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Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan

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M.Ted 09 Dec 09 - 09:33 PM
dick greenhaus 10 Dec 09 - 12:16 AM
GUEST,Songbob 10 Dec 09 - 01:58 PM
SINSULL 10 Dec 09 - 02:13 PM
Little Hawk 10 Dec 09 - 02:32 PM
The Sandman 10 Dec 09 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Songbob 10 Dec 09 - 04:39 PM
The Sandman 10 Dec 09 - 05:09 PM
The Sandman 10 Dec 09 - 06:14 PM
Little Hawk 10 Dec 09 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,Ben 06 Sep 10 - 08:55 PM
Bobert 06 Sep 10 - 10:53 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 07 Sep 10 - 03:18 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 07 Sep 10 - 03:39 AM
Joe Offer 07 Sep 10 - 03:40 AM
GUEST,Mike 01 Dec 10 - 01:54 AM
GUEST,Desi C 01 Dec 10 - 10:23 AM
GUEST 25 Apr 12 - 11:19 AM
dick greenhaus 25 Apr 12 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 25 Apr 12 - 02:36 PM
Jim McLean 25 Apr 12 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 25 Apr 12 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,DTM 25 Apr 12 - 08:21 PM
catspaw49 25 Apr 12 - 11:25 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Apr 12 - 12:26 AM
Les from Hull 26 Apr 12 - 08:58 AM
Tootler 26 Apr 12 - 10:13 AM
zozimus 26 Apr 12 - 12:25 PM
PoppaGator 26 Apr 12 - 04:29 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 26 Apr 12 - 04:47 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Apr 12 - 05:13 PM
The Sandman 26 Apr 12 - 05:44 PM
The Sandman 27 Apr 12 - 05:42 AM
Little Hawk 27 Apr 12 - 04:29 PM
dick greenhaus 27 Apr 12 - 05:43 PM
Tootler 27 Apr 12 - 05:55 PM
Tootler 27 Apr 12 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Stim 27 Apr 12 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,mando-player-91 28 Apr 12 - 08:08 AM
Fidjit 28 Apr 12 - 12:54 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 12 - 06:46 PM
bobad 13 Jun 12 - 07:13 PM
Fossil 13 Jun 12 - 08:00 PM
Dave Hanson 14 Jun 12 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Don Wise 14 Jun 12 - 05:24 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 12 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,Whistle Stop 14 Jun 12 - 10:30 AM
dick greenhaus 14 Jun 12 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Whistle Stop 14 Jun 12 - 12:59 PM
Leadfingers 15 Jun 12 - 07:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 09:33 PM

Be assured, Good Soldier, that it was a compliment of the highest order--honesty, and all..


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 12:16 AM

As a member of a minority, I can only say that I don't gine a damn where Dylan got his material--I'm just dismayed at what he did to it.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 01:58 PM

Dylan is Dylan is Dylan, to quote (paraphrase, actually) someone I once read. He was not a folksinger in the traditional sense, but definitely knows his traditional music. He has a radio show on Sirius or one of those sattelite channels, and presents some damn fine music with background info and commentary that shows he knows his shit.

He also puts on the public a lot -- I even wonder if the public, or part of it, puts him on. When he does a number at a Grammy or Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame show, his vocal is an even more unintelligible growl than usual, and the crowd goes wild. My question is, I know he's putting that on, since his records are much clearer of voice, but is the wild crowd reaction their own version of putting him on, or are they truly that clueless? My guess is some are truly clueless, and the others are putting on BOTH Dylan and the clueless zombie followers (that would be a good rock band name, eh?).

As for his music, there are "periods" where I loved everything he did, and other "periods" when it was purest shite. The problem is, I disagree with the critics on which period is the shittiest and which was pure gold.

Yes, a promoter -- do you know anyone who's successful in popular culture who isn't? -- and hardly a purist in his product. But still, a presence in that same pop culture we both absorb and denigrate. His 'catalog' contains songs as good, and as influential, as anything Johnny Mercer, Hoagy Carmichael, Lennon & McCartney, A.P. Carter, or even Woody Guthrie ever put out. Yes, there is dross, but the others mentioned didn't always hit it out of the park.

