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Subject: Lyr Add: ANOTHER JOURNEY BY TRAIN From: The Shambles Date: 01 May 99 - 06:57 AM This song is posted with the news this week here of a right-wing organisation claiming responsibility for the casualties resulting from three 'nail' bomb attacks in London. The first one targeting the black community in Brixton, the second, the Asian community in the East End and the third, the Gay community, last night in Soho. The song is an account of a UK Channel 4 TV programme, from which the song gets it's title. It was the story of four young 'Neo-Nazis', from different European countries, taken on a train journey, meeting some Holocaust survivors and ending up at Auschwitz.
You may have thought that this would have changed their views a little, but unfortunately this did not happen.
Another Journey By Train
You enter the 'Gates of Hell', and you deny the fires,
Heads of stone,
Five men on the corner, oh how it tears my heart,
Hearts of ice,
One small lady and four big men, a brave thing to do?
Heads of stone,
Some of you don't understand, but some understand so well,
Hearts of ice,
Heads of stone,
Roger Gall 1995 |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 01 May 99 - 07:59 AM Thank you once again, Shambles, for your song- you have a way of reaching deep into the heart of the matter and I hope I can some day hear you sing some of your work! I've been hearing the terrible news about the bombs in London and wondering what it is that can make such things possible, here, there, and all over this world. I wish you peace on this May day- Allison |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Sapper_RE Date: 01 May 99 - 01:27 PM Nice, what's the tune and would you object to sing round performances? Bob |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Susan A-R Date: 01 May 99 - 11:47 PM Shambles, I had just come across another Roger Gall song, and was about to ask who he was. I'm a little slow this evening. Good stuff. I also would like to hear your renditions. Say, we should circulate a Mudcat tape at some point, just ad songs on at the end and keep it rolling around.If anyone is interested, just post snail mail addresses on my page and I'll get it going. I admit to serious post office phobia, but could overcome it briefly for this. Susan |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Lonesome EJ Date: 02 May 99 - 12:46 AM Great song, Shambles. You describe the type of blind and unthinking humans who enable darkness to reach ascendance in this world. Keep your torch burning, Brother. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: The Shambles Date: 02 May 99 - 06:59 AM Susan A-R Your idea is a very good one and I shall send you my snail mail address, forth-with, if not sooner and will look forward to hearing your contribution. As it was your idea it is only right that yours should be the first song.
It might be a good idea to start another thread for this? LEJ Thanks for the kind words. The impression that the film gave me was that (this is a generalisation of course), there were two types of these individuals. The ones you well describe, the same ones that I referred to as the 'heads of stone' and the more worrying ones with 'hearts of ice'. These are more intelligent and must know that the simplistic measures that they call for, have not and will not ever work and will only result in the sort of terrible, chaotic mess that we see today in Kosavo. They can only have darker and more sinister motives for their stance and actions. |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: John Thomson Date: 02 May 99 - 10:11 AM A good song is DA FURERS FACE by spike Jones and his City Slickers. Have a nice day! |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Tucker Date: 02 May 99 - 05:29 PM Or how about the Horse Wessel? |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: alison Date: 02 May 99 - 11:29 PM Hi, The idea of tape swap was suggested before.. but I don't think anything ever came of it.... here's the thread... check out the Send tunes online thread too... you could hear them via voice mail, the quality won't be great but it gives a good idea of how it sounds.... (save that visit to the Post office **grin**) Slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Margo Date: 03 May 99 - 12:11 PM I'm not surprised the song doesn't change those scoundrel's hearts. It's my personal opinion that racial prejudice in nothing more than having somethng outside to hate rather than look within. It's human nature to want to feel good about ourselves or see ourselves as good or right. But there can be no change in such a wicked heart unless that person first admits to or acknoledges the wickedness. Oh what a high it is to feel superior! To admit to being no better than others would be like a drug addict giving up his cocaine! I have no answer, but I really do believe that such wickedness is the real enemy here on earth. Egads! How did I get on this soap box? I'll step down. Margarita |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: DonMeixner Date: 04 May 99 - 11:28 PM I recall thirty plus years ago hearing Tom Paxton perform in Syracuse at the regent theatre. The first time I'd ever heard of him. He was promoting his fourth or Fifth album from Electra. "Morning Again". On the album was a song entitled "A Tousand Years". About the secret people who meet and plan the return of Naziism. Powerful then and powerful now. Don |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Steve Parkes Date: 05 May 99 - 03:44 AM I thought of suggesting we have a list of songs for swinging fascists ... to. Of course, that sort of attitude only makes us as bad as they are. Trust them to ruin a good joke! Steve |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Sapper_RE Date: 05 May 99 - 03:10 PM Tucker's posting reminds me that somewhere in the West Country, (that bit of Southwest England that juts out into the Atlantic) there is a village pub where the locals enjoy singing what they call the Hoarse Weasel Song!!! Apparently taught to them by a German music teacher who worked in the area. Bob |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: LEJ Date: 05 May 99 - 03:19 PM The idea of Songs for Swinging Fascists is kind of funny, despite the serious tone of the rest of this thread. The broadway show number "Springtime for Hitler" still puts me on the floor laughing. If you've never seen it, rent Mel Brooks' The Producers, his first movie. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Margo Date: 05 May 99 - 06:03 PM Hey LEJ, the Producers was a favorite in our household. Pretty funny for a family of jewish people, eh? (My maiden name's Rosenstein) Margarita |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 May 99 - 06:09 PM Lonesome, that film gets FUNNIER every time I watch it. How come Kenneth Mars (the playright in the film) never became famous? Every part he ever did was brilliant. Anybody see him in Young Frankenstein? or "Fernwood Tonite". |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: LEJ Date: 05 May 99 - 08:15 PM You bet, Rick! I remember him on Fernwood Tonight wearing a chin supporter. He was great as the posturing German uniformed official with the mechanical arm in Young Frankenstein. |
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Subject: Tune Add: TOMORROW BELONGS TO ME From: John in Brisbane Date: 06 May 99 - 03:31 AM I went looking for the music for 'Springtime For Hitler' and found 'Tomorrow Belongs To Me' by mistake. Under the circumstances it may be out of place in this thread, but I'll post it anyway.
Regards
MIDI file: tomorrow belongs to me.mid Timebase: 120 TimeSig: 3/4 24 8 This program is worth the effort of learning it. To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here ABC format: X:1
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: The Shambles Date: 05 Feb 00 - 02:07 AM Given the current situation in Austria I thought it may be a good idea to refresh this one, for our thoughts? |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: The Shambles Date: 05 Feb 00 - 06:07 AM I received these views in a personal message and I have the posters permission to post them as I feel they will be of interest. "First, I hate this type of politician that Jörg Haider is a prime example of. Second, however, I am worried much less about the new Austrian government than some of my friends sharing my general political stance. Haider is a populist and nationalist who makes a success from appealing to the lowest feelings of the nationalistic fringe (and even the neo-fascist fringe), taking serious every remark about lazy foreigners, dirty gipsies, stupid blacks, welfare queens, and whatever appeals to (wrong) gut feelings of right wing people. He then pushes these 'arguments' to a higher plane of argumentation, so low that his clientele still recognizes their outbursts of hatred and so elaborate that he still can say he only formulates concerns without really identifying with everything. This way, he describes a problem in a way that is acceptable from the extreme right mob to the liberal middle with second thoughts about the modern times, and then he poses as the only person able to tackle that problem he has helped to make a problem. If he has crossed a line (and he enjoys to do that often like telling that Hitler at least has a fine way of getting rid of unemployment) of acceptance and anyone with reason and moderation cries foul, then he'll perform one of his (many!) apologies with a tongue-in-cheek face. He never apologises for what he has said, he only apologises for the impact on others. He words those apologies very carefully so that his supporters still know what he thinks, the words are not taken back, but the protesters are appeased. Like when he had said nasty things about the French president, he then apologised not for what he had said, but said he was sorry that his words had had such and such an effect. The Austrians have a saying 'mir san mir' ('We are us') that means nobody really understands us but we don't care. Haider appeals to that nationalistic feeling very often. Last example: "We'll never get our orders from Berlin anymore" after a slight critique from the German foreign ministery. But is he dangerous? No, for several reasons. First, Austria has nothing of that potential of doing evil as Germany had 60 years back (may sound a bit nationalistic from me, but they're way too small to do any real damage). Second, I think Haider is opportunistic in his use of the slogans of the extreme right, that is he uses them for gaining access to power, but he doesn't believe in them himself deep enough to really want to do what he sometimes hints. Third, we have (that's now both Germany and Austria) now far deeper democratic roots than way back in the first postwar republics. That is, Haider would meet an enormous parlamentarian and street opposition if he really would try to lead the republic down the road to an authoritarian regime. There is not even a silent majority for such a development. He is much more like the populist Poujarde (Poujade?) in postwar France, like Peron in Argentine than he is like Hitler. I despise him, but he isn't really dangerous. In these days, he feeds on the opposition of the other European countries. This opposition will make him more popular in Austria than anything else. Mir san mir."
