BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:14 PM

Amos and all others: Please observe the Copy and Paste suggestions in the FAQ. The political threads are especially bad right now. A tiny snip and your personal comments with the link only please.

Huffington Post:

Obama Offers a Progressive Vision of Patriotism
By Drew Westen, Huffington Post. Posted March 21, 2008.

Obama's brilliant discussion of race, class and patriotism shows substance unlike any politician in recent history.

I watched Barack Obama's speech Tuesday morning intently. The "pre-game show" of cable commentators predicted a somewhat grim outcome. What could Obama say that could possibly overcome his association with the words of his pastor, Jeremiah Wright? Would he throw his pastor on the train tracks? And even if he did, would he still suffer from guilt by association?

But then, for 45 minutes, I saw a man who for days had appeared somewhat at sea, buffeted by waves that relentlessly pushed him off course, seem to find his compass and chart a course directly into the eye of the storm. I saw a man with the inner confidence, and the steadiness of a captain who knew he was sailing on uncharted waters but needed to go there anyway, take the nation with him and land them safely on the shore.

The pundits were clearly stunned. They knew they had witnessed something extraordinary, a moment when time seemed to stand still and a politician in the midst of a withering electoral storm did the unspeakable: he spoke the truth. The unspoken, unspeakable truth. He told the nation that he understood what was happening in white barber shops and black barber shops, around white water coolers and black water coolers, and that we are neither free from our prejudices nor merely prejudiced in our respective grievances, and that in both our prejudices and our grievances, we have more in common than we know.

With the exception of commentators who pride themselves on their bigotry, the speech drew immediate, nearly universal acclaim, and I suspect that its lasting impact will mirror its initial impact. But as the great French sociologist Emil Durkheim described it, we live our lives in the realm of the profane, punctuated by moments of sanctity, only to return again to everyday life. And by nightfall, as I listened to reports of the speech on television, many of the talking heads had returned to the realm of the literal, the crass, and the profane: Did he distance himself enough from Reverend Wright? Did he condemn his former pastor enough to reassure white voters?

But the speech wasn't about Reverend Wright, even though the controversy surrounding pieces of his sermons was the impetus for it. Obama delivered a message that spoke to the conflicts and contradictions around race that have existed since the earliest days of this nation, and he delivered it in a personal way that spoke to his own history and his own complex response to his pastor's messages over many years. The speech brought to mind a passage written by the psychoanalyst Erik Erikson a half century ago in his psychobiography of Martin Luther, which could just as easily have been written last night. Erikson was describing that ineffable quality we call charisma, and the way an individual life history sometimes converges with the historical moment: "Now and again," Erikson wrote, "an individual is called upon (called upon by whom, only theologians claim to know, and by what only bad psychologists)," to lift his personal conflicts to the level of cultural conflicts, "and to try to solve for all what he could not solve for himself alone."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:18 PM

Last night I watched a speech that Senator Obama made yesterday at a university in Massachusetts (?). It was a good one and well received. I was glad to see that he discussed McCain's positions far more than he did Senator Clinton's.

I think it's time for both Clinton and Obama to do that. Let us see what options we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:35 PM

I agree, Ebbie. And if they don't, they are simply doing McCain's campaigning for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: DougR
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:32 AM

Obama is slicker than slick Willie. I don't think he will slide into the White House, however.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:36 AM

DougR:

Your defamation is -- IMHO -- an indication of your jaded fixed thinking; it is not up to simple recognition of a human being.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 07:57 AM

Wouldn't you agree, Doug, that we should never feel that because we disagree with someone's politics we should feel it necessary to despise them? Or conversely that just because we agree with someone's politics we should feel it necessary to admire them.

Maybe it would be interesting to have a thread in which we could list people we disagree with and admire, and people we agree with and despise.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:58 AM

Play nice, Dougie...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:14 PM

I knew Republican smear campaigners would use that 'Slick Willie' smear on Obama. To such people, if you're a Republican and you give good speeches, you're a great speaker (the Republican perception of Reagan, for instance). If you're a Democrat and you give good speeches, you're 'slick'. Smear tactics are slimy. People who use smear tactics are slimy.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:27 PM

Perhaps, Doug, you're not used to hearing a political figure who actually believes in something--other than figments of his own imaginations like "Evil Empires" and "welfare Cadillacs".

