|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Mar 08 - 09:58 PM Kendall, I don't know anyone who is seriously behind because of cost-of-living increases. Not ahead of it, but not really bothered. Business is booming. I was just offered $800,000 for a house I paid $29,000 to build. Several houses sold recently in my neighborhood, and they are being gutted and rebuilt with twice the footprint. I remember paying $4.00 a gallon in Europe years ago- it didn't seem to bother them. Everything hotsy doodle here. Of course this is Canada, not that old, rusted out place south of the border. Perhaps we should send you and Bobert a care package. That Bobert is something, isn't he? A leftover from the Guthrie years, surely. Got a provincial election tomorrow, but no one really interested in it except those running. Conservative, liberal- makes no nevermind here in Alberta. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 02 Mar 08 - 10:58 PM Thanks Q for your explanation. My perspective was as a consumer hoping that the Petro Canada on the corner would be able to keep its price to an honest return and force the competition to do likewise. When the government put the 10 cent a gallon tax on gas to raise the exploration fund money I grumbled but saw it as short term pain for long term gain. This created exploration but it was never developed enough to see the payback at the pumps. Alberta made it plain that they did not see a national oil policy as being to their liking and in the end won the day. I guess we have drifted the thread quite a bit but I'm afraid that I will always hate oil companies. :-} Sandy |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:11 AM Sandy, you won't see a 'payback at the pumps' unless Canada goes socialist. Even then, it would remain relatively high because of refining costs. Keeping to the inflation curve isn't too bad. Arctic Islands crude could be $150 a barrel, so it will be a while before that area is looked at seriously. Russia looks to claim the full extent of the Lomonosov Ridge, so offshore oil there will be developed by them. They are expanding their exploration rapidly off their west coast and north of Japan. Canada should have kept their national oil company, but thinking here is on the U.S.-UK pattern- The Russian-Saudi-Venezuelan-Mexican-Chinese patterns of state control are something we will never see. Canada has become a major supplier to the United States, more than from Saudi Arabia, etc. Approx. Imports by U. S. (thousands bbl/day) Canada- Total 2,300 (1,800 crude) Saudi- 1,700 (1,600) Venezuela- 1,400 (1,200) Mexico- 1,400 (1,200) Nigeria- 1,300 (1,200) Canada exports 1.77 million bpd, but imports 850,000 bpd (cheaper to supply east coast from abroad) The oil-gas industry paid Canada $27 billion in 2006- not a bad take, but I think Canada could squeeze a little more out of it without the U. S. invading. The industry provides 80% of Canada's merchandise trade balance. Figures from www.capp.ca. Can. Assn. Petroleum Producers) (I have put a lot of figures in these posts, but having them together here saves me the trouble of looking them up whenever someone asks. Digression, sure, but will be handy for me.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 03 Mar 08 - 07:13 AM Getting back to the thread subject there was a terrible oil spill a few miles from my home in 1970. The Arrow, a rust bucket tanker owned by Aristotle Onassis under charter to Imperial Oil (Exxon/Esso) with an incompetent master was loaded with heavy bunker c oil. (much nastier, stickier, and dirtier than crude) A mile of coarse on approach to the Strait of Canso it struck a reef in Chedabucto Bay. There is an excellent video here that tells the story: http://video.aol.com/video-detail/the-arrow-disaster/1871290739 The fishermen in the area never got a settlement anywhere close to what they did in Alaska. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: GUEST,Sandy (lost cookie) Date: 03 Mar 08 - 07:38 AM "of coarse " should have been "off course" of course. Also you have to watch an advertisement at the start of that video but it is worth the wait. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:04 PM Double-hull tankers are expected to be the standard by 2020. The Exxon Valdez was a major wake-up call. Governments, by denying docking facilities, could eliminate much of the problem with 'rust bucket' ships, but forcing poorer countries to comply may be a problem. All major petroleum shipping concerns are demanding double hull tankers. The tremendous increase in demand by China and India has put much pressure on tanker fleets. This may contributd to the use of old tankers, but I don't know Chinese or Indian regulations or if they are enforced. At the time you cite, nearly 40 years ago, regulations were lax, but have changed for the better. Shipping firms try to avoid dangerous coastal waters and currents, but there is no way to guarantee accident-free shipping; keeping accidents to a minimum, through regulations, is the best that can be done. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Barry Finn Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:30 PM "Double-hull tankers are expected to be the standard by 2020" That's 40 yrs to late! That's just using up the fleet untill the rust out. Silly logic. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:51 PM So junk any automobile over 3 years old and buy that new 'green' whatchamacallit. Same silly logic? Anachronistic thinking doesn't help. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Barry Finn Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:05 PM Your car Q in not a potential hazard to the enviorment??? but we'd all be better off if you & 1o,ooo others would go out & buy Hybrids now . All tankers built in the last 20 yrs should've been double hulled. Should we allow the fleet to rid themselves of 40 yr old rust buckets because it was to their advantage when they should never had been built to those standards in the 1st place? I don't think so. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: GUEST,chief chaos Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM Actually bunker c is a step up from crude oil (at least it's a "refined" product minus most of the impurities contained in crude. A few points need to be made here: 1. Hazelwood was found to not be drunk although he was observed by the Coast Guard to be behaving in an intoxicated manner. His innocence was more a matter of a technicality than a reality. 2. Clean up operations were not delayed by protesters. Personnel required to load equipment to respond to the disaster were not available until some 18 hours after the incident. 3. Manning and crew rest requirments are regulated and enforced strictly, however like any law, they can be violated until the violator is actually caught (you can speed until the cop stops you). In this case what Hazelwood did or did not do is directly the responsibility of Exxon. They are responsible because they put him in charge! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:29 PM The first double hull vessels were built between 1985-1990, small tankers of 75000dwt. They had crack problems between cargo hull and outer hull (explosion-prone if not repaired), first really brought up when a similar tanker built in 1992 was found to have cracks by the USCG. MARPOL (Prevention of pollution measures) first became enforceable in 1983 (double hulls not specified). Nearly all nations became signators. The National Academy of Sciences found safety benefits with double hulls in non-rocky areas, but with larger vessels and a speed factor, benefits were unclear. The technology was not in place before 1985. There is no point in saying it should have been there 40 years ago. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Bobert Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:12 PM Exactly, chief choas... What we have here is yet another step towards the corporatists having absolutely no "risk", what so ever... This is their dream... The perfect storm where ***all*** risk lies at the feet of the working man... And looks as if they have the perfect Suprme Crooks to pull it off... These Supreme Crooks have allready ruled against working class people in discrimination suits... These Supreme Crooks say it isn't up to the courts to decide discrimination matters... (Well, geeeeee... What is their job, Boberdz, if they say they can't be bothered with a woman demanding to be paid the same $$$ for the same job as a fellow male employee???) Good question... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Barry Finn Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:41 PM 2o yrs ago + the 20 Should've been 10 my mistake) yrs you're giving them to meet standards by 2020. So not 40 but 30 yrs. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Bobert Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:16 PM Why should Exxon even care, Barry... If they could move oil in ships with tin foil hulls they would... They don't a rat's ass about anything but linin' their pockets with our hard earned dollars... Nothin' else enters into their minds... And as for things entering minds (or not), the current batch of Supremes is just like Bush... Stubborn to a fault in letting, ahhhh, anything but their pre-judgements enter into their corporatist little heads... Alito, Scalia, Thomas and Roberts are the four most prejudiced Supremes Crooks the court, if you can call it a court, that this country has seen in one court going back maybe since the dinosaurs roamed the earth... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: kendall Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:37 PM Today, on National public radio, one of the EXXON public relations people was interviewed. He left no doubt in my mind that Hazelwood WAS drunk. And it was obvious that they want to stop the suits to protect their asses in the future spills. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 03 Mar 08 - 08:00 PM "Actually bunker c is a step up from crude oil (at least it's a "refined" product minus most of the impurities contained in crude." That is totally incorrect. Bunker "c" is the dregs from the bottom of the refinery still after the lighter petroleum products have been drawn off. It is only a bit above tar, thick and sticky and has to be heated before it can be pumped. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Bobert Date: 03 Mar 08 - 08:31 PM Righto, Capt'n... That is what this is all about... Thousands of families ruined by the oil spill and Exxon, which makes in 3 weeks enough to make these families somewhat whole again, says, "Screw all of you peasants... Go after Hazzelwood... Not our problem..." But guess what??? Remember me talkin' about the shifting of risk onto the taxpaying working class??? This is what has happened... Many of these families have had to accept governemnt help since they are destitude... Who pays for that??? We do... This is yet another instance where the risk of doing business is passed on down to the working class and away from the wealthy.... Yeah, we might have passed "welfare reform" in 1996 but we left out the real Cadillac moms... You know, the Dick Cheney's and the George Bushs... BTW, does anyone have a clue how George Bush got rich??? I do... Same game that E#xxon is playin' with the Supreme Crooks... Yeah, usin' power and a good 'ol American corruption to fleece the working class out of their tax dollars... And to the tune of $17M of working family tax dollars... But, all legal... Just as Exxon will get off this hook... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Mar 08 - 09:40 PM A little about Exxon's cleanup in Prince William Sound here. Valdez became a boom town. $3.5 billion paid. Not enough? Clean-up |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Mar 08 - 10:09 PM Brief note on the 1964 earthquake that killed 31, mostly children, at Valdez. Valdez Sound was severely affected by slides. The town had to be moved. The loss to wildlife was never determined. Earthquake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Bobert Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:50 AM You are missing the point, Q... There were thousands of mom and pop businesses that were ruined by the oil spill... Do you have a clue what a 50 foot fishing boat costs??? Or how much the monthly payments are on that boat??? Or the monthly payments on the diner where tyhe fishermen would take their families out to eat??? Or the movie house in town??? The mortgagaes on homes??? People's lives were ruined... Of course, Exxon had to clean the up their environmental mess the best they could... What about the mess the oil spill left in the families and businesses that were ruined??? That's the issue here... That is what Exxon says the Supreme Crooks should ignore... That is the issue... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:22 PM People got their boats paid for. Valdez was a village at the end of a pipeline. The clean-up brought in 10,000 people who were paid well and who spent freely. What "thousands of mom and pop businesses"? It is larger and wealthier now than it ever was. Your willingness to shout your ignorance is appalling. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Bobert Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:12 PM Earth to Q... Q???... You out there???... Earth to Q... Ahhhhhh, apparently you haven't been keeping up, Q... Where did all the herring go??? And salmon that eat herring??? Who is Mike Maxwell??? How many people's lives were devestated by the effects of the oil spill??? Google up "Cordova" for a reality check, pal... Talk about "ignorance"... But you'll love this one... My late daddy-in-law was a lobbiest for American Petrolium Institute... He testified before Conmgressional committees on oil spills and the crux of his sooothing arguments was "Don't worry, be happy" as he'd go on and on about how nature cleans itself up over time... "Don't worry, Hal"... lol... 4 years after his Valdez "Don't worry, be happy" testimony he was diagnosed with cancer... Too many carcitigens, the doc said was most likely the 'cause... Bad karma, if you ask me... I was sorry he got cancwer and later died from it but I've never forgotten his the first "Don't worry, be happy" sermon he delivered to me... Yeah, Q... Do a little research before you come back and call me "ignorant", thank you... B;~) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: kendall Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:48 PM That PR man I mentioned said again that EXXON had taken responsibility for the damage, and had spent 3.5 billion dollars as a result. Fine, problem is, the damage is still there. There is oil under every rock in the sound, and nothing grows there. Sure, they took responsibility, but it was limited to 6 weeks of their obscene profits. A pox on those money grubbing toads. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Peace Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:51 PM Yes, Kendall, but it was a WHOLE six weeks. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:55 PM My song on the topic....see the other thread Subject: Lyr Add: THE BALLAD OF JOSEPH HAZELWOOD From: *#1 PEASANT* - PM Date: 07 Feb 02 - 09:39 PM FOUND IT! Looking for a tune: THE BALLAD OF JOSEPH HAZELWOOD I am courtly and I'm canny But of wealth, I hadn't any So to earn an honest penny I've sailed the wide world round No silver spoon was sent me I must serve the sons of plenty Lacking face and duty They take the poor man's pound. They say I'm a drunken rover, A scoundrel and deceiver But I can drink and still say sober And stand steadfast to my ground I am careful of my duties Of mariners, I am the ablest If they'd left me in the wheel-house We'd have cleared Prince William Sound. I have known and loved the cold seas Better than wife or mistress Hand and eye were the surest And with success were crowned But they forced me to my cabin I was not at my proven station And like a wounded dolphin The Valdez ran aground. And for now the silent sand lies Memorial to dead seabirds Awash with oil-blacked corpses And fishes caught by crude Were I sated and not drunken Had overcome the censors If not prisoner below decks We'd never gone aground. But now the courts have freed me From the alcoholic's heavy mantle The price of fine is steep though The sentence I can keep In its words comes real freedom For this spirited canny captain Now many rounds will order While cleaning the sound's black border. Derek Ward (Bolton, Lancs. England) Conrad Jay Bladey (Linthicum, Md. USA) 4/1990. The motto of this little lay Some will anger others sway The drinker may a thinker be But when incompetent are sent They always be disaster bent. So learn you all that drink's no answer But never take as guiding pastor Those whose lessons fail to master. Conrad Bladey |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Barry Finn Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:07 PM Here's a privious thread on Wreck of the Exxon Valdez & here are the words to Geoff Bartley's song: "The Wreck Of the Exxon Valdez" In 89 I sailed on board, a tanker in Prince William's sound I gave warning from the bridges wing, on the night we ran aground CH. Oh I've been away it's a sorry tale I'll tell my (....?) I'm a native of these stromy seas, who's (hit ?) hard ground by the wreck Valdez The pipeline taps the north slope, 800 miles from Beaufort Bay Through nickle steel poured in Japan, 2 million days every day Our ship was fresh pumped full of crude, near a 1000 feet & laid in style From 15 knots you could shut her down, she'd drift a good 10 miles I don't know how we strayed off course when red lights to starboard I could see And besides Sat/Nav & twin radars there's Cats 2 & Loran C (these are all electronic navagational system) And as the monster struck Bligh Reef the mate had failed to swing her round The gentle nudge that riped her clean sent that oil into the sound And now yes the judge was not prepared with (disperson?) booms (ready cruise?) And a slick the size of Rhode Island spread for every day that we did lose I cannot help but love the land but we're treating her like our young whore When the eagles & the fish lie heaped all along the blackened shore And now we just pay more for fuel the cost has been pasted down we learn And the helpless anger that I feel, it could make these waters burn If anyone can fill in the missing or questionable words it would be appricated It's not only about responsibility & compensation it also about the oil companies not having the right to plunder & rape the worlds' resources & then to add to that the enviormental damage they leave in their wake, that's what the really need to pay through the nose for. RUINNING our Earth. Thanks Barry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: GUEST,Chief Chaos Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:38 PM I'll beg to differ on Bunker C being worse. As far as the technology not being there for double hulls, it's the same situation that we have with off shore oil platforms. They are required to use the best and latest technology to operate. Sounds good, but when there is no research being done because the oil companies won't finance it or if the technology is applicable to their operation it gets quashed before it sees the light of day, you won't see the technology develop. Unless it improves their bottom line you simply won't see it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Bobert Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM Dick Cheney's "Energy Plan" at work!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:19 PM Chief Chaos, I am a bit confused about what you differ with. Bunker "C" is not distillate, but the bottom dregs of the refinery still containing all of the residual toxins mixed with enough distillate oil, usually #2 (furnace oil) to make it soft enough to be pumped when heated. It is one hell of a sticky mess when spilled on cold water making it very difficult to clean up. I'm not saying that crude is nice stuff by any means but this is worse! I have seen it! http://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/802/59981/ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Exxon: Drunk Ship Captains Wanted... From: kendall Date: 05 Mar 08 - 06:47 PM Old Downeast proverb: It's a dirty bird that beshits its own nest. That's exactly what we have been doing for many years. |