Wolgang |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Linda Kelly Date: 05 Feb 00 - 06:10 PM thank you for reminding us of this thread- I believe that the situation in Austria outlines some of the weaknesses in proportional representation. This fascist gained 27% of the vote but holds the balance of power. If I was Austrian I would be a very angry person right now. rumour has it that it was the austrian president who instigated the actions of condemnation by the U.S. and E.U., and he certainly looked a man with the weight of the world on his shoulders. small coutnries like austria will always feel threatened by cheaper labour from the ex iron curtain countries, they are easy pickings for the far right. |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Wolfgang Date: 07 Feb 00 - 09:10 AM Just a short recent citation from a fellow Austrian: Haider is "neither a neonazi nor a fascist, but an unscrupulous opportunist and populist." Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 07 Feb 00 - 09:47 AM Imperium Records is one source for Thule Music Sound Clip and Home Page and the WPWW has a link to Panserfeist Recordings White Power Site and links to StormFront
Both are quite educational. |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Amos Date: 07 Feb 00 - 10:27 AM We're stupid, we're stupid, our brave little band! We're blind and intractable, and weak in the gland. We don't care for thinking, or using the heart But we're real fond of drinking and laughing at farts.
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Ringer Date: 07 Feb 00 - 12:13 PM Ickle Dorrit: Would you, I wonder, think that PR was a bad thing if the party holding the balance of power, for whom 27% voted, was more in accord with your political views? The British Labour Party, elected under a non-PR first-past-the post system, has a massive majority but was voted for by (can't remember the actual figures) less than 50% of those voting. Could it be that democracy itself is at fault? |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: The Shambles Date: 07 Feb 00 - 05:55 PM Yes it may be a little faulty but I think it has proved itself to be a little better than some of the alternatives. The expediency of ALL politicians never surprises me though. I see tonight that Haider is comparing himself with Tony Blair!
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Amos Date: 07 Feb 00 - 05:59 PM Personally I think more good gets done from benevolent and enlightened monarchies, because democracies are always fighting against the inertia of the Lowest Common Denominator. On the other hand, it's awful hard to assure the continuity of a benevolent enlightened monarchy -- like Max' Mudcat environment -- while democratic republics have the mechanism for self-regeneration built in (if they use it). A |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: GUEST Date: 07 Feb 00 - 08:27 PM what are they saying in the sound thing up above, shut down voter's law, what does that mean? |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Rick Fielding Date: 07 Feb 00 - 11:17 PM Hmmm, charming little websites and record companies GG. I know the majority of my fellow Catters would rather not look at such garbage, but I've always felt it was good to keep informed and up to date with various lunatic fringes. Consequently I often listen to Rush Limbaugh. (Forgive me Sandy and Caroline!) By the way, I wonder where Tucker went to. I know he thought we were a bunch a commies, but he seemed to be enjoying himself. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: GeorgeH Date: 08 Feb 00 - 12:08 PM Hey, Wolfgang, you suggest: "Haider is "neither a neonazi nor a fascist, but an unscrupulous opportunist and populist." Sorry, but to my mind he's all four . . Actually, he puts me in mind of our own Enoch Powell. And - as was pointed out in Shambles' long quote (were you the source of that, too - while I don't think Haider will have much effect on the "national" scale I have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that his party's success will give succour to the most extreme right wing elements in Austria, and that members of certain minorities will suffer REAL harm, both physical and mental, as a result. It's a sad day. All the more sad in that the less extreme politicians brought this on their country by the continuation of quite unjustifiable policies of self-interest. G.
