BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:59 PM

beardedbruce, you should consider what happened to the Jews who were expelled from the Arab countries to be a direct result of the ethnic cleansing that was being done on the Palestinians (which, by the way, began several months BEFORE Israel's war of independence). By the time Israel declared its independence, several hundred thousand Palestinians had already been ethnically cleansed. They fled their homes because the Jewish paramilitaries were committing massacres and other atrocities on Palestinian villages, and they didn't want to be next. And all of that happened months before the war that you say was being waged against Israel (in reality, that war was Arabs defending the area that had been alloted to the Palestinians in the partition plan. Almost all of the fighting took place in areas where Israelis were attempting to take land that had not been given to them in the partition plan). They did not flee out of fear for what other Arabs might do to them. That's another vicious, racist lie.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:31 PM

CarolC - I admire what you are attempting. I really do. But against Mr. Slippery and Mr. Shouting, one can make no progress.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:29 PM

I know, TIA. But what they don't understand is that the more people get an opportunity to read and hear about the other side of the story, the more people decide that they cannot in good conscience support what is being done, and what has been done to the Palestinians. Teribus and beardedbruce don't understand that by being so stubborn, they are actually helping the cause of human rights by providing people with so many opportunities to present this information.

Since I started commenting on these things about six years ago, the numbers of people who are speaking out against and who do not support what the government of Israel is doing to the Palestinians has grown dramatically and steadily. This is because the truth is more powerful, ultimately, than lies, if people get a chance to read/hear/see it.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:17 AM

"you should consider what happened to the Jews who were expelled from the Arab countries to be a direct result of the ethnic cleansing that was being done on the Palestinians (which, by the way, began several months BEFORE Israel's war of independence)." - CarolC

Ah, that would explain the dates then CarolC, because you think that this all started in the months "BEFORE" Israel's war of independence.

The time-line was as follows and includes the bit that you and your fellow travellers conveniently forget:

1920 - Arab attacks on Jews
1921 - Arab attacks on Jews
1923 - Mandate split into Transjordan and Palestine
1929 - Arab attacks on Jews
1936 - Arab attacks on British and Jews (Arab Revolt)
1937 - Peel Commission & start of Jewish retaliation
1939 - Arab Revolt ends. Jewish self-defence organisations are now experienced and in place.
1944 - Irgun attacks on British begin because of the terms of the "MacDonald White Paper".
1947 - Mandate draws to a close UN propose partition, 29th November 1947. Jews acccept the solution the Arabs reject it. Arab attacks on Jews begin 30th November 1947. This was the Civil War Period completely forgotten about by CarolC it lasted from 30th November 1947 until 15th May 1948 when the Mandate expired. If CarolC, or anybody else, attempts to convey the idea that this period consisted solely of attacks on Arabs by Jews then they deluding themselves and ignoring documented historical fact by the following organisations - UN, British Administration, numerous Jewish and Arab Historians.

15th May 1948 - 20 July 1949 - Israeli War of Independence, in which the Jewish settlers of Palestine fight the Palestinian Arabs assisted by the forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.

1949 - 1956 - Arab attacks on Israel supported and mounted from Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

1956 - Suez Crisis and Sinai War

1956 - 1967 - Sporadic attacks on Israel but threats of extinction continue.

1967 - Six Day War. The pan-Arabic nations camp five Armies on Israels borders and threaten annihilation. Israel launches precision pre-emptive attacks and take out her enemies air forces. Israel then uses her air superiority to defeat her enemies ground forces in detail

1973 - Yom Kippur War. Arabs launch surprise attack on Israel on two fronts from Syria and from Egypt. Israel after suffering initial reverses fights back and regains the situation forcing yet another UN Cease-Fire.

"Land for Peace" deal with Egypt still holds to this day

"Land for Peace" deal with Jordan still holds to this day

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:21 AM

But Carol these are the same few that still support the Bush Corp. & believe in it's war bid, it's good economic policy, his views on our health care conditions, our energy policies, his views on climate change, pollution & they continue to back his every play no matter the logic. They know not,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they are best left to the dust.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:30 AM

You're probably right, Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:56 AM

Oh Dear Barry, CarolC, what's the matter too many inconvenient facts getting in the way?

Toddle along, you've left far, far too many unanswered questions and inconsistencies lying around for you to stay on this thread with sort of credibility.

As you said though CarolC it does give the actual facts of the matter a good airing and just makes the ill informed emotional hogwash that you normally come out with that much easier to knock down next time.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:19 AM

You have to be careful with Teribus.

Let me take an example from another thread. Talking about Gordon Ramsey going over to supervise the cooking for troops in Afghanistan he writes:

"They were the guys of 42 Commando that Gordon Ramsey personally cooked Christmas dinner for in Camp Bastion Afghanistan"

Now anyone who can write that can believe anything.

Fortunately there is a "You Tube" video to show he didn't. But don't worry Teribus will argue in some way that the rest of the staff were not really there and Gordon Ramsey did it single-handedly - which is what he wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:46 AM

Dave,

Can you think up any reason why my son should lie to me about it?

Can you think up any reason why Gordon Ramsay and the guys of 42 would stage video and stills coverage of the event?

Now who to believe? my son who I know to be truthful, or some lying left wing socialist git who claims to have seen something that he thinks is semi-relevant on "You Tube". No competition really.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:17 PM

Of course you believe everything your son tells you Teribus.

Why should he lie to you? I am sure you taught him to tell the truth on all occasions.

Perhaps you could ask your son if his dinner was still hot by the time Gordon got around to him.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:59 PM

CarolC,

As usual, you ignore what I have said to make your accusations of lies, and of what YOU think my intent is.

I Repeat:

WHY didn't the Arab nations resettle the Palestinians? THEY had the West bank from 1948 to 1967- YET DID NOT ALLOW THE PALESTINIANS to settle there.
The PEACE treaty between Jordan and Israel set the border as the Jordan River- WITH THE WEST BANK under Israeli control.

IMO, YOU are the one who wants to be sure that the Palestinians are never allowed to settle , nor live in peace. By your implicit support of the continued warfare upon Israel, you are preventing any real chance of peace in the region.


