BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?

Subject: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:28 AM

I came across this today, which made me think.

http://www.darkage.fsnet.co.uk/



Here's a short excerpt.

"A dark age is a melting pot when the old, exhausted institutions of a society are broken down and destroyed. Something new and better suited to human needs can then be built up in their place.

Western society displays the classic symptoms of a civilisation in decline. It is destined to collapse--just like every other civilisation there has ever been. The world will then enter a new dark age. This will be a time of great turmoil, suffering and insecurity. It will also be a time of opportunity and creativity. When the dark age ends, other nations and races are likely to take up the baton of human progress. They will lead the world in a new era of tremendous achievement. "

What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:38 AM

Yes and no.

And I'm not being facetious with that answer.

Read Miller's "A Canticle For Liebowitz."

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: bankley
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:04 AM

thought we were in an Old New Age..... or maybe just old age..

what was the question?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:11 AM

I'm still trying to get a grip on the Age of Aquarius.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:34 AM

Aquarius? I thought they said aquariums. Damn, now what am going to do with all these fish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Green Man
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:46 AM

Dark age indeed, actually we are just coming out of a dark age.
The cycle is usually only recognised in hindsight.
Tell me that WW1 and II were part of an age of enlightenment.
The good old days are now, the dark age is slipping away and hopefully we are entering a new renaissance, one in which we will achieve a kind of tolerance for each other.

Now if you want to see regression the British Government are regressing toward a totalitarian state. Now if only the general populace gave a sh*t it might not happen.

This is the year of the Rat. It probably means that most of Britains politico's are going to have a good year.

Back to the trees I say!

GM

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:57 AM

We are living in a dark age now. A return to the "Gilded Age" of privilege for the rich.
We have a guy in the White House who has lost it. We have shadowy figures guiding a war policy for munitions manufacturers. We have home foreclosures because lending companies have cheated homeowners through sub-primes. We have people who don't have health care that every civilized country in the world provides for their citizens. We have homeless veterans living under bridges. We have rich CEO's taking home enormous benefit packages and salaries but refuse to pay taxes that could help our infrastructure. We have voter fraud by crooked machines being manipulated by sophisticated hackers. We have media blackouts on important world events by such devious outlets such as Fox News and even CNN, ABC and NBC all owned by corporate heads that control what we can see.
We have torture being used and justified. We have eliminated "habeas corpus". We have an epidemic of gun violence recognized by the CDC as one of the most debilitating diseases.
We have a "do-nothing" Democratic congress who is willing to go along with Dictator Bush.
We have people being imprisoned for political reasons.

I think we can safely say that we are in the dark age now.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:10 AM

We never left to Old Dark Age.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:10 AM

To rephrase that: We never left the Old Dark Age.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:25 AM

I think...'load of crap'. Which enlightened age would you prefer to live in?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:42 AM

It hasn't been the same since flush toilets, has it, wld?:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:57 AM

We're definitely entering a new feudal era, that's for sure. But while the system seems to be becoming feudal, the larger population seems be be becoming more enlightened. My hope is that the enlightenment will overtake the feudalism before we enter a dark age like the one that happened in the Middle Ages. Although if we start flinging nuclear bombs around, a truly dark age could happen pretty fast (if anyone survives it).

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 12:38 PM

"We are living in a dark age now. A return to the "Gilded Age" of privilege for the rich.
We have a guy in the White House who has lost it. We have shadowy figures guiding a war policy for munitions manufacturers. We have home foreclosures because lending companies have cheated homeowners through sub-primes. We have people who don't have health care that every civilized country in the world provides for their citizens. We have homeless veterans living under bridges. We have rich CEO's taking home enormous benefit packages and salaries but refuse to pay taxes that could help our infrastructure. We have voter fraud by crooked machines being manipulated by sophisticated hackers. We have media blackouts on important world events by such devious outlets such as Fox News and even CNN, ABC and NBC all owned by corporate heads that control what we can see.
We have torture being used and justified. We have eliminated "habeas corpus". We have an epidemic of gun violence recognized by the CDC as one of the most debilitating diseases.
We have a "do-nothing" Democratic congress who is willing to go along with Dictator Bush.
We have people being imprisoned for political reasons."

What Frank said.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: pdq
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 12:45 PM

Hard to know (or guess?) what somebody else means by "dark age". May we assume it means a repeat of the Dark Ages?

Can't happen because history does not repeat itself, despite that famous statement. History is cyclic but not repetitive.

We live in pretty "dark" times when normal conversation revolves aroung belly button piercing, oral sex and (C)Rap.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 01:02 PM

"Which enlightened age would you prefer to live in?"

Well, weelittledrummer, there are a whole bunch of good possibilities.

For instance, there was a time of great peace, national happiness, and prosperity in China, during the reign of "the Yellow Emperor". Look it up and read about it. There have been many great times and places in different parts of the world, any one of which might be quite a favorable choice, if one had the choice.

It would be facile to think that what we have now is the best it's ever been. It would be equally facile to think it's the worst it's ever been...in a general sense, I mean. (It may be the worst in a few specific senses, such as regards environmental damage, for instance.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 01:28 PM

No way. We have more information available than ever before in history -- especially internationally.

Yes, we seem to be going through an uncomfortable, awkward period of time in which many are incapable of discerning reality/fact from disinformation (see the kookiness of religious belief evident in the current thread about 9/11 conspiracies).

So, sure, more people than ever will find a reality that tells them what they want to hear (their favorite conspiracies and cult beliefs) rather than what is actually true, but true science and empiricism will eventually win the day as it has througout history.

The only way I could see us actually heading into a "dark age" is if the new corruption that is falsely referred to as "science" -- that of the Dawkins/Hitchens ilk -- ever really takes hold, I could easily see us sinking into a "Brave New World" of eugenics, genocide, and other abominations done in the name of convenience (or in the name of solving the population crisis). But I have my hopes that that vacuous philosophy will be defeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:04 PM

Well said, John Hardly.

Although hope may not suffice given some of the present "conveniences".

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:30 PM

Good Times End Times
as events grow worse
its too late to learn
if you worship the curse

It may be our turn
with sorrow to come.
Still, the Dark Age
was Golden for some.

DOo Hackman 10/17/2001

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:34 PM

We have only today yesterday is only a memory and tommorrow a dream. So why waste time worrying if this day is better or worse than any one of a million others just live it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:37 PM

Wise words, Megan. That's the way any dog or cat would see it, and some cats are zen masters.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:43 PM

I agree to some degree that the practices of the current Administration see pre-Enlightenment.

But economically and materially, the average person in this country is so far ahead of where he would have been int he dark ages, the comparison is ludicrous.

A person who works with his hands and tools, such as a cart mechanic, furniture maker, or the like, in the Dark Ages, was abysmally ignorant, constantly under threat of extreme hot or cold, death by arbitrary whim, terrified of dark forces, and economically barred from ownership. He had no plumbing, few clothes, no mattress, little furniture, no lamps or oil, and was lucky to have firewood or peat to burn, meat once a week and a coat to wear.

A person in the same status, economically, in this country, may live in a rented apartment; but he has a dozen outfits, electric lights, gas heating, a telephone which reaches around the world, a TV which can provide a huge spectrum of educational information and entertainment, a warm bed, decent shoes, and probably an automobile which outperforms the most luxurious noble's transport of the Dark Ages. He may be strapped down, economically, but he is not a slave, and not likely to have his head cut off for having a bad attitude.

Give me a break.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,Voice of Truth
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:45 PM

It's a comforting cliche to say live for today, but for millions of people who lack adequate housing, health care and work that pays their bills, this is indeed a dark country and each day brings fear and struggle. True, many people are middle class, and a few are super rich, but even if it's a minority, it is a SUBSTANTIAL minority of people who live in dire poverty in the so called richest country in the world.

But it is not until the darkness the millions are already suffering from starts creeping up towards those in the comfort zone that anything will be done. And then the rose colored glasses of the upper classes will be removed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,PS. Voice of Truth
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:47 PM

You don't have to listen to me, you can listen to Iris Dement's

"Wasteland of the Free."