And as for Dave Brubeck or Charlie Parker, you (above) won't have any of their singing to criticize, as they were jazz instrumentalists, and the point of that remark was that the limitations of the octave and bar lines do not mean that 'most every combination' has been tried.



Bob Clayton


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:13 PM

"honesty is important,folk music is honest music, pop music is not.
why change your name?,it is part of you,it is, who you are. "

Of course, to make this statement true, first you have to define folk music and possibly pop music.
Good luck.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:32 PM

Good comments, Songbob. I'm curious...which periods of Dylan's work do you like the best? And the least?


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:35 PM

Farewell To The Gold,was a song Robert Zimmerman used to sing,but it was suddenly dropped from his repertoire,when he discovered it was not a traditional song but one written by another song writer Paul Metsers,that tels you a lot about Zimmerman.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 04:39 PM

"... periods of Dylan's work ..."

Well, I liked his earliest album, but by number 3 it was palling, then he went electric, and I enjoyed "Bringing It All Back Home" and "Highway 61 Revisited," but by "Blond on Blond" it was getting old-hat again. I didn't even listen to some of that 'middle period' stuff with the born-again-and-then-not material, but liked the stuff he did with the Willburys. There was one of his recent ones that struck me as more than decent, but I can't recall which one, and his latest (not the Christmas one -- the one before, that I got at a Starbucks) was pretty dull, though, bewing blues, was at least in a known tradition.

I think he did this thing of having really "hot" spells, then coasting (or at least turning cooler), and it may be the nature of musical genius. I know I had a period of writing in which I had idea after idea, and made at least a number of them work, then hit a dry spell. Writer's block, sort of, though it felt more like the well was empty than that the bucket had been stolen (somehow I hear the line, "The pump don't work 'cause the vandal took the handle," thinking of the metaphor I just used). I assume it might be the same with Dylan.

There are times you ache to say something, and can't think of an existing song that says it. Then you write. And when you write, other ideas come easily, even ideas you hadn't thought you'd write about, but there they are, so write away, right away.

And I guess there are times you can't think of diddley to say, even if you've set yourself up to create (no distractions, new strings, clean pad, lots of pens, liquid refreshment, maybe other musicians to interact with). Some of Dylan's imagery-filled songs, the ones from the late acoustic / early electric period, show a mind just snapping with energy, and I don't think he could keep that energy level going. I know I didn't.

As for specific periods I haven't mentioned, I can't think of them. In fact, I didn't really "get" Highway 61 till much later; when it came out, I was already lost in stringband music, and had nary an electric instrument to my name. Now, however, I can listen with an open mind, so I pick and choose among his songs, and probably conflate a bunch of them into a "period" that was in reality several different times in his life.


Bob


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 05:09 PM

ok, but any good songwriter,has those problems, Jimmy Miller wrote some very good songs,but sme that aebest forgotten.
in my opinion,Robert Zimmerman , has to throw himself into a new persona to overcome lack of creativity.
I found Chronicles a very interesting book ,it revealed much about Bob,including kidding himself pschyologically[all that rubbish about playing or singing on oddnumbers] but if it worked for him,what the hell.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 06:14 PM

john fahey is class.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 09:15 PM

I feel much the same about songwriting, Songbob. There are times when the stuff just pours out and times when the well seems to go dry.

The albums that I feel are Bob's strongest are:

The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan
Bringing It All Back Home (which is a masterpiece)
Highway 61 Revisited
Blonde on Blonde
Blood On The Tracks (another masterpiece)
Street Legal (undervalued by many people)
Infidels (though he could have picked some stronger songs from the same period which he left off the album, such as "Blind Willie McTell" and "Foot of Pride")

Some others I think are very good:

John Wesley Harding
Another Side of...
Desire
Shot of Love
Modern Times
World Gone Wrong
Empire Burlesque
Slow Train Coming

I also like the first album quite a bit. He plays very well on that one.