Just my opinion- *** I *** won't insist that everything you say are lies, as you seem to think is an effective method of discussion.

I will listen to what you say, and judge it's veracity on what the FACTS are, from any sources I can find them. I have asked for your sources, and you say you gave them- WELL, I gave my sources too, and you have not refuted them other than by blanket condemnation as lies, without any backing.

When you do present information I am not aware of, I look into whether it is true- YOU just call it lies if it disagrees with what you want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:41 PM

Just got off the phone with him Folkiedave, he said it was just great and very much appreciated, anything else?

Now correct me if I am wrong Folkiedave but looking at your You Tube clip did you see GR cooking or supervising the cooking? Don't know about you but I saw him doing the cooking.

By the bye I did not say that he cooked everything himself, what I did say was that he actually cooked Christmas dinner he did not just stand back and supervise it.

Oh the photos you see him standing for - I've got one of those with GR and my son - and GR did pay for the bash himself. Now then Folkiedave what did you do to make our lads feel appreciated that Christmas, or any other?

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:54 PM

". . . lying left wing socialist git. . . ."

Fascinating!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:42 PM

What Teribus does is he makes stuff up and posts it over and over and over, and it doesn't really matter how many times you debunk his lies and fabrications, he'll just keep repeating them, and then, when someone he's doing this to stops participating, he declares himself the victor. He doesn't realize that he's actually working counter to his own agenda in doing this, because most other people can see this tactic for what it is, and they can see for themselves that he's not credible.


WHY didn't the Arab nations resettle the Palestinians?

I've already answered this one, beardedbruce, more than once.

They have no responsibility to resettle the Palestinians because those Palestinians belong in their own areas, and not in those other Arab countries. Israel has the responsibility to resettle the uprooted Palestinians. No one else has this responsibility. The United Nations and international law actually require Israel to allow the Palestinians to return to their areas or orign.

One of the problems with absorbing the Palestinians into the other countries is that, despite the racist concept that the government of Israel has of "Arabs" (ie: that all "Arabs" are the same and interchangeable), there are many ethnic groups within the larger group that we call "Arabs", and to force other countries to absorb large numbers of an ethnic group that doesn't come from there causes those countries to become unstable. Other problems are the fact that many countries in the Middle East are resource poor... particularly in terms of water. And Israel is doing everything it can to try to take water away from the neighboring countries. So the problem is compounded.

But the bottom line is that Israel is the only country that has the responsibility under international law to allow the Palestinians to return to their home areas.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:50 PM

By your implicit support of the continued warfare upon Israel, you are preventing any real chance of peace in the region.

I don't support any kind of warfare, against Israel or any other country, implicit or otherwise. I do, however, support stopping all welfare payments to Israel, and using the UN to sanction Israel in terms that it cannot continue to ignore. But that's a very different thing that warfare. You, on the other hand, explicitly support continued warfare by Israel against its neighbors, and the continued ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. And that is what is going to continue to get people killed.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:13 PM

Let me try that past you again Teribus - though I realise you have difficulty with the English language.

You said:

"They were the guys of 42 Commando that Gordon Ramsey personally cooked Christmas dinner for in Camp Bastion Afghanistan"

Yep he did some of the cooking. You said he did it all. That's what your words mean.

If I personally stuff a turkey it means I do it myself; if I personally cook a roast potato it means I did it myself; if I personally boil a brussel sprout it means I have little taste as far as vegetables are concerned, only that I blindly follow tradition.

Of course just like Alice in Wonderland you can claim words mean what you say they mean.

But that's nothing new for you.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:32 AM

Dave, the story was true.
Clearly he did cook for them, obviously he did not do it all alone.
You are being pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:40 AM

Sorry Don, in the light of Dave's last post it should have been - "pedantic, lying, left-wing, socialist, git"

"What Teribus does is he makes stuff up and posts it over and over and over, and it doesn't really matter how many times you debunk his lies and fabrications" – so asserts CarolC

You mean sort of like what you do regarding "Conspiracy Theories" and the WTC7 CarolC?

But just to take stock let's look at some of this "Stuff" that CarolC says I have made up:

1. That way, way back in the mists of time, on 1st March 1920, during the very early days of the Mandate a bunch of Bedouin tribesmen launched an unprovoked attack on the villagers at Tel Hai. Those Jewish settlers were living perfectly peacefully, they had not dispossessed anybody of anything, and had a perfect legal right to be there having bought the land that they lived on and farmed for some 20 to 30 years.

Question: Did I make that up? CarolC appears to say so, so according to her logic she must be right - Unfortunately history and recorded fact happen to confirm my version of events. Any doubt about that look it up I have given names, place and date, simple enough to find out and judge for yourselves.

2. In April of the same year (4th to 7th April) in Jerusalem inflamed by lies deliberately told about Jewish attacks on Arabs. A Palestinian Arab mob, chanting "Palestine is our land, the Jews are our dogs!" and ""Muhammad's religion was born with the sword", rampaged through the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem attacking and killing Jews and looting and destroying their property. These were known as the Nabi, or Nebi, Musa Riots, the ensuing attacks were totally unprovoked, and any feelings of anxiety or betrayal felt on the part of the Arabs of Palestine were down to the actions of the British Military Authorities and British Government. But British soldiers tend to shoot back when attacked and they do not possess much in the way of loot, so the Palestinian Arabs attacked the Jews, who they knew damn well did not have the means to fight back and did have possessions worth looting.

Question: Did I make that up? Not according to documented eye-witness accounts and historical fact I didn't.

3. Between the 1st and 7th May 1921 there were the Jaffa Riots and the ensuing attacks on the villages of Rehovot, Kfar Saba, Petah Tikva, and Hadera. Well documented examples of Arabs mounting unprovoked attacks against Jews living peacefully in the community. Who had every right to be there having legally bought, settled and worked their land for decades.

Question: Did I make that up? Don't think so, in fact I know that I didn't make it up.

4. On 1st November 1921 again unprovoked attack on Jews in Jerusalem by Palestinian Arabs, again well documented – Not invented or made up at all, in fact it resulted in calls for the removal and replacement of the British Commissioner in Jerusalem Ronald Storrs.