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:02 PM

"It's a comforting cliche to say live for today" "And then the rose colored glasses of the upper classes will be removed."

The trouble with truth is it is an individual thing. By the way VOT for many of us live for today is not a cliche it is all we can do. My husband lives fulltime in his wheelchair I cant walk more than a few yards without wheezing and pain, neither of us are able to work and must exist on benefit. Oh we do have a nice house but only because the housing association finally found us a place in a shceme for the ancient and decrepit before that we spent 19 years with a private landlord in a cottage that had ratsin the attic mice down below, dry rot , wet rot, rising damp and rain that poured in. So before ye open yer mooth and let yer belly rumble aboot how horribly middle classed we all are sit doon and gie yer brains a rest.

Meg whas auld and decrepit and grumpy as hell

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:08 PM

But... wise, Megan.

We should all wish to be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:16 PM

I am willing to mail you a broken record I have here, Amos. Will that do?

Voice of Truth - What you say about people's suffering is 100% obvious, and everybody knows it. At least I hope everybody does! I sure do. That in no way changes the philosophical usefullness of what Megan said. Both your viewpoint and hers are equally valid, and they do not, in fact, conflict with one another. They are like apples and paper clips...just two completely different matters. They apply to life on different levels. One is an observation of what is happening in the world. The other is a way of coping with one's own consciousness and behaviour from moment to moment.

In other words, it ain't any use setting them up as supposedly opposing notions and arguing about it. ;-) They are not opposing notions.

The best way to live on any particular day is to be fully aware of what you said about life and about the good stuff too...and at the same time to make the most positive use possible of your own individual time and circumstances (whatever they are), which is what Megan said. The two are not in opposition to one another, and it's not an ivory tower view held only by the rich and comfortable. I've seen people in bad situations who stayed positive. They were strong people, natural leaders, and they were inspiring to those around them.

Who would you rather have for company in a really BAD situation? Someone who rages and despairs about how awful it is, how unfair it is, who gnashes his teeth, and tears his hair out...or someone who siezes the moment to do something positive, something brave, something beautiful? This can happen even in the worst of circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: mg
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:45 PM

You never know of course..anything can happen..but we are heading, in my opinion, for an unparalleled time of economic prosperity, increased freedom, better agriculture, better understanding of health problems, greenhood, etc.

Various factors:

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:47 PM

Every so often I hear some say that they "channel" someone from the past. This is usually a Prince of Atlantis or the Empress of Mu or some other unprovable member of the nobility. Nobody says, "I'm channeling a peasant girl from the 8th century -- I was gang raped at age 10 and left to die in ditch by a bunch of mercenary soldiers that had just burned my parents hovel and them in it." That's what life was like for 99% of the people in the last Dark Ages -- nasty, brutish, and short.

Are there people in the world today who are suffering? Obviously.

Are there warlords arising? Yes.

Are we headed for a new "Dark Age"? Not necessarily. It may not be obvious, but we CAN avoid it. A soupcon of wisdom will go a long way -- and it's there. We need the collective ability to recognize true wisdom and the collective will to make it work.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:00 PM

yesterday's a memory
tomorrows just a dream
la lala la lalala
makes me want to scream.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:02 PM

We're not now? Why wasn't I informed? :~) Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:04 PM

Be here now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:04 PM

Dark ages for whom? What do you mean by 'dark ages'?
When Europe endured the 'dark ages,' the Arabic-Sephardic Middle East region was progressive; now it looks like the Middle and Eastern Asian world's turn to bloom (again?)

The 'dark ages' of Europe, in a sense, was a period of status quo, desperate for the basal majority, as Amos describes it, but relatively good for the small middle class including the churchmen, shopkeepers and artisans, politicians, mariners, etc. But even they, echoing Amos again, would rejoice in many of the things that the poor of the U. S. have today.

Slowdown, yes. Lowering of expectations, perhaps. But many will reap satisfactory gleanings stemming from the new entrepreneurship developing in China, India, and the Emirates. Globalization is the new reality and the new opportunity (vide Wal-mart, Ikea).
Dubai has parallels with Venice of the Renaissance. Shanghai and Mumbai are the re-invention of the New York and London of the latter 19th c.

(Not really pertinent, but yesterday I was saying Alas! for Canada. Stanfield's in Canada was THE source of underwear, and a source of pride that Canadians could make such a good quality product. I looked at the label in my Stanfield's briefs, and Lo! "Made in China." I believe "Jockey" were an old UK brand- I looked in a pair of "Jockey" briefs and found "Made in Mauritius").

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,Voice of Truth
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:06 PM

Little Hawk, I would love to believe that everybody knows and agrees that there is something wrong in people's suffering, but judging by the callousness of the upper echelon in the class system in this country, I think we have a long way to go.

Who would I rather have for company in a really BAD situation? I would rather have people who can admit there is something wrong - even if they nash their teeth -because they are the only ones willing to do something about it. I don't need people who are saying just enjoy your bowl of oatmeal, I would want be surrounded by people who are NOT willing to ignore there is something wrong with poverty, with racism, sexism, with slavery, and with all the many ills that HAVE and DO plague our society. THOSE are the people who will lend a hand, and lead to a better world. Whether it is how they vote, or how they contribute to their small or vast community, it is always the people who do not want to ignore injustice, who have been the ones who step in to do something- whether it is to prevent child abuse or protect workers from exploitation.

HOWEVER, I do agree, that in fighting a daily struggle, such as Megan describes, it is helpful to believe that any day one is alive is a good day. On a personal level, it is sometimes the only way to keep ones sanity. HOWEVER, I was talking about people who are comfortably middle class, Megan, not people who are struggling for each breath.

The people I have seen who are sincere and effective fighters for a better world try to live with a positive view of life- but they will not be distracted from the hell many people live in by phrases and cliches that just appease and mollify. (This is what made Reagan so appealing, in my view, he could just mouth a cliche like 'there you go again' and then try to cut benefits to disabled vets while no one was looking. And with this censorhip of so called negativity, he ushered in a 'greed is good' mentality that this country still embraces all too well) I have admiration for the struggle you survive every day Megan, but I still say that for the people who STILL live in the rat infested, cold and hazardous conditions you describe, we need more than a rosy view of the world. Big Brother can only fester and flourish in an atmosphere of stultifying censorship. The truth, it has been said, will set you free.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:20 PM

I did not mean, in any degree, to minimize the struggles of the struggling or the suffering of the suffering. There is no doubt there are grim and awful conditions that some people in this country have to endure -- and even more people in North Africa, the Middle East, Asia and India have to endure. I have visited the tawdriest slums in Mexico and in the urban dumping ground of MOrocco, and thank my stars I have not had to live in either. I have visited jungle homes where a good snake in a frying pan over an outdoor fire is a meal on good day. I have sometimes found myself on the street, for short periods. Not for long, and not often.

But I do not think "the Dark Ages" is a useful term in describing the economic, informational or cultural comditions in the West today. I think it is a histrionic exagerration, compared to the general shape of things, including the decline of superstition, even if it is insufferably slow.





A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: mg
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:24 PM

Oops. Various factors.
Most important..birth control and less interference from religions on familiy planning matters. Unfortunatley, this has also made it easier to have teen births, out of wedlock births etc. But nevertheless, the population is declining ..almost everywhere..or the rate of growth is dropping quite rapidly.

Internet -- people can learn skills, learn languages, communicate with experts..diagnose diseases, learn some reading skills, get ideas on solar power etc. at the click of a mouse. Of course the down side is that terrorism, etc. can also be rapidly spread.

Almost free energy -- they are making windmills in Camaroon out of car batteries and probably old beer cans. Can America be far behind? We are on the verge of very free energy..I remember, living on the Columbia River, how electricty was so cheap as to be almost free when I was young. It will be that way in Siberia and France and Paraguay very soon with solar, wind, tide, etc.

