BS: Shannon found- alive!

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:52 AM

"The media called the family "Working Class" well believe me, NONE of the family work, without exception. Unless you call living of Incapacity Benefit or Disability Living Allowance and scrounging of the Welfare State working"

Yorkie, your comments are grossly offensive. What do you know about the lives these people lead? My wife works amongst them, teaching parents who want to become classroom assistants, and there is a real desire for self-improvement and a pride in what they do. What these people need is a chance, not snide remarks from a smug, self-satisfied prig like you.

I suggest you read this.

ttp://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/03/19/shameless-to-sneer-at-shannon-s-family-89520-20355532/

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Yorkie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:19 AM

theleveller, maybe they could become classroom assistants and teach kids how to mix cider, Redbull and lager ? and maybe you could open both eyes and live in reality once in a while.

What's a prig ?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:21 AM

Yorkie, The Penguin English Dictionary defines a prig as

'one who is sure of his moral superiority to others and quick to condemn them; conceited pedant'

Hope that helps.......

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:26 AM

Seems spot on in this case. There are other words which would fit as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Yorkie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:59 AM

Thanks Emma. So why doesn't McGrath of Harlow use it as his handle ?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:13 AM

"What's a prig ?"

As I anticipated, your ignorance knows no limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:49 AM

What has the family's position on the 'social scale', or their attitude to work, their appetite for alcohol, or the mother's appetite for sex got to do with anything?

The thread is about a child, repeat CHILD, who disappeared for three weeks, and was found alive and well, thank God.

The police and social services will get to the bottom of what happened to her and, hopefully, she will recover from the ordeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:07 AM

theleveller is clearly the type that allows children to live under such conditions as their "Do gooder" attitude shows. It makes me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:27 AM

I'm not a 'type', my anonymous friend. Nor is it up to me how other people live. If by 'do-gooder' you mean someone who, in the course of their job, tries to improve people's lives and help them fulfill their potential, then 'yes', my wife does that. You and Yorkie condemn people for the lives they are forced to lead, then condemn them for wanting to better themselves - you make me sick, you nasty crew. What have you ever done to help anyone except yourselves? I wonder from your ignorant comments if you even have the brains to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:33 AM

The Leveller's comments are usually considered and rational, and well rooted, as his handle shows, in an ancient and necessary UK political tradition. When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

MacGrath, however, is consistently one of the best informed and most constructive Mudcat posters.

Anyone who wants to produce an cheap sneer at the two together really does need to engage brain before putting mouth in gear.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:51 AM

Thanks for your support, Richard. You opinions carry great gravitas.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:10 PM

Oh come on Richard, if anyone has crossed swords here with these guys it's you.

I have always enjoy reading your comments, but this one is a little below par.

"The Leveller's comments are usually considered and rational"

Oh come on, he usually tries to explain away his embarrassing words as mere "expressions". your post comes across as pandering.

Yes there is a fleeting enthusiasm in some of his comments, but really who could agree with everything he says.

Yet he has his defenders do their best to ignore the facts of this case. The subject of the thread is the wonderful news that the child has been found alive, but personally I do not think she should be returned to the situation which I saw on television on Monday night.


Would I say The Levellers comments here are rational ?

Sorry no Richard, not in this case.

I agree MacGrath is consistent and on occasion he can be reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:33 PM

Gigi, I have had disagreements with many. Happily there are few with whom I have allegorically crossed swords. Mostly they fall into three categories: -

1. Horse definitioners
2. Inverted snobs
3. Fascist bastards (including those who apply the fasces to the cause of sexual repression)

The Leveller has a point of view, but I don't think he would assert that there is NO truth save in the underclass.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:24 PM

I'm sorry, guest, I simply don't follow your argument. What embarrassing words do I explain away as expressions? Every post I make is an expression - of my beliefs. I love to 'cross swords' with people if they have intelligent, rational (sometimes even irrationa)and heartfelt opinions but you just talk shit; in which case, the best response is a metaphorical slap. As I once pointed out, my rhetorical skills were first honed in the dockland pubs of Hull and I still have the scars on my knuckles to prove it (Ah, happy days!).

Richard, I wouldn't assert that there is no truth save in an underclass but, then, I don't believe there is an underclass - merely a downtrodden class. Their faces may be in the gutter but a great many are looking up at the stars.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:35 PM

Richard - Do you mean sexual repression or sexist oppression?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:34 PM

Oh my God another guy with a blanket over his head concerning leeches.

Leveller (the self appointed saint of mudcat), Do you never ask yourself when are the politicians going to get a grip on our benefits system?

