Origins: Two sons were brothers

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 02:57 PM

Unless it's on another thread none of this gets us anywhere near an original. 'Bohunkus' was in 'Heart Songs' from the early years of the 20th century. My guess, it's late 19th century American, either Vaudeville or a nonsense poem set to music.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 06:25 PM

There was that Mudcat had some sons
Some sister, and, yes, brothers
And some of them would sing their songs
But not so much the others…

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 29 Oct 23 - 03:24 AM

See my thread above about Donald Dallas. He was blopdy awful, but people thought him funny. He spoke and sang in a common Inverness accent. A PE teacher (he taught in various schools), a strongman, games announcer and am. dram. comedian. He made a series of 78's for Decca/Beltona in the 30's. His renderings are often adaptations of trad. songs with a broad Inverness dialect slant. He died in 1946, and his works can now can be classed as public domain, as his co-writers are also past the 70 years copyright reach.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,David Allison, Hobart, Tasmania
Date: 28 Oct 23 - 09:09 PM

The story I heard as a young boy was from my Grandfather Donald Munro the Publican of the Plough Inn, Inverness, Scotland. He knew the recorder of the song a Donald Dallas who was a teacher at the Inverness Academy. The song is a parody on the church 'Presenter' who job it was to sing the first line of the the 'Psalms' to the semi-literate congregation. The version I knew and used to sing as a party piece is:

There was a man who had the twa sons
And these twa sons were brothers
Josepheus was the name of the one
And Banquius the name of the other
Now Josepheus was a weekid man
We'll ner see hem no more
He stole his Faither's coffin lid
To mak a hen-house door
Now these twa brothers bought a coat
They bought it on the Monday
Josepheus wore it through the week
And Banquius on the Sunday
Now it happened in the course of tiam
That these twa brothers diyed
They burried Josepheus on his back
And Banquius on his siade

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 06:25 PM

There was that Mudcat had some sons
Some sister, and, yes, brothers
And some of them would sing their songs
But not so much the others…

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 02:57 PM

Unless it's on another thread none of this gets us anywhere near an original. 'Bohunkus' was in 'Heart Songs' from the early years of the 20th century. My guess, it's late 19th century American, either Vaudeville or a nonsense poem set to music.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 29 Oct 23 - 03:24 AM

See my thread above about Donald Dallas. He was blopdy awful, but people thought him funny. He spoke and sang in a common Inverness accent. A PE teacher (he taught in various schools), a strongman, games announcer and am. dram. comedian. He made a series of 78's for Decca/Beltona in the 30's. His renderings are often adaptations of trad. songs with a broad Inverness dialect slant. He died in 1946, and his works can now can be classed as public domain, as his co-writers are also past the 70 years copyright reach.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,David Allison, Hobart, Tasmania
Date: 28 Oct 23 - 09:09 PM

The story I heard as a young boy was from my Grandfather Donald Munro the Publican of the Plough Inn, Inverness, Scotland. He knew the recorder of the song a Donald Dallas who was a teacher at the Inverness Academy. The song is a parody on the church 'Presenter' who job it was to sing the first line of the the 'Psalms' to the semi-literate congregation. The version I knew and used to sing as a party piece is:

There was a man who had the twa sons
And these twa sons were brothers
Josepheus was the name of the one
And Banquius the name of the other
Now Josepheus was a weekid man
We'll ner see hem no more
He stole his Faither's coffin lid
To mak a hen-house door
Now these twa brothers bought a coat
They bought it on the Monday
Josepheus wore it through the week
And Banquius on the Sunday
Now it happened in the course of tiam
That these twa brothers diyed
They burried Josepheus on his back
And Banquius on his siade

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 11:39 AM

Now, these two boys had suits of cloths, and they
were made for Sunday.
Bohunkus wore his every day and Josfuncus
wore his on Monday.

Thanks

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Alan Ross
Date: 13 Mar 21 - 09:48 AM

Here is a link to Donald Dallas's 'rendering'.   I had all of his recordings sent to me, but they are all equally dire and unfunny. There is one however, I might put on video called 'The Elusive Loch Ness Monster', which Britpop rocker Jarvis Cocker once played on BBC Radio 6 and is slightly above the rest.   Donald Dallas died in 1946 and all his works and recordings can be classed as public domain.   He was a strongman, Athlete, PE teacher and MC at Highland Games he was also an amateur stage entertainer. His works are recorded in the strongest Inverness accent possible, and often refer to a fondness for the whisky. Someone found him funny, and numerous recordings were made for the BELTONA record label in the early 1930's.   He often wrote bizarre monologues, punctuated with re-written trad. melodies. I am Invernessian, and still struggle with his accent and speech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jyZcbZA6qE

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 06:09 AM

allowing verses to flow back and forth between all verses:
That last word should have been 'versions'. My error, I can't even blame spell-check.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 06:04 AM

Of course, this also scans to "Mary had a little lamb", allowing verses to flow back and forth between all verses:

Mary had a little lamb,
It's fleece was white as snow
And everywhere that Mary went
The lamb was sure to go.

