BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?

Subject: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 08:31 PM

Sorry if this is the type of esoteric and non-folk, fact-based discussion topic that gets about 5 responses, but a Sixty Minutes Story made me wonder about something, and I was wondering if others had a point of view.
In several impoverished and war-plagued parts of Africa, the remaining numbers of mountain gorillas are being decimated by those who kill them for their hands, objects that are purported to have medicinal properties. Dismissing for a moment the bizarre nature of the motive for killing the gorillas, the difficulty in protecting them is exacerbated by the relative low pay and motivation of their protectors, and the general weakness of the protecting governments in stopping this.
Why, I wondered, can't a significant number of the remaining 1200 gorillas be transplanted to a place where there are significant climate and food resource similarities to their natural environment, but in a country or region better able to protect their reamining numbers? Could Kenyan gorillas be transplanted to remote but secure areas of Brazil, or Argentina, or Costa Rica? Has such a thing been attempted?
I realize that such a notion wouldn't apply to all or even most threatened species. But would a sufficiently motivated government in concert with and with the support of other like-minded governments be willing to "adopt" a mountain gorilla colony?

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 08:41 PM

awww..If only it were that easy, EJ. Obviously, Gorillas ARE kept in places other than Africa...there are a few near you...but WILD areas are a pretty delicate balance, and it would not be easy to assure food supply they are familiar with or safety from various predators...including OTHER men.
   I'm sure those with more knowlege than either of us have thought of about every trick they can....but I'd bet the keepers right over at the St.Louis zoo could give you a good idea of the odds of such a scheme working.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:09 PM

It's the old story we know from science fiction-- because before too long, WE will be the species looking for a new home (free of Toxic Republicanians).

And yeah, I'd like to bring a gorilla home to keep it safe, too.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:11 PM

I was just gonna post something similar, Susan. In the book, "Time Enough for Love" by heinlein (or maybe it was "Cities in Flight" by James Blish, humankind was doing that--exporting itself so as not to keep 'all its eggs in one basket'. We went colonizing other planets. Sooner or later, I think we'll have to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:33 PM

The idea of 'new homes' for threatened species has been proposed before. Several zoological parks maintain small breeding colonies of a few threatened species. There are many problems, such as the necessity for genetic diversity in a colony for long term success. Every area has its own parasites, etc., which could attack the colonists.
Unfortunately, likely new habitats are also under threat, moreover imported species could threaten the native species.
There are no areas of Brasil, etc., which are outside of the reach of the logger, the miner and the farmer. Logging in Brasil has reached the point where the thin, tropical soil cover is threatened, and this could affect temperature and rainfall within 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:36 PM

"If only it were that easy" said Bill. Now, I wouldn't think it would be easy. I realize that species survival requires a specific set of parameters, including climate, food sources, predation. But neither is preserving an endangered species in its native habitat when that habitat has been altered by man any easier. Such environmental factors that allowed a species to thrive become almost secondary considerations when balanced with the political considerations that are needed to preserve a species in what has become an untenable situation in Africa.
Wizzy and Peace want to compare this with the possibility of man relocating from earth. The difference is that we have, as yet, no place to go which offers man the things that enable life on this planet, while species relocation has no such limitations that I can see. So what prevents it?

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 10:19 PM

Money?

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 10:22 PM

Scotland says they'll take a few as long as they are willing to adapt to local customs.

Seriously...and I agree it IS serious...it might be possible to create a 'few' areas in certain mountain habitats where breeding programs could be maintained, but for long-term programs with sufficient diversity and 'quality of gorilla life', I have my doubts.
Again...I'd ask those with experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 10:22 PM

What you propose has been done successfully with other species. The Laysan duck has been deliberately introduced to Midway Island for this purpose: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:JeerLGFfs7EJ:www.hawaiianatolls.org/research/NWHIRAMP2004/features/laysan-ducks.php+%22lays

Early in the last century, China's Pere David's deer survived ONLY on the estate of the Duke of Bedford: http://library.thinkquest.org/5053/Asia/peredavid'sdeer.html

The Franklinia, a beautiful plant from the U.S. state of Georgia, was nearly extinct at the time of its discovery by Western science in 1765. The wild population did become extinct, but today you can buy a franklinia from your local nursery because it survived in a Philadelphia garden: http://www.bartramsgarden.org/franklinia/

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 11:00 PM

Bill, that was a good'un!

