folksingers who quit,and why?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Sine nomine
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 03:51 PM

Loved the music
Loved the people
Loved the friendly informal atmosphere of the clubs (UK)

You'd think that would be enough, wouldn't you?

BUT:

Hated the motorway queues and monotonous hours of unscenic roads
Hated the rocketing price of petrol and the constant smell of traffic fumes
Hated the unproductive hanging around
Hated the increasingly competitive hustling for too few spaces and diminishing returns

A gig any distance away pretty much hi-jacks your life, and you spend most of your day (a) getting to the gig (b) waiting around for the gig to start (c) eating crap fast food while doing (b)

It just meant that I couldn't do anything else with my life with any measure of consistency, or spend enough quality time with people I loved. The whole day would often be spent in service of that hour or so of performing in the evening. And sitting in a car/van for hours is the bum-numbing PITS, even if you don't factor in the carbon footprint or the expense.

These polluting factors finally outweighed the joy and rewards of it. I could probably have put up with everything else - even the poor money - if gigging hadn't sucked up so much of the rest of my life into its downside. It was the time drain that really did for me.

Do I regret it? Sure
Will I always love that scene? Sure
Would I go back? No.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 03:39 PM

The Snail said "Understanding why anyone chooses to be a professional folksinger in the first place is useful background information."

Well, I chose to be because folksingers were the people I admired the most. They were my heroes. I wanted to be like the people I most admired...Dylan, Baez, and Buffy Sainte-Marie...and various others in that profession.

To me there was simply no more glorious thing a person could possibly be than a great folksinger!

I see them more the way I would see other people now...just regular people, that's all.

"Now, I'm just average, common too...I've just the same as him or you...I'm everybody's brother and son...I ain't different from anyone! No use talkin' to me......it'd be the same as talkin' to you!"   - Bob Dylan, from an amusing Guthrie-esque talking blues song he did in the early 60's.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 03:26 PM

There aren't a lot of "for real money" gigs, but contact Doug Hudson. He is the capo di tutti gigbookers around here. Didn't I say that before?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: stallion
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 03:24 PM

Ha Why did I start singing again, therapy, yup, therapy. I had a nervous breakdown and the doctor asked when I felt most relaxed, I said singing in the company of other singers, to wit he ordered me to give my job up and go out singing at least twice a week or I would be dead within three years, that was in 2002, I quit and I do and I am still here!
Peter

PS We would like to do some gigs in Kent, anyone interested?   mmmmm it was only a thought

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM

I love performing but a full time job running a folk club writing grandchildren and other hobbies makes it hard to perform very far from home. I cannot and do not want to stop, but we do not publicise ourselves. One day, it will become too much-not yet I hope.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 03:11 PM

I never became all that professional to begin with, but I did spend about three years of my early twenties in a full-time effort to "become" a musician/vocalist. 90-95% of the time busking on steetcorners, occasionally a few actual scheduled indoor appearances. Three years surviving without a single day job; surely that has to count for something, even if not real full-fledged "profesionalism."

The immediate and sudden end to this phase of my life was my arrest for draft evasion in late 1972, very shortly before the end of military draft on Jan 1, 1973. (Too long and involved a story to provide details here...)

Just over a year later, after accepting induction into the Army, petitioning for discharge as a conscientious objector, and eventually being denied the c.o. status BUT granted an honorable discharge "for the convenience of the government," I was no longer motivated to resume my quixotic quest for a musical career.

For one thing, I had gotten married in the meanwhile. In addition to the obvious economic factors, I felt it necessary to abandon the lifestyle I had cultivated as a performer because it just didn't seem compatible with monogamy.

As hard as I had found it to make any money in music, it had been unexpectedly (even ridiculously) easy to make new girlfriends, most of them interested in only the most temporary of relationships. It was fun while it lasted, but I had come to a point where I had really had enough and was ready to move on.

It's probably wrong to equate an innocent activity like musical performance with a particular set of behaviors, but that was my feeling, based upon my experience, when I first embarked upon a lifetime of day-job toil and of raising a family.

Much older and wiser now, I'm gradually getting back into performing, and I do look forward to a time when I can earn a little income from music ~ not enough to live on, that's not realistic, but something to supplement retirement.

Like Little Hawk, I don't "need" to perform anymore, nor to impress anyone. However, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that I absolutely need to sing, and over the years have found various different ways to satisfy that urge. Right now, these days, I'm hoping to develop a way to earn a few pennies in the process.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Flowerchild
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 03:03 PM

Once a singer....

always a singer whether one shows it to the public or not. I agree with The anon guests posting...depressive as it may be, it's the reality of finding places to sing, being heard in the first place whether that be on radio, gigs or festivals. The latter is depressing when big name bands are chosen to play in country folk festivals over the bloody good local folk singers... and when you get that elusive place to play, it's whether you earn enough cash to pay the band members and whether you can make enough to pay for the petrol home.

but nevertheless, a folk singer is a wonderful person to be around...