They have created this madness where people like these can have as many children as they like and not go out to work, and then claim – quite rightly – that they would be poorer if they did. This woman had even children to six different guys.

One solution would be to put a belt around their ankles.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:07 PM

What's the matter Gigi, not getting any? It seems you can't count so if you can get anyone to screw you, better not use the rhythm method. Maybe you should try to bring up children on benefits before you call it the easy option.

Leveller, you are not using the expression "underclass" correctly. I don't mean the bottom rank of the working class. I don't mean those who are excluded from working by some or other part of the system. I mean those whose position and economy is anathema to the values of society.

I know a number. If they eat goose it is swan. They earn - here and there - by ducking and diving. Property is theft - or at least theirs is (save as far as those they know). By and large they do not claim benefits (some do) often because they have no fixed abode. Some are dealers, some informers. They eat by the longbow or crossbow. Arson is met with arson. They have no capitalist aspiration or puritan work ethic. They are not part of "society" as we know it. Some are my friends.

To borrow the words of Tom Robinson "I'm a middle class kiddy, but I knwo where I stand"

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:31 PM

Get your head out of the clouds Richard. Are you saying it is fine to steal money from the government ? Listen benefit thief does go on and if anyone is in receipt of someone making false claims it is their moral right to report them.

Too many these days decide to opt out and enjoy a wealth of benefits including Housing benefit, Mobility car and Incapacity benefit when they are fit to work but choose not to.

Clearly we are people with differing values.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:50 PM

Social security fraud costs the UK taxpayer up to £4 billion a year.
The level of fraud is unacceptably high and something must be done to weed out fraudulent housing benefit claims.

£4 billion is much too high but that is only 3% of what is given to people in social benefits.I believe fraud is theft of money which many people who are sick and disabled really need.

Do you know you can get housing benefit without a national insurance number ?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:09 PM

'Tax avoidance by UK's super-rich 'worth £13bn'

'Tax avoidance by the super-rich costs the British taxpayer £13bn a year - enough money to increase old-age pensions by 20 per cent.'

The Observer, Sunday January 27 2008

Some reports put it higher....

'HMRC say tax avoidance could be costing every household more than £1,500 a year
In a document published late on budget day with no publicity, HMRC has said that the cost of tax avoidance in the UK could run as high as £40 billion a year. This tax avoidance could cost every household in the UK more than £1,500.

The HMRC admission, contained in the report 'Measuring the tax gap - an update', estimates that in 2005 tax avoidance was between £10b and £40b. This figure is even higher than the £25 billion a year estimated by the TUC in it's 'Missing Billions' report'

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:15 PM

Tax evasion illegal, tax avoidance, legal.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM

a wealth of benefits - now that's a phrase to ponder on.

The benefit system at times is so complicated that the only way to avoid desperate poverty traps can be to bend the rules. For example if someone on benefit gets a few days work and informs the benefit agency of this the result can be that, when the temporary work is gone, they may have to wait for many weeks before benefits are restored. The effect is to push people into fiddling the system, or to discourage them from making any effort to get back into working. Either way they are liable to be seen as scroungers.

This is thread drift - but clearly there is an appalling lack of knowledge about how the system actually works on the part of some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:01 PM

Emma, at least they worked to earn it. McG, stop splitting hairs. You know there are families who will never work and produce second generation scroungers.

All they are is human rats. Anyway I have made it my business on more than one occasion to telephone the Social Security office to inform them of someone either making a false claim for incapacity benefit, living with a partner while claiming single parent housing benefit or working and claiming unemployment benefit.

I have a contact I keep in touch with who has informed me of several successful prosecutions or suspension of benefits of those I reported.

It's your duty man.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:26 PM

You know there are families who will never work and produce second generation scroungers. Of course. Typically people with a lot of money who avoid paying taxes by employing crooked accountants to work out clever ways of cheating.

They aren't the only ones - but sorting out the rich cheats should be the priority. That;s where the big money is being stolen.

I take it "Guest, Guest" is not the same as "Guest, guest".

Have you seen that vigilante man?
Have you seen that vigilante man?
Have you seen that vigilante man?
I been hearin' his name all over the land.

Nasty people, vigilantes...

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:30 PM

Now where I did hear people described as 'human rats' before?

Oh yes........ I remember

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:37 PM

Keep flying your red flag comrade.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:46 PM

That one the same as "Guest, Guest", or the same as the American "Guest, guest"? I suspect it's the former. Silly game to play.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:06 PM

Oh, you're not Gigi or GiGi, sort of UgUg?

