BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM

I also believe that people should put kindness first on their list of priorities. Doesn't mean I think they DO - but I believe we ought to.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:22 PM

The common sphere, Wes, was a phrase I used to indicate the region where viewpoints agree. For example, in human affairs, everyone agrees that gravity is, and that space is contiguous, extensible and so on. These are the fundamentals of agreed-yupon perception that make the physical universe a shared experience. I suppose, though, you can find a few renegade outliers on all those points, come to think of it, so maybe it is really a mere rumour!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:15 PM

A *smile* and Best wishes to you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:57 PM

Ok, Mike....but you have made it clear which 'truth' you espouse, and I have little doubt what you think & hope people will discover AS truth if they seek it openly and carefully for long enough. Not stating it explicitly in a particular post doesn't change the point I was making....that ANY search for absolutes requires that 'open mind' to close when picking one absolute out of a list.

I will drop the subject now..*smile*...and offer you the 'best wishes' you offer to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:55 PM

I believe in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:14 AM

Just remember, Georgiansilver, in spiritual matters, one person's truth is another's lies. Perhaps that's why, like Dr David Hope (good name that), the former Archbishop of York, I believe that it is better to travel hopefully than to arrive.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:00 AM

Who gets to define "Common Sphere"? How would you define it?

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:52 AM

OF course, when we start dancing with the spiritual side of existence, truth takes on a very shimmery, volatile sort of quality, I would offer. Not the sort of thing that passes for truth in the Common Sphere at all. A mish-mash of imaginary, asserted, revivified or just badly remembered entities and personae, speculations, hokums and pokums of every description, no?





A

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:43 AM

BillD..I don't believe I was making any kind of claim in my last posting...just suggesting that people should have open minds or they might miss the 'truth'...and I did not assert that my understanding of the truth was the correct one. I also suggest that I was not asking anyone to believe in order to believe, rather suggesting that people seek the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:40 AM

"Eupraxsophy (previously "eupraxophy" but updated) [1] is a nonreligious life stance or worldview emphasizing the importance of living an ethical and exuberant life, and relying on rational methods such as logic, observation and science (rather than faith, mysticism or revelation) toward that end. The word "eupraxsophy" was coined by Paul Kurtz, and comes from the Greek words for "good practice and wisdom." Eupraxsophies, like religions, are cosmic in their outlook, but eschew the supernatural component of religion, avoiding the "transcendental temptation," as Kurtz puts it."

A fine belief system, from the looks of it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:27 AM

I believe in eupraxsophy.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:19 AM

Mike....you simply don't see the implications buried in that sort of argument. The point you make: "Because you have not found it...doesn't mean it isn't there" also implies directly "it also means it might NOT be there."
You are essentially asking folks to "believe in order to believe".
Having an "open mind" in this context is just a euphemism for "not questioning". A **TRULY** open mind always considers all possibilities, and in doing so sees the weaknesses in assertions about metaphysical claims.
   Remember...*you* are making a claim....which requires you to defend it. It does NOT require others to prove it false.

If I were to make a claim that my house was built by spirits and has ghosts roaming its rooms, you'd see the point easily! You'd shrug and ask me to show you some evidence....and probably just say, "well, go on...believe as you please, but I've walked about your house, and I saw nothing." I doubt that my asking you to 'try harder' would impress you.

If I reply that these spirits have important & meaningful messages, you could rightfully reply, "yes, but I get MY messages from a different spiritual source".

well....you see how it goes. You had a strong experience at one time, and it helps you and supports you, and that's great. We're just not all 'wired' to see truth the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:55 AM

Because you have not found any 'truth' in Spiritual matters theleveller...does not mean there is no truth...and if you cannot accept that there might be some truth in it somewhere then you are unlikely to find it as you have already dismissed it. I believe everyone should be open minded or they might miss something.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:27 AM

I believe that's an error, Leveler. Or, do you think it is really true?

;>)



A

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:21 AM

In spiritual matters there is no truth, only belief. Isn't that what having faith means?

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:18 AM

Perhaps we all like to live by our own beliefs butI think it is good to hear what others beliefs are...who knows...perhaps one day we may all find out the 'Truth' whatever it is..but how will we find it unless someone tells us about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:03 AM

I believe in keeping my spiritual beliefs to myself as they are, and proably always will be, a work in progress. I believe it would be a better world if more people did the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:41 AM

I'm not that keen on dogs but I'm not going to deny they exist. I was once bitten by a chihuahua. Apart from that, I'm with you all the way, WYSIWYG.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:43 AM

On the other hand, I also believe that Tuesdays are illegal in Bolivia. So, what do I know?