Mary had a little lamb.
She also had a bear.
I've often seen her little lamb,
But I've never seen her bear.

Mary had a little bear,
She treated it so kind.
And everywhere that Mary went
You'd see her bear behind.

Mary had a little dress,
The skirt was split in half.
And every step that Mary took,
The boys would see her calf.

Mary had another dress,
Split right up the front.
But she didn't wear that one.

Mary had a little pig.
She couldn't stop it gruntin'
She took it down a little path
And kicked its little head in

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 04:50 AM

Doug Stuart from the Black Isle does a wonderful version of this, and it's done in the Gaelic, call and response, hymn singing style.
The story I heard was that they weren't allowed to sing sacred songs outside of the church, so in order to learn the tunes, they put nonsense words to them.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Liz
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 07:18 PM

I remember my Scottish grandparents singing Andrew John/ John Andrew in the 60s and 70s. Their verses included "bought a shirt, they bought it on a Monday, John Andrew wore it all the week and Andrew John on Sunday."
"bought a horse and it was very thin; They had to plaster up its sides to keep its breakfast in"

And one not mentioned so far
"Now these two brothers went to war, They went to see how things is; John Andrew joined the 10th Hussars, and Andrew John the Kings's."

After that they died of eating fish and jelly, and now they are gone, I'm sure you wish them well. John Andrew he has gone to heaven, and Andrew John (long pause) as well.

It always had to be sung very seriously, rather lugubriously, which made it all the funnier.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 08:59 AM

Just remembered another verse:

These two sons they bought a cow, they bought it for a tanner, every night and every morn they milked it with a spanner.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Helen
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 10:41 AM

My Welsh father sang:
There was a man who had two sons,these two sons were brothers, John Andrew was the name of one and Andrew John the other.

These two sons they bought a suit, they bought it on a Monday, John Andrew wore it all the week and and Andrew John on Sunday.

These two sons they bought some bricks to build the chimney higher,to stop the cats from peeing down and putting out the fire.

Now these two sons are dead and gone, they died from eating jelly, John Andrew died upon his back and Andrew John his belly.

60 years on it still makes me laugh 😃.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Dave Hunt - aka Dr Sunshine
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 05:29 AM

My parents were in a concert party and one of the sketches was - Two of the men came on dressed as Methodist Ministers.."Good evening Brother'..."Good evening Brother' 'What are we singing this evening?'' " I have a new song....here's the music" So they look at the sheet music "What's it called?"   "Drink to me Only" ...."Tut Tut! Can't sing about drink"   ....so they tear the top bit of the sheet music off....and so it goes on..." I'll sing tenor you have to sing Bass (pronounced as in Bass beer) " Tut Tut...that's a beer!" tear off next bit of music "Well here we go...moving from bar to bar" "Tut tut,etc.". tear off more music ....then same thing using "written in 1849....sorry I can only do 4-4,... Pizzicato,... Pause sign...looks like a Dogs Eye..."Sounds like a cocktail"..... Who wrote it? ...Paganini...That's page nine...finally get to bottom " Pub. Boosey and Hawkes" "PUB? BOOSEY!" Screw up last bit and discard "Well Brother we'll just have to sing our old one" (Here's where this tale is leading!!)

There was a man who had two sons
And these two sons were brothers
Adolphus John the name of one
John Adolphus was the other

Now these two men they died they did
From eating cake and jelly
Adolphus John died on his back
John Adolphus on his…..birthday

Now these two men are dead and gone
We know you wish them well
Adolphus John went up to heaven
John Adolphus went…..as well

The late lamented Prof Wingnut (Vic Baker) and I revived it a few times for Music Hall shows, Nothing to remember as each cue written on the music sheet in black felt tip!

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:19 AM

The chimney/cats piddling is a commonplace of the 2 songs once again.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Andrew John
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 05:45 PM

My welsh grandfather used to sing:

There was a farmer, he had two sons. Now these two sons were brothers.
John Andrew was the name of one and Andrew John the t'other.
Now these two sons, they built the chimney, stack up higher and higher.
To stop the dirty, stinking cats from piddlin' in the fire.