I like virtually all of them...to some extent...but I have a hard time relating to most of the stuff on "Love and Theft", for example. "Nashville Skyline" has some nice songs on it, but it doesn't grab my attention all that much.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Ben
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 08:55 PM

Bob Dylan's drive to become a "star" doesn't inherently discredit him as an artist. Many of the folk musicians we consider to be beyond reproach -- people like Jimmie Rodgers or Charley Patton -- have sought the spotlight and reveled in critical admiration.

While Woody Guthrie shunned financial success, he clearly wanted to be recognized as a great musician and a revolutionary influence on America. He cultivated his image as a traveling proletariat songster -- a portrayal that became increasingly divorced from reality in the years after Guthrie moved to Los Angeles and became active in the leftist intellectual movement.

Woody Guthrie is still a great (I don't want to say "the greatest" for fear of starting an unneeded debate on this subject) folk musician and songwriter.

Likewise, Bob Dylan has contributed an amazing collection of songs to our collective songbook. To question his intent in writing songs or to call him a "charlatan" does nothing to detract from the greatness of this contribution.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 10:53 PM

Hey, ya'll... We talkin' 'bout the greatest song writer of the last 50 years an here ya'll pickin'???

Sheet fire!!!

What???

The guy gotta drop doin' one of his radio shows to get them peoples linin' up to say, "Man, he was the *shits* (Georgia term fir awesome) 'er somethin' equally regionalized???

Ohhh???

Stolen???

Yeah, seems that I done, ahhhhhh, stol....ahhhhh....borrowed one of Bob's songs on my current CD.....

Nevermind that...

B~


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 03:18 AM

What bothers me about Dylan borrowing these tunes is that he is sometimes not honest about his sources; for example, "Lay Down Your Weary Tune" uses the melody from the very well known "The Water is Wide", a tune Dylan must have known from the Greenwich Village folk scene, but Dylan has to claim that he got the tune from some obscure Scottish folk song that he came across!


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 03:39 AM

Little Hawk, can I back up your comments about Street Legal? Worth the price of admission for the sublime "Changing of the Guards" alone. Although as a mere 46 year old, I have to declare that Street Legal was the first Dylan album I bought, so I suppose it will always have a special place. Other than that, Desire and Blood on the Tracks are wonderful to these ears.

Using old tunes is fine, I'd have thought, as long as you are reasonably upfront about your use of them. Richard Thompson's "Farewell, Farewell" for Fairport Convention is a beautiful song and uses the tune associated with "Willie O' Winsbury" to great effect. In fact, some of my favourite song writing involves adapting old tunes - as long as the new words are strong enough to do them justice...


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 03:40 AM

Darn, Tunesmith, all this time, I thought the tune for "Lay Down Your Weary Tune" came from "Waly, Waly."
[grin]

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Mike
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 01:54 AM

All that really matters are the moments in which a song is being sung. If those moments appeal to you then that's all you got to worry about.

The idea that something can be stolen only exists in some parts of the universe; if you're ever gonna get to a part where it doesn't you're gonna have to eventually stop believing that it does.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 10:23 AM

He proudly admits to being heavily influenced by Woody Guthrie in his early days and you can certainly hear that in the recordings. He was accused outright of palgirism by Irish writer Domininc Behan re Behan's song The Patriot Game, and indeed the tune is the same as Dylan's God On Our Side. But much as Im a fan of Behan's work, Behan himself notable nicked the tune for the Patriot game from an old Irish trad tune. And Dylan's God On our side is totally different lyrics. Behan was quite a cantankerous fellow and often flung accusations around.
Famously to the Clancy Bros for leaving a verse out of Patriot Game on their first album, the verse featuring Eamon Devalera. In fact Behan should have known that such a verse at that time would not be allowed under Eire's secret Censorship laws, it had already happened to him.
Dylan is reported to have kept a 'dignified silence, quite rightly, and as Pete seeger said in his book Rise Up Singing 'It's all part of the Folk Process'


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 11:19 AM

jim ulrich
pete seeger writes about the woman who came to him after a concert and said, you know that song you sang, isn't that the christmas charol fum fum fum? he said it was, but that it was news to him. most western composers are probobly unaware of the celtic origin of many of their musical phrases. so what? aen't we talking about folk music here?