Lowered consumerism. A lot of energy, family working energy, breadwinner energy, went into things like newer cars, keeping up with the JOnes, suppporting 8 children instead of 2...outfitting teenage girls. Now some girls have entire wardrobes made out of about 2 square yards of fiber so there is savings right there. Also, they say with the new fibers that clothes do not wear out like they used to.

Mass culture..McDonald's and Barbies and Shake and Bake. No one is fond of all that they stand for, but it is easier to have unified whatevers if cultures sort of loose their edges..not that I think this is a good thing, but there will be some advantages and fewer conflicts etc.

Vaccinations and the chain of refrigeration to support it.

Understanding of diabetes, which is behind so many diseases of the industrial world...including heart disease, probably cancer...and it all has to do with diet...and too many carbs, refined or unrefined, helathy or unhealthy..for a particular metabolism. ONce that is understood better, and most of the information is in place right now, health problems in USA and elsewhere will melt away. Watch my words.

Microloans--the guy who developed them has calculated how much it would take, family by family, to eradicate poverty and it is doable, via rickshaws, and taco stands and village cell phones owned by widows etc.

Availability of morphone for pain control. Those Afghan farmers could be raising enough to medicate the world if WWIII breaks out.

Pharmaceutical and natural remedies for illnesses. Cinnamon for diabetics, tumeric for inflammatory processes etc.

Science will explode. Medicine will explode.

We will have little devices to ride in that do not require roads..just float a few feet off the grounds..like the ferries do already.

HOpefully we will reach the tipping point on understanding how behaviors cause society to break down. Behavior can be interferred with through architecture, lighting, visible police, the talking telephone poles etc. We will not be afraid to tell teens that it is hurting them, and the taxpayers, and most importantly, their children, if they have babies when they are unmarried and can not afford a child.

That is the key right there to poverty. Responsible reproduction. Responsible in not overpopulating the plant, responsible in taking care of your own children, perhaps with help from society, but again with responsible parenting. Adoption and foster care support. Some ability for foster parents (perhaps they have this) to say I want to choose the children I foster because I know I really at this point can not take either very depressed passive ones, or very aggressive violent ones or whatever. If there were more choice in the matter of foster parenting, I think there would be way more foster parents.

I believe, with no evidence whatsover, that we will get smart about building out of sticks and cardboard and return to stone type construction. Especially in hurricane and tornado zones..fire-prone places. THat is the dumbest thing aobut America I think...that and the fact we can not move goods to disaster areas or poor areas easily..if you want to get something to the victims of a Cameroon mudslide, how do you go about it? First of all you have the Red Cross or someone saying don't send goods, send money. Heard that in Katrina...well, trucks with water were turned back. Swiftboaters were turned back. We have to have an attitude of solving problems rather than being obstructionists.

HOpefully a good person like General HOnore in charge of Fema orwhatever, with knowledge that your first line of defense in many situations is going to be the young people, particulary young men. All students need to be trained in first aid, disaster prepardness and disaster responsiveness and be prepared to use chain saws, cook for crowds, administer first aid etc., do crowd control..

Well, that is allfor now...but it is all there ready for implementation..which I think Obama will be good at..very good..except for standing up to our enemies...which might fade away. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:55 PM

mg

Remember the movie Life of Brian when they were discussing "what has Rome ever done for us, nothing except inslave us"? ... what about the roads? ...of course there are the roads but besides that nothing.
...and health care?
Besides roads and health care they haven't done anything.
...and the wine?
...and the aquaduct?
... -a 20 item list-
Well besides all that, what has ROme ever done for us?

Your post reminded me of that hilarious scene.


The ruling class have little reason to think anything is wrong except for being stuck in a margin call and selling their hedge funds.

If you had several billion dollars, you might not be as self absorbed as most in the American Ruling Class, but you would be prone to being a bit more positive during the coming meltdown than the families that never dreamed that they would face the stark realities of homelessness.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:58 PM

Rapaire, you said of people who say they remember past lives or are channeling someone from the past: "This is usually a Prince of Atlantis or the Empress of Mu or some other unprovable member of the nobility. Nobody says, "I'm channeling a peasant girl from the 8th century -- I was gang raped at age 10 and left to die in ditch by a bunch of mercenary soldiers that had just burned my parents hovel and them in it."

On the contrary!!!!!!!! I've met a lot of people with some insight into past lives (including myself) and the vast majority of them remembered quite ordinary lives...not the lives of anyone famous. Uh-uh. Sorry to disappoint you, but most of us "past life" people seem to have had lives that did not cause a single dot or exclamation point in the history books. Just like now. ;-)

Channeling as well very frequently seems to tune in ordinary people from the past...but that doesn't sell as many books as tuning in someone really important or famous, does it? So maybe the bestselling books you've heard about in the media are real channeling...and maybe they're not.

You (and many other people) may have only noticed those people who said they were channeling Cleopatra or Mark Antony or John Kennedy because it made a good story, I think.

Like the "little green men" bullshit that is endlessly blathered by sceptics to attack the credibility of people who've had possible alien sightings, your view of past life stuff and channeling seems to have been colored by some of the more lurid reporting in the sensationalist media rather than by actual experience.

I've heard a ton of past life stories. Hundreds of them. Among those hundreds, there were, I think, about 2 or 3 people who had the notion that they'd been famous or had been among the nobility in some past life. Same goes for channeling. It's usually someone that nobody alive now ever heard of that comes through...a farmer (or farmer's wife), a trader, a merchant, an artisan, a scribe, a peasant, a soldier, a householder, a servant girl...all types right across the board.

********************

Voice of Truth - Can't find anything to argue about in what you said there. Sounds reasonable to me. The problem with that upper class and the source of their callousness is that they are motivated by the "money game". They want more. That's how you "win" the game, you make more money. Nothing becomes more obsessive than playing a game...it takes over a person's thinking and they forget all else. The money game, unfortunately, is a game that most people on this planet lose, and that the planet and all of Nature loses as well. Such a game leads to disaster, and our money isn't even real. It's a made-up thing, a fiction that people concocted. Now they serve it like it was a god.

I share your disgust with what is going on and your revolutionary fervor about the situation 100%.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:07 PM

LH, I specifically stated that I hadn't run across anyone. I can only speak from my own experience and, frankly, I haven't really investigated it beyond the cursory. I have looked more deeply into other things, including the UFOs (unproven, in MY mind, but not impossible or unbelievable), sasquatch, and a number of other things. Some I do find unbelievable, most I give a verdict of "not proven."

That's one nice thing about my job: it FORCES you to remain open-minded about a lot of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:16 PM

Yeah, but not so open minded that......................you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:21 PM

Thank you, Little Hawk. If you would like an insight into one program that I think may have a positive influence on poverty in America, you may want to read Kenneth Rank's "One Nation, Impoverished."

In it, the economist reveals that at any one time, at least 20% (yes, one FIFTH of our country) lives below the poverty line. He also describes a three fold plan that can eradicate poverty in our country.
one: national health care
two: affordable housing
three: (which I feel is the most pressing of all) a LIVING minimum wage.

It would bring about a more just nation. One in which EVERYONE has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Pretty forward thinking document, that constitution of ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,Voice of Truth
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:22 PM

Sorry, that last post was mine. And now, goodnight, I am going to a Motown Revival tonight, perhaps even sing a few, and going to have some fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:31 PM

To be open-minded is simply to admit that one doesn't already know everything...or that one doesn't know for sure about something in particular.

Such admission is not very forthcoming from most people when it comes to matters that they automatically dismiss for no other reason than their own prior prejudice and beliefs.

The Sasquatch thing is interesting, Rap. Like you, I would say that for me it remains intriguing, but unproven. Same goes for the alien visitors, but I lean strongly to belief there, because of personal experiences I've had.