5. Arab Riots of 1929 – Made up – Naw don't think so

6. The 1936 to 1939 Arab Revolt and the Peel Commission – All invented by me says CarolC – don't know how honest anybody is going to be with themselves, but look it up and find out whether I did make it all up.

Note: My sources tend to be encyclopedias, official histories, biographies, eye-witness accounts. CarolC's sources tend to be bloggs and highly partisan bloggs at that, in this thread she got her information the a site called "the web fairy", even down to the completely inaccurate and erroneous bit about the Israelis being responsible for the first hijacking.

The Palestine Mandate was set up in order to recreate a Historic National Homeland for the Jews within the geographical area known as Palestine. Note it was a "Homeland" it was not, nor was it ever, intended to be an independent Jewish State - So much for intentions, and the road to Hell is paved with many very good ones.

The Mandate to see this through was given to Great Britain by the League of Nations. Britain split the Mandate in 1923 in a deal with the local Arab tribes, this established an area from which Jewish settlers were excluded that consisted of 75% of the Mandated Territory. This area became known initially as Transjordan which became the present day Kingdom of Jordan. The remaining 25% of the Mandate retained the overall area's name of Palestine in which it was Britain's obligation under the terms of the Mandate to establish this Jewish Homeland.

Between the years 1920 and 1937 it became obvious to all parties that the Palestinian Arabs would not accept Jewish settlement and that they regarded the area now known as Palestine "theirs". There could therefore be no Jewish Homeland created in a "shared" territory so a two state solution was proposed first by the British (Peel Commission 1937) then by the UN in 1947.

The Israeli War of Independence of 1948 to 1949 saw certain sections of what was previously the land known as Palestine invaded and occupied by "foreign" Arab Forces. The Egyptians occupied Gaza and the Jordanians occupied the area now commonly known as the "West Bank". Those areas roughly equated to slightly less than the sections of the country that were supposed to be the Palestinian Arab State of Palestine under the UN 1947 Plan that the Arabs had rejected.

Now this is the bit that I cannot for the life of me understand. The Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis and Lebanese all fought alongside the Palestinian Arabs against the Israelis during the Israeli War of Independence. The Egyptians and the Jordanians captured the land that should have been the Palestinians under the UN 1947 Plan, which more or less did establish the boundaries for the 1949 Armistice which ended the War.

The Egyptians and Jordanians were to hold those occupied lands from 1949 to 1967. During that time they packed the Palestinian Arabs into refugee camps and did not allow them to settle or establish themselves. Can you tell us why CarolC? It most certainly was not Egyptian or Jordanian land they were on it was Palestinian Land, so why didn't the Egyptians and Jordanians just give the Palestinian Arabs that land and help them – Can you tell us why the Palestinian Arabs were bundled into those camps, established on Palestinian soil, and condemned to live in poverty by their erstwhile allies and friends. This by the bye is the land that they are talking about now as the separate Palestinian State – inference being here CarolC that all this could have been done and dusted in 1947 if the Arabs had accepted the original UN proposal.

One simple fact that has to be recognised in order for there ever to be any solution. That all the peoples of the region have to acknowledge and recognise Israel's right to exist as a free and sovereign nation and that her people have the right to live their lives in peace, free from all threats and acts of violence.

As far as that goes CarolC, here's some more stuff that I didn't make up:

"The blood of Imad Mughniyeh will make them [Israel] withdraw from existence." - Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah

"We will soon witness the destruction of the cancerous scum of Israel at the strong, capable hands of Hezbollah". - Iran's Revolutionary Guards leader, Maj-Gen Mohammad Jafari.

OK Folks whose attitude has got to change before any real meaningful dialogue can take place? I don't know about you but to me it is as plain as a pike-staff.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 06:04 AM

Dave, the story was true.
Clearly he did cook for them, obviously he did not do it all alone.
You are being pathetic.

Teribus believes in holding people to account for what they write and I am simply doing the same.

He did not write "Gordon Ramsey cooked for them" he wrote "..........he personally cooked...............".

And I wasn't being pathetic, I was being pedantic.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 07:52 PM

"You, on the other hand, explicitly support continued warfare by Israel against its neighbors, and the continued ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. And that is what is going to continue to get people killed. "

No.

I support the right of Israel to defend itself against attacks, such as the daily rockets from Gaza. I do not support ethnic clensing any more than you do, in your silence on the removal of Jews from the West Bank ( when under Arab control) and from Arab nations.

When YOU demand that those Jews get their property back, I will demand that the Palestinians who left Israel get their property back- AS LONG AS THEY BECOME ISRAELI CITIZENS, as was offered to them ( and refused by them) in 1948.


My questions was why did the ARAB nations not settle the palestinians when the ARAB nations controlled the West Bank and Gaza? If it was NOT Palestine, then why are the Palestinians asking for it now? If it was, then Jordan and Egypt should have let the Palestinians settle there, instead of keeping tem in camps and breeding dispair and misery.

Notice that under the PEACE treaty between Jordan and Israel, the eastern border is basically the Jordan river, the EASTERN edge of the West Bank. Jordan thus acknowledged that it had no claim to the West Bank.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:00 AM

Teribus, every time I Google the stuff you put in here on this subject, I almost always end up at the same small bunch of supremacist hate-mongering sites, and frequently, those are the only sites that come up.

Unlike you, I put many hours of time and effort into the posts I make on this subject. And also, apparently unlike you, I have a lot of work to do. So you will have the last word in this thread. But it will still be a lie.


beardedbruce, I haven't demanded that the Palestinians be given their property back. I have only said that they should be allowed to live in the areas from which they originated. I know for a fact that Jews are already allowed to live in the areas in the West Bank where there were once Jews living, and many Jews currently do live there, although they are not necessarily the same people, but at least the Jews who left there can return if they want to. But Palestinians are only allowed to live in a very small percentage of the West Bank at this time, and not only are none of the Palestinians who originally fled from what is now Israel allowed to go back there to live, even the ones who fled from their homes and stayed in Israel are not allowed to even buy back the land that was taken from them. So it is you who are being inconsistent and not me.