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 12:26 PM

Of course, Behan's "Patriot Game" was set to the tune of "Hear the Nightingale Sing" (One Morning in May)


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 02:36 PM

The tune used for "Walls Of Redwing" is just "The Road And The Miles To Dundee". I don't know if Dylan just used it or claimed to have written it. I agree that the former is perfectly acceptable practice.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 04:43 PM

Dick, you're correct of course, but as I've pointed out many times before, Dylan parodied Behan's words to the same tune, proving he, Dylan, didn't hear the tune from the traditional Nightingale song but from Dominic's Patriot Game. I Know this as a fact as Dylan asked me about the Patriot Game when he heard Nigel Denver singing it in the Troubadour many years ago.
I think we should consider Dylan as a re-writer rather than a writer.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 06:52 PM

"I think we should consider Dylan as a re-writer rather than a writer"

Or perhaps both!


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 08:21 PM

I read a bio once and it claimed Dylan stole "Blowing In The Wind" from a classmate (who refused to confirm or refute the accusation). Classmates were quoted as saying they heard the guy sing the song before Bob.

Personally, I think composers should at least acknowledge any sources or references in their works if "sampled" from works by others.
Claiming it's all theirs when it is obviously not ALL theirs is shameful and, if it results in monetary gain, downright theft.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 11:25 PM

I have never understood the great antipathy so many around here have about Dylan. Probably we are the ones in the tens of thousands who know any of this. And there never seems to be anyone except Martin Carthy with a crapstorm going at Paul Simon and he got over it after awhile. God forbid if we don't devote our lives to to doing 3 part harmonies to the "Top 50 Child Ballad Hit List" while squeezing a melodeon with our asscheeks but I'll take a pass.

...........geeziz........gimmee peace.................


Spaw


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 12:26 AM

One of Dylan's most distinguished songs, The Lonesome Death Of Hatty Carroll, does have a tune that seems to be Dylan's own ~~ or can anyone name any other source for it?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 08:58 AM

I've been a fan of Bob's since his first recordings but couldn't help but notice that he credited Martin Carthy's singing of Lord Franklin (trad) for the tune to Bob Dylan's Dream, yet years later didn't mention Nic Jones when he recorded what I and many others regarded as a direct copy of his version of Canadee-i-o. Regular readers of this forum will know all about Nic's circumstances.
Still if we are considering 'failure to acknowledge sources' I offer two words. The first is Led ...


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 10:13 AM

What bothers me about Dylan borrowing these tunes is that he is sometimes not honest about his sources; for example, "Lay Down Your Weary Tune" uses the melody from the very well known "The Water is Wide", a tune Dylan must have known from the Greenwich Village folk scene, but Dylan has to claim that he got the tune from some obscure Scottish folk song that he came across!

18 months later, I know, and I know Joe Offer was joking but he had it in one. "O Waly Waly" is a Scottish variant of "The Water is Wide" so it is quite possible Dylan originally had the tune from that source.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: zozimus
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 12:25 PM

Hi Les,
There would have been many versions of Canadee-i-o available besides Nic Jones version that Bob could have based his version on.
Meanwhile, would it not be better, and take up a lot less space, if we could list the few songs by Bob that were in fact original melodies composed by Bob?


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 04:29 PM

"One of Dylan's most distinguished songs, The Lonesome Death Of Hatty Carroll, does have a tune that seems to be Dylan's own..."

Only one? Really? And such a simple monotonic chant, at that?

I think it would be nearly impossible to create as many songs as Bob has without borrowing phrases here and there, both musical and lyrical. As he famously said himself, when asked about his "influences," "All you have to do is keep your ears open and you can't help but be influenced."

Let me also point out that a preponderance of the songs itemized as being most obviously based on older material are Dylan's earliest compositions, from the 2-to-3 year period prior to the recording of his first album. In other words, from when he was learning to be a songwriter. I think it's obvious that his strategy for personal development as an artist worked.

Of course, the subject of this thread is "Stolen melodies," not stolen lyrics.

With all the decades-long discussion of Bob-as-poet, and about his lyrics, we tend to forget that he produced music as well as words, and that NOT every one of his melodies was "stolen" or even "borrowed."