A thing is not said to be "proven" in this society until the society's ruling authority figures SAY officially through their media and educational system that it IS proven. And till that happens, the average person tends not to believe in it, simply because he assumes that the ruling people must KNOW. He engages, therefore, in an act of faith, just like people who assume that the Pope must know.

What can change the average person's viewpoint is a direct personal experience. He then no longer gives a damn what the ruling authority figures say about it, because his own experience outweighs what they say...for him. And for him alone.

He has, in that moment, become someone who will probably never again trust the ruling authorities of his day as completely as he did when he was young and impressionable. He has lost innocence to some extent. The innocent always believe what Daddy and Mommy tell them is true, because they think Daddy and Mommy are infallible. It's not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:40 PM

John Hardly wrote but true science and empiricism will eventually win the day as it has througout history.

It would be nice to think so, but I fear we are looking at the mass dumbing down of America in our generation. (See Susan Jacoby on Bill Moyer's Journal of Feb. 15, 2008). Critical thinking isn't widely taught in the lowest common denominator, the public schools, because learning critical argument would lead students to uphold the importance of the separation of church and state. This separation has been so challenged in particular by zealous evangelical christians, that "science" has become a dirty word in many school districts. It looks like a naughty subject to be supervised by the church. Others who haven't taken time to think about it don't understand that "Science" and "Religion" are not equals, they're not poison and antidote, they're not related, except for those who would try to debunk all of Science in order to get their hands on one little idea that the otherwise overfed, bigoted and not-that-nice British man Darwin published in Origin of Species. But he wasn't alone, there were convergent scientific voices, and there has been a lot of solid science since Darwin. All ignored or dismissed by a group of religious leaders who can't bear that their world view isn't THE world view of all. They would indoctrinate the world in their religion through public schools if they could. This isn't all religious people, and I think there is finally a more mainstream backlash against the few who would make life so miserable for the many. But it has been slow in coming and doesn't pack the punch it needs to knock that nonsense out of our schools. Yet.

I have said before, and most likely will again, that religion (EVERYONE's religions) is too important to let one dominant zealot-driven industrial religion dictate to the public education system and the courts such matters. They would codify their beliefs in the laws for all. Keep all religions out of government and schools. Start teaching good science again and stop being afraid the Baptists down the road won't like it.

Religion is the opiate of the masses, but another opiate of the masses is the mass consumption of material goods. It's amazing all of the STUFF that even the poorest of the poor own these days in America. So the rich and powerful who want to control things to get bigger profits (think Teapot Dome, Savings and Loan crisis, etc., as big exmaples of what is still going on today all around us) can either push religion hard, or push consumer goods hard. If you aren't seduced by one, you are likely to be seduced by the other.

Anyone else notice that Feed The Pig commercial on TV?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:42 PM

I have to second LH's voice on this one point. I know scores of people who have experimented with regression therapy and the majority of them have run into ordinary, even tawdry and grim lives. PErhaps there is a reason this stick harder in memory.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:44 PM

I think I remember past lives..not in one was I noble.

In one I was a red-headed captive of the Vikings I think..like dark red hair...I was perhaps a tanner of hides. A psychic told me I was in shackles but eventually they were removed. I was quite young..18 or so that I remember. I stirred pots of things on the edge of the forest above the sea.

In another I was a Ukranian woman, probably a mother, taken from my home and shot, probably in a field of snow. I remember quietly leaving my little house, perhaps not to wake children..with one of those big Ukranian stoves in the corner taking up half the front room.

It is possible, because I have vague memories, that I was a very little girl during WWII and in one of the POW camps for Dutch women and children on one of the islands in the Pacific. I would have been very blond-haired ...very curly..which actually I was in this life.

The psychic saw another life where I was a Mother Superior of a convent and like a botanist or herbal healer...I don't remember that one but I sort of can a bit but it could be a false memory syndrome. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:47 PM

YEah--you gotta be leery of people who can see "your" pictures and hand out interpretations. It ain't healthy to bend your wits around material as your own which is actually someone else's view of things. Makes it hard to think with.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:47 PM

Oh, well. I tried.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:53 PM

Voice of Truth - Yes, the three-fold plan you quote is exactly what should be done. Everyone should be guaranteed those 3 things in a decent, modern society:

one: universal national health care
two: affordable housing
three: (which I feel is the most pressing of all) a LIVING minimum wage.

If they were, you would see an absolute transformation for the better and a tremendous drop in crime and other social problems.

Interestingly enough, those three things are among what the Cubans have tried to do ever since their revolution...and they've partially succeeded...but they've been terribly hampered by being subjected to a crippling economic blockade by the Superpower. Relatively speaking, they still have great poverty compared to us (although not such great material disparity), but they do have the national health care, they do have affordable housing, they do have a totally free and universal educational system right through university, and they do have a very high national rating in public health...plus the poverty they have is considerably less severe than is the case in other Latin American countries in that same region...countries which have not been embargoed or penalized by the Superpower.

Damn good job, considering the blockade.

It is because they wouldn't play in the big western hemisphere "money game" which is run by the Superpower that they were blockaded in the first place. It was all about money.

It's always all about money. Money, as I've said, is the ruling "god" of this system. We live and die by it and for it...simply because we have unwittingly consented to.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:26 PM

Stilly - Whaddy mean..."I tried" Are you feeling ignored? ;-)

Look, you said a lot of good stuff there. Yeah, the separation of church and state seems like a darned good idea to me. The present alliance you have in the USA between neocon politicians and a certain form of simplistic literalist Christianity is simply extraordinary. You won't find anything really comparable in any other western democracy at this time, I don't think. It's bizarre.

Therefore, it seems to be an exclusively American problem, and a BIG one.

But the REAL opiate of the masses nowadays is the other thing you mentioned, "the mass consumption of material goods". That is the opiate that is driving society, running the economy, and wrecking the material world.

As for the "Feed the Pig" thing...yeah. Right on. People in this society are constantly encouraged and seduced into spending themselves into debt. They are given credit cards to encourage them to spend money that they don't yet have, and that's done to keep the wheels of production turning and to hit them with interest charges when they are late paying. It's utter irresponsibility, encouraged from the top down with a ceaseless flow of advertising, and it's done so those at the top can get richer.

My Dad fed into that system perfectly. He spent money like it was water. He was always in debt. Heavily in debt. He finally left this world leaving nothing much but a whole bunch of unpaid debts in his wake. My Mother, fortunately, was not inclined that way in the least. She saves money. So do I. Neither one of us has ever been in debt so far in our whole lives...and let's hope it stays that way.

I do not buy today what I cannot afford today, it's that simple. I pay all bills in full by their due date. The credit card companies hate people like me. ;-)

Do I have too many material possessions? Yeah. A few too many. I'm a North American. I've seen how Third Worlders live, and I'm spoiled with unnecessary possessions to some extent (although far less than many of my peers have, that's for sure). I've kept things fairly simple for a North American.

*****

Past lives. I have had memories of being...an Indian warrior out west somewhere...a young, shy middle class woman in Victorian England...a military pilot in one of the World Wars...a minor officer in the infantry in another war...a traveling minstrel in the medieval times... All of those lives were fairly ordinary on the surface, but they all had their joys and challenges, I'm sure. The value of a life is not determined by your fame or your social standing, it is determined by the growth of character, awareness, and consciousness, moulded through experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:49 PM

Frank Hamilton is correct.

That is why Michelle Obama's comments about "pride in being American" are right on from where I sit---indeed where I've been for the last 15 years.

Where does that leave Joe Campbell's admonition:

Go forward and experience joyous participation in the sorrows of our lives

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:53 PM

SRS, a nice rant.
But people prefer drifting and sifting along. Thinking gives one a headache.

Got a glossy little mag (a throwaway in affluent Calgary neighborhoods) in the mailslot today, that gave me that nice, warm, fuzzy feeling, to know that I belong to the group the magazine is aimed at.
It advised me that hibernating is so winter, it's spring and time to wake up and make-over (Lots of re-dos to do).
A full page color advertisement extolled that little Porsche beauty that my tongue hangs out for, only $139,500, delivered to my door.
Or I could enjoy Paris in the springtime and make a little detour to pick up my sporty Audi R8 (another adv. to make one drool) for touring and shipment home (that would impress the neighbors with their mediocre Jap Lexus).