Kent, yes! The story of the Laysan Duck is encouraging. Money and logistics would certainly be huge obstacles, but might not it be worth the investment to assure the gorilla's continued existence in the wild? I believe there are many who would give their dollars to such an effort, if feasible.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 11:52 PM

Tigers are heading for extinction in the wild for exactly the same reason, by exactly the same believers in folk medicine.

There's a red book, I'm told it is huge, specifying all the known species that are in danger.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 12:11 AM

Why gorillas are being driven to extinction in the wild.
CAUTION disturbing image.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 12:14 AM

Rabbits - Australia
Cane Toad - Queensland
Mink - East Anglia
Japanese Knotweed - England
Grey Squirrels - England
American Crayfish - River Test, England
Coypu - East Anglia
Leylandii - anywhere


Putting animals or plants into new environments can create a monster in a new place. Care is very important.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 12:20 AM

Agreed, Richard. But there's a difference between exporting animals for hunting, for atmosphere, or for pest control, and a controlled transplant of large mammals. I can't quite envision gorillas running amok through Manhattan because a refuge was created in New Jersey and they overbred.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Bee
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 08:28 AM

I imagine it would be very difficult, but possibly worth trying. Gorillas are pretty specific about only eating what they have learned is safe, and like chimps and other animals, they self-medicate with leaves and herbs they know will help with various ailments (like bellyache or worms). The young ones learn a lot from the adults, so just transplanting young ones wouldn't be likely to succeed. But that's about all I know - any Great Ape experts amongst the 'catters?

Then again, you could check out what the Canadian beaver has done to those Argentinian islands...

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 09:13 AM

Leej,

It isn't that I want to compare it to relocating humans, as much as that I think that the need for what you propose presages far worse impending realities than the animal situation you describe.

I just think you're looking at the tippytop of the iceberg.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:10 PM

I can't quite envision gorillas running amok through Manhattan because a refuge was created in New Jersey and they overbred. But it's a nice thought isn't it?

There was a documentary about some bloke who was trying to get some tigers to make a new life somewhere in Africa, where they might have a better chance than back in India.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 02:31 PM

All those stripes might confuse color-blind zebras....and even color-blind lions.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 03:10 PM

I'm in agreement with Bee. A baby gorilla learns from his mamma not to attempt to make a meal from a Green Mambo. She doesn't teach him not to try to eat rattlesnakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 04:45 PM

I have a feeling that a gorilla would be smarter in dealing with an unfamiliar creatures such as rattlesnakes than most human beings would be.

But the real danger for any wild animal just about anywhere is liable to be human beings. "Rattlesnake country" would tend to be infested by members of the National Rifle Association...

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM

Since divorce results in two resiences effectively doubling the carbon footprint of a couple I propose we encourge poligamy.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 06:42 PM

I don't quite see the relevance to the thread, Don....nor do I agree with the calculations. Care to enlighten us?

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:23 PM

off topic true enough.

Wait wait dont tell me, a show on NPR cited a study of habitation factors and carbon footprints. The study showed a steep rise in energy use for two seperate homes due to divorce.
The comedian then chimed in that polygamy should reduce the carbon footprint even further.

then a somewhat hilarious discussion of bigamy vs. poygamy ensued.

Subject: RE: BS: Prevent Species Extinction thru Export?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 06:46 PM

I assumed that was the basic logic...but divorce doesn't always MEAN 2 separate domiciles. Polygamy 'might' help...as might polyandry, though I doubt it is more than a cute topic for comedians. Contraceptives in the drinking water might help even more.