One special favorite of mine among Dylan melodies is "Just Like a Woman." Beautiful piece of music that stands on its own even as an instrumental, in my opinion. Can anyone name a trad song from which THAT melody was nicked? I don't know of any such piece...

That's just one example. Dylan wrote some great melodies. Even in the lengthy article supplied by Spaw, there are many instances where the author makes note of a single word or phrase that can be found elsewhere in the canon, and concedes that the rest of the song in question is original...

Have I convinced any Dylan-haters to come over from the Dark Side? Hmmm, probably not. Just wanted to have my say, nevertheless.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 04:47 PM

I would like to point out that "The Star-Spangled Banner" has a stolen melody. It useta be an old British drinking (pub) song before Fancis Scott Keys put the the new patriotic words to it.

This don't seem to worry youse people too much, huh? Maybe because you don't even know? And mostly because Bob Dylan didn't do it? Possibly?

Then there's the one that goes "My Country, 'Tis of Thee, sweet land of liberty...of Thee I sing" etc.

THAT one's a stolen melody too! They got it from the British anthem "God Save The King".

Woody Guthrie stole lotsa tunes. So did many other well-loved musicians.

I could list lotsa other "stolen" melodies that people take fer granted too, stolen by all kindsa people besides Bob Dylan, but no one seems to care about those...cos BOB DYLAN didn't do it!

This is funny. ;-) Bob Dylan obviously has a real special place in certain people's minds...people that wanta hate someone in their own field, and hate him bad. He meets their emotional needs in that respect, while so many others don't. You gotta wonder just why that is...

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 05:13 PM

Didn't say "only one", Poppa ~~ I said "One of..." ~~ quite a common formulation, dontcha-know! Don't agree about the tune; think it an excellent word-carrying air.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 05:44 PM

Dylan[ imo] is a bore


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:42 AM

as a performer that is in 2012, in 1963 i would have paid to see him, and he has written a number of good songs


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 04:29 PM

Well, he hardly has any voice left at this point, if I can go by the last time I saw him live. I enjoyed the show, but it's too bad his voice is so wrecked.

Ian Tyson's voice is wrecked now too, unfortunately. They both are very fine songwriters.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:43 PM

It's only theft if you claim it as original and try to legally stop others from using it.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:55 PM

I really don't know why people make such a fuss about this. After all, using existing melodies for songs has been standard practice for centuries (literally).


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 06:23 PM

I meant to add to my previous post:

It's not as if he has exactly made a secret of it.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:53 PM

I just listened to the Nic Jones and the Dylan versions of "Canadee-io" side by side. It's one of my favorite Nic-Tunes, but I hadn't heard the Dylan version before. Don't hear any more similarity in the arrangements than you'd expect, given it's the same song.

Realized something else, though--Nic's version has a tight, rhythmic line in the bass that makes it special--it has almost a rock/R&B feel to it, and it's always reminded me of something, but I never could figure out what, till today. Check out Patti Smith's Because the Night

And no, he didn't steal it, he used it to make something that seems entirely different.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,mando-player-91
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 08:08 AM

I seen Dylan in concert oh around 4 years ago his voice was a mess then and it really wasn't much of a concert I think he even have been a bit lit as I could not understand a word of his songs or which song was which. Or maybe it was me that was a bit lit who knows


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Fidjit
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 12:54 PM

From the 8th. January '08 till today 28th April 2012. Not bad going for a thread.

Lots of likes and dislikes flying about. Never cared much for, Bob (He says, soto Rowan Atkins) myself. Was just interested in what he had nicked. And seemingly quite a lot. Made a packet out of it too.
I wonder if I SHOULD . . .   . No I can't go down that road. I will still give my sources and credit where it is due.

Chas


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 06:46 PM

Bob Dylan 's Stealing of James Damiano 's Songs

http://wikileaksyola.yolasite.com/


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 07:13 PM

That Wikileaksyola site appears to be bogus - it is not WikiLeaks.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Fossil
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 08:00 PM

Heavens, how nostalgic! The very first thread I ever posted on Mudcat, in September 2000, nearly 12 years ago, was about what I saw then as Bob's rip-off of "Canadee-i-o". And as I recall, I got pretty roughly handled by the locals for re-upping what was even then a very old debate!