I don't know if there was any more, my nanna always stopped him from singing at that point ;)

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Gutcher
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 04:25 PM

hello John T. ---cannot get any results from two links given

the you-tube record of Dan and Lee mentioned by me above seems to have been removed.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,John Tuach
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 03:13 PM

Better audio file plus newspaper article at

http://points-north.net/donal/

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 10:45 AM

My father's version had the brothers named John Andrew and Andrew John.
Regarding the above Josephus verse said to be recorded by Lonnie Donegan. In about 1956 he was at a ceilidh in Morris Blythman's house in Glasgow. A singer I do not know sang and led the whole company in an uproarious parody of church hymn singing, 'lining out' each line in the style of the Highland Wee Free Church of Scotland as follows.
Joe Weavis was a weekit (Scots for wicked) man
We'll see his likes no more
He stole his father's coffin lid
To make a henhouse door.
Dongean sang next - Grand Coolie Dam. I was not there but Morris played me [and many others] the tape.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,John Tuach
Date: 01 Jan 16 - 05:02 PM

This is the Donal Dallas 1920's version..

http://points-north.net/donal.aac

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Dec 15 - 03:56 AM

Among the commonplaces are the verses/motifs

double-jointed pig
riverside-gently pushed her in......'Lily-white Hand/Distressed Maid'
Cow milked with a spanner.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Dec 15 - 03:48 AM

It would appear that a wide range of tunes is used. It might be worth pointing out that old Grimes/Abram Brown etc is definitely a separate song to Josephus and Bohunkus allowing for a little bit of crossover. Both songs have been subject to the addition of commonplaces over time. Both are very widespread. In my native Yorkshire the 'Old Grimes' song has long been traditional in several quite different forms. 'Old Grimey/Old Johnny Walker' etc...

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,M.E. Lawrence
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 11:39 PM

So happy to have found this thread! (I tried Googling these lyrics about 10 years ago, but no joy.)

My late papa used to sing me a song enjoyed by his father, a Swede who emigrated to Utah in 1884 and became a union activist in the coal mines:

[Memory fails me], he had two sons,
And both those boys were brothers.
Josephus was the name of one,
Josephus was the name of one.
Bohunkus was the other,
Bohunkus was the other.
Bo-hun-kus wa-a-a-s the other name.

This was sung, with great vigor and emphasis, to the tune of "Joy to the World." Further verses, which I've forgotten, continue with tall-taleish descriptions of the two brothers' qualities and exploits.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,AIH
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 06:06 PM

My father used to sing this song to amuse his three daughters. His version was;
There was a man who had two sons and these two sons were brothers.
Josephus was the name of one Bohankus was the other.
Now these two sons had suits of clothes and they did wear them well.
Josephus he to Elwood went, Bohankus went to...Eustis.

Elwood and Eustis were two small town in central Nebraska close to where we lived.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 02:53 PM

I missed this way back then...

somewhere I learned:

There was a farmer he had two sons and these two sons were brothers
Josephus was the name of one and Bohunkus was the others

Now these two sons are dead & gone, and they have gone to rest.
Josephus of the cholera died, Bohunkus by request.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Gutcher
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 10:46 AM

The Inverness connection mentioned above would be from recollection of
this song recorded on a 78rpm record by two natives of that area------ Dan Dallas and Lee Fraser--the length of the song being restricted by the then technology.
This recording can be found on you-tube.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 11:31 PM

My mom sang the first verse about the two sons. She sang Bohunkus. A Bohunk is someone from the Czech Republic. In Western Pennsylvania, a hunky is someone of Eastern European ancestry, Czech, Slovak, Serb, Croat, Russian, Ukrainian etc. are all hunkies. It's considered a perjorative, but I know people, among them my next door neighbor, who proudly call themselves Hunkies. He's got Hunky4 for his license plate.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 07:50 AM

My recollection of this is slightly different, being as follows:-
There was a man who had two sons
And these two sons were brothers
Adolphus John was the name of one
And John Adolphus the other

Now these two men they bought a suit
They bought it on a Monday
Adolphus John wore it all the week
And John Adolphus on Sunday

Now these two men they had a horse
Oh dear it was so thin
They took it to the river side
And pushed the poor thing in

Now these two men they died they did
From eating fish and jelly
Adolphus John died on his back
And John Adolphus on his…..birthday

Now these two men are dead and gone
I'm sure you wish them well
Adolphus John went to heaven above
And John Adolphus…..as well

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 03:38 PM

Mike Waterson had a version in which the brothers' names were Adolphus John and John Adolphus. Besides the introductory verse I think it had only two others: the one about the thin horse (which they took to the River Went) and the one about their dying.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Charlie
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 02:00 PM

I've also heard this song at Inverness Folk club in the 1980's. The guy who sang it said he came across it on an old '78 belonging to his Grannie, and it was recorded by Lonnie Donegan.