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Rick Fielding Date: 08 Feb 00 - 06:28 PM George, how long has Enoch Powell been around? I seem to remember hearing about him many many years ago. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 09 Feb 00 - 04:32 AM I thought he was dead (could be wrong), maybe it just feels like it. Famous for, among others, the inflammatory "Rivers of Blood" oration in the mid 60's, in which he raised concerns, to put it mildly, about the amount of immigrants going to England. When a certain oscurity fell upon him, he tried to revive his flagging career by standing for, and getting elected to, Parliament representing the north of Ireland constituency of South Down. He's not there anymore. B. |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Ringer Date: 09 Feb 00 - 05:40 AM He's dead (2 or 3 years ago?). Under what strange definition of fascism could Enoch Powell be classified as a fascist? He was decorated for exploits in WW2 whilst bearing arms against fascism. I think, Brendy, that you malign his motives for standing as an Ulster Unionist (forget precisely which UU party): he was thrown out of the Tory party for suggesting that folks should vote Labour because Labour then was strongly anti-European-integrationist (early 70s, I think). He was invited to stand as an UU because he strongly supported their Unionist principles. |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: GeorgeH Date: 09 Feb 00 - 01:09 PM Yes, he's dead, and not missed. By what definition of fascism is Powell a fascist? By any which regards ideas of racial superiority as essentially fascist. And the fact that, in his youth, he served in the British army and was decorated is an irrelevence. And, for that matter, many would see his standing of the Ulster Unionists as indicating AT LEAST an extreme right wing political position. For that matter, just what are the UU's "Unionist principles"? A desire for a union with the England of William of Orange, so far as one can tell. It's high time they noticed that THAT England no longer exists. His standing for the UUs was blatent opportunism on both sides; fortunately it backfired on Powell, "promoting" him to the long-overdue role of political non-entity. He was a gifted orator. I heard him speak once, to the Students Union when I was at University; it was notable how he tailored his address to his audience, seeking to appear as a "man of reason". But he was, above all, a self-seeking politician; his speech on that occasion emphasised that above all else. G. |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 09 Feb 00 - 01:30 PM "Illinois Nazis... I hate Illinois nazis!" -The Blues Brothers- LOL!! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Rick Fielding Date: 09 Feb 00 - 04:02 PM Thanks for the info folks. I did some checking on the net and there's quite a bit of info on the guy. He seems today to be seen mostly as the butt of a lot of comedians' jokes, somewhat the way Lord Haha, Oswald Mosely and the various heads of the KKK are in the States. Most of the really outrageous "haters" were highly accomplished soldiers in various wars, so perhaps they need to create a constant state of war in their own lives after the official shooting has been done. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Wolfgang Date: 10 Feb 00 - 12:01 PM George, I fear you are most certainly right that certain minorities will suffer real harm. We know that from Germany too, that some slightly right wing politician's talk may induce some much more right wing youth to inflict physical harm instead of just verbal abuse. Yes, Roger's post was citing me and my opinion on Haider. The other post from me was just a citation I found interesting, nothing more. I don't think it helps a discussion to use the strong words (fascist etc.) without discrimination and too quickly. For the minorities and potential victims the real treatment by Hitler and the potential treatment by Haider (even if the worst fears came true) would still make much more than a minor difference. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Ringer Date: 10 Feb 00 - 01:52 PM What evidence is there that Powell held views of racial superiority? |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Linda Kelly Date: 10 Feb 00 - 04:49 PM Sorry I have been away from mudcat for a day or two -yes Bald eagle I would still think proportional representation was a bad thing even if worked for my benefit. I do not surrender my principles to advantage myself. I do not pretend to be an expert on Powell, but i do not recall him targetting ethnic minorites like Australians New Zealanders and white Southafricans who also occupy jobs in this country -he implied Asian communities were taking our jobs and swamping our country-sounds pretty racist to me! |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: GeorgeH Date: 11 Feb 00 - 09:43 AM I think you are wrong to attribute the Austrian problem to Proportional Representation; general analysis is that the root cause of Heider's rise is the corrupt "carve-up" of priviledges between the two major parties . . no political system can be immune to conspiracies BETWEEN major players. And of course there could be a more complex reason for Powell's antagonism towards non-whites than an outlook of racial superiority, and the disdain for them implicit in how he spoke on racial issues could have had some other cause . . he was a very clever and shrewd man, not likely to be caught in overt statements of a belief in racial superiority. But his "crossing the rubicon/rivers of blood" speech was a chilling appeal to racist sentiment (and certainly NOT a contribution to rational debate). Next you'll be telling me that Norman Tebbit's not a racist, either . . . G. |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Brendy Date: 12 Feb 00 - 12:02 AM "I think, Brendy, that you malign his motives for standing as an Ulster Unionist (forget precisely which UU party): he was thrown out of the Tory party for suggesting that folks should vote Labour because Labour then was strongly anti-European-integrationist (early 70s, I think). He was invited to stand as an UU because he strongly supported their Unionist principles." So what, all of a sudden, makes you the big expert on what I think |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 00 - 06:46 PM A wolf attacks a flock of sheep, and slaughters manmy of them. So two sheep dogs are brought in.