The Arab countries had every reason to expect that Israel would allow the Palestinians who were living in refugee camps to return home, since it was a violation of international law, the Geneva Convention, and UN Resolutions for Israel to prevent them from doing so. So the 'Arab' countries to which you refer, did not have any reason to settle those Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:28 AM

"So you will have the last word in this thread. But it will still be a lie." - CarolC adherent of "thewebfairy" school of truth (Israeli's performed the first aircraft hijacking)

So the following never happened

1920 - Arab attacks on Jews
1921 - Arab attacks on Jews
1923 - Mandate split into Transjordan and Palestine
1929 - Arab attacks on Jews
1936 - Arab attacks on British and Jews (Arab Revolt)
1937 - Peel Commission & start of Jewish retaliation
1939 - Arab Revolt ends. Jewish self-defence organisations are now experienced and in place.
1944 - Irgun attacks on British begin because of the terms of the "MacDonald White Paper".
1947 - Mandate draws to a close UN propose partition, 29th November 1947 - 1948. Palestine Civil War. Jews acccept the UN partition solution the Arabs reject it. Arab attacks on Jews begin 30th November 1947. This was the Civil War Period it lasted from 30th November 1947 until 15th May 1948 when the Mandate expired.

15th May 1948 - 20 July 1949 - Israeli War of Independence, in which the Jewish settlers of Palestine fight the Palestinian Arabs assisted by the forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.

1949 - 1956 - Arab attacks on Israel supported and mounted from Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

1956 - Suez Crisis and Sinai War

1956 - 1967 - Sporadic attacks on Israel but threats of extinction continue.

1967 - Six Day War. The pan-Arabic nations camp five Armies on Israels borders and threaten annihilation. Israel launches precision pre-emptive attacks and take out her enemies air forces. Israel then uses her air superiority to defeat her enemies ground forces in detail

1973 - Yom Kippur War. Arabs launch surprise attack on Israel on two fronts from Syria and from Egypt. Israel after suffering initial reverses fights back and regains the situation forcing yet another UN Cease-Fire.

Incidently you have yet to refute anything I have stated regarding the events listed above, or show any of the above to have been lies. The fact that they happen to rather inconvenience your arguement and portrayal of the Palestinian Arabs as being the poor hard done by creatures you paint them to be I take it as being purely incidental.

Irrespective of the time and effort you say that you put in to answers it seems to be more of an attempt to evade answering direct questions - Why did the Egyptians and the Jordanians invade and occupy land that belonged to Palestine, occupy it from 1948 to 1967 and force the Arab Palestinians into refugee camps? It was after all their land, it did not belong to either Egypt or Jordan. Had they done so, as far back as 1948 the whole of the West Bank and the whole of Gaza would have been settled by Palestinian Arabs. Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't that what would now constitute the Palestinian State that all these initiatives and "road maps" are supposed to be leading to?

Even if the Palestinian Arabs and the Israelis reach some sort of agreement, the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah will continue to murder Israeli citizens, exactly as their forefathers did in 1920 and 1921. If you doubt that take a look at their latest threats regarding "open war".

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:26 AM

CarolC adherent of "thewebfairy" school of truth (Israeli's performed the first aircraft hijacking)

This coming from Teribus, adherent of "thewebfairy" school of truth who wrote this lie (the only reason I even got involved in this thread in the first place)...

The area now called "The West Bank" - originally part of Palestine restricted to Jewish Settlement

...and having been caught with his knee-britches down (again) with this lie, he then floods the thread with hundreds more lies, so that nobody who actually has a life could possibly devote the time and effort needed to effectively debunk them. Nevertheless, they have been effectively debunked by many historians (most of them Israeli historians).

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:41 AM

This tactic of Teribus' is a very effective one, by the way, if what one has in mind is to spread racist, hate-mongering lies.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:07 AM

CarolC,

You state :" I know for a fact that Jews are already allowed to live in the areas in the West Bank where there were once Jews living, and many Jews currently do live there, although they are not necessarily the same people, but at least the Jews who left there can return if they want to. But Palestinians are only allowed to live in a very small percentage of the West Bank at this time, and not only are none of the Palestinians who originally fled from what is now Israel allowed to go back there to live, even the ones who fled from their homes and stayed in Israel are not allowed to even buy back the land that was taken from them."

Can you provide any evidence, beyound your "knowledge"? Have you ever looked at a map of the West bank, and seen the area that is presently disputed ( Between Israeli settlements and the proposed Palestinian state)? I think the amount that is "open" ( and when was it prohibited- only between 1948 and 1967?) to Palestinian settlement is by far the greater area.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:33 AM

"The area now called "The West Bank" - originally part of Palestine restricted to Jewish Settlement"

Far from being a lie CarolC what was meant by the statement given above has been more than adequately explained a number of times on this thread alone. But just so as you get it fixed in your mind clear as crystal it will be explained one more time:

The Palestine Mandate as handed to the British to Administer on behalf of The League of Nations extended from Iraq/Syria Border in the North to the border of Saudi Arabia in the East, the Gulf of Aquaba in the South and the Mediteranean in the West.

Subsequent to the Arab attacks on the Jewish population in 1920 and again in 1921 and to make good promises made during the First World War. Britain split the Palestine Mandate Territory in 1923. The degree of the split was 25%/75%, the former (25% of the area) being named Palestine and the latter being named Transjordan. The former, the area now known as Palestine was the area of the Mandated Territory that anybody including the Jews could settle in, it was also the area in which Britain was obligated by the terms of the Mandate to assist in establishing a "National Homeland" for the Jews. The latter (75% of the Mandated Territory), the area now known as Transjordan was the area that could not be settled by Jews. Therefore the area that the Jews were restricted to was the area now known as Palestine. Now is that perfectly clear, it is to everybody else, including the populations of both countries today as evidenced by there being a 16% total population of Israel that is Arab, while in Jordan, the kingdom that Transjordan became, there is, by law, a 0% population of Jews.

I do not believe that I have ever used "thewebfairy" as a source. You on the other hand quote huge swathes of it including the lie that the Israelis were responsible for the first hijacking.