I remember a verse:

Josepheus was a wicked man,
..............(can't remember),
He stole his Father's coffin lid,
To make a henhouse door.

Subject: Lyr Add: On Mules
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:50 AM

Following on, an old Scout campfire song:
Mules, A Cation
(ttto Auld Lang Syne)

On mules we find,
Two legs behind.
And two we find before.
We stand behind
Before we find
What the two behind be for!

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Joy A
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 12:52 PM

My Grandfather (b. 1900) from Georgia sang:

There was a farmer he had two sons and these two sons were brothers
Josephus was the name of one and Bohunkus was the other

These two boys they had a mule and this here mule was blind
Josephus walked in front of the mule, Bohunkus walked behind

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 06:14 AM

Posted elsewhere in 2002.
This is clearly related. Possibly comments above about the 'welsh' pronunciation of 'll' in 'belly' feed back to this version:

JOHN/HENRY
Tune: Bugeilio'r gwenith gwyn. Lyrics Unknown

There was a man, he had two sons,
And these two sons were brothers.
John Henry was the name of one,
And Henry John, the other.

Now these two sons, the found a bike.
The found it in a hollow.
And whereso'er the front wheel went,
The back would surely follow,

Now these two sons, they bought a cow.
They milked it with a spanner.
The milk came out in shilling tins,
The smaller ones; a tanner.

Now these two sons took ill and died.
They died of eating jelly.
John Henry died upon his back,
And Henry John his belly.

Notes: 'shilling' 12 old pence, one 20th of a pound sterling.
'Tanner' six old pence. One fortieth of a pound.
Jelly: gelatinised fruit cup.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 11:56 AM

The fragment I remember myu mother singing was:
There was a framer had two sons
And these two sons were brothers.
Josephus was the name of one, Bohunkus was the others.

Now these two sons are dead and gone,
Long may their ashes rest.
Josephus of the cannibals died
Bohunkus by inquest.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 09:26 PM

From my memory of Bangor sessions.

Now it came to pass in the fullness of time
That these two brothers di-ed.
They buried Josephius upside down.
And Banqueius on his si-ed

I think there was also a verse about stealing the fathers coffin lid to make a sh....en house door.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 08:07 PM

My mother sang

There was a farmer had two sons,
And these two sons were brothers.
Josephus was the name of one,
Bohuncus was the other.

Now these two sons to the theater went
Whenever they saw fit.
Bohuncus in the gall'ry say,
Josephus, in the pit.

Now these two sons are dead and gone.
We may their story tell:
Josephus, he to heaven went;
Bohuncus, he to --

Mick Pearce's "Old Grimes" shares a motif with

There was a Presbyterian cat
Went hunting for her prey.
She caught a moose within the hoose
Upon the Sawbath day.

The people they were horrifiet,
And they were grieved sair,
And so they brocht that wicked cat
Before the ministair.

The ministair was horrifiet,
And loodly he did say,
"O wicked cat, to catch a moose
Upon the Sawbath day.

The Sawbath's been, frae days of yore,
An institution,"
And so they led that wicked cat
To execution.

MORAL:
The higher up the plum tree graws,
The sweeter graw the plums.
The mair the cobbler plies his trade,
The braider graw his thumbs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: BB
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:24 AM

More and more interesting! The root of the John Wesley song is obviously the same.

"John Wesley had three daughters fair, and they was tall and thin,
He took them to the river bank and threw the buggers in.

There came along three farmer's sons, and they was tall and stout;
They saw them struggling in the stream and pulled the buggers out."

"John Wesley had an old straw hat without no crown nor brim,
'Twouldn't 'a' bin much use to thee, and 'twadn't no use to him."

We tend not to sing this in 'polite' circles!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:30 PM

The poem Old Grimes was published by Albert Greene in 1822 and is available in several places on the net. Here's a copy from Old Grimes - wikisource:

Old Grimes is dead; that good old man,
      We ne'er shall see him more;
    He used to wear a long, black coat,
      All buttoned down before.