The first says to itself": That wolf is a lot like me. I've got to be careful not to act like it."
The second says "That wolf is a vicious beast. I'm a gentle fellow by comparison, I only eat the odd lamb now and then."
I think one of most chilling things to come out of Herr Hater so far was his suggestion that he's got a lot in common with Tony Blair. Because there is just enough of truth in it. Glib vaguenesses about "The Third Way" for example. (Hater's a lot more like Margaret Thatcher in other ways of course.)
When words like fascist, Nazi, racist and extremist are thrown around, I find it just confusing. Moreover, once they are used, it seems to turn into a nitpicking exercise of people debating whether the exact word is accurate or not - which it rarely is. What is needed is to pay attention to ways of stopping an evil thing that is awakening, which is never exactly the same as the last evil thing.
If Hater were a straight out Nazi, he wouldn't be a problem. It's in the fact that he's not exactly that his danger lies.
And I think the biggest danger from Hater for the rest of us (not living in Austria, I mean) is that our leaders will be like the second sheep dog, and will use him as a disguise for all kinds of convenient nastiness on their own part. And we will sit around debating the difference between a wolf and a fox and a feral dog and a sheep-stealer.
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: Ringer Date: 14 Feb 00 - 01:54 PM On the contrary, George, I think Powell's "Rivers of blood" speech was a contribution to rational debate. Though my memory of it is more than a little sketchy now, I believe his thesis was that if immigration were to continue unchecked at the then rate then there would inevitably be a backlash; he didn't advocate a backlash. And if he can't be caught making overt racist remarks (ie if he didn't make them), why do you believe him to be racist? You'll have gathered that I admire the man: not for his racist leanings (if any - so far no one has produced chapter & verse) but for his wide scholarship, his elegance of phrase and overwhelmingly for his sound attitude to Europe. Brendy: my comment was directed at what you said not what you think, about which I know nothing. The only thinking in that paragraph was mine. |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: GeorgeH Date: 14 Feb 00 - 02:16 PM Sorry, BE, any contribution to rational has, itself, to be cool and rational. "Rivers of Blood" was neither. It set out to raise the emotional temperature of the times, and of the debate. Of course it didn't explicitly advocate a backlash; as already acknowledged, Powell was far too clever for that. But his intellegence is such that he cannot have been TOTALLY aware that the tone of his remarks were very likely to trigger such a backlash. So I consider him to have been a very dangerous racist. Of the attributes you ascribe to him I accept (only) that of his elegance of phrase. As far as I can tell his scholarship was deep but limited in its scope, and his attitude to Europe, while consistent with his racism, I find bizarre . . . I suppose it, at least, was not inconsistent with his "Ulster Unionism"; an illogical attachment to a "Great" Britain which - insofar as it ever existed - was utterly inconsistent with the financial and political realities of the post-war world. And attachment to that myth has done the mass of the British people a great dis-service! G. |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: The Shambles Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:16 AM The following may be of interest. Last night I saw an interview (the Jeremy Paxman one, on the link), with this man last night. He thought himself to be very clever. I think compared to some of the people he mixes with and whose views he shares, he may be considered so. In my opinion, such as it is worth, he is one of those whom I would describe, in the song as, a "Heart of Ice". |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: The Shambles Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:19 AM |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: The Shambles Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:24 AM |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: The Shambles Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:28 AM One more try. |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: The Shambles Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:32 AM . OR. If that don't work. http//news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_709000/709996.stm |
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Subject: RE: Song for Neo-Nazi groups. From: The Shambles Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:55 AM BBC Report On David Irving Trial, Outcome. If that don't work. I am referring to David Irving, who lost a libel case, yesterday in London. |
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