For my breakfast tomorrow, I am considering this little omelet recipe from their gourmet page. It's for 8, so I could invite a few from a shelter to sample it with me.

Scrambled Eggs with Lobster and Caviar

Ingredients
4 tablespoons butter
6 shallots, minced
2 cooked lobsters, 1 1/2 pounds each,
to make 1 1/2 cups lobster meat, chopped
into 1/4 inch chunks.
2 plum tomatoes, seeds removed and cut into
1/4 inch chunks
2 tablespoons chopped tarragon
16 large eggs
1 cup cold lobster bisque (heavy cream may
be substituted)
4 tablespoons chopped chives
Salt and freshly ground black pepper
1/2 cup crème fraiche, whipped
8 teaspoons black caviar, best Russian or Iranian

Presentation
4 ostrich egg shells, cut in half (nest in support pots in beds
of salt)

Instructions
Heat the butter in a large sauce pan. Add the shallots, 1 1/2 cups lobster meat, tomatoes and tarragon; and saute until warm.
Beat together the eggs together with the lobster bisque, add to the pan, and stir continuously over low heat until the eggs are softly scrambled. Stir in the chives and season with salt and pepper. Set eight ostrich-shell halves in bowls or pots on a bed of salt.
Divide the egg mixture among the eight ostrich shells nestled into bowls or pots on a bed of salt.
Top each portion with a dollop of whipped crème fraiche and 1 teaspoon caviar.

SRS, I know you contribute to food threads and this recipe is a hotsy doodle doozy.

Dark ages are so Mediaeval.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:55 PM

Sort of sounds like the cop out of the Serenity Prayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:59 PM

Be sure to use Lobster Helper!!!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:02 PM

LH, I give lots and lots of things the verdict of "Not Proven." It means that I can always come back and render a correct verdict (from my point of view, of course) when there is more evidence one way or the other.

I also think of Andrew Carnegie's statement that "The man who dies rich dies disgraced." He was a robber baron and quite a few things, but it appears that he did try to live by that rule, giving away about 75% of his fortune to found libraries (as well as the Carnegie Foundation).

Mind you, I think that he might have given his workers a bit of a better deal and collected a little less money himself. But the principle still stands -- and there are going to be a lot of disgraces before long.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:04 PM

Personally, I hate the idea of the little critters being boiled alive.
But, if I am to be a member of the affluent class, I will have to put my little prejudices aside.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:12 PM

Being boiled alive is a bad way to go. Still, I have to admit that I once ate 25 undersize (quite small) lobsters at my uncle's place in Prince Edward Island. It was an illegal meal, and a crime against crustacea, but I was sorely tempted. I mean, look, if I had not eaten them someone else would have!!! ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:15 PM

Stilly:

I share your concern concerning critical thinking and the fear of an autocratic AND dominant religion creeping in to the national exchange.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:18 PM

As does most of the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:59 PM

If we use our home computers to post public messages on an international forum, and if we say on that forum that we are already living in a feudal dictatorship in a Dark Age, have we moved beyond hyperbole, into the realm of delusion?

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:50 PM

That depends on how rigid or literal your definitions are of the terms "feudal dictatorship" and "Dark Age"...

They are metaphors.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:51 PM

Jump into the Blog Bog?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Jim Martin
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:03 AM

We seem to be heading for a new dark age so far as the biodiversity of the planet is concerned, it's disappearing at an ever increasing rate!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:11 AM

Little Hawk,

I know that "feudal dictatorship" and "dark age" are being used as metaphors, hence my reference to hyperbole.

Even a metaphor has a truth value. A metaphor is, by definition, not literally true, but it may be figuratively true or it may be figuratively false.

If I say it is, right now, as dark as pitch outside, that's a metaphor. Since the sun is now shining brightly, it is a false metaphor. If I were to say I'm so skinny that, when I stick my tongue out, people think I'm a zipper, that would be a metaphor. If you knew my waist size, you would realize it would be a false metaphor. If Bill Gates were to say he is as poor as a church mouse, would you point out that he was using a metaphor, or would you point out that his metaphor was false? If William Shatner were to say he sings like a bird...oh, never mind.

Anyway, for someone in the U.S. (or Canada or the U.K. or Australia, etc., etc.) to say they are now living in a feudal dictatorship is a metaphor all right, but it is a false metaphor.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 12:36 PM

Kent Davis, where on this thread is the term "feudal dictatorship" used prior to your post?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 01:48 PM

LOL!!! I like your false metaphor about how skinny you are(n't), Kent. Good one. ;-)

I think that the metaphor of feudalism could definitely be used to describe the way that giant corporations are exploiting cheap labour all over this world right now. I think that the metaphor of dictatorship could be used to describe how 2 (or more) phony political parties and a compliant national media (all funded and run by the same set of big money players) are being used to defraud the general public and serve the giant corporations. As for "dark age", that's a pretty flexible one. It can simply mean a time when certain key values in society have deteriorated badly. You can make a case for that right now too.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:53 PM

Yes - headlong, in the case of the US. (Am only answering thread title now, will read rest of conversation soon.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Jim Martin
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 10:54 PM

Seems like you are playing with words - meanwhile the biodiversity of the planet is still disappearing at an alarming rate - which is what really matters!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:18 PM

CarolC,

If the exact phrase "feudal dictatorship" had occurred prior to my first post, I would have put it in quotation marks and attributed it to whomever had used it.

Stringsinger's post (Feb. 29, 9:57 a.m.) said, in part, "We are living in a dark age now." He also described President Bush as a "dictator". Your post (Feb. 29, 10:57 a.m.) said, "We're definitely entering a new feudal era, that's for sure."

Did you mean that we are becoming a feudal democracy? If not, do you think we are living in a feudal dictatorship?
   
Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Slag
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 12:34 AM

It really depends on how you define your terms. I disagree with the definition offered in the original post. And "Yes" Rap. I have read "A Canticle For Liebowitz" more than once. A classic of the genre and definitely not limited to the genre.

Elements of a Dark Age are all around us. You can have a technologically advanced civilization and still be immersed in a Dark Age in which the masters of technology become the high priests of all that may be considered beneficial as well as controlling. It is amazing that what transpired in Europe after the collapse of Rome never touched the Far East (though they had a problem of 'social stagnation' but that's another topic) and it was shortly after this time that Muslim Empire(s) reached the height of science and technology of its time. And of course natural causes played an important role in all this too: the Little Ice Age and the plagues to name, probably, the two biggest contributors. Throw in the ascendancy of Aristotelian logic the temporal powers of the Church of Rome and the relation of Charlemagne to the same and you have the recipe for all that is now our history.

The main component of the Dark Ages was IGNORANCE. When the powers structures embrace ignorance and superstition as fact and impose the same upon those who look to them for leadership, look out! Some of the flippant remarks above demonstrate the proper attitude of those who would take us down that road. Oh, I know. It was witty and clever and you *really* know what's going on...but do you? And if you do, how about those who only *think* they know and really believe what you say? It really is a serious topic that deserves a serious discussion because your children and your children's children will reap which ever way this particular discussion goes.

One of the biggest problems with democracy is that the majority can be wrong and when "Truth" becomes the domain of popular opinion we are in trouble. This is one of the reasons why I often stress the need for logic in this forum. And some of you may say "Isn't this the guy who is always trying to make a case for God?" the answer is "Yes!" I do believe in God but I also believe that God gave us the brain power, for the most part, to reason out right from wrong and understand our world on its own terms, whether we believe in Him or not. In other words you can be a religionist or a Christian and be dead wrong about the how-and-why of this world or you can be an atheist and be right on about the how-and-why of our material existence. Of course the reverse is also true. Truth stands on its own. Period. That is why I embrace the scientific method of reasoning concerning all things worldly.