    His heart was open as the day,
      His feelings all were true;
    His hair was some inclined to gray,
      He wore it in a queue.

    He lived at peace with all mankind,
      In friendship he was true;
    His coat had pocket-holes behind,
      His pantaloons were blue.

    He modest merit sought to find,
      And pay it its desert;
    He had no malice in his mind,
      No ruffles on his shirt.

    His neighbours he did not abuse,
      Was sociable and gay;
    He wore large buckles on his shoes,
      And changed them every day.

    His knowledge, hid from public gaze,
      He did not bring to view,
    Nor make a noise town-meeting days,
      As many people do.

    His worldly goods he never threw
      In trust to fortune's chances,
    But lived (as all his brothers do)
      In easy circumstances.

    Thus undisturbed by anxious cares
      His peaceful moments ran;
    And everybody said he was
      A fine old gentleman.



The poem seems to have been published a lot thereafter. Walt Whitman did an imitative version in 1840 - Young Grimes

When old Grimes died, he left a son--
The graft of worthy stock;
In deed and word he shows himself
A chip of the old block.

In youth, 'tis said, he liked not school--
Of tasks he was no lover;
He wrote sums in a ciphering book,
Which had a pasteboard cover.

Young Grimes ne'er went to see the girls
Before he was fourteen;
Nor smoked, nor swore, for that he knew
Gave Mrs. Grimes much pain.

He never was extravagant
In pleasure, dress, or board;
His Sunday suit was of blue cloth,
At six and eight a yard.

But still there is, to tell the truth,
No stinginess in him;
And in July he wears an old
Straw hat with a broad brim.


Whether the song versions were based on the poems or whether Greene was inspired by the song would be an interesting question to answer.

Bartlett's Quotations 1919 offers these two in notes to the 1st verse of Old Grimes:

John Lee is dead, that good old man,—
We ne'er shall see him more;
He used to wear an old drab coat
All buttoned down before.

To the memory of John Lee, who died May 21, 1823.
An Inscription in Matherne Churchyard.

Old Abram Brown is dead and gone,—
    You'll never see him more;
He used to wear a long brown coat
    That buttoned down before.

Halliwell: Nursery Rhymes of England, p. 60.


The first quote from 1823 would suggest either that someone was quick at appropriating Greene's verse or (perhaps more likely?) that the verse was already in circulation.


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: BB
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:01 PM

There a verse above that's interesting. There's a rather irreverent song from Exmoor about John Wesley - tune 'The Seven Joys of Mary' or 'The Old Grey Duck', which includes the following verses:

John Wesley was a minister who lived in days of yore,
He often wore an old brown coat that buttoned up before.

John Wesley had another coat of quite a different kind;
Instead of buttoning up before, it buttoned up behind.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 05:56 PM

Here's the North Carolina tune I mentioned above. The notes include the information For different textual versions cf BSM 259, JAFS xxvi 125-6 and Texas FS 224-5

Mick

---

X:1
T:Old Grimes Is Dead
S:Miss Zilpah Frisbie of McDowell county; recorded Durham, July 24, 1923
B:The Frank C Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore
L:1/8
M:6/8
K:F
C|F2 D C2 F|A2 G F2
w:Old Grimes is dead, that good old man;
C|D2 F FFD|(D C2-) C2
w:We ne'er shall see him no more.__
C|F2 F G2 G|A2 B c2
w:He used to wear a long-tailed coat
(A/G/)|F2 F A2 G|(G F2-) F2|]
w:All_ but-toned down be-fore.__

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 06:24 AM

That looks a bit like the tune I remember. I'm wondering if I heard it from my father who knew songs from a Boys Brigade book. Penny

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:19 PM

I thought I had a version somewhere: This is from Cox Folk-Songs of the South:

OLD GRIMES

Old Grimes is dead, that good old man,
We ne'er shall see him more;
He used to wear an old gray coat,
All buttoned up before, my boys,
All buttoned up before.

I wish I had a load of wood,
To fence my garden round;
For the neighbours' pigs they do get in
And root up all my ground, my boys,
And root up all my ground.

Our old cat has got so far
She'll neither sing nor pray;
She chased a mouse all round the house
And broke the Sabbath day, my boys,
And broke the Sabbath day.

Somebody stole my banty hen,
I with they'd let her be;
For Saturday she laid two eggs,
And Sunday she laid three, my boys,
And Sunday she laid three.