By the way CarolC, we are still waiting for an answer to these questions:

"Why did the Egyptians and the Jordanians invade and occupy land that belonged to Palestine, occupy it from 1948 to 1967 and force the Arab Palestinians into refugee camps?"

"Why didn't the Egyptians and Jordanians allow the Palestinian Arabs to establish themselves and settle the Palestinian land taken by them in 1948? And why didn't they help them?"

Your only form of debate seems to be absolute statement followed by flat contradiction, followed by personal abuse. On the thread re Willie Nelson and the WTC attacks another 'catter was 100% on target when he said of you:

"...evidence means nothing to you. You are so married to your delusions that evidence, no matter how clear and irrefutable, will not move you off your position."

Your persecution complex is showing CarolC, quite a number of times on this thread you have called me a liar, so far you have failed miserably to make any headway in proving that to be true.

Now then tell us all again how none of this ever happened:

1920 - Arab attacks on Jews
1921 - Arab attacks on Jews
1923 - Mandate split into Transjordan and Palestine
1929 - Arab attacks on Jews
1936 - Arab attacks on British and Jews (Arab Revolt)
1937 - Peel Commission & start of Jewish retaliation
1939 - Arab Revolt ends. Jewish self-defence organisations are now experienced and in place.
1944 - Irgun attacks on British begin because of the terms of the "MacDonald White Paper".
1947 - Mandate draws to a close UN propose partition, 29th November 1947 - 1948. Palestine Civil War. Jews acccept the UN partition solution the Arabs reject it. Arab attacks on Jews begin 30th November 1947. This was the Civil War Period it lasted from 30th November 1947 until 15th May 1948 when the Mandate expired.

15th May 1948 - 20 July 1949 - Israeli War of Independence, in which the Jewish settlers of Palestine fight the Palestinian Arabs assisted by the forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.

1949 - 1956 - Arab attacks on Israel supported and mounted from Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

1956 - Suez Crisis and Sinai War

1956 - 1967 - Sporadic attacks on Israel but threats of extinction continue.

1967 - Six Day War. The pan-Arabic nations camp five Armies on Israels borders and threaten annihilation. Israel launches precision pre-emptive attacks and take out her enemies air forces. Israel then uses her air superiority to defeat her enemies ground forces in detail

1973 - Yom Kippur War. Arabs launch surprise attack on Israel on two fronts from Syria and from Egypt. Israel after suffering initial reverses fights back and regains the situation forcing yet another UN Cease-Fire.

By the bye CarolC here's what the Peel Commission had to say in 1937 about land held by the Jewish Settlers:

"The shortage of land is due less to purchase by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population. The Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was bought." - Source Peel Commission Report of 1937.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:27 PM

Hebron is one example, beardedbruce.

http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=74195

And anywhere in the West bank where there are Jewish-only settlements. This map shows where they are. The black and blue areas are the Jewish-only (apartheid) settlments and Jewish controlled areas, and the white areas are the Jewish-only (apartheid) roads.

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.jpg (Click on the map to enlarge it.)

Palestinians are not allowed to either live in, or drive on these areas. However, Jews also can and do live in Palestinian villages side by side with Palestinians in the West Bank, pretty much anywhere they want to. Neta Golan is only one example of such people.

http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-golan171004.htm

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:35 PM

The distinction that I think is lost on you, beardedbruce, is that you seem to think that Jews can only live in the Jewish-only (apartheid) settlements in the West Bank. This is not true. The only thing Jews cannot do in the Palestinian areas of the West Bank, is exclude Palestinians (the way they do in the settlements). Jews can and do live among Palestinians in Palestinian villages and Palestinian areas.

What you are proposing is that Jews should be allowed to exclude Palestinians from all of the West Bank. This is ethnic cleansing, and this is why I keep saying that you support ethnic cleansing. You believe that Jews should be allowed to prevent Palestinians from living anywhere at all in any of the areas where they (the Palestinians) originally come from. That not only conforms to the definition of ethnic cleansing, it also conforms to the definition of genocide, since the destruction of an entire way of life is also a part of the definition of genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 03:21 PM

The on the Map shown in your middle link CarolC has the initials RC = Refugee Camp. Now as this map shows the area of Palestine known as the West Bank, and we know that the Israeli's have built no Refugee Camps in the area:

"Why did the Jordanians invade and occupy land that belonged to Palestine, occupy it from 1948 to 1967 and force the Arab Palestinians into refugee camps?"

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:11 PM

Teribus, the refugee camps are the 'home' of Palestinians who fled what is now Israel proper, and ended up in the West Bank.

"Why did the Jordanians invade and occupy land that belonged to Palestine, occupy it from 1948 to 1967 and force the Arab Palestinians into refugee camps?"

As I said before (several times already, Teribus), Jordan had worked out a deal with members of the Jewish leadership (most notably, Golda Meir) in which Jordan agreed to not attack any of the areas allotted to Jews in the partition plan (and with the exception of some parts of the Jerusalem's Jewish quarter, they honored this agreement fully), and in return, Jordan would take the West Bank. I do not approve of this deal, and I think the Palestinians have a valid complaint against Jordan for having done this. However, I am confident that had Jordan not struck such a deal, the West Bank would have been taken by Israel in the 1948/1949 war. The Arabs did not attack any areas that had been allotted to Jews in the partition plan. They only fought in areas where Jews were trying to take land that had been allotted to the Palestinians in the partition plan.

The Palestinians ended up in the refugee camps because there is only just so much room and there are just so many resources in the West Bank, and Jordan had every reason to expect that the refugees would be allowed to return to where they came from originally, since Israel was in violation of international law, the Geneva Conventions, and UN Resolutions in preventing them from doing so.