Concerning things spiritual and moral I take Jesus Christ's point of view as delineated in the Bible. And if you wish to debate THAT aspect of what I have said, it is the subject matter in OTHER threads already going. Just keep in mind that it was the Protestant Reformation which provided much of the impetus which lead to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and the same carried over with the advance of reason right up until today.

A lot of things and topics have been mentioned above, such as global warming, biodiversity, corporations, Bill Gates, giant lizards and Atlantis, and true or untrue, these things do not get to the heart of what could cause the collapse of our civilization. In all cases it would be a combination of events and circumstances but at the heart of it would be ignorance, apathy and self indulgence.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 01:05 PM

No, I don't see it as a dictatorship (yet), but I do see it as an oligarchy that is in the process of establishing a corporate version of feudalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 01:25 PM

Carol, Bush is a latent dictator and has said he was (abeit jokingly). I think of certain
corporate actions as dictatorial in practice. Oligarchs can be dictators.

"Just keep in mind that it was the Protestant Reformation which provided much of the impetus which lead to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and the same carried over with the advance of reason right up until today."

Bear in mind also that the Protestant Reformation gave rise to witch-burning and the subjugation of reason and the advancement of science as well. Reason is being hampered by the vestiges of the Protestant Reformation even today as we find the rise of Fundamentalism and ignorance surrounding us in a dictatorial manner.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 01:49 PM

the Protestant Reformation which provided much of the impetus which lead to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and the same carried over with the advance of reason right up until today.

When pointing to a successful action, it is a good idea to isolate what it was that was successful.

The Big Idea of the Protestant revolution was that an individual soul has the freedom and right, by the nature of things, to explore Infinity on his own, and no authoritarian dictate should stand between him and his own draft of Infinity.

The witch hunts were a backlash against those principles, I would argue, not an extension of them. A backlash in which the corruption and temptation of power again raised its ugly head even in an organization founded on libertarian principles. What worked as a result of Luther's stand was the notion of individual thought as the primary resource of all social schemes, which was a big slap in the face to the previous principle of Endowed Authority as the primary resource.

But mankind is a roller-coaster crittur, and has built into his makeup the devices which cause the roller-coaster to plunge into ignorance even as it is gathering steam to rise above it again. Mob panic and authoritarian thought have presently intruded further into American life than they usually are, thanks to the right-end extremists like Coulter, Hannity, Bush, Cheney, Limbaugh, and other dark-masked clowns of dictatorial bent. So those lements of the Dark Ages -- the espousal of ignorance, fear, uncertainty and doubt -- are more in evidence than they were perhaps under the Kennedy administration, say.

If you hold onto the bar in front of you and keep urging the car forward, the panicky screams of descent can be relplaced by the elation of swooping upwards again, hopefully to a higher peak than you started down from. I'd like to believe that, anyway.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Slag
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 06:16 PM

True, true. It didn't happen over night and it hasn't reached a magnificent conclusion yet! It is all about the steps forward. Not the side trips and not the backsliding. It's not an easy journey and no one has reached an ultimate awareness. But know that the enemies of human PROGRESS are chiefly those I mentioned: ignorance, apathy, self-interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:06 PM

Wal, I agree about ignorance and apathy; but self interest has raised a lot of folks out of a rut. There is a balance quality sometimes referred to as "enlightened self-interest".   I think that is where the sweet spot lies. Strong individual drive combined with an awareness of consequences and how the larger group reaches toward the optimum balance of individual and common interests.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:24 PM

Slag

One of the biggest problems with democracy is that the majority can be wrong and when "Truth" becomes the domain of popular opinion we are in trouble.

Possibly, but as a famous man once said, the alternatives are so much worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:49 PM

That's correct, if the only things you define AS "the alternatives" are ARE the things that have already been tried AND that are worse.

I think there are probably some better possibilities that not only haven't been tried yet, but have quite possibly not even been thought of yet. It would astound me if our present version of what we call "democracy" was the finest possible social system people can attain to. ;-)

Not a chance, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:03 AM

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way--in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.

What the Dickens do you expect?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Slag
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:26 AM

Perhaps self interest is the wrong term. Self indulgence to the exclusion of concern for others. Unbridled hedonism? Greed? Want or wantonness? Amoral or immoral self pursuits? I'm hitting all around it but I'm sure you get my drift.

Great Scott! Who wrote "Ivanhoe"? I'll tell you if you can tell me who in the dickens wrote "A Tale of Two Cities"! (Groan)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,Stigweard sans cookie
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:30 AM

" It would astound me if our present version of what we call "democracy" was the finest possible social system people can attain to."

Because it isn't - "democracy" has become interchangeable with "capitalism" and along with laissez-faire economic policies have created a society of astounding inequality (I would suggest you could call this Western Capitalism as practiced in the US, Canada, Australia and UK).

Of course this is heresy in some parts of the world - the suggestion that the western capitalist system we have spent so long defending has become as corrupt as the alternative systems (I hesitate to use the word ideologies - communism and democracy have never been practiced in their purest form, so we can't be sure which works best) and doesn't serve the needs of the people who live under it. It's not long before the cries of those with vested interests drown out the disenfranchised voices calling for change. The media, big business and the church is largely controlled by white Westerners with a lot to loose if the status quo changes.

The new dark age we find ourselves on the brink of

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:33 AM

*. . . is a result of the increasing power of private business seeking nothing more than profit, by religious fundamentalists threatening the rule of law via terrorism and threatening the system from within with it's backward way of thinking and rejection of reason and tolerence.

* Pressed the wrong button : )

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:39 AM

Little Hawk

That's correct, if the only things you define AS "the alternatives" are ARE the things that have already been tried AND that are worse.

What all the alternatives to rule by the majority (past, present and future) have in common is that they are rule by a minority, possibly of one. I don't believe this can ever be a good thing.

our present version of what we call "democracy"

Is that democracy?

Slag

Perhaps self interest is the wrong term. Self indulgence to the exclusion of concern for others. Unbridled hedonism? Greed? Want or wantonness? Amoral or immoral self pursuits? I'm hitting all around it but I'm sure you get my drift.

That the heaving masses would be better off ruled by a select elite of virtuous, intelligent people such as yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:05 AM

and along with laissez-faire economic policies have created a society of astounding inequality

The economic policies are not laissez-faire. The economic policies are those of a cronyistic kleptocracy. That's not in the least bit laissez-faire. It's corrupt, and it's a huge part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:19 AM

Right, Carol.

Snail - Our societies are NOT ruled by the majority! Anything but. Our societies are ruled by a rich oligarchy who control and manage some phony, corrupt political parties who run periodic elections in which the majority are encouraged to go out and rubber stamp some candidates who have been picked by and funded by the rich oligarchs, and who usually are themselves among the ranks of those rich oligarchs.

To imagine that this is genuine rule by the "majority" of our citizens is utter fantasy. The majority no more rules this society than they ruled the Roman Empire under Caesar.

The majority sits helplessly upon their couches, gawking at their TVs, and goes to the mall and buys what the TV tells them to. The majority gets overweight and bored and awash in consumer goods which cannot provide true happiness. At very rare intervals about half of the majority troop wearily out to the polls to choose between tweedeldee, tweedledum, and tweedledummer...all of whom have been hand picked ahead of time and blathered about constantly in the corporate-controlled media...otherwise almost no one would vote for them.

The only hope for the majority in a system like that is that an honest and capable politician will somehow slip like a Trojan Horse through the corporate net unnoticed by the oligarchs and actually try to change things once in office. It's a slender hope, but it's better than no hope at all, right?

This is not majority rule. It's domination of the majority from cradle to grave by a tiny and very rich minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:42 AM

The only hope for the majority in a system like that is that an honest and capable politician will somehow slip like a Trojan Horse through the corporate net unnoticed by the oligarchs and actually try to change things once in office...

