opinion, and not fully engaged with others, which puts him out of the common mesh of agreements. This is a good way to get declared insane, whether one is or not.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 02:53 AM

I think that curiousity - curiousity in general, about how things work, why certain people believe in certain things or act in certain ways, about what goes on in an animal's head, just curiousity in general - is a pretty large component of sanity.

As for the insanest thing I have ever done, I'll never tell. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:58 AM

I've always defined sanity as the ability to learn from an action and its consequences. Insanity is repeating those actions, as Einstein put it, expecting a different outcome.

An insane act is a prejudged and conscious decision, executed with forethought and expectations of a result; or, as the Darwin Awards show us, with incomplete knowledge of how it will turn out but you do it anyway. Such acts are done with undiminished mental capacity and bodily control, and so have no known treatment other than education.

Mental illness on the other hand, is involuntary, mostly unwelcome, and treatable once the chemical imbalance has been identified.

You have a choice to act sanely, but you don't have a chance if you're a fruitcake like me.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Micca
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 07:44 AM

Talking of risk taking, in my younger days my party trick was to throw one of these scroll down to Green River Knife in the air and catch it point first in my teeth!!, You will be pleased to hear I NO LONGER DO THIS!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Bert
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:50 AM

Azizi, society can't accept individuals who think - period.

Insanity is repeating those actions, as Einstein put it, expecting a different outcome. Yeah, but Einstein never had to use Windows!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 12:25 PM

I think it is interesting how varied the definitions are. The reference to trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a smart quote, but it sure is not a very fundamental definition of sanity, or its inverse, IMHO.

For example, it is just as insane to obsessively alter a workable course of action, and expect the same outcome as if one had applied the action correctly!

It is just as insane to take NO action and expect a positive outcome, and, likewise, to take no action but predict a catastrophic outcome.

So that particular dog doesn't hunt far enough, even if he is cute.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 12:40 PM

Often enough doing what feels like exactly the same thing produces a radically different outcome. If you can live with that without freaking out, to that extent anyway you are sane.

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 01:35 PM

Remember - sanity is a LEGAL term, not a psychological one... has to do with going along with the majority. So if you heard voices in the Middle Ages, you were blessed, but now, you're insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 01:56 PM

"...catch it point first in my teeth!!"

My question is...how do you practice this?


I expect that in relating "the most insane thing they ever did" (if any do), people will translate it as 'foolish', 'dangerous', 'crazy', 'silly', or 'daring'...depending on what they have the gall to admit to.

I once ran out and jumped naked into a 3ft. deep snowbank...just because it was there. (yes, it was cold, and no, I didn't remain there long) But that hardly ranks as the most 'insane' thing I ever did. I'm not sure I can choose among so many.. ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: topical tom
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 02:00 PM

One man's insanity is another man's wisdom.If you can accept that truism you're SANE!

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:55 PM

Remember - sanity is a LEGAL term, not a psychological one... has to do with going along with the majority. So if you heard voices in the Middle Ages, you were blessed, but now, you're insane.

While there is a term "sanity" defined in legal processes it has nothing to do with the actual condition or lack thereof except to rely on a psychological capability grounded in knowing the difference between good and evil, roughly. Legally, of course, it has been and endless chatterbox full of maybes and speculations.

But I don't believe it is correct to say there is no measure or metric that can approximate the opriginal, pre-legalistic meaning of the word (healthy in mind).

Even though there are multipple variables involved, I think it is a useful term for communicating the relative degree of strength and clarity of mind in an individual, in a sort of composite sense.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:38 PM

Worrying about whether you are insane is probably the surest sign of sanity...............burble, burble.



I'm not mad I tell you, it's all the others.
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:40 PM

That then leaves but thee and me,
And I'm not sure of thee!

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:49 PM

And I'm not too sure of me either, so it must be thee that's mad.

GOTCHA
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 07:00 PM

Worrying about whether you are insane is probably the surest sign of sanity.

Or it might be an indication of a particular kind of insanity...