This is something that I have even posted previously right here in this thread. This is why I have no time for your snaky bullshit, Teribus. You just keep asking the same dishonest questions over and over and over as if you have never received a response to them the previous times you posted them. When you're not actively lying, you're trying to obfuscate because your racist hatemongering is a bankrupt ideology, and has no legitimate arguments to support it. Fortunately for the world, this ideology is dying out (slowly and agonizingly, unfortunately, but dying out nevertheless) as well it should.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:43 PM

By the way, the Palestinians who ended up in refugee camps in the West Bank were the ones who had fled their homes in what is now Israel. The Palestinians who originally came from the area that is now the West Bank remained in their homes until Israeli settlements began squeezing them out of their homes, a process that continues to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 06:06 PM

"The Palestinians ended up in the refugee camps because there is only just so much room and there are just so many resources in the West Bank," - CarolC

So what you are basically saying is that the Palestinian State that everybody is chatting about now is unviable? I also note that since 1988 when the Jordanians washed their hands of the "West Bank" the Palestinians themselves retained the Refugee Camps. What exactly did Tosser Arafat do to lighten the load and bring any sort of improvement or benefits to "his people" - Damn all except stuff the millions in international aid into his bank accounts. You see both sides preferred the "Palestinians" in Gaza and in the West Bank to be in those camps. The Israelis because they knew at anytime where the trouble was going to start, and Arafat because they were a source of propaganda and income. Even the Palestinian Arabs who lived in Gaza and the West Bank preferred their fellow Palestinian Arabs to be couped up in those Camps, because holed up in those Camps ensured that some aid would trickle down through Arafats grasping fingers - His Uncle by the way was no different, although I think it was The Orphans and the Church Restoration Fund that he ripped off.

Now compare that to another group in the same locale who got landed with a whole ruck of refugees from all over the "Arab" world. Different approach here completely. Instead of putting them all in Camps they integrated them, allowed them to put down roots, welcomed them in. Biggest difference was CarolC that this crowd were prepared to work, same as they had always been right the way back to the days of the Ottoman Empire in 1878.

Since the birth of Israel in 1948, brought about in no small way by Palestinian Arab intransigence, you have one set of refugees who literally had absolutely nowhere else to go, who have discovered the benefits of co-operation and hard work, and another set who have been shoddily treated by both fellow Palestinians and so-called Arab allies, and who have known nothing but graft, corruption and hand outs for sixty years. And guess what CarolC? Their present crop of "leaders" are not offering them anything different - As I said slow learning curve, but possibly one day the message will sink in.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 06:58 PM

Bullshit, Teribus. The vast majority of the money that was given to the Palestinians in aid was used to build schools, hospitals, universities, and other badly needed infrastructure, and most of that was bombed to smithereens by the IDF and the government of Israel (killing hundreds of Palestinians in the process.

The state that the Palestinians want to establish in the West Bank and Gaza could be viable. But the government of Israel is doing everything in its power to prevent that from happening. So, yes, if the government if Israel gets its way, a Palestinian state will be unviable.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:24 AM

On the contrary CarolC

The vast majority of money donated to help the Palestinian people went to what Arafat called his security apparatus. No information relating to the dispersement of those funds exists because it was all in Arafats hands and no records were kept.

For the "Palestinian" people the steps are quite simple:

1. Acknowledge and affirm the right of existence to the recognised sovereign State of Israel.

2. Acknowledge and affirm the right of the population of the State of Israel to be allowed to live their lives in peace without threat or fear of attack.

3. Make international agreements to live in peace with all neighbours in the region and for once actually abide by the terms and conditions of those agreements.

4. Concentrate their energies and efforts in creating their own state.

Do that and I think that the "Palestinians" would be amazed at how many friends they have in the world.

One thing is for sure, the prats yammering on about the destruction of Israel and promising the "Palestinian" people all the bounties that will come their way after the Jews have been driven into the sea, are dreaming. That will never happen, wake up and face the realities of the situation, the gun, the bomb and the rocket are getting these people nowhere - high time they realise that truth and concentrate on what can be done to improve their lot, forget pipe dreams about the unobtainable. Tell the likes of Syria and Iran that if they want to fight the Israelis, that they should have a go at doing it themselves. The Syrian and the Iranian Regimes will back down from that prospect as they basically do not have the stomach for it.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 08:28 PM

More lies, Teribus. During the time that this money was being given in aid to the Palestinians, hospitals, schools, roads, universities, and other important and badly needed civil infrastructure was built. Some of it went toward the security apparatus, but that was required of the PA by the agreements that the Palestinians made to police their own people on behalf of Israel. This civil infrastructure is mostly non-existent today, but that is because it was destroyed by the government of Israel.

Israel has not ever honored its agreements with the Palestinians, nor does it have any intention of ever doing so, no matter what the Palestinians do or don't do. During the period when Israel was obligated to stop building new settlements, it not only continued to build them (and expand existing ones), it even increased the rate at which it built them and expanded them. This is because it has never been Israel's intention to allow ANY Palestinians to remain on the land from which they originate. Israel's intention is, and has always been, to finish the job of ethnic cleansing (genocide) of the indigenous non-Jewish population that was begun prior to and during the 1948/49 war.

There is nothing the Palestinians can to do prevent this. The only way to prevent this from happening is for enough people to apply pressure to the governments of the US and Israel that it becomes impossible to continue with this agenda. So far there haven't been enough people applying pressure to make the needed changes, but the number of people who are doing this is growing steadily, and it will reach critical mass eventually. The only question is whether or not there will be any Palestinians left in Palestine when this finally happens. Either way, though, the world will eventually come to look with great shame upon what was allowed to be done to the indigenous people of Palestine (some of whom include the descendants of the original Christians), just as it has with slavery, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, segregation in the US south, South African apartheid, and the Holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:30 AM

Carol, do you not see that you're debating with one who has been in favor of backing oppression no matter where it's found. The more you lay it out for him the more his logic twists & turns. I believe he subscribes to the "Might is right" anti-life movement, winner take all & no quater given theorists.

Though I do enjoy your tearing apart of his each & every escape route. You're not leaving him much wiggle room, not that he deserves any.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM

Ah, welcome back Barry, still not up to answering any questions put your way I see. So a lie is a lie just because CarolC say so - what an absolutely wonderful land the pair of must live in.

I am still waiting for either of you to deny that conflict in the area known as Palestine was initiated by unprovoked Arab attacks on Jews. CarolC has decried such stories as lies but has completely failed to come up with any proof that the reports were lies. You on the other-hand just blatantly spout complete and utter crap and expect it to be swallowed as gospel truth hook-line-and-sinker. Some bloody corner either myself or beardedbruce are being backed into.