...and somehow manage to not get killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:50 AM

Little Hawk, I was talking about Democracy, not about the way that any particular modern society that choses to call itself a democracy is run.

I completely agree with your last post but as I said before, "Is that democracy?"

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:16 PM

It bears the outer appearance of a democracy. It has the Constitutional and legal framework in place by which a democracy can, theoretically, be run....providing that the corrupting influence of big money does not compromise and destroy the democratic process.

It's like one of those western town sets in the old movies...it looks real from the front, but there's nothing real behind the facade.

Sadly, mere laws and rules are not enough to protect a society in themselves. A superb constitution cannot protect a society if its spirit is not honored in practice. You also need a genuinely enlightened group of people at the top among the leaders, and you need a very well-educated and well-informed public as well...plus you need a public with high ideals and aspirations...rather than a public tuned in to mere survival coupled with self-indulgence.

These are not easy things to achieve! One would have to remake this society from the top down to restore a genuinely effective democracy and to honor the Constitution's original intent. One would have to eliminate poverty, reduce the enormous gulf between the haves and have-nots, and greatly reduce the effects of commercial advertising. One would have to provide greatly improved education and medical care to all people in the society. One would have to provide more affordable housing and more job opportunities to the unemployed.

All of the above would require bringing in various forms of socialism...a concept which has been turned into a dirty word in the USA by the oligarchs who want only to enrich themselves and maintain their monopolistic habits.

I don't expect any of this to be solved before I shuffle off this mortal coil... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:28 PM

Little Hawk

You also need a genuinely enlightened group of people at the top among the leaders

How is that group selected? What gives them their authority?

On the whole, I think we are arguing from the same side. Remember that my initial posting was in response to Slag's apparent wish to disenfranchise the majority on the grounds that "the majority can be wrong".

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:42 PM

"How is that group selected?"

Oh, well, there are many ways for that. Each society has to find its own procedural ways of selecting its leaders, and we have some ways set up already that actually WOULD work just fine if the influence of big money had not completely perverted and taken over the process.

Your real question should be: "How do we reform our political process so it cannot be hijacked by wealthy interest groups?"



"What gives them their authority?"

Again, the laws enacted in a society are what gives its leaders their authority.

But what you were really asking was "How do we get a group of genuinely enlightened people into positions of leadership?"

Wow! That IS the question, isn't it? Well, I don't know how, under the present circumstances. The odds against it occuring are simply tremendous.

Like I said, I do not expect to see these matters all solved before I die. The world is an imperfect place.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 12:43 PM

Even today when it reaches 6 o'Clock we experience scattered darkness folowed by hours of total darkness.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:01 PM

Yes! I've noticed that too. I noticed it last night. Undeniable proof!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:01 PM

The greatest threat to Democracy is not oppression by the powerful, for that oppression can be overthrown. The greatest threat is apathy of the citizenry, for an apathetic citizenry will never acquire the knowledge to propose a better way of governing themselves, nor muster the raw passion required to set a revolution in motion.

The Roman citizen is a first rate example. As the Republic slid into Empire, the ideals were easily abandoned, for the people were sated with bread and distracted with circuses. But the United States is fortunate in one respect; our ideals of Democracy have a concrete embodiment in the Constitution, and that is a thing that, to an educated populace,should hold more value than bread and circuses. It is for that reason that one should view the erosion of our educational values with despair.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:08 PM

Indeed, LEJ.

How many of your citizens do you think have a good and detailed knowledge nowadays of what's in the USA Constition?

I think you will find that what most of them have is some sort of vague and generalized notion that they live in a land of "liberty and freedom" and that those are supposedly synonynous with the Free Market system, and that's about as far as it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:16 PM

little Hawk

But what you were really asking was "How do we get a group of genuinely enlightened people into positions of leadership?"

No I wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:17 PM

Sorry!

What were you really asking?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:51 PM

I think you will find that what most of them have is some sort of vague and generalized notion that they live in a land of "liberty and freedom"

To this I would add, "a vague and generalized notion that they live in a land of 'liberty and freedom' and that for this reason, they have a duty to do whatever their government tells them to do".

Ironic, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

From Hardly...

"No way. We have more information available than ever before in history -- especially internationally.

Yes, we seem to be going through an uncomfortable, awkward period of time in which many are incapable of discerning reality/fact from disinformation (see the kookiness of religious belief evident in the current thread about 9/11 conspiracies).

So, sure, more people than ever will find a reality that tells them what they want to hear (their favorite conspiracies and cult beliefs) rather than what is actually true, but true science and empiricism will eventually win the day as it has througout history.

The only way I could see us actually heading into a "dark age" is if the new corruption that is falsely referred to as "science" -- that of the Dawkins/Hitchens ilk -- ever really takes hold, I could easily see us sinking into a "Brave New World" of eugenics, genocide, and other abominations done in the name of convenience (or in the name of solving the population crisis). But I have my hopes that that vacuous philosophy will be defeated."

We certainly have more data than ever. Whether it is information or not depends upon our ability to process it.

There is is certainly an anti-science, anti-reason trend in the USA, but it is not coming from Dawkins or Hitchens. They are a couple of old fashioned debaters who are only relevant to that section of society who have a firm interest in the intersection of religion and philosophy and no firm grounding in either. Those who know philosophy have heard it all before and made up their own minds.   Those who are firmly grounded in religion really don't care about the opinions of fundamentalist atheists.

IMHO, there are some trends in our society that do point to the recreation of a dark age. Many of these have been touched upon in this discussion.

The "debate" on climate change. Is a choice of ignorance. I see the politicians, pundits and opinionated boors who oppose it as simply those who do not want to take responsibility for their own wastefulness. We won't recognize Kyoto, because it is not fair that the USA would have to cut more than China. This seems pretty silly to one who has driven in Atlanta during rush hour where a simple sweep of the eyes can see literally hundreds of single occupant 13 MPG SUV's and ones experience indicates that a similar number occupies every quarter mile stretch of dozens of highways in a 50 mile radius.

Nope, people deny global warming because they want their Escalades and Ford Expeditions. It is ignorance by choice. Remember the lyric "There none so blind as those who WILL not see."

People deny evolution because they want to think they are better than monkeys without taking responsibility for being better. Saying that you are God's special creation and that God can absolve all of your mistakes is a lot easier than actually behaving better than monkeys do.

A monkey will shamelessly take another's food or territory, Bush and his minions apparently have shame when they do so. So they feel the need to say that their instructions come from God.
A monkey will shamelessly masturbate another monkey. Larry Craig did similar things but still insists upon his denial of Darwin.
A monkey will shamelessly fling turds at his tormentors. Every politician does this, few embrace their monkeyness.

A self anointed modern American "Christian" leader, whether preacher or Republican, and many self righteous monkeys will claim Devine separation from monkeys, act like a monkey, then blame their monkeyness on their departure from God's will. I think that God did make man in his image, but that he made all other things in his image as well. He simply holds man to a higher standard. It would be a much better, more peaceful world if all men would would embrace their monkeyness while endeavoring to let their humanity prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:27 PM

The above post, starting with "From Hardly" was from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:31 PM

new corruption that is falsely referred to as "science" -- that of the Dawkins/Hitchens ilk

Guest, it would appear you have never read much of Dawkin's actual presentations. He is analytical and scientific in his data and in his analyses. I would hazard a guess you are reacting against your own perception of 'conclusions you don't like'.

But...let us not start that thread all over again. IF you have read The Blind Watchmaker I think you will agree he is not unscientific.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:00 PM

Amos,

How are you me old trout?

That was a quote of John Hardly. All the first section in quotes was from him.

My opinion of Hitchens, and my answer to Hardly's comments about him was as follows....

There is is certainly an anti-science, anti-reason trend in the USA, but it is not coming from Dawkins or Hitchens. They are a couple of old fashioned debaters who are only relevant to that section of society who have a firm interest in the intersection of religion and philosophy and no firm grounding in either. Those who know philosophy have heard it all before and made up their own minds.   Those who are firmly grounded in religion really don't care about the opinions of fundamentalist atheists.