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM

Damn - missed an opportunity to go off into "What is Folk" and "What is a Folksinger"

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 02:05 PM

Some find the money pressures a pain, I believe.
Some find perceived or actual criticism a pain, I believe.
Some lose the muse, I believe.

It ain't "folk" but I know of a former sidesman with Joe Jackson who is now a professor of law.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:55 PM

"Family"
I didn't get married and have kids just to go out on the road every week end or for weeks at a time.
This is my second time around and subsequently, my second lay off.
I wouldn't change a thing.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:48 PM

I think that in the case of the UK the fact that most folk clubs and festivals are run by "amateurs" might have a bearing on the attrition rate amongst full-time performers (Remember the heated debate about this in the Melody Maker folk column way back?).

If you are a performer trying to make a living on the folk club circuit you tend to expect the organizers to be equally "professional" in their approach to running events. However, if the club organizer has a 9 to 5 job, a house, a wife and two kids to look after, the folk club has to be a hobby. Albeit an important hobby.

This, I'd say, has always been the strength AND weakness of the folk scene.

Personally, I know a few performers wo have done quite well over the years (supporting a family, paying off a mortgage, etc) but the are in the minority. Like the man said - don't give up your day job.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:24 PM

Not being a professional folksinger myself, I have no idea why anyone should quit so a little background research is needed. Understanding why anyone chooses to be a professional folksinger in the first place is useful background information.

Captain Birdseye's original posting contained a non-sequitur. Just because someone ceases to be a professional folksinger does not mean that they cease to be a folksinger, leave the scene and leave it creatively poorer.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:17 PM

A staggeringly high percentage of young entertainers quit the life every year;I don't know if a higher percentage of folksingers do or not. Show business is no business,,

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:10 PM

Folk music became commercial. It was usurped by the show business mainstream.
Everyone expected too much.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:03 PM

Snail,no,you must answer the question without hesitation, deviation or repetition,not make up your own questions.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 12:53 PM

mr happy.[whatdo youduring theday]was a reference BY JohnKirkpatrick[Ithink]to folk club organisers,who ask you this question when you have just travelled 200 miles to do their gig.
The point was/is that it is impossible to do anything else and be available for long distance gigs[200 miles etc]if you have another job,the question was not aimed specifically at you MrHappy.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 12:22 PM

Hmmmm...well, I quit performing awhile back, after gradually becoming less and less enthusiastic about it over a period of about 10 years, I guess.

It just didn't seem romantic and special anymore to do that, not like it once did, though I am still happy to go and see others perform now and then.

I no longer feel the urge to do it, and that's all there is to it. I enjoy playing some keyboard at home, however, so I obviously still like the music for its own sake, I just am not attracted to the performing aspect any longer...nor do I feel the urge to write songs any longer. I seem to have pretty well written all the songs that I wanted to at this point, and said what I wanted to say.

It hit me at a certain stage that it simply doesn't matter how many people you impress...or even if you impress anyone. It adds up to nothing in the long run, matter of fact. People forget about it soon enough, and they move on. The funny thing is, I had a father who spent his entire life trying to impress people...until he died at age 82. And it did him no good whatsoever, far as I can see, though he certainly impressed quite a number of people. I decided to get off that particular treadmill before I die.

It would be fun, though, to be that young again and think that there could simply be nothing more glorious than to get up on a stage, play a guitar, and impress the audience! ;-) It's like being a legend in your own time...great as long as you believe in it.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 12:13 PM

I was one who came out of the fifties coffee house scene in the US, progressed to the point of being a member of a folk trio, complete with a manager and professional bookings. It was early in the Viet Nam era. Our youngest member, our bass player and maybe our most creative influence in many ways, left for the Army. We had just won a spot on a USO tour to the far east in a San Francisco-based competition, so the timing was disasterous. I was starting a family and trying to finish college.

I decided to take a break from performing. From that point on, I performed occasionally as a single, but found fewer opportunities and fewer kindred souls with whom to work. Then, in 1975, I was involved in a bicycle vs. auto accident which severely damaged my left index finger (and other parts). It took a couple of years becore I could bar chord again, but not with the former dexterity. I am fortunate to be able to play at all.