But here's another question for you not to answer Barry:

"Give one example of any agreement made by the Palestinians that they have actually honoured and kept"

Oh by the bye Baz, nothing to do with supporting "Might-is-right" it has however one hell of a lot to do with recognising and backing 100% Israel's right to defend itself and its people.

Now how many rockets was it that you would allow to be fired into your neighbourhood before you would be prepared to any action to stop it? You never did get round to answering that one did you Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 11:02 AM

One thing I forgot to ask both CarolC and Barry:

What is the definition of a "Palestinian"?

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 12:55 PM

T, I don't bother discussing these matters with you anymore because of how you twist things.
I was speaking with Carol & will continue to do so, but I will not be speaking with you. Good-bye


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:55 PM

To paraphrase Barry,

"I know what I believe: Don't bother me with the Truth."

It seems that anyone who is not willing to listen to the points presented by the other side ( in ANY arguement) is admitting that they fear that they have no support for their own opinions. This does NOT mean a blind acceptance of another's statements ( as CarolC seems to think is required), but looking into what the point is, and what evidence is provided.

It is always possible to disagree as to the meaning of facts, but it ( should be) possible to agree as to the facts of what has happened.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:25 PM

A Palestinian is someone who originates, or whose predecessors originated from the area that is now the West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem. I also use the term in reference to Arabs who originated in what is now Israel and who were expelled from there or who fled from there during the Nakba.

I am still waiting for either of you to deny that conflict in the area known as Palestine was initiated by unprovoked Arab attacks on Jews.

I do deny it. The conflict began in a similar fashion to the conflicts between indigenous Americans and the Europeans who were taking over their land. The Palestinians being in the same position as the indigenous Americans, and the European Jews being in the same position as the Europeans who invaded the Americas. No one had a right to come to either place with the intent of taking it over, and that was the original act of aggression.


Thanks Barry. Check out this video. It's very good...

http://fora.tv/2006/08/01/Ambassador_Afif_Safieh


This does NOT mean a blind acceptance of another's statements ( as CarolC seems to think is required), but looking into what the point is, and what evidence is provided.

I've provided plenty of evidence. If you choose to not look at it, that's not something I have any control over. I've provided literally hundreds, possibly thousands of links to supporting documentation over the last few years. I've also provided some right here in this thread. You prefer to ignore what I provide and pretend that I have not provided anything.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:42 PM

Not quite. I have looked at your posted evidence, and tried to determine if it is true, or if it presents a one-sided view. Even then, I factor it in- But I do not accept it as true just because you say it is.

Nor do I accept that you are capable of making valid statements about what Israel intends: is "This is because it has never been Israel's intention to allow ANY Palestinians to remain on the land from which they originate. Israel's intention is, and has always been, to finish the job of ethnic cleansing (genocide) of the indigenous non-Jewish population that was begun prior to and during the 1948/49 war."

I can make equally valid comments about what the Palestinians ( per your definition) and Arabs intend to do- yet you would call them lies since you would not agree.

How about stating what each side has done, and is doing instead of trying to pretend that you have some Godlike insight as to what they are thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 11:13 PM

All you have to do is look at the behavior of the Israeli government with regard to the location and continual expansion of the settlements, the path of the apartheid wall in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the blockade of Gaza beardebruce. They don't allow for the Palestinians to remain in any of those places. They make it difficult and sometimes impossible for non-Jews to remain living there. If the government of Israel didn't intend for them to leave, they wouldn't be making it impossible for them to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:29 AM

It's easy enough to judge by actions. The new wall is only one of these actions in a long list of actions that explain what Israel is all about.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: TIA
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:49 AM

Some believe that the last person standing (or speaking) is correct.
Not so.
People who are confident that their views are the truth often give up fighting with the delusional -- who will say, do, misconstrue, spin, twist, and slither, in the overwhelming quest to win an argument.
Oddly, the ones who shut up and bow out first are often the most likely to be correct.
Trust me, I am not patting my own sorry ass.
Instead, I am supporting those who have been watching this crap for weeks, and do not have the time or energy to waste boxing with sheer curtains, but are instead out in the world doing what is right.
Hats off, and thanks, to CarolC.
You have done a spectacular job of addressing, repeatedly, but to no avail, relentless slipperiness.
But the game is rigged.
How can one do good in the world if one commits to responding to repetitive, disdainful demands for detailed, sourced, responses to questions and allegations that have long ago been discredited?
The rules seem to be "if you cannot provide detailed answers, to misleading questions, with multiple sources that are pre-approved by the questioner, at least three or four times per questions, then *I* win."
Bullshit rules.
Bullshit games.
Last person standing or posting may not hold a monopoly on truth.
Let them think they win, and go out and DO something.
(No offense CarolC, you have been DOING something... repeatedly, and expertly...but the target moves, and is covered in oil.)

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:27 AM

"A Palestinian is someone who originates, or whose predecessors originated from the area that is now the West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem. I also use the term in reference to Arabs who originated in what is now Israel and who were expelled from there or who fled from there during the Nakba." - CarolC's definition of a "Palestinian" - as usual it is not correct.

On the question of refugee's with a "right of return". What a Palestinian was was defined by the UN. And guess what CarolC they did not have to have originated from, or ever to have had predecessors who had originated from the area.

"The conflict began in a similar fashion to the conflicts between indigenous Americans and the Europeans who were taking over their land. The Palestinians being in the same position as the indigenous Americans, and the European Jews being in the same position as the Europeans who invaded the Americas. No one had a right to come to either place with the intent of taking it over, and that was the original act of aggression."

If that is what you sincerely believe CarolC what are you doing about returning the US to the idigenous Americans? What are you doing about granting their right of return to their lands? Little, or nothing, I would suspect.

Your premise above of course, historically, is seriously flawed as it depends on start dates. How far back in the history of the geographical area known as Palestine do you want to go CarolC? I suspect for yourself and the likes of Guest TIA and Barry Finn the start date is around the time of the start of the Civil War which started on 30th November 1947, or 15th May 1948 when Israel declared independence. All previous history to you and your fellow travellers is conveniently considered irrelevant. You, by your own admission, deny the Mandate Period and the unprovoked attacks and attrocities that were committed against the Jews by Arabs during those years. You might deny them, as some equally selective people chose to deny the "Holocaust" of the Nazi era in German history, but that doesn't alter the fact that it did happen, it does not alter the fact that it had a relevant "knock-on" effect.