And who talks about issues in something above a bumper sticker approach. Sorry if it's too hard for you to grasp. Though that's not surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Hold On!!!
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:29 PM

Click for Barack

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:31 PM

Amos isn't going to tolerate anyone who doesn't shout Obama's praises from the rooftops, DougR-but you knew that;-)

Drew Western's article is the kind of after-the-fact political spin that would have offended Amos if it was about anyone but Obama-

The sad fact is, Obama failed to put the problem behind him, as evidenced by the fact that people are still talking about Wright, and showing those wonderful clips five days after Obama was supposed to put the issue to rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:35 PM

GUEST,Eyes on the Prize, here's that hyperlink:

http://ky.barackobama.com/KYmorevoicesvideo

-snip-

The video is about Barack Obama's community work in Chicago with Project Vote. That community project to register new voters occcurred just after Obama had graduated from Harvard's Law school.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:50 PM

Geeziz..............Sorry Doug. I don't agree with you myself but considering some of the other things said about Clinton and McCain around here I felt you were just throwing in the easy jab, perhaps even from a humrous angle????

Maybe someone could tell me how Doug's post was nasty and rude and all??????


Spaw---NASCAR Voter

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:55 PM

M. Ted--

You show your own naivete. Of course "people" will still show that video. It's in their interest to do so---and they would have continued to do it no matter what Obama said, as I think you actually know.

And if there are people who now say they will not vote for Obama, there are also people who say he has won them over as a result of that speech.

If Obama has made an error, it seems to me, as I said before, that the error is neglecting to broadcast the examples of inclusive Christianity given other times by Wright--giving the lie to the widespread slander that sitting in that church was listening to 20 years of anti-American and anti-white diatribes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:03 PM

I think it would be wise to flood the internet with the most compassionate clips of Wright they could find.

M. Ted, I tolerate all kinds of people with all kids of perspectives. I do not like slanted, bitter jabs, covertly destructive remarks (even when mine) or irational assertions designed to manipulate people into shared bitterness.

Obama is not a perfect human being. But he is head and shoulders abetter human being than any of the other contenders on either side of the division.


ANd I think it is about time we had a better human being in charge.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:09 PM

I'm not an Obama supporter, but I just hate it when people try to dumb down political discourse by calling intelligent speech making 'slick'. And I hate smear politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:12 PM

BTW, I'm not even a Democrat. I'm one of the independent voters (not Independent Party, but independent as in 'unafilliated') who votes my conscience rather than by party affiliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:13 PM

Doug is like a rabbit on a firing range here, Spaw. Every time he sticks his fuzzy little conservative little out of his hole, wiggles his nose, and takes a look around, all hell breaks loose as a battalion of sneering Elmer Fudds take aim with every weapon at their disposal and blast away. ;-) It's like the first scene in "Saving Private Ryan". LOL!

This place needs a few isolated individuals like Doug, just so the mainstream here have someone to vent their inner rage upon. He gives us the catharsis we all secretly yearn for. That's my theory.

I thought Obama's speech was wonderful. The man truly impresses me. He's one of the very few politicians I've heard who seems to actually think about things deeply rather than just utter predictable slogans, and one of the very few who talks to an audience of Americans as if he were talking to mature adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:27 PM

DougR's not a conservative, LH. He's a radical.   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:36 PM

>Perhaps I haven't been listening hard enough or to the right things, but there doesn't seem to be much if anything in Rev Wright's preaching that sounds like racism. At any rate none of the picked up in those articles bruce cut and pasted would qualify.<

You can name it race baiting if you prefer, but telling your parishioners that the Federal government is using manufactured biological weapons to kill you (if you are a person of color) is a tad . . . what's the best word?

Looney?

(Barack addressed a near-impossible conundrum.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:53 PM

Very few rabbits pop their heads up to intentionally draw fire.