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:39 AM

I believe in the power of color to imagine the world.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 11:06 PM

That's great biLL. I read a book by Gnome a while back

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 11:03 PM

I believe in empiricism.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:56 PM

I do believe this

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:46 PM

I believe in the power of imagination to color the world.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:35 PM

Once again I invite all non-believers to say, in positive terms, what they do value and believe in.

I'll even start:

I believe in folk music. I believe in community. I believe in the power of goodness to be much, much stronger than the power of evil that masquerades as powerful. I believe in the creativity of the human mind. I believe in learning as much as I can, and in doing that when I am curious and open and exploratory. I believe in children. I believe in relationships.

And I really believe in dogs.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 06:32 PM

I prefer to be un unreligious believer!

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 11:37 AM

another quote from Albert Einstein ...

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is somewhat a new kind of religion."

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:49 AM

I need a flow chart and an aspirin.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:47 AM

Wait a minute! I think I saw one crossing the street between 14th and Middletown Avenue.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:40 AM

Mysterious, sure. Supernatural? Nope!

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:07 AM

"The most beautiful thing we experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all sciences. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

                                  Albert Einstein, Ph.D

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:48 AM

Me too!

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 06:58 PM

I gotta get one of those!

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 03:32 PM

Bumpersticker received by a friend as a Chritmas gift:

HONK IF YOU DON'T EXIST.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 02:46 PM

The problem is, there seems to be a whole lot of folks who exist but never seem to think. And a lot of them vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 01:53 PM

Don't confuse A==>B with ~B==>~A. They aren't identical. No-one says you exist if and only if you think.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 01:47 PM

Thanks Amos,

"If you are aware of your own thought, you must Be"

...so if I do something without thinking......?!

Hmmmm...

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 01:26 PM

I AM drunk therefore I drink...or something....whatEVER....

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 01:18 PM

I drunk, therefore I was?

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 01:12 PM

I'll drink to that!

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 12:48 PM

I drink, therefore I am!

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 12:34 PM

Pete:

The fact that your thinking may not seem manifest to others has no bearing on the fundamental issue. If you are aware of your own thought, you must Be, indeed. No other explanation for it! Others' expectation are too derivative to be metaphysically binding on the question, so to speak.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 12:33 PM

Old philosophers' joke:

"So, Mr. Descartés, would you like another drink?"

"No, I think not." he replied...and disappeared.

(and eanjay...no need to be sorry *smile*...it's a good line and needs to be used often!)

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 12:29 PM

Then there was the time Rene Descartes was gazing blankly out the window and disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 12:15 PM

I'm puzzled. If "I think...therefore I am" is true....when I get yelled at, "Don't you ever think?" Does that mean I have ceased to exist? Or did I never exist in the first place? Puzzling.....

:0)

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 11:25 AM

Sorry Bill D, I haven't read the other threads or I wouldn't have used it. I can imagine it doesn't faze anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 11:17 AM

(and, eanjay, I have used that 'not being able to say "I told you so" 'line a number of times in discussions here...even in debates about para-normal experiences and Astrology. It doesn't faze 'em.)

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 11:12 AM

I think I think, therefore I think I think I am......I think.

I read most of the serious 'thinking' about the issue in college, and the main thing I learned is that reason, logic and science cannot give us absolute, final and ultimate answers.....

however.....

....they CAN demonstrate the flaws and weaknesses in any attempt to claim absolute, final answers.

Therefore, anyone who chooses to follow any system which asserts a claim about 'ultimate reality' and origins is merely defining their own truths and reasoning in circles....that is, they must assume certain premises in order to follow logic based on those rules. No law against it, but it's a slippery-slope which usually results in assuming that everone ELSE ought to be following the same system. Sound familar?

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 10:57 AM

Just a tiny, itsy-witsy, teensy-weeny, miniscule bit of proof - that's all I ask ...

Subject: RE: BS: Still no gods 2008 (continued)
From: Green Man
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 10:10 AM

Reality, The agreed upon 'is ness' of things.

Of course we exist. I think therefore I am. Hmmm..