My son carries on. He has the passion and willingness to make the sacrifice for his art. He works full time to support this wonderful habit. I now play for my own enjoyment and an occasional private get-together, but long ago realized I was not going to make a living at music. I feel blessed to have been involved when I was able.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: breezy
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 12:05 PM

when young it might be 'ego'

a way into the charts


fame

to get away from home and the wife and kids, no , thats for holiday reps

and then theres 'the other'

to get out of the classroom




your turn

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Grab
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 12:02 PM

For most musicians in any genre, it's not economical to be a professional musician. End of story, really.

And the way to make money in a goldrush is to be the bloke who sells shovels, not the bloke who does the digging. Which presumably is why Jacey and Brian Bedford now spend their time doing act management and studio production respectively, instead of gigging as Artisan.

Graham.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:55 AM

Does giving up being a professional mean giving up being a folksinger?

Turning the question round, why does someone become a professional folksinger in the first place?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:40 AM

It's kind've irrevalent what I do, 'cos I'm not a professional folk singer - just do it for pleasure.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: GUEST,Anon for professional reasons (sorry)!
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:32 AM

I decide to knock it on the head, deffo, about once every two months...

10 reasons to be uncheerful:

1) Being turned down flat by clubs that have never seen you is pretty demoralising. Specially when they say they're not prepared to judge you from a recording OR come to a nearby gig (and are not impressed by a massive gig list of other clubs, including loads of re-bookings, or pages of glowing reviews either). Telling us to call in and do a floor spot 200 miles away from home, when we're already away half the year is just insulting. That REALLY makes you want to quit!

2) Being turned down by clubs because you're too trad, or too contemporary, or you do your own material - when in fact you can do a whole evening of either (or any combination of the three). But if you suggest this they just think you're just being mercenary - and turn you down! Grrr!

3) Club organisers with answerphones on permanently, and people who don't answer emails. A polite 'no thanks' takes seconds and saves hours of wasted effort on our part trying to get through. You might think silence means 'no thanks' and we should just give up - but it frequently doesn't, and how long should you give it anyway? You can't start booking the next night of the trip till you know if you have a gig or not. And trying to pin down your options when half the maybes have suddenly gone to sleep is a NIGHTMARE! I always answer all emails from a real person. I think it's just rude not to.

4) Poor turnout because regulars who've never seen you assume they won't like you - because, err... they've never seen you. This is the wrist-slitting worst - what are you supposed to do, for God's sake? Go play eveyone's house?!

5) Not being able to fill your diary because there are simply not enough club gigs out there any more, and also way too many people wanting to play them (often for peanuts because they don't need the money).

6) The travelling's ok - the driving's not. Specially road works, accidents, other drivers, rain, fog, snow and being late.

7) Low fees. Most pros operate below the minimum wage. But clubs are small and club people don't want to pay very much for an evening's entertainment so we get by. But it's not easy.

8) Missing kids' birthdays and other special occasions.

9) Guilt about carbon footprint.

10) The narrowmindedness of some folkies, who are horrible to newcomers - artists and audiences alike.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:31 AM

In my case I teach music.

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:15 AM

What do you during the day?

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:12 AM

Do we know what other sorts of jobs the folk singers have?

For example:

Jez Lowe
Martin Carthy
Ralph McTell
Pete Coe
John Kirkpatrick
Sid Kipper

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: stallion
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:07 AM

OK as a semi pro I quit because,
I remember it well, I was last on and getting a fiver and a bed for the night (usual for late sixties early seventies)everyone who went before I thought were better than me and I did not not enjoy it one bit, the evening went disastrously and I decided to call it a day, I didn't want to put myself through anything like that again i had humiliated myself cos I really didn't want to be there. thirty five years on and with the "boys" I feel comfortable enough to do the odd gig but that night has stuck with me and haunted me for the last thirty five years. Not only that, on the strength of that one disaster the phone stopped ringing, good thing really I couldn't face an audience for a long time after that.
Peter

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:04 AM

Actually making a living (Rather than an existence) out of the UK folk scene is not easy ! Far too many performers have to have some kind of other income to pay for minor things like mortgages and food !
Tha immediately restrains how many gigs can be done , even with the sensible holiday Days available in UK Companies , and IF you have a family , you want to spend some leisure time with them !

Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 10:55 AM

Another possibility for some folks - especially in countries where things are not quite so compact, is the difficulty of the road. It's a tough life being away from home 30 weeks out of the year, driving 6-8 hours a day between gigs. It's difficult to hold onto relationships, raise a family, feel a sense of ordinary community.

Dan Schatz

Subject: folksingers who quit,and why?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 10:22 AM

On another thread Wee little drummer,asked a question about all the professional singers,who decide to pack it in.
If a lot of people decide it is not economically viable to be a professional folksinger,leaving the scene creatively poorer, should we not be trying to find out, the reason why.
Organisations like perform,have not lasted.
any alternative suggestions.Dick Miles