Proud to be part of the secret police? Can you find Romania on the map?

Why don't you try surviving on benefits before you say it's easy? I know of one chap, disabled (yes, he really is, close to wheelchairbound) who despite an upper second in Philosophy seems unable to balance his budgets. I sort of get a feeling you might not have a dgree in philosophy, Uggie. You certainly don't seem to have read the facts about underclass survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:08 PM

It just came to me! I know where I've seen that ranting before, Uggie! You're David Hannam with a new handle, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:43 AM

Richard, sorry for the misunderstanding - I appreciate your definition of 'underclass'.

And to those who have such a 'downer' on them let me say this:

How we see things and judge people is, of course, influenced by our inbuilt prejudices.

For instance, if I talk about a bunch of drunken, abusive layabouts who don't work, take drugs and smash up bars and clubs, who do you think I mean? A gang of chavs from a sink estate? Or some over-privileged sloanies from wealthy, titled or even royal families on a typical evening out?

Think carefully before you answer – you will be exposing your prejudices.

This was brought home to me the other evening on the train back from work. The only seat was opposite a young lad of around 16 or 17 in full chav gear, slugging lager and with his feet on the seat. I told him to move his feet so I could sit down and after giving me an 'old fashioned' look, he did. As the train started, he pulled out a fag and started to light it. I told him to put it away and, after giving me a load of abuse, he saw I meant business and put it behind his ear. A little later he pulled out a pack of syringe needles and started to push them into himself, first his hands, then his thigh, then his cheeks. People on the train were getting a little upset at this stage so I leaned over to the lad, put my hand on his shoulder and quietly asked him if he was OK. He looked up at me and there were tears in his eyes and he explained that he got very stressed and pain of the needles helped him to relax. So, what I first thought was just a lout who should be locked up, turned out to be a very disturbed young man who desperately needed help. I see him on the train from time to time and he comes up and has a chat to me. He's not a bad lad, just one with big problems that he finds hard to deal with – and the only help he'd received was a pack of sterile needles.

Oh, and if you think living on benefits is easy, just you try bringing up a family of four on £86 a week, or whatever it is these days.

And, guest, if you think I'm a saint. what the f**k does that make you?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:20 AM

"he saw I meant business" Wow, we are dealing with a tough nut here chaps. Handbags at twelve paces.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Harris Glenn Milstead
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:35 AM

Hi Richard my old friend hope all is well. Have a wonderful Easter.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:33 AM

"Wow, we are dealing with a tough nut here chaps. Handbags at twelve paces. "

Hmmm. I'm afraid it's the way I look - think Uncle Fester with scars. Actually, I'm a pussy cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM

'I think there is much more here than we have been told. This family are going to be rewarded by magazines, sleazy tabloids, worldwide tv interviews, morning telly, Richard and Judy... need I go on?'


well I was wondering this too.


Sal (not spending all night infront of the pc)

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:30 PM

'I think there is much more here than we have been told. This family are going to be rewarded by magazines, sleazy tabloids, worldwide tv interviews, morning telly, Richard and Judy... need I go on?'

Oh, so it's perfectly OK for so-called celebrities to get a fortune to talk about their sordid, drug-addled lives but not for a woman without a penny to scratch her arse to take advantage of what's being offered and maybe give herself and her family a bit of a treat for once in their lives.

Talk about double standards!

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:57 PM

"'I think there is much more here than we have been told." There is always more than we have told and time the press gets into gear.

Even when we appear to have been told an awful lot, there is virtually always a process of selection and editing going on to make the story fit into a predetermined shape.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM

The stepfather of Shannon Matthews, who was missing for three weeks, has been remanded in custody over charges of possessing indecent images of children.

Craig Meehan, 22, of Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, was arrested at the family home on Wednesday and appeared before the town's magistrates on Thursday.

After her partner's arrest, Shannon's mother, Karen Matthews, was allowed a meeting with her daughter, although the schoolgirl remains in the care of Kirklees Social Services.

So do you still think she would be better living at home ?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

That's a decision for a court to make guest.

I recently spent some time with a younger friend who had been brought up in foster care after her father abandoned the family and her mother couldn't cope.
I know what her answer would be - but each case is different.

Remember that Shannon is currently in the care of the local authority with her mother's permission who hasn't been charged with any offence as far as I'm aware.

These decisions are not easy or taken lightly as past posts on 'evil social workers who remove children from families' will demonstrate - 'damned if you do, damned if you don't!'