Well, it was pointed out at the time that the song wasn't Nic's, he had acquired it from somewhere and Bob, like anyone else, was perfectly entitled to use it, bringing his own influences (which certainly included Nic Jones) to bear on deciding how to treat the material.

This debate is ultimately sterile. What Bob Dylan has given to the world is a body of very significant songs, lines that stick in the memory, and remembrance of touring performances that range from sublime to bloody awful. I have seen him live on many occasions and would go again in a heartbeat. You never know what you're going to get. But on form or not, drunk or stoned, Dylan can still give a crowd a good evening. And it really doesn't matter where the melodies come from.

"I was so much older then: I'm younger than that now..."


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 03:39 AM

Unfortunately the website bobdylan.com lists everything Bob recorded as ' words and music Bob Dylan ' including all the traditional songs and some of the early things he didn't write, I'm sure this has nothing to do with Bob himself but the over zealous person who runs the website.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 05:24 AM

@ Dave Hanson

More probably his management and/or Record Company.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 06:01 AM

I give Bob Dylan great credit for some wonderful prose poetry. Like Woody Guthrie said, it's the words. But Dyan had a knack for accompanying music that was most compelling. I just missed meeting him at the UofM.I knew his contemporaries: Maury Bernstein, who passed away and was a great folk guitarist, Keith Johnson, who has since passed away. And a guy who knew everyone, but I can't remember his name! He was later a used car dealer. Had a run down apartment building, like most UofM student lodgings were and still are. Claimed Dylan lived there off and on.

Later on around 1971, I worked at WLOL-AM in Minneapolis with a fellow radio DJ back in my radio days who was a boyhood friend of Bob Dylan, "Big John Bucklen. John has a nice memory site on the web. You Dylan fans should read it! I see via the web that John is either still in radio or semi-retired from it. I left the biz inn 1977, signing KTWN-FM, Anoka, over to "beautiful music." Ha! Elevator music was better than the format change from classical to no-class music. But such was and still is the radio biz. I miss it.

I'll have a write up about my quirky classical music days elsewhere in good old Mudcat. Cheers!


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 10:30 AM

I've always found this to be a pretty silly topic, but being a Dylan fan from way back, it's hard to stay out of the fray.

I think one thing that is lost in all this is that there are a gazillion songs out there, and when you narrow it down to songs that are in the style(s) Dylan does (American/British folk-based, in a comfortable singing range, constructed out of simple melodies over a few rudimentary chords, etc.), it's almost impossible to invent new melodies that aren't remeniscent of some existing melody or other. And many of the examples cited in this thread aren't exact copies of existing melodies, but are merely similar. Given how prolific a writer Dylan is, and the inherent limitations in his song styles, it's difficult to imagine what he might have done otherwise.

This also comes up in American country music, rock and roll, and especially blues, where the liberal borrowing of both melodies and lyrics is almost a defining element of the style. And along with various folk songs and stylings based around the Smith anthology and other similar sources, those are the three main elements that come into play in Dylan's music. But I rarely see these sorts of discussions about other songwriters, or even other folk-based performers (unless they're cited by people defending Dylan against these sorts of charges). Think about how many knockoffs there have been of Chuck Berry's songs, and ask yourself how many people have been taken to task for that (other than Brian Wilson for the "Sweet Little Sixteen/Surfin USA" connection). It makes one wonder whether those who object the loudest have other gripes with Dylan, and this is just an area where they think he's vulnerable.

In the end, I don't care if Blowin' In the Wind sounds kind of like No More Auction Block -- I probably would have never heard the latter if not for the former, and frankly (in my opinion, of course), Dylan's song is the better of the two.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 12:33 PM

Doesn't "borrowed" mean that they'll be returned?


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 12:59 PM

Did you really think that particular word was the central element of my post?

If you're really looking for an answer, I don't know of anyone who has been prevented from continuing to sing the other songs.


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Subject: RE: Stolen melodies/Bob Dylan
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 07:43 AM

100!!


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