>>>Doug is like a rabbit on a firing range here, Spaw. Every time he sticks his fuzzy little conservative little out of his hole, wiggles his nose, and takes a look around, all hell breaks loose as a battalion of sneering Elmer Fudds take aim with every weapon at their disposal and blast away. ;-)<<<

If the rabbit were just looking around, I might agree with you. But no, he is throwing stink bombs and trying to draw attack.

I don't see the people who respond as Elmer Fudds any more than I would elevate Doug's tactics to the giddy rhetorical heights of Bugs Bunnydom.

DougR is afflicted with that all too common Internet syndrome I call Assburglar's, that is he steals lines from the Asses on talk radio and tosses them into Internet discussions as if they were his own.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:55 PM

Actually Carol, Doug is over on the side of "Reactionary" which loosely means an Ultra Conservative.........Were he a bit moreso he would be very close to the same positions held by "Radicals" who might be thought of as Ultra Liberal. Both hold many very similar beliefs but they arrived there through different means.

I agree with you Hawk and I think Doug needs an award sometimes around here for not completely flying off the handle {;<))

Spaw---NASCAR Voter

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM

I don't know, catspaw. He supports the NeoCons and they're radicals who got to where they are by first being Socialists.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:01 PM

"Very few rabbits pop their heads up to intentionally draw fire."

Bugs Bunny does! And that's who I'm comparing Doug to. He just can't resist popping his head up...and people just can't resist opening fire when he does.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:01 PM

Correction: I aaid above that Obama had spoken in Massachusetts the other night- it, of course, was at the University of West Virginia.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:27 PM

Spawzer, given the general tenor of conservative epithets about Clinton, such as "slick willy: with iits crude sexual overtones, it should be plain that the invidious parallel Douggielad decided to draw with Obama was intended as defamatory, as well as being unintentionally delusory.


In case there is some question about what Obama actually stands for, here's a brief excerpt from his Convention Center Speech:

"This was one of the tasks we set forth at the beginning of this campaign Ð to continue the long march of those who came before us, a march for a more just, more equal, more free, more caring and more prosperous America. I chose to run for the presidency at this moment in history because I believe deeply that we cannot solve the challenges of our time unless we solve them together Ð unless we perfect our union by understanding that we may have different stories, but we hold common hopes; that we may not look the same and we may not have come from the same place, but we all want to move in the same direction Ð towards a better future for our children and our grandchildren.

This belief comes from my unyielding faith in the decency and generosity of the American people. But it also comes from my own American story....".

I'd like to know what it is about this platform that Doug R thinks deserves ridicule.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 02:55 PM

Hawk,

To paraphrase a politician.

I know Bugs Bunny and DougR is no Bugs Bunny. Bugs didn't steal his lines from Limbaugh, Hannity and O'Reilly.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:02 PM

Heh... now that I think about it, I think DougR is a bit of a pinko himself. He supports big government. He used to work for the government, so he got his living paid for by the taxpayers. If he got his excellent health insurance from a government job, even his health care is paid for by the taxpayers. Yup. Sounds like a socialist to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM

Well, Jack, he's not as slick as Bugs Bunny, I'll admit that. Nothing sticks to that wabbit.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:15 PM

These clips give some perspective on the Rev Wright clips.

Rev Wright

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: meself
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:32 PM

Um, people: ... don't you think you're getting a little carried away in your response to one snide, obviously partisan, remark?

I'm just sayin' ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:34 PM

... can't we all just get along

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:42 PM

DougR has a healthy sense of humor, which is pretty much required of anyone who contributes *anything* to Mudcat--

And anyway, if you call Bush "Shrub", and Nixon "Tricky Dick", you've got no business objecting to "Slick Willy"--


And I'm not naive, Ron Davies, I know that people will show the video as long as they think that they can get mileage out of it--Obama needs to be able to let the air out of the tires of any issue that gets ahead of him on the road to the White House--

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:43 PM

DougR likes it when we play rough. He told me so himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

A certain measure of goodwill, combined with a sense of humour (about both oneself and others), is pretty vital to maintaining a reasonable political discussion around here...or probably anywhere. It keeps things from turning just downright ugly.