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 02:08 PM

Good thoughts, Emma B. It's nice to hear from someone who has a little warmth in her heart for Shannon as a person and a child.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 03:38 PM

"I know what her answer would be "
Why is it better to live in a home environment despite the circumstances ?

She is better in care than living with a family of half wits.

Tell me honesty, would you allow your child to stay in that house with that family for a weekend ?

Honest answer please.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 07:06 PM

My late wife Jacqui was a social worker. Every time you take a kid into care you do damage. The question is whether that is more damage than the damage probably/possibly done by leaving the kid at home.

Part of the trouble with deciding is that "indecent images of children" is such a wide net. A boy of 2, a girl of 15, a boy of 15 getting lucky (I'd have prayed for that at the age of 15) or even in some US states a person under 18 or I think 21. And in any event does not prove a likely threat of interference with Shannon (although I had my suspicions from some time ago that Shannon might have been being resued rahter than abducted).

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 03:44 AM

My thoughts entirely, Richard. My beloved commented when the news of Shannon's finding broke : 'We're only getting half a story, there'.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:19 AM

"So do you still think she would be better living at home?"

As usual, you're judging the issue based on your own ill-informed prejudices and sensational headlines in the papers.

Surely, the decision should rest on whether her stepfather, or any other family member, has abused Sharron in the past and whether he is likely to do so in the future. As I can't answer either of these, I'll let those who are better informed make the decision. Perhaps you should do the same and stop spouting your vitriolic crap.

Oh, and GG, when did you stop beating your wife/husband?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:17 AM

It has just been announced that the police have arrested two women in connection with this case. One for assisting an offender and another for perverting the course of justice. This plot thickens by the day!

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 12:32 PM

Another sensible comment by "theleveller" poor soul. Seems a troubled person, more to be pitied than laughed at.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 01:33 PM

Benefit scroungers the lot of them. Not a single member of the family circle work for a living.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 02:34 PM

Guest, not only are you anonymous but you are as uncouth as you are ill informed and bigoted.

' While between 10 and 15 per cent of Moorside's working-age population lives on sickness benefit, most of its families contain a worker.

The problem is pay, which is often around the minimum wage.'

in addition ...

'Moorside is no longer an exclusively council-owned estate. You can tell the privately owned houses by their new grey roofs. A basic house with three bedrooms costs about £90,000, while one that's been modernised and had an extension put in is nearer the £120,000 mark'

Lynsey Hanley, author of a study of council housing, Estates: An Intimate History, states....

"The real problem is segregation - the farming out of the poorest families to estates on the outskirts of towns, often badly served by transport and shops. The 'right to buy' scheme of the Eighties removed many of the more affluent families in council areas as they sold up and moved on.

''Council estates became places of last resort for people who had failed to keep up. They have been given this label of the 'underclass'. They are treated as worthless and begin to act like worthless people, so you get domestic violence, alcohol abuse and family breakdown.

"It was a shock to the media that Shannon's step-father worked. In fact, most people on these estates work; it's just that they are very badly paid. The idea that people choose to live these lives, choose to live on benefits and would in any circumstances, is ridiculous. Of course they would change their lives if they could."

The above is quoted from The Telegraph not usually known for 'left-wing' sentiments.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 04:44 AM

Emma, Living off benefits is now a profession. You really need to open your eyes. We live in a work shy society and if a girl decides to get pregnant at 17 and keepthe child and then get a council house and raise a squad of kids to different fathers, why should I have to pay to support her ?

If someone chooses to put on an act to their GP and benefits assessor (if one bothers to come out) and lives off D.L.A. and Incapacity benefit instead of seeking a job, why should I have to pay for it.

D.L.A. and a free Mobility car are the goals of many leeches.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 05:45 AM

'... I think there is much more here than we have been told. This family are going to be rewarded by magazines, sleazy tabloids, worldwide tv interviews, morning telly, Richard and Judy; need I go on?...'

There's more to this than meets the eye. News is coming out all the time about this case. Tabloids love to eek it out just to keep the interest going and newpaper sales.

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 06:41 AM

Totally misinformed, as usual, GG. You know nothing of these people and how they live, so your comments don't merit a response.

Why are you such a sad and bitter person; what has happened in your life to make you so unpleasant? Have you thought about seeking professional help - it's available on the NHS, if you can bear the thought of other people's taxes paying for it. I, for one, would not begrudge it as they may be able to stop your constant vomiting up of noxious bile and make you a happier person.

On the other hand, it would deprive us all of a good laugh!