Of course if you look back through the recorded history of ancient times the indigenous people were the Jews, "the children of Israel". They were driven off their land by Arabs, who, as we advance through the centuries, were conquered by the Ottoman Turks about 500 years ago when they took Palestine. So CarolC whose land did the European Jews take over CarolC and when? It could be argued that the European Jews were undoubtedly descendents of the original inhabitants driven out by the Arabs, so what of their "right of return"? While on the subject of people moving into the area known as Palestine, I notice CarolC that you are remarkably reticent about the extent Arab migration into Palestine and what it was that drew them in.

On arrival CarolC you can no doubt tell us of the first instance of this conflict between the "not-so-indigenous-as-one-might-think" Palestinians and "the European Jews" where "the European Jews" were "taking over" the land.

If you cannot CarolC, I can, I already have on this thread - 1st March 1920 at Tel Hai where the Arabs attacked Jewish villages that had been established on land legally bought and paid for and farmed for about 30 years.

Here is another of those "lies" you are so keen to deny, despite the fact that the events associated with them most definitely did occur. Now what was your contention again CarolC:

"The conflict began in a similar fashion to the conflicts between indigenous Americans and the Europeans who were taking over their land. The Palestinians being in the same position as the indigenous Americans, and the European Jews being in the same position as the Europeans who invaded the Americas."

Tell us about the Massacre at Hebron in 1929 CarolC. The Jewish population of Hebron in 1929 had lived there for a recorded and documented period of at least 800 years CarolC, so chances are that they had lived there for long before that. Now CarolC tell everybody who it was that killed all those "not-so-European-Jewish-settlers" of Hebron in 1929? Who was it that drove the remainder from their homes in terror and caused them to flee? Who was it that took over their property? Have they, or their descendents any right of return? Not according to you, Guest TIA, Barry Finn, or any of your Arab Palestinian friends.

For those interested in the pretext for the Arab attack on that long established, ancient, indigenous Jewish population of Hebron. It was falsely reported and completely unfounded rumours of attacks on Arabs in Jerusalem by Jews - Now to anybody who has actually studied the history of Palestine that should have an extremely familiar ring to it - sound familiar to you at all CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:07 AM

"It's easy enough to judge by actions. The new wall is only one of these actions in a long list of actions that explain what Israel is all about." - Barry Finn

Quite right Barry - The prime responsibility of the freely elected Government of the sovereign State of Israel is the security of its citizens - So please let's do judge them by their actions - the new wall - terrorist attacks resulting in the deaths of Israeli citizens has declined 96% over the last seven years since its construction - Effective or what Baz?? I'd say that they're doing a damn fine job.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:21 PM

You keep on believing that T


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:29 PM

So CarolC the aid given to the Palestinians was put to good use building, hospitals, schools, roads, universities, and other important and badly needed civil infrastructure?

Now that's extremely odd because there appears to be scant record of any of that. Just as there is no record of Israelis arbitrarily destroying any hospitals, schools and universities? Can you come up with any explanation for that? Or are those statements of yours just plain lies, inventions or propaganda.

The bulk of aid given to the Palestinians has been spent on Yasser Arafat's "security apparatus" (Al-Fatah; Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, ect), arms, funding for various other terrorist groups and for food. By the way I did like your – "Some of it went toward the security apparatus, but that was required of the PA by the agreements that the Palestinians made to police their own people on behalf of Israel" – When, if ever, have the Palestinians ever "policed" their own people? – The answer to that of course is Never - Absolute joke that one.

"Israel has not ever honored its agreements with the Palestinians" – Really CarolC?

That's strange because I seem to remember some agreement about withdrawing completely from Gaza and turning that lump of real estate over in its entirety to the Palestinian Authority.

I also seem to remember that that is exactly what the Israelis did. There was, however, some small matter about how if this was done then the Palestinian Authority had to stop the daily rocket attacks being launched indiscriminately against Israeli civilians from inside Gaza. Now correct me if I am wrong but did those attacks stop? Were the Palestinians capable of "policing" their own people to comply with their side of the bargain? Oh hell no! There were over 4000 rockets launched against Israeli civilians in 2007 from inside Gaza after Israel withdrew. An Israeli student was killed just yesterday by one of those rocket attacks CarolC. What was it? Some 20 or so rockets fired indiscriminately into Israel. Their firing points were filmed by the BBC from a distance. Take a look at them CarolC, they were right in the heart of a civilian built up area in Gaza, which sort of illustrates the complete and utter contempt that your so lauded Palestinian "freedom fighters" of Hamas actually have for the "people" they are supposed to be "leading". So come on Barry and CarolC tell me who isn't honouring their agreements.

"nor does it (Israel) have any intention of ever doing so (honouring commitments), no matter what the Palestinians do or don't do" – more baseless crap from CarolC.

Please CarolC provide me with one example of any commitment or agreement entered into by the Palestinians that they have kept or have ever even had the slightest intention of keeping with regard to Israel. Believe me CarolC I can provide you with very many examples of broken agreements and dishonoured and unfulfilled commitments on the part of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:35 PM

All you have to do is look at the behavior of the Palestinians with regard to Israel, CarolC. They don't allow for the Israelis to live peacefully in any place. They make it difficult and sometimes impossible for Jews to remain living.

When the Palestinians cease to commit acfts of war against Israel, they will have peace. Until then, they will receive, for their attacks on Israeli and Arab civilians, TARGETED attacks on those who are attacking Israel, and on those who are supporting them.

The Palestinans have stated their goal is the elimination of Israel aned the Jews. If Israel made an equivalent statement (WHICH THEY HAVE NOT: Nor have they acted in that manner- 16% of Israel is ARAB- What is the Jewish percentage of the Arab nations around it, or the proposed Palestinian state?) , YOU would be up in arms and demand that we all condemn it. So why do the Palestinians get a pass on THEIR stated genocide of the Israelis?