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 07:05 PM

That's a gooder, Don. I knew it had to be one of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 08:17 PM

I'm not mad I tell you, it's all the others.

How 'bout all those different meanings of the word "mad"...

Here's some definitions for that word from wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn :

huffy: roused to anger; "stayed huffy a good while"
-Mark Twain * ; "she gets mad when you wake her up so early"; "mad at his friend"; "sore over a ...

brainsick: affected with madness or insanity; "a man who had gone mad"

delirious: marked by uncontrolled excitement or emotion; "a crowd of delirious baseball fans"; "something frantic in their gaiety"; "a mad whirl of pleasure"

harebrained: very foolish; "harebrained ideas"; "took insane risks behind the wheel"; "a completely mad scheme to build a bridge between two mountains"

-snip-

* Good ole Mark Twain. I like that "stay huffy" expression.
I thought that was a new one, but I guess I was wrong.

****

I suppose that the "mad" in Mad Magazine uses the second and fourth definitions of that word.

Here's some information about Mad Magazine for those who aren't familiar with this "American humor magazine founded by editor Harvey Kurtzman and publisher William Gaines in 1952 [which offers] satire on all aspects of American life and pop culture; deflates stuffed shirts and pokes fun at common frailties."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Magazine

****

There's also a hip-hop definition of the word "Mad." In hip-hop usage "mad" "Mad" is an adjective that means "much"; "a lot of"

Here's a sentence that uses three different definitions for the word "mad":

"I have mad respect for the experiences of those early blues men and blueswomen. If I had to go through half of the changes those folks did, I'd either be real mad most of the time or I'd probably woulda ended up going stark raving mad."

**

Off topic, but in reference to that sentence, check out this article that was posted on another current Mudcat thread-
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/reese.htm

hat tip [h/t] to Kent Davis and this Mudcat threadthread.cfm?threadid=105529&messages=4 Nat Reese, West Virginia Bluesman

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 08:24 PM

I note that I changed tenses in midstream...Lemme try that sentence again:

"I have mad respect for the experiences of those early blues men and blueswomen. If I had to go through half of the changes those folks did, I'd either would have been real mad most of the time or I'd probably woulda ended up going stark raving mad."

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 08:50 PM

ODd that we have a rich legacy describing various kinds and degrees of derangement, but very little centering around descriptions of sanity itself.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:23 PM

While I admire the elegance of Einstein's definition of insanity as "repeating a behavior expecting different results", I wonder if its weakness is its very simplicity. Because by that definition, prayer is insanity, especially unanswered prayer. No room for any sort of faith in such a technocratic definition. No room for the paranormal. So I cannot accept it.

Quite the opposite, imagine a world where all is predictable, every last detail understood, every result expected...now, THAT way lies insanity, I think!

The most insane thing I ever did? At age 19-20, away from home and with no money, I left the comfort of a good scholarship and university for... I didn't know what. I had no positive view of my future, I only knew I didn't want the present direction I was on. I didn't have any ideas and no faith even when I jumped out of the boat into what must have been a bottomless ocean of disastrouc possibilities.

But then two heroes stepped up to my rescue and supported me unquestioningly, trusting me and my instincts when I did not trust them myself. They bought me time and gave me courage, and in the end I flourished. One of those two heroes was my father, may his God rest his soul. The other one many of you have met.

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Neil D
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:32 PM

"The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow Roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars, and in the middle, you see the blue center-light pop, and everybody goes ahh..."
          from On the Road by Jack Kerouac

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:36 AM

Glad someone else observed the differences between modern times and the Middle Ages.

Do you really think that if a 16yr old girl went to the government today, told them that the voices in her head said she would save the country from an invading force, that they'd give her high rank, a small army and follow her as she went off to war?

No. They'd sit her down quietly with a cup of sweet tea laced with Prozac until the men in white coats arrived to take her away.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Signs Of Sanity
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:22 PM

"Do you really think that if a 16yr old girl went to the government today, told them that the voices in her head said she would save the country from an invading force, that they'd give her high rank, a small army and follow her as she went off to war?"


Why not? It worked for this guy!