I don't know that Mr. Hitchens would appreciate being called a "fundamentalist Atheist" but that is what I call him, believing it to be accurate. He seems far too shrill, and has far too much faith in the power of Atheism to cure the world's ills, to be called anything but.


BTW, sorry for the lack of italics, I seem to have forgotten some of the conventions of what I call "Mudcat Markup Language."

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:10 PM

Little Hawk

What were you really asking?

I'm not really concerned (at the moment) with the mechanics of implementing a system but with the choice of underlying principle.

Any system would be subject to the same dangers of being hijacked by the wealthy; it is not just a weakness of democracy.

As I said, this started with Slag's suggestion that the majority can't be trusted to come up with the "right" answer. I'm still waiting for his response.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:33 PM

the majority can't be trusted to come up with the "right" answer.

Of course they can come up with the right answer, if proper attention is paid to implementing and preserving the system. The US system is best for preserving individual liberty. The British/Canadian/Australian etc etc is the best for domestic peace order and good government.

It is when the system is ignored that the problems occur.

How did the the USA come to point where oaths to obey the Constitution and mottoes like "give me liberty or give me death" are erased by "the Islamic boogie man is lurking under your bed. Be afraid, be very afraid. Only high oil prices, unfettered cronyism and an all powerful Executive Branch can save you."

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:10 PM

hee hee - was that a "futile" democracy? Oh, no, sorry, you said "feudal" (oops!)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

"I'm not really concerned (at the moment) with the mechanics of implementing a system but with the choice of underlying principle."

Yes, the choice of underlying principle is very important. I think a great many nations and constitutions have been founded upon extremely visionary and idealistic underlying principles...specially following revolutions. Idealists launch revolutions.

Pragmatists and bureaucrats and various powermongers often seem to take over in short order, however.

Perhaps that's because the idealists get in the way of various ambitious people.

Can a majority be wrong? Definitely. Majorities have frequently been wrong. Does that mean that we are better off ruled by a minority? Not necessarily, because minorities are frequently wrong too!

Like I said, it's not a perfect world. We makes mistakes, and as time goes by we learn from them.

In the 30's and 40's, for instance, Germany and Italy and Japan set out on some very aggressive empire-building and warmaking around various regions of the world. For awhile it worked well for them, but in the end it proved to be a huge mistake.

I think the USA is presently making a similarly huge mistake in regards to its so-called "War on Terror", but they have not yet reaped the full consequences of their errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:17 PM

If you don't have principle at the top, pals, you sure aren't going to get it in the middle management or the trickle-down immorality of the Bush administration years. That's why Barack Obama is critical; he's a force for the light side.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:22 PM

Little Hawk

Does that mean that we are better off ruled by a minority? Not necessarily, because minorities are frequently wrong too!

My position is that rule by a minority would be wrong even if they were right.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:08 AM

"Cinnamon for diabetic"

I have a friend who did that - nearly killed himself before dragged off to hospital with a blood syrup level of 56. Have been trying to locate any real info on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:06 AM

"Just keep in mind that it was the Protestant Reformation which provided much of the impetus which lead to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and the same carried over with the advance of reason right up until today." - Slag

I believe that you have put the cart before the horse.

The "Rennaissance" and subsequent "Enlightenment" were the result of the fall of Constantinople. This resulted in a mass exodus of scholars fleeing west into Europe. They brought with them knowledge and information that the Roman Catholic Church had for centuries tried to suppress. The invention of the printing press meant that all this information could be rapidly disseminated. If the established church could be wrong about one thing it could wrong about others - that was the view that fired the "Reformations" in Europe, the "Rennaissence" fired the Protestant reformation not the other way about.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Slag
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:43 AM

Stiggy the Cookieless writes:

"' It would astound me if our present version of what we call "democracy" was the finest possible social system people can attain to."

Because it isn't - "democracy" has become interchangeable with "capitalism" and along with laissez-faire (sic) economic policies have created a society of astounding inequality (I would suggest you could call this Western Capitalism as practiced in the US, Canada, Australia and UK)."


Wrong! It isn't a democracy and it isn't necessarily capitalism. It is (in the US at any rate) a republic with quasi-democratically elected representatives. Capitalism can happen under most forms of government, e.g. The Peoples Republic of China.

TheSnail! and !! and !!! I wouldn't WANT the job or the responsibility or the publicity! And who is to ultimately say that I am right? If anything I would tend to place myself more in the camp of the self-indulgent. Or perhaps Qoheleth or John the Baptist, the voice in the wilderness. The great thing about freedom of speech in general and this forum in particular is that you can voice your ideas and beliefs and the MORE information that Folks have, the more apt they are to choose a correct, or at least better path. Read again what I wrote. It is all CONCERNED, all INFORMED and all who CARE, who ought to be deciding what direction to go that is the best chance we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:45 AM

I think your timing's a bit out there Teribus. Constantinople fell in 1453, by which time the European Renaissance had been under way at least half a century- indeed Brunelleschi was already dead. The initial impetus is more usually credited to the rediscovery of ancient works preserved (usually in Arabic) in Muslim Spain. The looting of Byzantium by the Venetians during the Fourth Crusade probably brought a lot of manuscripts to Italy, but if so they had little immediate effect- unless they were part of the inspiration of the little "renaissance" of the early 13th century, exemplified by Roger Bacon and the Spiritual Franciscans, and suppressed by the Church from mid- century onwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:34 AM

Slag

I wouldn't WANT the job or the responsibility or the publicity!

But the people who do want the job or the responsibility or the publicity are precisely the people who shouldn't be allowed to have it.

It is all CONCERNED, all INFORMED and all who CARE, who ought to be deciding what direction to go that is the best chance we have.

How are those people selected? What gives them their authority?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM

"How are those people selected?"

By the power of money.

"What gives them their authority?"

The power of money.


The same was basically true in ancient Rome too, since wars could not be fought nor power successfully maintained without a ready and adequate supply of money to fund it.

On some occasions, of course, no amount of money could prevent a disaster occurring, as happened to Crassus...the richest man in the world at the time. He recklessly led a Roman army far into Parthia, got attacked by a huge force of Parthian horse archers and heavy cavalry. They first wiped out the relatively small contingent of Roman cavalry in a surprise attack. They then decimated he Roman foot soldiers by showering them with arrows, while the Roman formations were unable to counterattack effectively on foot against the swift Parthian cavalry. Crassus ordered his men to form "the turtle", a formation of interlocking shields which protected infantry from arrows. This rendered the formations unable to protect themselves properly from direct assaults by the Parthian heavy cavalry. The Roman force was annihilated, and Crassus was captured. Since he was famous for being the richest man in the world, the Parthians decided to dispatch him by pouring molten gold down his throat...a very nasty death!

Sometimes money just isn't enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:49 PM

The "power of money" is symptomatic. Money is a token of credibility and confidence. It becomes an obsession when the individual power to generate confidence and belief gets broken down, when his certainty of his own or her own power to generate new connections gets undermined. SOmetimes this comes about by pure physical overwhelm. THe problem is, of course, once one apple in the barrel goes rotten, the rest tend to follow suit to various degrees, and groups engage in a mass copy-fest of poor attitudes and low ethics. An example is the sweep of Republican war-centric beliefs durign the rampup to the Iraq invasion.

So it is not just about money, but also individual strength and ability to communicate and confidence.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:04 PM

Little Hawk

"How are those people selected?"

By the power of money.

"What gives them their authority?"

The power of money.

I don't think (although I'm not sure) that that is what Slag had in mind but it probably would be the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we heading for a new dark age?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:13 PM

What makes me think so--that we're heading for a new Dark Age--is the effect that multinationals have on the economies of individual countries and subsequently the people of those countries. People are once again becoming commodities that we trade. (Here, you take two battalions of these troops and we will take x amount of your export market.

We seem to have less and less feeling for people and more for things. If that ain't 'Dark', what is?