Cox's notes say: The first stanza will be recognised as belonging to the well-known poem by Albert Gordon Green. The rest is a comic perversion after the fashion of a nursery rhyme.

Communicated by Miss Lily Hagans, Morgantown, Monongalia County, January 2, 1916; obtained from an old lady, Mrs Boyd.


There are plenty of references to the song on the net. It seems to have been recorded by several quartets in the 20s and appeared in several university song books. The Ballad Index Supplement quotes several texts.

I also have a version (1v plus tune) from the Frank C Brown collection of NC songs, and I'll try and post that tomorrow.

I can't find any likely-looking early source, though one Ohio univerity site said it wasn't know there before the 1890s, but that's not really much help.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

The Old Grimes verse is a bit like something we sang in the school Senior Choir
"Old Abr'am Brown is dead and gone you'll never see him more
He used to wear a long brown coat that buttoned down before"

And then the same words with a lot of fancy counterpoint

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Newport Boy
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:48 PM

As promised above, my tune in (crude) ABC.

X: 1
T:Farmers Two Sons
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:1/8=90
K:G
D|DG B3A|GE D3D|DG B3G|AA3 c|
BA G3A|BG E3D|DG B3A|GG3|

Phil

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:27 PM

There are two versions in the Max Hunter collection: Josephus and Bohunkus from Reba Dearmore, Mountain Home, Arkansas, 1969 and Bohunkus and Josephus from Bill Ping, Santa Rosa, California, 1972 (an Old Grimes version). The text is there and sound too (Reba Dearmore's tune is essentially Auld Lang Syne).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Newport Boy
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 04:24 PM

This was discussed in an old thread here

I have a version of this, collected from my mother in about 1957. She'd sung it as a junior schoolgirl in South Wales before 1920. I think she'd learned it from my Great Aunt Gert, born 1883. My mother's cousin confirms that she learned it from Gert.

I noted the following words in 1957.

FARMERS TWO SONS

There was a farmer had two sons, and these two sons were brothers,
Josephus was the name of one, Piancus was the others.

Now these two brothers had a shirt, and it was washed on Mondays.
Josephus wore it all the week, Piancus wore it Sundays.

Now these two brothers had a horse, and it was very thin.
They took it to the riverside, and gently pushed it in.

Now these two brothers had a pig, and it was double jointed,
They took it to the blacksmith's shop, to have its tail repointed.

Now these two brothers both are dead, from eating apple jelly,
They laid Josephus on his back, Piancus on his belly.

Yes, these two brothers both are dead, I trust you wish them well
Josephus he went up to heaven; Piancus - who can tell?


My mother always sang the 'belly' as a Welsh word - I don't know the phonetics for the 'll'.

The tune she sang was very similar to Bugeilio'r Gwenith Gwyn. I have it fairly accurately notated, and will post an ABC tomorrow.

I'd always assumed this was a local children's song, but it seems that the basic idea is much earlier, and that it possibly had been learned from a music hall (vaudeville) act.

Phil

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:42 PM

(continues - accidental return there)

Sing Brethren Sing, Bohunker and Kychunker and Twin Lakes (3 Newfoundland entries). I'm sure I've got a version of this somewhere, but it's not in my obvious first choices of places to look!

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:35 PM

My copy of the Roud Index lists about a dozen entries for this (No.6360), all from the USA or Canada, with titles Josephus and Bohunkus, Bohunkus, Old Grimes is Dead, Sing

Subject: RE: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: BB
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 02:43 PM

Roy Harris recorded a version of this back in '99. He got it from Duncan MacClellan of the Inverness Folk Club 'ages ago'. Duncan's version came from a Scottish comedian called Donald Dallas. Frank Crumit sang a version he called 'Bohunkus'.

Barbara

Subject: Origins: Two sons were brothers
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:34 AM

I was watching a programme on accents recorded by German researchers from POWs in WW1, and one of the common pieces was the parable of the prodigal son, beginning, "There was a man who had two sons..." when out from my dim and distant memory swam a song. I do not know its origin or where I learned it(certainly not from a US university song book, which provides the nearest match).

Any ideas?

There was a farmer had two sons, and these two sons were brothers,
Josephus was the name of one, Biancus was the other.

Now these two brothers had a pig, and it was double jointed,
They took it to the blacksmith's shop, to get its trotters pointed.

Now these two (men) fell sick and died, from eating apple jelly,
Josephus died upon his back, Biancus on his birthday.

Line missing, ending with "ell"
Josephus he went up to heaven, Biancus went as well.

Penny