I expect a certain amount of duplicity from all political candidates. Their job requires it. I don't expect whoever I'm backing to be perfect. Such expectations would be unrealistic.

Obama ain't perfect...but as they go, he's a lot more impressive than most.

Now take my guy Chongo. FAR from perfect! But, hey, that's part of his simian charm. Chongo makes no apologies for being what he is, but he won't let you down in a jam.

I don't think Obama will let you down in a jam either. We'll see...if he gets elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: heric
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:10 PM

>I don't think Obama will let you down in a jam either.<

That's what I'm thinking. Everything will be all fucked up under any scenario, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:37 PM

These clips give some perspective on the Rev Wright clips.

Wouldn't open for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:30 PM

"David Eisenhower teaches a class at the University of Pennsylvania on American political speeches. Senator Barack Obama, with his address last week on race and politics, gave him a new course.

"It was a very powerful speech," said Eisenhower, whose grandfather was president of the United States and supreme allied commander in World War II. "Obama gives a very compelling reason as to why this is his time."

(International Herald Tribune)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:40 PM

It works for me McGrath.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/231/story_23112_1.html?WT.mc_id=HOMELEAD2

Here is the url. Maybe you can go to Belief net and search on "Wright."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:41 PM

Eisenhower's granddaughter, Susan (a Republican), has endorsed Obama as well...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/01/AR2008020102621.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM

It looks like the L.A. Times is picking up on Obama's challenge to continue the discussion on race.

Check out the photo essay. What a huge and wonderful crowd!

LA Times on race.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 03:44 PM

Unfortunately the clips do not help the cause. What should be established is that Wright's church--and his attitude--was not anti-white or anti-American---and that therefore to extrapolate from a few outbursts to 20 years of sermons is not reasonable. There are clips which support this, but these are not they.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 12:52 AM

Even Peggy Newnan liked the speech!

The discussion on Meet the Press.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:29 AM

Maybe the good Reverend Wright should come out of hiding.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:38 AM

>>>
Maybe the good Reverend Wright should come out of hiding.<<<

What makes you think he is hiding?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 02:04 AM

My understanding is he is giving public sermons; what does he have to hide about. Those who know him and the context in which he spoke know what an empty wind the noise being raised around him is. He knows it, as well.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:13 AM

"Maybe the good Reverend Wright should come out of hiding."

                He can't. If he does he'll blow Obama's cover too!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:20 AM

If Wright has given "racist sermons" how come the clips picked out by Fox and suchlike to demonstrate that don't seem to show this?

There is nothing racist about denouncing the slave trade and segregation. Nothing racist about saying that America and that some of those help explain why there have been terrorist attacks on the USA. Nothing racist about reminding people of medical experiments which have been carried out on black people which have caused suffering and death. Nothing racist with using terms like "state terrorism" to refer to what has sometimes been done by governments.

Some of Wright's rhetoric has gone over the top, some of his accusations are shaky or just plain wrong - but that is not what accusations of "racism are about.

I've never thought making videos of sermons is a very good idea. Asking for trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:15 AM

Good point, McGrath--even the blandest religious doctrines and theologies have spawned bitter conflicts--if you put these ideas in a video, sooner or later, someone with a contrary view will see it, and all Hell will break loose--better to publish them in a book, where no one will ever see them--

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Defining Moment Speech
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:50 AM

Neither Obama nor Wright are in hiding, and this is just snide noise, Rig. And you know it full well.

Wright's passion, viewed in full context with the long history of other lectures and comapssionate acts he has produced over the years, would create a very different profile int he public mind. So the Clinton/Republican machinery of war has once again seriously damaged the repute of someone who deserved better.

Viewing things in context is nopt something Fox-heads do very well at all; their specialty is pushbutton reaction.

If we are to govern the nation on this principle,k we will be at war again and again, just as McCain projects. Perhaps it is time for a saner hand on the helm, don't you think? SOmeone who can assess the place of events in history and context without jumping like a frightened hare every time somethign creaks?


A